ZVWQP-9B8TM-VH9CT
Member
You are the one throwing allegations everywhere, if you can prove they condone piracy, why don't you enlighten us with the proof? I'm really curious to read your evidence.
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Topher
Gold Member
What is this need some here, like yourself, have to demonize emulation advocates who are explicitly against piracy?
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
I prefer complete gun banning but I know it's not going to happen
nkarafo
Member
Wanting something to be illegal doesn't make it so.
YeulEmeralda
Member
It's not as if Nintendo of all companies is suffering. Are they laying off people?
Topher
Gold Member
Not as of yet, but if they do, fingers will be pointed at emulation. As if that makes any sense at all.
reinking
Gold Member
Nintendo wants an emotionally charged argument that piracy is bad, therefore emulators are bad. Some of you seem to be falling in line with that. If this goes to court, emotion will be left out of it. I also fail to see what YUZU making money has anything to do with it other than Nintendo providing it as an example that some people are using the emulator illegally. Which does not necessarily make the emulator itself illegal. If people want to argue emulators are bad/illegal, they should stand by that regardless of financial support. Why would a free emulator be any more or less legal than one that makes money? Again, emotional reactions.
Sleepwalker
Member
I'm going to post this because I'm tired of this shitty strawman argument that no one dumps their games, here are all the games i have played on switch, PC and steam deck, along with my hacked v1 switch and the cartridge dumping tool.
Now we can, hopefully move onto the next strawman argument.
Puscifer
Member
LMFAO
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Building an emulator (as long as you are not selling it), is perfectly legal. Playing copyrighted games on said emulator though, is illegal. Thats the whole point of them being copyrighted. Some will make the argument that if you own it then you have the right to copy it. And that is true, copying something isn't illegal. Downloading/sharing copyrighted content though, is illegal. Unless you are getting that download directly from the owner of the copyright.
But building an emulator, that allows you to potentially use copyrighted software on a different platform without the explicit permission of the platform holder, is illegal, and its a fight you will always lose in court if the owner of said copyrighted material decides to do something about it.
If any of this shit was perfectly legal, and there is no copyright law about having an emulator that allows you to play the games of another platform on a different platform "as long as you own the game", then nothing at all would stop Sony or MS from making a switch emulator on their consoles. Or MS from making a PS emulator on their own consoles. Or isn't that the exact same thing?
graywolf323
Member
that’s not even remotely true or emulators would have been shut down a LONG time ago
do you think Yuzu is somehow the very first to do something like this?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
And do you think this is the first time something like yuzu is being taken to court or issued cease and desist orders?that’s not even remotely true or emulators would have been shut down a LONG time ago
I can't even believe what we are talking about here. I am not saying everyone who does this is a pirate. Or that people are not within their right to copy what they have paid their money for and use however they see fit.
But this is just one of those unique things, that while you may be right to do something, it doesn't make it legal.
There are copyright laws for a reason. And I am really not going to start explaining what or how those work. I have and use Yuzu on my PC, and I am just honest enough to speak on this cause I know how I use it and what I use it for. I do not have a switch personally, bought one for someone else, and I buy full-price games for him (he's just a kid), but that in my mind gives me the right to copy said games and play them for myself on my PC. Is what I am doing right? Yup. Is it legal... nope.
marquimvfs
Member
To sell an emulator is not illegal. It's been done since we have machines (consoles, pcs, mobile devices, etc) powerful enough to run the emulators. Nintendo themselves are doing it right now. The problem here is that a company (Nintendo) is trying to keep total control over who's doing an emulator. If is not them, then they label it piracy, but the law is against them in this matter since the dawn of emulation.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Errr, show me a single time an emulator has been legally sold. They played games that hadn't exceeded their copyright lean.
Wow... so Nintendo is at fault for trying to protect their copyrighted content? And how that content is used? Really?
Ok, I see whats happening here... I am gonna bow out of this one.
th4tguy
Member
Part of what Nintendo is claiming ( they have proof) is the yuzu devs are actively pirating leaked games to develop patches/ fixes for the emulator prior to those games official releases.
There is a lot of questionable stuff going on that Nintendo is addressing that isn’t specifically ”emulator bad”.
There is a lot of questionable stuff going on that Nintendo is addressing that isn’t specifically ”emulator bad”.
The Bleem! Discs on Dreamcast.
marquimvfs
Member
Maybe you're thinking only about gaming emulation. But there's emulator for almost every digital device you may know. You know that there's an official Palm emulator?
Now, following your line of thinking and talking strictly about gaming, go on enlightening yourself by studying the battle that Sony fought against ConnectiX VGS. Spoilers: they lost, but brought the company that made a paid Playstation emulator for MAC. That legal battle alone is the precedent that every emulator developer needs to rest assured.
There's also Bleem! They won the lawsuits (it was 3, I guess) but those made the company bleed money, eventually leaving the market. Those two examples alone are game emulators that were sold at the same time as the console was in the market, that were labeled as legal by the justice.
A more contemporary example would be the Analogue consoles, and, also, the mini consoles (all of them, not only the ones made by Sony and Nintendo). All of the Sega Mega Drive and Master Systems sold to this very day are emulation devices, and, guess what, the ones that takes cartridges are capable of playing countefeit cartridges, and they generate more money to the company that makes them than the 30k that Yuzu is making.
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jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
If this proof comes to light in court and is true, very damning for Yuzu and it's devs. But still wouldn't make all emulators illegal.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Errrr... sony made and sold that. Yes, they used the Rearmed open-source emulator in it, but guess what, sony owns the copyright to the software that runs on the emulator.Shit, want to know an even better one?
Again, making an open-source emulator is legal, playing ill-gotten copyrighted software on said emulator, is illegal.
Now if that software isnt open source, then whoever made it would be well within their right to take sony to court.
marquimvfs
Member
It's cool that you choose to reply to the weakest (but still valid) of the examples. Kudos to you.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
You got it …
…and the producer of the emulator has no control or responsibility for that under the law.
Using an emulator to play software you paid for, and a company getting their panties in a bunch is like you going to a gas station, paying for fuel, and using it in your snow blower but then having Exxon go “nooo!!! We only wanted that to be burned in a Ford F-150 from 2020-2024 model years!!”
Fuck off, I paid for it and will use it as I damn well please and I don’t care if someone else ripped off your gas station or put your gas in a Fiat. You sold me some goods and I’m using it I see fit.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
It's a lot harder to make the case for Dolphin. Emulation has held up in court many times. But cracking decryption schemes is a violation of the DMCA. Of course Yuzu doesn't really do this, it still requires someone else to decrypt the games and provide keys so it might not hold up either.
But for most, the threat of litigation is enough. It isn't worth it to defend themselves rather than pull up stakes.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
simply didnt have anything to say with regard to what you said. Do you want me to give you a thumbs-up or something? And I know about connectX.
If i buy a Mac, poison it and feed it to my noisy fucking neighbour, would the law hold McD responsible? Or would i be?
marquimvfs
Member
If you know about it, why the hell did you said that?
Topher
Gold Member
Think the debate on emulation legality has been put to bed by others so not going to repeat what was already said. I'd still like to know what the legal basis of your assertion that permission must be obtained. Nothing I've seen on this subject says anything like that.
nkarafo
Member
Source? Because the Bleem case proves you wrong.
They can, but they wont. Because:
1. These companies can barely create emulators for their own past systems. For years now they are struggling to make a single emulator that is as good as the homebrew ones.
2. There's no point in making an emulator for a competing system because they can't sell a game they don't have the right with it. Only when they have the right, like the recent Goldeneye remaster which was released on XBOX and it's basically a N64 game emulated.
3. There's no point in making an emulator for a competing system because why would they want to compete against their own software?
4. Companies would never release a standalone emulator, not even for their own systems. They only release games where the emulator is in the background. Why would they release an emulator, they don't have anything to gain.
No it's not, companies have tried it with other emulators in the past and they lost.
Correct. Playing ill-gotten copyrighted software on said emulator, on a computer, using a screen is illegal. But in that chain not the screen, or the computer, or the emulator are at fault. The fault is playing ill-gotten copyrighted software no matter where. Could be an emulator or a hacked device or a virtual machine or whatever. You can play cracked PC games on Windows without having to use STEAM or any other platform, should we ban Windows as well?
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Fabieter
Member
It demonstrates that some individuals argue in good faith while being hypocritical.
I said multiple times that it won't change a thing in court, you will keep your free games no worry
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Fabieter
Member
I'm going to post this because I'm tired of this shitty strawman argument that no one dumps their games, here are all the games i have played on switch, PC and steam deck, along with my hacked v1 switch and the cartridge dumping tool.
Now we can, hopefully move onto the next strawman argument.
Good for you but arguing that most people are legitimate users is a strawman argument in itself.
Fabieter
Member
Man I really hope Nintendo is paying you guys well for coming here and defending their honor.
I hope some of you guys work for charity and have no interest in making money.
nkarafo
Member
I think the mistake a lot Nintendo defenders do is that they can't separate the emulator from the retail games. They think of "Yuzu" and their brain automatically think "Zelda". Their brain fuse these two as one. Which is false of course.
Sony could make a N64 emulator if they wanted (as long as it doesn't have any Nintendo copyrighted code in it) and bundle it with free homebrew games and offer it for free on PS5. What they can't do is sell/offer retail/copyrighted N64 games with it. It's the games that are the illegal part, not the emulator.
I hope some of you make honest money and don't try to unethically bully whoever you see as competition to make even more.
Sony could make a N64 emulator if they wanted (as long as it doesn't have any Nintendo copyrighted code in it) and bundle it with free homebrew games and offer it for free on PS5. What they can't do is sell/offer retail/copyrighted N64 games with it. It's the games that are the illegal part, not the emulator.
I hope some of you make honest money and don't try to unethically bully whoever you see as competition to make even more.
nkarafo
Member
The problem is if Nintendo gets away with it, it's open season for all emulators and emudevs. Making a good emulator is already hard enough and this makes it harder and will also scare a lot of future emudevs from even trying because why would anyone try under the fear of a lawsuit? Also, no, 10 more emulators won't appear just like they didn't appear before this. They are not easy to make and there aren't unlimited talented emudevs around.
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Fabieter
Member
Let's say you're an entrepreneur with patents to protect your work. Then, some other individuals attempt to profit from your work without compensating you. Would you just say, "Forget it"? No one would.
nkarafo
Member
Of course i wouldn't let it fly and if i was honest i would go after whoever is at fault.
Emphasis to whoever is at fault.
Then again, if i was a billion dollar company, i would probably do the easy thing and bully the easiest target who isn't necessarily at fault but it's a means to an end, like Nintendo does now. I probably wouldn't give a shit, just like they don't. But that doesn't mean you should shill for me because you liked some games i made.
Fabieter
Member
I can agree with that. They should try to shut down all popular ROM sites.
MonkeyClaw36
Member
Nintendo fails to acknowledge that emulation I dont know, ehhhh, maybe HELPED SELL MORE UNITS???
It sure as Hell hasn't hurt them in hardware sales.
Nintendo is still as agressive as they were in the 80's. Back then they would blackmail store owners for more square feet of Nintendo product.
They scared retailers and threatened to pull their product from stores if the retailers would go on and sell the Megadrive.
It's not the family friendly company they advertise to be.
Fuck them. Glad I ditched the brand after the clusterfuck Wii-U.
I'll be playing Mario on my PC, just to annoy Nintendo, come at me bro!!
It sure as Hell hasn't hurt them in hardware sales.
Nintendo is still as agressive as they were in the 80's. Back then they would blackmail store owners for more square feet of Nintendo product.
They scared retailers and threatened to pull their product from stores if the retailers would go on and sell the Megadrive.
It's not the family friendly company they advertise to be.
Fuck them. Glad I ditched the brand after the clusterfuck Wii-U.
I'll be playing Mario on my PC, just to annoy Nintendo, come at me bro!!
They would have some kind of legal upper hand there...unlike this current situation, where they are just some fucking bullies.
Fabieter
Member
Some kind? That's not a discussion with roms provided on the internet.
I think its questionable that they take money for Yuzu tho.
Remember the Deck promo where valve showed a yuzu promt on the Deck. That's also questionable. But both are morally questionable yes.
I expect this to go nowhere, Sony tried this with Bleem! and ended up losing everytime.
Didn't Dolphin use the Wii private key in one of their builds?
Puscifer
Member
More than anything reading Bleem brought back memories I didn't even know I still had, holy shit!
I think dolphin did but then they didn't. My point of wonder at this point is largely regarding why wait until 2024 to sue them when it's been a thing for YEARS at this point.
nkarafo
Member
According to the emulation reddit, from users who are reading the lawsuit and taking it apart, the language Nintendo uses "assumes that if a company sets rules around how users use their products, those rules are the law".
This goes beyond Yuzu. It even goes beyond just emulation. It reaches software and intellectual property in general. So think about it before defending Nintendo in this. They don't do this because they want to "FiGHt PirACy". They do this because they want control. That's the ultimate goal for everything every publisher does.
This goes beyond Yuzu. It even goes beyond just emulation. It reaches software and intellectual property in general. So think about it before defending Nintendo in this. They don't do this because they want to "FiGHt PirACy". They do this because they want control. That's the ultimate goal for everything every publisher does.
Kenpachii
Member
There is no problem, emulators can be made and pushed on the dark side of the web like they used too with people that work on it being anomyously.
The whole emulator community is getting bolder and bolder with putting themselves on the front, asking subscriptions and donations and even tried to release dolphin on steam which is beyond ridicilous.
Nintendo can sue and jump and scream all they want shit will get made no matter if yuzu quits or not. Because there is a demand for it.
The same goes for those moral knights in this thread that shout but but but it's illigal blablabla and u didn't rip it yourself. They forgot that PC gamers give zero fucks about company's like nintendo because they do not serve them. If nintendo wants to make money they need to start releasing there games on PC and push good will with the community. Because at the end of the day palworld gets bought 15 million times because people like it and want to support it, the game was piratable day one for example.
Again nintendo can scream and jump up and down whatever they want, it changes nothing.
Ron Mexico
Member
I was working at EB during the Bleem! days. Hell of a nostalgia trip.
Also, we're in a time where Nintendo is (rumored to be delaying) a new console that would theoretically play the original Switch catalog in higher fidelity. So they go after a tool...that will allow the Switch catalog to be played in higher fidelity.
The piracy angle was meant to do just this-- to appeal to the emotions because clearly that works. Nintendo is not alone in trying to protect sales. Tale as old as time. Except I'd expect the sales they're looking to protect are upgrades/re-releases/whatever when the next console launches. Doubly so when the industry as a whole is contracting and focusing on taking fewer "risks". What's lower risk than repackaging an upscaled version of X title that sold Y millions of copies? Rereleases/Remasters/Upgrades are safe bets because you already know your potential audience. You thin that audience out if the paid "upgrade" isn't doing more than tools that are currently available. So you control the risk by (trying to) eliminate the competition.
Also, we're in a time where Nintendo is (rumored to be delaying) a new console that would theoretically play the original Switch catalog in higher fidelity. So they go after a tool...that will allow the Switch catalog to be played in higher fidelity.
The piracy angle was meant to do just this-- to appeal to the emotions because clearly that works. Nintendo is not alone in trying to protect sales. Tale as old as time. Except I'd expect the sales they're looking to protect are upgrades/re-releases/whatever when the next console launches. Doubly so when the industry as a whole is contracting and focusing on taking fewer "risks". What's lower risk than repackaging an upscaled version of X title that sold Y millions of copies? Rereleases/Remasters/Upgrades are safe bets because you already know your potential audience. You thin that audience out if the paid "upgrade" isn't doing more than tools that are currently available. So you control the risk by (trying to) eliminate the competition.
Topher
Gold Member
Thing is Bleem had to go out of business due to overwhelming legal fees. That's the problem with all of this. Nintendo doesn't need to win. They just need to overwhelm Yuzu with legal bullshit until they have no more money to pay lawyers.
The other problem with this is that winning by default means we get no ruling on what is legal and what is not. Guarantee you Nintendo does not ever want this to get to the point where a judge has to make a ruling. Far too much risk there.
Dolphin's use of keys was highlighted in Nintendo's cease and desist letter.