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Nintendo Switch Dev Kit Stats Leaked? Cortex A57, 4GB RAM, 32GB Storage, Multi-Touch.

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BuggyMike

Member
It's been speculated that the fan is actually within the dock and not the Switch itself. The cutouts/vents in the Switch could be used for convection cooling when not docked, which is still a decent way to provide passive cooling. Then, when docked the fan in the dock can run and provide active cooling to allow the Switch to clock higher.

The other reason I'd say is for stability. If this needs to stand up like that to allow the top of the Switch to act as an IR sensor bar then it needs some sort of width and thickness to allow it to stay stable.

Yeah makes sense. Learning whether the fan is inside the tablet or inside of the dock will reveal a lot about the Switch. I'm still leaning towards it being in the handheld itself, considering all of the cut-outs, and the fact that we know nVidia put a fan in their Shield portable. Considering they likely played a big role in the design of Switch, I could see them doing the same for this too, even if the fan only turns on while docked/under heavy load in portable mode.

At this point I think it's just a design decision. I was expecting something much closer to the Wii U Gamepad's dock, but they seem to want to make it look more substantial. Something that can sit sturdily and doesn't leave (most of) the screen exposed. It seems like covering the screen is also going out of their way to show "This is not Wii U! Don't look here when it's docked, you won't see anything extra!"

I gotta say though, I don't hate the design. It does give the impression that it's not just a handheld plugged to your TV but something more substantial. Like theirs more going on under the hood (even if there isn't). It does seem to help with the 'this is a console first' design philosophy.
 

AzaK

Member
Yeah makes sense. Learning whether the fan is inside the tablet or inside of the dock will reveal a lot about the Switch. I'm still leaning towards it being in the handheld itself, considering all of the cut-outs, and the fact that we know nVidia put a fan in their Shield portable. Considering they likely played a big role in the design of Switch, I could see them doing the same for this too, even if the fan only turns on while docked/under heavy load in portable mode.



I gotta say though, I don't hate the design. It does give the impression that it's not just a handheld plugged to your TV but something more substantial. Like theirs more going on under the hood (even if there isn't). It does seem to help with the 'this is a console first' design philosophy.

I see Nintendo avoiding fans in the HH like the plague as it'd be too noisy.
 
Yeah I understand it from the point of view of other people who might not want it, but if they are pushing AAA and if they are pushing digital downloads then they are basically saying "You will need to buy a lot of extra storage". This only works if the console itself is really cheap that another $60-100 is not a problem. Even if the machine is $200, if you're a big AAA gamer then you end up paying $300+ for the machine by the time you get only 512GB of storage.
If you need 512 GB of storage you've also probably blown a thousand bucks on games anyway, unless you're exclusively picking them by large size.
 

MacTag

Banned
If you need 512 GB of storage you've also probably blown a thousand bucks on games anyway, unless you're exclusively picking them by large size.
Core gamers will pay extra for storage. If we look at general attach ratios all consoles seem to top out around 10 games max, and with a ~30% digital ratio for today's systems even as little as a 32GB card would be fine for most consumers.
 

OryoN

Member
But for the first problem, I think Nintendo is planning to downclock the SoC fairly heavily in portable mode.

That's one way to ensure it never gets too hot, agreed. Though I fear that may put a greater disparity between mobile and docked mode, expecially if they intend to target mainly 1080p when docked. Might see a surprisingly large number of sub-720p games (which, imo isn't that big of a deal, but I'm sure many will be upset).

As for the design, I think the way it's designed makes perfect sense if the fan is in the dock. The dock has an air intake in the back which can be connected to an internal fan that blows air into the slits in the back of the Switch tablet, and up through the internals and finally out through the vents at the top of the tablet. That would solve the problem of having a moving part (fan) inside a portable device (tablet) which is typically a relatively common point of failure.

From what I'm able to discern, those are some tiny slits to blow air into. I'm not sure how effective that would be. This goes back to the need for over-engineering to make this all work. They seem like they would better function as intakes(for an internal fan) rather than spaces to blow air into. But hey man, I understand this is all speculation on our part. Seems like such a device presented them with a new set of hurdles than the typical console, so I'm anxious to the various solutions they employed.
 

MacTag

Banned
That's one way to ensure it never gets too hot, agreed. Though I fear that may put a greater disparity between mobile and docked mode, expecially if they intend to target mainly 1080p when docked. Might see a surprisingly large number of sub-720p games (which, imo isn't that big of a deal, but I'm sure many will be upset).
Any subnative games would surprise me. That's never happened on a Nintendo handheld before and not even on the Wii U gamepad either. I think we may still see some 720p games in tv mode but I'll be a bit shocked if we see subnative games in handheld mode.
 

The Antelope

Neo Member
Isn't it possible that the dock as some kind of a large capacity hard-drive and you can swap games between it and the handheld device? I was thinking about it and it makes some sense, since it has a USB-C connection. You could have all your games in the dock, and when you leave, you would choose two or three digital games to go with you. The transfer from dock to handheld wouldn't take that long, i guess.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
That's one way to ensure it never gets too hot, agreed. Though I fear that may put a greater disparity between mobile and docked mode, expecially if they intend to target mainly 1080p when docked. Might see a surprisingly large number of sub-720p games (which, imo isn't that big of a deal, but I'm sure many will be upset).



From what I'm able to discern, those are some tiny slits to blow air into. I'm not sure how effective that would be. This goes back to the need for over-engineering to make this all work. They seem like they would better function as intakes(for an internal fan) rather than spaces to blow air into. But hey man, I understand this is all speculation on our part. Seems like such a device presented them with a new set of hurdles than the typical console, so I'm anxious to the various solutions they employed.

Won't happen. The difference between 720p and 1080p is like 5 to 15 W. If anything, this won't hit 1080p on TV in most cases.
 
Isn't it possible that the dock as some kind of a large capacity hard-drive and you can swap games between it and the handheld device? I was thinking about it and it makes some sense, since it has a USB-C connection. You could have all your games in the dock, and when you leave, you would choose two or three digital games to go with you. The transfer from dock to handheld wouldn't take that long, i guess.

Nintendo has explicitly said that the dock does nothing but charge/supply power to the Switch, but they could be hiding something for the January event, yeah.

I personally think there will be a cloud storage solution for digital games.
 

M3d10n

Member
Isn't it possible that the dock as some kind of a large capacity hard-drive and you can swap games between it and the handheld device? I was thinking about it and it makes some sense, since it has a USB-C connection. You could have all your games in the dock, and when you leave, you would choose two or three digital games to go with you. The transfer from dock to handheld wouldn't take that long, i guess.

They said the dock doesn't support storage, because it would make the experience complicated if you were playing a game that was installed on the dock and tried to undock, which they would like to keep a seamless thing.

The only way that could work is if launching a game always copied it to the internal memory, but that could take well over a minute for larger games.
 

Turrican3

Member
For me I don't need a low price, I need a kick arse gaming machine where I don't have to fork out retail prices for basic storage.
I don't need a low price either, actually.
What I do need/want though, is Nintendo to be successful with the Switch, and I believe it is a must keeping the price low to achieve that goal.

If they can have a reasonably powerful machine and that's the price I have to pay for a relatively low default storage, then so be it. As long as it can be expanded by the user obviously.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Were there any vents on the bottom of the switch? I only saw ones at the top?

One thing to take note of is that Nintendo was very very cautious with how they presented the Switch. IMO they purposefully had it dock into something that would hide the screen so that it wouldn't be confused with the Wii U. The made sure to show exactly how they expected it to be used which is docked with another controller or off the dock with the Joy Cons.

CvQEx3nVUAABugJ.jpg:large




My thought was maybe the dock houses the fan, blowing air in the bottom vents and up out the top, avoiding having a fan in the mobile part.
 
I should have said that it's been speculated that the fan could be in the dock. Right now there's no way to know for sure.

As for the design, I think the way it's designed makes perfect sense if the fan is in the dock. The dock has an air intake in the back which can be connected to an internal fan that blows air into the slits in the back of the Switch tablet, and up through the internals and finally out through the vents at the top of the tablet. That would solve the problem of having a moving part (fan) inside a portable device (tablet) which is typically a relatively common point of failure.
When we got rumors with details about the dock functionality (USB ports number/TV connection) i was hoping that it also housed the fan. After the unveil trailer im not so sure.

Assuming the Dock in the trailer is final, here are some things to consider:
  • Time lapses 1:21/2:28/3:36 offer clear views of the dock from different angles.
  • At 1:21 inside the dock you can only see 2 long rubber like pads to stabilize the Switch when docked. Not a single hole or vent for a fan contained within the dock.
  • The pads also serve to create some distance between the Switch rear vents and the inner wall of the dock. So an internal fan inside the Switch itself would be able to suck air through the rear of the device and exhaust it via the top vent, which is completely free of obstructions when docked.
  • 1:21 gives a look at the indentation in the dock for the power and TV cables. On the other hand, 2:28 shows the opposite side without it. So that identation doesn't extend from one corner to the other.
  • Another practical reason for the fan to be in the Switch, is that the device is designed to be plugged to a power outlet even when it is not in the dock. So a fan would be necessary in the event that it opperates at full capacity in this state.
After taking the above into account and assuming the dock wont change from the trailer i would be curious to know where do you think the fan would be positioned in the dock and how it would work exactly? i encourage you to take some captures from the trailer at those time lapses and do some zoom and brightness/contrast adjustments to see if you can pick anything of, because i couldn't.

Further to this, everyone should watch YongYea's Hidden Features video. He notices things in the reveal trailer that I, and many others, missed completely. The reason I make reference in this instance is when we see the players in the van playing MK there are cutouts in the seat mount that match the perforated zones on the back of the Switch console. Speculation is that those are air intakes. This may also partly explain the cut-out in the home dock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UclI--l7jfs
Is yonyea a Neogaf member? i don't want to be rude but at the least he/she should've give some mention of Neogaf in the video since it seems this place and the Euro/Dale/Roger leaks is from where he got most of his information.

However, the way he reaches some conclusions can be shaky i consider. For example:
Smudges in the screen signifying a touch one. Every single handheld device i had since the Gameboy had smudges in the screen independently of them been touch sensitive or not. The users tend to touch the screen at one point or another when handling the device.

He also seems to reach conclusions assuming the device is actually been operated by the actors in the trailer, when in reality is the most plausible scenario is that the game scenes are added at post shooting in the editing phase. However i do agree with him, that to some extent the actors could be directed to do certain gestures when filming.

Another thing he misses is related to the hidden shoulder buttons and the cover accessory in the scene with the girls playing Mario. Not only the Joycon looks rounder in the upper part in that part of the video but also there is a pretty clear color change in that Joycon: Black and grey. We know the Joycon surface (save for the buttons) is mostly of an uniform color, so something has been added to them in that scene to present a black upper part and a grey body.

EDIT:
Adressing Th3Sickness here. i think the speakers are those 2 clearly visible small holes in the bottom part of the screen, situated on the left and right sides.
 
When we got rumors with details about the dock functionality (USB ports number/TV connection) i was hoping that it also housed the fan. After the unveil trailer im not so sure.

Assuming the Dock in the trailer is final, here are some things to consider:
  • Time lapses 1:21/2:28/3:36 offer clear views of the dock from different angles.
  • At 1:21 inside the dock you can only see 2 long rubber like pads to stabilize the Switch when docked. Not a single hole or vent for a fan contained within the dock.
  • The pads also serve to create some distance between the Switch rear vents and the inner wall of the dock. So an internal fan inside the Switch itself would be able to suck air through the rear of the device and exhaust it via the top vent, which is completely free of obstructions when docked.
  • 1:21 gives a look at the indentation in the dock for the power and TV cables. On the other hand, 2:28 shows the opposite side without it. So that identation doesn't extend from one corner to the other.
  • Another practical reason for the fan to be in the Switch, is that the device is designed to be plugged to a power outlet even when it is not in the dock. So a fan would be necessary in the event that it opperates at full capacity in this state.
After taking the above into account and assuming the dock wont change from the trailer i would be curious to know where do you think the fan would be positioned in the dock and how it would work exactly? i encourage you to take some captures from the trailer at those time lapses and do some zoom and brightness/contrast adjustments to see if you can pick anything of, because i couldn't.

Since the units used in the trailer clearly weren't fully functional (I assume they had no internals whatsoever) I don't know if the final units will be 100% identical to those. Since we have seen features like those cutouts in the car headseat holder, it certainly seems like the final product should resemble what's seen in the trailer, but there can surely be several subtle differences for all we know, like how the Wii U gamepad originally had circle pads which were changed to analog sticks.

You are certainly right that there is no visual evidence that the dock may house the fan- it's just a theory about what could be possible, given what we've seen. The fact that we haven't gotten a good look at the inside of the dock or the back of the dock though makes me think there are a few details that they haven't finalized, one of which could be where to put the fan.

Thinking about that makes me wonder if they aren't entirely sure what the final hardware will include- maybe they are having shortages with certain components? If the Switch has to launch with a 20nm SoC then active cooling might be 100% necessary for even portable gaming. I would hope that isn't the case though.
 

Thraktor

Member
Haha yes 1/2 TB.

Regarding cost I am making the assumption that whatever Nintendo choose as the solution, they can get it MUCH cheaper than customers can. For instance, if the +$50 SKU also had a 512GB microSD packed in it would be a moot point. But if I have to pay $60 at retail for a even 256GB that's starting to hurt because if my PS4 HDD is anything to go by I'll need two of those.

And finally, as I mentioned above, how does it affect the perspective AAA publishers and developers have of the console.

I'm not basing that $30-40 on consumer prices, I'm basing it on cost prices of similar flash modules used in phones today (commoditised components like eMMC and UFS are the kinds of things which you can expect companies like IHS to be pretty accurate on). It's quite a different thing from consumer SD cards, in any case, as Samsung's 256GB UFS module (the only one currently available) can hit 760MB/s read speeds.

There are a couple of big differences between Switch and PS4/XBO when it comes to internal storage. The first, and most obvious of them, is that Switch won't have mandatory installs for physical games. With physical purchases still accounting for 70% of game sales, that's a huge reduction in the typical storage requirements. If we take a simple average, then someone who filled a 500GB hard-drive on PS4 would only need 150GB of space on Switch. In reality, though, it's not going to be the case that everyone will uniformly buy 30% of their purchases digitally. It's more reasonable to expect that there's a small minority who are fully digital, a much larger group who are fully physical, and then a spectrum in between who buy either physical or digital depending on convenience or cost or whatever.

For those who only buy physical games, it would be silly to charge them an extra $50 on the price of the console for a load of flash storage they'll never use (and might I remind you that this group significantly outnumbers the group who buy all-digital.) Nintendo wants to target as wide an audience and be as competitive on price as possible with Switch, so it makes sense that they won't include expensive hardware in their base model which a large number of their customers won't use, but will rather offer a separate model for those who do need more storage. Offering a $249 32GB model and a $299 128GB model makes a lot more sense for them than just offering the $299 128GB model.

Secondly, because Switch isn't as powerful as PS4 (let alone PS4 Pro), developers will use lower quality assets, and hence download sizes should be expected to be smaller than on other consoles. In addition, because publishers can save a small amount of money by using a smaller game card, they'll actually be incentivised to put non-trivial effort into compression, which a lot of games simply don't do now. Switch supporting HEVC could also help this. I would honestly expect that, between reduced assets and proper compression, many larger third-party games could be reduced in size by as much as half for Switch ports. You'd be amazed at how much space is taken up in many games with uncompressed audio and unnecessarily high-bitrate FMVs (or entire FMVs duplicated just for separate audio tracks).

To be honest, though, if there were anything I'd like them to focus on when it comes to storage, it's speed rather than capacity. It would only cost them a few dollars to use UFS instead of eMMC for internal storage, and use UFS cards rather than MicroSD. Combined with a fast serial interface for game cards (which they seem to be going with), they could guarantee perhaps 400MB/s reads regardless of what the game's running off, combined with perhaps 20K+ IOPS. For game devs (particularly open-world games or any games which make heavy use of asset-streaming), it could allow them to do things that simply aren't possible on games which have to be able to run off mechanical hard-drives. That's far more interesting to me than offering a little more out of the box storage.
 
Were these leaked specs confirmed true or false at all? Thread is too long for me to go hunting down the info myself :/

Yeah it's essentially been confirmed false by Nvidia themselves, who say that the Switch uses a custom Tegra SoC, whereas the specs in the OP detail an off-the-shelf Tegra X1. Also the source had apparently claimed (a week before the Switch reveal) that Nvidia is not involved in the NX.


What? I'm thinking there might be some streaming function which allows you to sync digital games fairly quickly/easily while the Switch is connected to the internet. 256GB just seems like such a small amount for maximum storage when Nintendo understands how important and lucrative digital sales are. Though, as Thraktor said above, game sizes might be much lower for the Switch, so who knows.

Edit: I have no idea how feasible it is, especially with data caps, but since Nintendo has stated again and again the importance of digital sales I would think they have a good solution for this. Maybe more compression simply is the answer.
 

Daedardus

Member
Since the units used in the trailer clearly weren't fully functional (I assume they had no internals whatsoever) I don't know if the final units will be 100% identical to those. Since we have seen features like those cutouts in the car headseat holder, it certainly seems like the final product should resemble what's seen in the trailer, but there can surely be several subtle differences for all we know, like how the Wii U gamepad originally had circle pads which were changed to analog sticks.

You are certainly right that there is no visual evidence that the dock may house the fan- it's just a theory about what could be possible, given what we've seen. The fact that we haven't gotten a good look at the inside of the dock or the back of the dock though makes me think there are a few details that they haven't finalized, one of which could be where to put the fan.

Thinking about that makes me wonder if they aren't entirely sure what the final hardware will include- maybe they are having shortages with certain components? If the Switch has to launch with a 20nm SoC then active cooling might be 100% necessary for even portable gaming. I would hope that isn't the case though.

Emily said before the reveal that the hardware was finalised and went into testing production. I'm pretty sure that what was shown is final hardware, and that nothing will change between release. It would make no sense to use an earlier version if they have the testing prototypes already around and the six month period between reveal take and release is too small to feature any substantial changes. Maybe they even waited this long with the reveal until they had finalised hardware.

That said, it's pretty likely that the Switch itself will hold the fan. It's easier and more efficient for the fan to be closer to the heat source and the fan can still be speed controlled to allow a quieter working point or a full load. I doubt it will be ever that noisy in handheld mode.
 
Emily said before the reveal that the hardware was finalised and went into testing production. I'm pretty sure that what was shown is final hardware, and that nothing will change between release. It would make no sense to use an earlier version if they have the testing prototypes already around and the six month period between reveal take and release is too small to feature any substantial changes. Maybe they even waited this long with the reveal until they had finalised hardware.

That said, it's pretty likely that the Switch itself will hold the fan. It's easier and more efficient for the fan to be closer to the heat source and the fan can still be speed controlled to allow a quieter working point or a full load. I doubt it will be ever that noisy in handheld mode.

She did say it was finalized, but I was assuming she meant more the specs like the SoC, flash storage, screen resolution etc. were finalized.

Either way, the fact that they didn't give us a clear shot of the back of the dock, the inside of the dock, or the bottom of the Switch makes me think there are some things they don't want us to see just yet, possibly because they are subject to change or possibly because they indicate some hidden functionality that we aren't supposed to know about yet.
 

Rödskägg

Neo Member
To be honest, though, if there were anything I'd like them to focus on when it comes to storage, it's speed rather than capacity. It would only cost them a few dollars to use UFS instead of eMMC for internal storage, and use UFS cards rather than MicroSD. Combined with a fast serial interface for game cards (which they seem to be going with), they could guarantee perhaps 400MB/s reads regardless of what the game's running off, combined with perhaps 20K+ IOPS. For game devs (particularly open-world games or any games which make heavy use of asset-streaming), it could allow them to do things that simply aren't possible on games which have to be able to run off mechanical hard-drives. That's far more interesting to me than offering a little more out of the box storage.
Can you elaborate on what could be possible with this technology which isn't doable today from a gameplay perspective, thanks.
 

Vic

Please help me with my bad english
To be honest, though, if there were anything I'd like them to focus on when it comes to storage, it's speed rather than capacity. It would only cost them a few dollars to use UFS instead of eMMC for internal storage, and use UFS cards rather than MicroSD. Combined with a fast serial interface for game cards (which they seem to be going with), they could guarantee perhaps 400MB/s reads regardless of what the game's running off, combined with perhaps 20K+ IOPS. For game devs (particularly open-world games or any games which make heavy use of asset-streaming), it could allow them to do things that simply aren't possible on games which have to be able to run off mechanical hard-drives. That's far more interesting to me than offering a little more out of the box storage.
I've been wondering about this. If the game cards should be indeed capable of a high throughput when it comes to read speeds (like 300MB/s+), wouldn't playing games of an MicroSD with it's comparably low throughput be an issue?
 

AzaK

Member
If you need 512 GB of storage you've also probably blown a thousand bucks on games anyway, unless you're exclusively picking them by large size.

I haven't blown anywhere near that amount of $$, I think I own about 5 PS4 games on disk and the rest are PS+. Of my 500GB I have 50GB free space and the rest is taken up with:

8.5GB of save data
4GB of captured screenshots and videos.
Doom was 66GB - YES 66GB.
Uncharted 45GB
Fallout 4 45GB
ZOMBI 22
then it goes down from that. I don't think I can get a break down of those games as to what amount is original game and what's patches.

Now I realise Switch doesn't need game installs if you're cart buying but how are patches going to be managed and what about if you're a digital person? 66GB gone with one game means you get 2 games on 128GB - that's pathetic. Then with patches are developers going to be able to provide simple deltas that the cart game can reference, or will patches then require an install so the data files can be read from with one place? I'm guessing and hoping, given the anaemic storage that it will be the latter.

Anyway, 500GB isn't that much these days if you're aiming, as Nintendo is trying to suggest to us, for AAA games. If they are simply going to be a 3DS level handheld with some of Nintendos own games then sure, 256GB might be enough but then it's not a console I want.
 

Matt

Member
I haven't blown anywhere near that amount of $$, I think I own about 5 PS4 games on disk and the rest are PS+. Of my 500GB I have 50GB free space and the rest is taken up with:

8.5GB of save data
4GB of captured screenshots and videos.
Doom was 66GB - YES 66GB.
Uncharted 45GB
Fallout 4 45GB
ZOMBI 22
then it goes down from that. I don't think I can get a break down of those games as to what amount is original game and what's patches.

Now I realise Switch doesn't need game installs if you're cart buying but how are patches going to be managed and what about if you're a digital person? 66GB gone with one game means you get 2 games on 128GB - that's pathetic. Then with patches are developers going to be able to provide simple deltas that the cart game can reference, or will patches then require an install so the data files can be read from with one place? I'm guessing and hoping, given the anaemic storage that it will be the latter.

Anyway, 500GB isn't that much these days if you're aiming, as Nintendo is trying to suggest to us, for AAA games. If they are simply going to be a 3DS level handheld with some of Nintendos own games then sure, 256GB might be enough but then it's not a console I want.
I think it's important to again point out for this discussion that games are as big as they are today largely because they can be, not because they have to be.
 

AzaK

Member
I'm not basing that $30-40 on consumer prices, I'm basing it on cost prices of similar flash modules used in phones today (commoditised components like eMMC and UFS are the kinds of things which you can expect companies like IHS to be pretty accurate on). It's quite a different thing from consumer SD cards, in any case, as Samsung's 256GB UFS module (the only one currently available) can hit 760MB/s read speeds.

I realise the onboard wasn't retail but you were talking about UFS storage instead of MicroSD I thought. That is where we can get benefit if Nintendo provides it. I don't care if the storage is internal or not so long as they provide some sort of cost efficient method of expansion. That is, I do NOT want to pay US$60 to get what I consider to be sub-standard storage (128-256GB). $10-20 maybe but given the competition and what they offer now (1TB IIRC) Nintendo need to come to the party.

For those who only buy physical games, it would be silly to charge them an extra $50 on the price of the console for a load of flash storage they'll never use (and might I remind you that this group significantly outnumbers the group who buy all-digital.)

I don't think anyone complains about the PS4 or XBO as far as I know because it's just expected that a good, solid gaming console has good storage. People need to stop giving Nintendo free passes.


There are a couple of big differences between Switch and PS4/XBO when it comes to internal storage. The first, and most obvious of them, is that Switch won't have mandatory installs for physical games. With physical purchases still accounting for 70% of game sales, that's a huge reduction in the typical storage requirements. If we take a simple average, then someone who filled a 500GB hard-drive on PS4 would only need 150GB of space on Switch. In reality, though, it's not going to be the case that everyone will uniformly buy 30% of their purchases digitally. It's more reasonable to expect that there's a small minority who are fully digital, a much larger group who are fully physical, and then a spectrum in between who buy either physical or digital depending on convenience or cost or whatever.

One thing you also need to take into account is patches which can be pretty large for the big games (10+GB) and we'd also need to know how they will handle filesystem access to assets and whether asset bundles all need to be in a relative path which would me having to duplicate some or all of the cart contents to storage if you patch.

Secondly, because Switch isn't as powerful as PS4 (let alone PS4 Pro), developers will use lower quality assets, and hence download sizes should be expected to be smaller than on other consoles. In addition, because publishers can save a small amount of money by using a smaller game card, they'll actually be incentivised to put non-trivial effort into compression, which a lot of games simply don't do now. Switch supporting HEVC could also help this. I would honestly expect that, between reduced assets and proper compression, many larger third-party games could be reduced in size by as much as half for Switch ports. You'd be amazed at how much space is taken up in many games with uncompressed audio and unnecessarily high-bitrate FMVs (or entire FMVs duplicated just for separate audio tracks).

I'll guess we'll have to wait and see but I don't necessarily think assets will be much smaller than PS4 as the Switch is meant to do similar resolutions as far as we know. I would be surprised if it was designed to be a 720p machine on a large TV in this day and age. But who knows.

Additionally when it comes to effort, developers would rather not bother if it's a headache (Unless of course Switch sells gangbusters) especially given the sales for core games on Nintendo hardware.

To be honest, though, if there were anything I'd like them to focus on when it comes to storage, it's speed rather than capacity. It would only cost them a few dollars to use UFS instead of eMMC for internal storage, and use UFS cards rather than MicroSD.
The two questions I have around UFS cards are : 1) Where can you buy them as a quick google pulled up nothing for me. 2) If they're brand new I'd guess they'd be expensive no?
 

AzaK

Member
I think it's important to again point out for this discussion that games are as big as they are today largely because they can be, not because they have to be.

Sure I'll give you that, but we also need to look at what's required for a developer when they're building their game for the PC or PS4 as the lead SKU and then looking at a Switch port. Will the conversion process and all the QA required for that, along with future patch effort etc be worth it? Will people who have to put up with a "lesser" version due to storage just go "what's the point" and buy it on another platform. I'm working on the assumption that Nintendo need to be on par here for them to have any chance at a market of big AAA games.

So sure, if games on switch use 5GB of storage and Nintendo provide a packed in 256GB SD card then I'll probably be OK with it. But we're obviously basing the conversion on what we see today in games and storage.
 
I think it's important to again point out for this discussion that games are as big as they are today largely because they can be, not because they have to be.

I agree but wasn't the small capacity of gamecube mini discs used to justify the absence of some third party software?
 

AzaK

Member
More than justify it ws the case. But again what Nintendo has to understand is 3rd parties in their case will make any excuses to not bring a game to their console. Like others have said this is why it is important for nintendo to give specs and what their hardware is capable of. So when a developer tries to pull the it can't run on Ninty system gamers can say... BULLSHIT!

Just to give an example of what I mean. Nintendo allows Nvidia to showcase a tech demo running on Switch. This demo shows what it is capable of and is explained how they can achieve what we see. Now when a developer says oh my game can't run on switching we can call them for their bullshit. Because we saw a demo running a with equal or better assets, resolution, and quality. Have to hold these guys accountable when it comes to Nintendo.

Devs had to be diplomatic. Nintendo were draconian nazis from NES to Cube. Even if they talk specs and we call bullshit on developers' excuses that won't matter to anyone. All it needs is sales and people wanting to buy those games on that platform, so if Nintendo want to have the AAA games, they need to make a machine that people will want to play those AAA games on. A machine lesser than the PS4/XBO (As we're thinking) already puts it on the back foot and HH mode is not going to get them there for console gamers.

Basically there would have to be some magic shit in the Switch (Like stream games from Steam) to get your general console gamers to even look twice at the switch. HH gamers sure, they'll get it but then it's a HH, not a console as Nintendo is trying to sell us on.

So currently as Switch stands I see Nintendo as pulling the same bullshit they did with Wii U so far. Saying they have a machine for all those games but obviously not making a machine for those games and doing their own thing anyway.
 

goldenpp72

Member
More than justify it ws the case. But again what Nintendo has to understand is 3rd parties in their case will make any excuses to not bring a game to their console. Like others have said this is why it is important for nintendo to give specs and what their hardware is capable of. So when a developer tries to pull the it can't run on Ninty system gamers can say... BULLSHIT!

Just to give an example of what I mean. Nintendo allows Nvidia to showcase a tech demo running on Switch. This demo shows what it is capable of and is explained how they can achieve what we see. Now when a developer says oh my game can't run on switching we can call them for their bullshit. Because we saw a demo running a with equal or better assets, resolution, and quality. Have to hold these guys accountable when it comes to Nintendo.

This is such bullshit, no company rejects easy money. There isn't this big conspiracy against Nintendo from third parties. This resentment towards Nintendo comes from tons of history of bad sales. Gamecube got quite a bit of third party support despite the strange controller and tiny disc space, and most of the time the sales were weak. On Wii, many developers tried to put content on it and were met with bad sales, and it took a lot of work to port to Wii due to the disparity. The Wii U flopped right out of the gate and the few third party titles it got, also bombed.

Nintendo is a wonderful company, but their mindset is ALWAYS to design around their own sensibilities first and allow others to join the party if they want. If the Switch has specs in line enough to get Xbox/PS4 ports without significant reworking, and the sales are at least reasonably decent for both the system and the games put on it, then it will get plenty of support. Nintendo just needs to create a system that is successful and simple to design games for that don't have to basically be exclusive versions. The entire reason most games come to PS4/Xbox is the fact that it is easy enough to put a PC game to them. Of course, Japanese titles have largely been skipping Xbox One despite being present on the 360, and that's because the Xbox One has become a toxic environment to try and sell Japanese titles on (mostly). If there were money to be made there the content would come, MS failed to succeed the 360 sensibilities and that was one of the penalties.

The ball is entirely in Nintendo's court for this, the fact they have created a potentially powerful mobile device may well be a big draw for third parties, but if the system requires significant cuts/sacrifices/effort to put a game on, then it will need to take off like wildfire to attract developers.

Remember, MS had to fight tooth and nail and spend billions to get the support they ended up with, Nintendo just needs to create a system in line with the specs other companies are working with and maybe make a few incentives to get some initial support. If companies aren't making money off the hardware, why should they put games on it? It's a first party companies responsibility to create a system that is easy to make money on, it's not the third parties job to create an appealing console, they just want to sell software.
 

Matt

Member
Sure I'll give you that, but we also need to look at what's required for a developer when they're building their game for the PC or PS4 as the lead SKU and then looking at a Switch port. Will the conversion process and all the QA required for that, along with future patch effort etc be worth it? Will people who have to put up with a "lesser" version due to storage just go "what's the point" and buy it on another platform. I'm working on the assumption that Nintendo need to be on par here for them to have any chance at a market of big AAA games.

So sure, if games on switch use 5GB of storage and Nintendo provide a packed in 256GB SD card then I'll probably be OK with it. But we're obviously basing the conversion on what we see today in games and storage.
A lot of the stuff devs could do to reduce space requirements would be basically imperceptible to most or all gamers.

Again, this conversation is largely academic. If a publisher wants to put a game on the Switch, the vast majority of the time a dev will be able to do it.
 
If you need 512 GB of storage you've also probably blown a thousand bucks on games anyway, unless you're exclusively picking them by large size.

AzaK is right you know. We're getting switch for what is likely 250 for a base model with not that much storage space(I'm betting at this point that not even a $300 bundle would have over 64-100GB). So buying an hard drive that is 500GB to 1TB would cost an extra 50 at least and that bumps the price to 300-350. Compare that to the competition that already have that space and much more powerful hardware and a developed install base. The Switch needs to look like a good value for people choosing between consoles in most areas. Price/affordability, games, power, storage space.. Those all matter.

Nintendo really needs to stomp gimping people with crap hard drive space. 32GB of space is god awful for a console in this day and generation and forces people to buy a 50-100 hard drive as a stupid additional cost. Might as well have a decent amount of hard drive space included wholesale from the start which ends up being cheaper for the consumer vs buying at retail.
 

Matt

Member
AzaK is right you know. We're getting switch for what is likely 250 for a base model with not that much storage space(I'm betting at this point that not even a $300 bundle would have over 64-100GB). So buying an hard drive that is 500GB to 1TB would cost an extra 50 at least and that bumps the price to 300-350. Compare that to the competition that already have that space and much more powerful hardware and a developed install base. The Switch needs to look like a good value for people choosing between consoles in most areas. Price/affordability, games, power, storage space.. Those all matter.

Nintendo really needs to stomp gimping people with crap hard drive space. 32GB of space is god awful for a console in this day and generation and forces people to buy a 50-100 hard drive as a stupid additional cost. Might as well have a decent amount of hard drive space included wholesale from the start which ends up being cheaper for the consumer vs buying at retail.
The demands people are putting on Nintendo for this system are just staggering. It has to be super powerful, it has to have massive storage, and it has to be cheap. All of these things together are impossible for this concept.
 
The demands people are putting on Nintendo for this system are just staggering. It has to be super powerful, it has to have massive storage, and it has to be cheap. All of these things together are impossible for this concept.
And 10 hour battery life.
 

Roo

Member
A lot of the stuff devs could do to reduce space requirements would be basically imperceptible to most or all gamers.

Again, this conversation is largely academic. If a publisher wants to put a game on the Switch, the vast majority of the time a dev will be able to do it.

I know games/engines are highly scalable nowadays etc but from your personal point of view, do you think there are going to be significant compromises to these game to make it happen or will the experience will be roughly the same across all platforms?
 

Matt

Member
I know games/engines are highly scalable nowadays etc but from your personal point of view, do you think there are going to be significant compromises to these game to make it happen or will the experience will be roughly the same across all platforms?
By and large the experience can be transferred over intact.

After all, is the experience of playing GTAV on a 360 really very different from playing it on a PS4?
 
By and large the experience can be transferred over intact.

After all, is the experience of playing GTAV on a 360 really very different from playing it on a PS4?

you know some people found mario kart 8 unplayable because of the 59fps problem?
There are a lot of ridiculous stances here.
 

Hermii

Member
By and large the experience can be transferred over intact.

After all, is the experience of playing GTAV on a 360 really very different from playing it on a PS4?
GTA 5 remaster is an up port of a last gen game, not a downport of a current gen game. Not the same thing.
 

Genio88

Member
Let's deal with it, it's gonna be a 249$ console for the base SKU, it'll have 16/32GB of storage, Tegra Pascal based CPU with raw power of about a Tegra X1 but with less power consumption, and battery life will be about 3/4 hours depending on the game you play and brightness/WiFi settings.
I read someone of you expecting 250GB or 128GB of internal storage, you must be joking, eMMC or especially UFS storage are not as cheap as the PS4/XB1 5200rpm hard drives, so Nintendo can't put there something more than 64GB, and even then that would be for the 299$ "premium model" i expect 32GB at best instead for the base 249$ model.
a big micro SD will be a must have for those who want to go full digital, thankfully their not too expensive and i guess Switch games won't be bigger than 16GB as average.
Also there is a reason if they clearly showed a guy putting a game cartridge into Switch in that short reveal trailer, they want people to understand physical games are what we are supposed to use on Switch mosty.
 

Roo

Member
By and large the experience can be transferred over intact.

After all, is the experience of playing GTAV on a 360 really very different from playing it on a PS4?

I see, thanks. I guess that's reassuring for people looking forward to third party support for Switch.
As for your question, no, it certainly isn't very different (at least to me anyway) but it'd be naive of me to say most people won't be expecting to receive the same game for Switch with little to no gameplay/graphical downgrades compared to other platforms.
 

Jaagen

Member
Let's deal with it, it's gonna be a 249$ console for the base SKU, it'll have 16/32GB of storage, Tegra Pascal based CPU with raw power of about a Tegra X1 but with less power consumption, and battery life will be about 3/4 hours depending on the game you play and brightness/WiFi settings.
I read someone of you expecting 250GB or 128GB of internal storage, you must be joking, eMMC or especially UFS storage are not as cheap as the PS4/XB1 5200rpm hard drives, so Nintendo can't put there something more than 64GB, and even then that would be for the 299$ "premium model" i expect 32GB at best instead for the base 249$ model.
a big micro SD will be a must have for those who want to go full digital, thankfully their not too expensive and i guess Switch games won't be bigger than 16GB as average.
Also there is a reason if they clearly showed a guy putting a game cartridge into Switch in that short reveal trailer, they want people to understand physical games are what we are supposed to use on Switch mosty.

According to rumors, 32 GB is the base storage so I'm guessing either 32/64 or 32/128. Wii U was 8/32 so I wouldn't be surprised if there will be a 4x storage increase.
 

Matt

Member
Let's deal with it, it's gonna be a 249$ console for the base SKU, it'll have 16/32GB of storage, Tegra Pascal based CPU with raw power of about a Tegra X1 but with less power consumption, and battery life will be about 3/4 hours depending on the game you play and brightness/WiFi settings.
I read someone of you expecting 250GB or 128GB of internal storage, you must be joking, eMMC or especially UFS storage are not as cheap as the PS4/XB1 5200rpm hard drives, so Nintendo can't put there something more than 64GB, and even then that would be for the 299$ "premium model" i expect 32GB at best instead for the base 249$ model.
a big micro SD will be a must have for those who want to go full digital, thankfully their not too expensive and i guess Switch games won't be bigger than 16GB as average.
Also there is a reason if they clearly showed a guy putting a game cartridge into Switch in that short reveal trailer, they want people to understand physical games are what we are supposed to use on Switch mosty.
"Supposed to"? No, not really.
 
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