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North Dakota Governor Orders Standing Rock evacuation

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S

Skellig Gra

Member
pwnage2u said:
The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.
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I wish you would learn some empathy, perhaps if we stole your home illegally you might understand.
 
F

fantomena

Member
Part of Hillarys plattform was to protect Native America lands, rights and resources, wasn't it? This is a good opportunity to show that she meant it. Like, go over there and say something.
 
S

*Splinter

Member
ElectricThunder said:
Given this has been going on for a great many months though, well before even the prospective notion of a Trump presidency even being a periphery thing, well...Obama isn't at all what he's puffed up to be by himself hankering for legacy at the cost of moral justice in the now or his Republican detractors.
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I don't know how you can accuse him of ignoring this for the sake of his legacy. Speaking in support of the protestors would achieve nothing but improve his "legacy"...
 
A

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
The corruption is so ridiculously blatant. This is close to the sort of shit you'd see in a third world country.
 
S

Skellig Gra

Member
fantomena said:
Part of Hillarys plattform was to protect Native America lands, rights and resources, wasn't it? This is a good opportunity to show that she meant it. Like, go over there and say something.
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No that wasn't part of her platform at all. This was her official response about the issue

From the beginning of this campaign, Secretary Clinton has been clear that she thinks all voices should be heard and all views considered in federal infrastructure projects. Now, all of the parties involved—including the federal government, the pipeline company and contractors, the state of North Dakota, and the tribes—need to find a path forward that serves the broadest public interest.
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G

guek

Banned
Hollywood Duo said:
She didn't have one because no one gives a fuck about Native American rights. That should be pretty clear.
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Like I've said before, Sanders is the only major politician I know of who has taken a hardline stance on this and the only one who has actually tried to help but he might as well just be an old man yelling at clouds.
 
D

David Incorporated Esq.

Member
It bothers me how vitriolic the support for the protesters is. Has the police reaction been heavy-handed? Certainly looks like it, but I don't ever see anybody asking what the big deal is, especially since it sounds like the project is halted and under review.
 
M

midramble

Pizza, Bourbon, and Thanos
Applying eminent domain to a native American tribe is a bad look.

Has there been a projected cost of a reroute?
 
P

Plum

Member
David Incorporated Esq. said:
It bothers me how vitriolic the support for the protesters is. Has the police reaction been heavy-handed? Certainly looks like it, but I don't ever see anybody asking what the big deal is, especially since it sounds like the project is halted and under review.
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Your Username and tag points to this being satire and/or sarcasm but I'm not entirely sure.
 
D

David Incorporated Esq.

Member
Plum said:
Your Username and tag points to this being satire and/or sarcasm but I'm not entirely sure.
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It's not. Unfortunately all of the coverage of the incident seems to be focused on the brave protesters against the evil government and police, without ever getting into the actual state of the situation.

Why are the protesters there? Are they blocking current construction activities? What's the status of the legal battle surrounding the construction?

When I look online I find that construction is currently paused and the Army Corps of Engineers is currently doing a larger study of the impact on the pipeline and all of the easements haven't been granted. So at first glance it seems that the protests have served their purpose, and at this point I don't even know why they're there, and more importantly nobody seems intent on saying why, only that they're brave and totally shoving it in the face of the man or something.

This is my shitty way of asking "seriously what gives here?" I hate it when issues become sensationalized.

Fuchsdh said:
The natives aren't being evicted, and eminent domain isn't being used.
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Yeah, apparently they're boring under sacred sites to avoid disturbing them, only building on private land, and are currently halted where there's still a question of environmental impact. The main concern is potential spillage into the river at this point from what I can tell.
 
S

Seth Enosh

Member
theignoramus said:
Is it true that the state government rerouted the pipeline away from the city & closer to Indian land, so that it's tribal waters, not city municipal waters , that will have to absorb the environmental cost of a potential leak from the pipeline?

Sounds like textbook environmental racism to me. Im familiar with these kind of practises in American inner cities.
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My understanding is that this isn't true. The army corps considered the other site and dismissed it as unsafe because it required more crossings and simply wasn't a good idea from an engineering perspective.

Considering the protesters have lost every fight in court (including having it revealed that the tribe refused for over a year to work with the company to identify archeological sites before construction began), this pipeline is getting finished. This just seems like the Bundys without guns - protestors trying to wrest control over federal and private land that doesn't belong to them anymore.

Edit: my reference for the above statements is http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=32086369#p32086369 and related posts over there . They seem more informed than most places on this.
 
D

David Incorporated Esq.

Member
^^^ Thanks!

All the coverage for this seems no better than a petitioner standing outside a grocery store asking people whether they're for or against Native Americans standing up for their rights without explaining anything about the situation.
 
G

guek

Banned
David Incorporated Esq. said:
It's not. Unfortunately all of the coverage of the incident seems to be focused on the brave protesters against the evil government and police, without ever getting into the actual state of the situation.

Why are the protesters there? Are they blocking current construction activities? What's the status of the legal battle surrounding the construction?

When I look online I find that construction is currently paused and the Army Corps of Engineers is currently doing a larger study of the impact on the pipeline and all of the easements haven't been granted. So at first glance it seems that the protests have served their purpose, and at this point I don't even know why they're there, and more importantly nobody seems intent on saying why, only that they're brave and totally shoving it in the face of the man or something.

This is my shitty way of asking "seriously what gives here?" I hate it when issues become sensationalized.



Yeah, apparently they're boring under sacred sites to avoid disturbing them, only building on private land, and are currently halted where there's still a question of environmental impact. The main concern is potential spillage into the river at this point from what I can tell.
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Legality does not grant morality, construction being stalled does not mean construction has been cancelled. That's why protesters are still there and will continue to be there for as long as they can for as long as this pipeline as its currently planned remains under consideration. It's fairly straightforward.
 
D

David Incorporated Esq.

Member
guek said:
Legality does not grant morality, construction being stalled does not mean construction has been cancelled. That's why protesters are still there and will continue to be there for as long as they can for as long as this pipeline as its currently planned remains under consideration. It's fairly straightforward.
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Of course, but neither does it guarantee immorality. I'm saying that the arguments for "the company and government are doing a bad thing" have seemed tenuous, and it's troubling to see so many people throw their support behind the protesters without understanding the situation completely.
 
G

guek

Banned
David Incorporated Esq. said:
Of course, but neither does it guarantee immorality. I'm saying that the arguments for "the company and government are doing a bad thing" have seemed tenuous, and it's troubling to see so many people throw their support behind the protesters without understanding the situation completely.
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You're trivializing what's going on though in order to come to that conclusion. Environmental impact alone is reason enough to understand why protesters are there. It's not just about the natives there but it's also easy to see how they'd be impacted by an eventual spill.
 
D

David Incorporated Esq.

Member
guek said:
You're trivializing what's going on though in order to come to that conclusion. Environmental impact alone is reason enough to understand why protesters are there. It's not just about the natives there but it's also easy to see how they'd be impacted by an eventual spill.
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Of course the environmental impact is cause enough, but the environmental impact is why the Army Corps of Engineers is re-evaluating the route (and why it ended up there in the first place because the original solution wasn't as good). The part that's left out, though, is understanding what the environmental impact actually is. Apparently at the river crossing they're going to be buried well below the river with extra thick shelled pipe and valves at both ends to limit any spillage that could occur. The potential is there for a spill, certainly, but at what point have you mitigated risks "enough" to go ahead with the project?
 
E

ElBoxyBrown

Banned
pwnage2u said:
The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.
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I'm sorry but you have first world problems compared to what the protesters have got.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
Fucking hell...

pwnage2u said:
The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.
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Awww that's terrible... these people fighting for their livelihood should feel ashamed that you can't get some shopping done!
 
P

PenguinPoacher

Member
David Incorporated Esq. said:
It bothers me how vitriolic the support for the protesters is. Has the police reaction been heavy-handed? Certainly looks like it, but I don't ever see anybody asking what the big deal is, especially since it sounds like the project is halted and under review.
Click to expand...

People like to try and say the police have been heavy handed, then fail to mention protestors burning cars, and tires, killing cattle, using homemade Molotov cocktails and pulling out firearms. I actually live here and get a laugh when people try and make the protestors out to be a bunch of peaceful people doing nothing wrong.
 
G

GKSilKamina

Member
This is lousy, and the fact that it continues to be largely ignored is downright insulting. I already donated to the protestors and have been spreading the word to people I know. I'll be sure to donate again once my next payday rolls around.


pwnage2u said:
The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.
Click to expand...


HA!
 
Amory

Amory

Member
For some reason I read this as "North Dakota Governor Orders Standing Ovation for The Rock" and I was like hm
 
C

catbird

Neo Member
Sorry- I didn't mean to post and run this morning!

Media said:
I mean, they bulldozed archeological sites and cultural sites waaaay before they were going to be building there for fear of being shut down. You don't think they are doing something shady?
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Well, if true that is outrageous and awful, to say the least. I am getting most of my info from the statement of facts from one of the court opinions: http://earthjustice.org/sites/default/files/files/order-denying-PI.pdf

Page 35 in particular discusses this, but it's worthwhile reading the entire document.

It seems to provide much more details and context, especially in regards to how this particular tribe did not cooperate. It details how other tribes cooperated, and the pipeline was moved multiple times to avoid artifacts and cultural sites as well as due to environmental concerns. Also, if you (general you - not particularly the person I am responding to) read this document, you will see how the claims that the pipeline was moved due to "white people's complaints" is blatantly misleading. The pipeline was moved multiple times for many reasons, due to citizen comments, environmental, and other logistical concerns.

I have read all of the NPR articles about this, and some op-eds by tribe affiliates.

I feel conflicted because I am not sure where I stand on pipelines, in general, and I think the environmental concerns regarding pipelines have the greatest merit. Unfortunately, I feel a lot of the other issues raised about the DAPL in particular are sensationalized. I'm happy to read more about this, though.

I'm also conflicted because the response to the protesters has been egregious.

The biggest take away to me is the utter lack of required federal oversight for large scale projects like this that can have wide ranging environmental affects.
 
A

ant_

not characteristic of ants at all
InfiniteBento said:
Educate yourself. Your blatant ignorance is showing.
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really? this is how you are going to make your argument? by making ad hominem attacks?

In reality, a lot of people aren't very well educated on this issue. Protesters aren't always right.

First, the land isn't owned by the tribe. Second, the pipeline is a net gain for the environment (the crude oil will be transported regardless - current methods are train & truck). Modern pipelines are safer than any of these techniques. Third, the Army Corp of Engineers put a lot of time and effort into choosing this route. They didn't just plop down a pipeline and see where it lands. They made countless accommodations for local tribes and even attempted to appease this tribe by choosing the current route.

This being said, it doesn't discount the actions of the police and the response to the protestors. It has been despicable and produced needless violence. The protestors are not scott-free either. The whole situation is volatile.

Ultimately, I think the pipeline should be placed. Too many people don't completely understand the topic or pipelines in general.

Here is a link to the court documents I am referencing.
 
K

kame-sennin

Member
pwnage2u said:
The protesters have done nothing but cause trouble here. Blocking main street in Mandan or blocking the entrance to the mall in Bismarck. I wish this would get settled already so we can all move on.
Click to expand...

People are giving you a lot of shit about it, but this is a really good point. If the mall is blocked off, where are people going to buy bottled water?

theignoramus said:
Is it true that the state government rerouted the pipeline away from the city & closer to Indian land, so that it's tribal waters, not city municipal waters , that will have to absorb the environmental cost of a potential leak from the pipeline?

Sounds like textbook environmental racism to me. Im familiar with these kind of practises in American inner cities.
Click to expand...

There's a town a few miles north called Bismark. The pipeline was supposed to cross the river there, but local (white) residents cancelled the plans because of the contamination risk. Now the pipeline is being built downstream from Bismark, but upstream from the Sioux.

David Incorporated Esq. said:
It bothers me how vitriolic the support for the protesters is. Has the police reaction been heavy-handed? Certainly looks like it, but I don't ever see anybody asking what the big deal is, especially since it sounds like the project is halted and under review.
Click to expand...

Pretty bad pun considering that the police did this (NSFL):

http://usuncut.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/arminjury4.png
 
P

PenguinPoacher

Member
kame-sennin said:
People are giving you a lot of shit about it, but this is a really good point. If the mall is blocked off, where are people going to buy bottled water?



There's a town a few miles north called Bismark. The pipeline was supposed to cross the river there, but local (white) residents cancelled the plans because of the contamination risk. Now the pipeline is being built downstream from Bismark, but upstream from the Sioux.



Pretty bad pun considering that the police did this (NSFL):

arminjury4.png
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Maybe stop spreading false information since this was not confirmed to be done by police, it just as likely could be from home made weapons the protestors were making.

Also the proposed route north of bismarck would have to cross 10 miles more of water then the current site, the current site is also following a natural gas line that is already in place.
 
G

guek

Banned
ant_ said:
Second, the pipeline is a net gain for the environment (the crude oil will be transported regardless - current methods are train & truck). Modern pipelines are safer than any of these techniques.
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What the hell are you talking about.

There have been over 3,300 pipeline spills in the US since 2010.

Even if the pipeline was more environmentally safe than trucks or trains, which it demonstrably is NOT by orders of magnitude, there is no scenario where the modern use of fossil fuels is a "net gain for the environment".
 
I

InfiniteBento

Member
ant_ said:
really? this is how you are going to make your argument? by making ad hominem attacks?

In reality, a lot of people aren't very well educated on this issue. Protesters aren't always right.

First, the land isn't owned by the tribe. Second, the pipeline is a net gain for the environment (the crude oil will be transported regardless - current methods are train & truck). Modern pipelines are safer than any of these techniques. Third, the Army Corp of Engineers put a lot of time and effort into choosing this route. They didn't just plop down a pipeline and see where it lands. They made countless accommodations for local tribes and even attempted to appease this tribe by choosing the current route.

This being said, it doesn't discount the actions of the police and the response to the protestors. It has been despicable and produced needless violence. The protestors are not scott-free either. The whole situation is volatile.

Ultimately, I think the pipeline should be placed. Too many people don't completely understand the topic or pipelines in general.

Here is a link to the court documents I am referencing.
Click to expand...

Net gain for our environment? Are you out of your mind?

Do you have any idea what oil and the use of fossil fuel does to our planet at all? The creation of that pipeline may promote temporary work for that area but it will contribute massively towards corporate gain in the oil industry while giving a big middle finger to our already quickly depleting planet.

The people of Bismark didn't want that pipeline near their homes specifically because of contamination on top of this. So they cast the pipeline through a Native American Reservation because fuck those people, right?

Here, you can read a list of pipeline accidents occurring over the past 15 years. Nothing revolving around the oil industry is better for our planet, fossil fuels have done an irreparable amount of damage that cannot be undone and the fact that you can even stand by this because some "Army Corp of Engineers put a lot of time and effort into choosing this route" is really astonishing.
 
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