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[cosmicblizzard]

On the topic of Japan's sexism, it's absolutely there and it's damn bad, but it's not so much about representation in the media as it is shitty everyday life cultural practices and expectations. Women expecting to resign when they're pregnant (especially in a teacher position), massive salary inequality, shitty double standards like the "Christmas Cake" thing, etc. Feminism and fights for equality in Japan are not about media portrayals because really, no one gives a shit. Both genders are catered to very well in almost all popular mediums, with the only one where the ratio is wonky being gaming, and even with that, it's far better than in any other part of the world (seriously, the otome market is HUGE). It's a very "to each their own" mindset that's actually kind of pleasant because that kind of variety actually exists there.

 

[Moosichu]

Look, if I'm not turned on while playing your game, then you are doing something wrong. More games should follow this philosophy.

But in what way is Quite a turn on?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Sure, but so far the only arguments for "it's not problematic" has been "because I'm not offended by it" [+ implied, or outright stated, "and neither should anyone else"] or even "because I like ogling sexy ladies". Like, c'mon.

Context has been a valid argument, which has in term been countered with "the justification is shoddy", which I can counter with "that's open to interpretation".

I say this as someone that DOES think Quiet is objectified (I won't use the term sexist because I feel that's a bit strong). I just won't present my opinion as fact.

 

[foxtrot3d]

But in what way is Quite a turn on?

C'mon man, don't play coy.

Look, if I'm not turned on while playing your game, then you are doing something wrong. More games should follow this philosophy.

We have porno for that sort of thing.

 

[marzlapin]

Kojima draws heavily from Hollywood and his games are made to appeal to an international audience. This isn't a niche franchise tailored exclusively to Japanese tastes, so while the cultural relativism thing is something to consider, it doesn't mean criticism coming from non-Japanese consumers is somehow invalid or inappropriate.

 

[Vex_]

Kojima draws heavily from Hollywood and his games are made to appeal to an international audience. This isn't a niche franchise tailored exclusively to Japanese tastes, so while the cultural relativism thing is something to consider, it doesn't mean criticism coming from non-Japanese consumers is somehow invalid or inappropriate.

Exactly. Over here (in the US) "sexy" is far more tasteful:

These are the type of people who gross more than our president of the US. These are the current pop culture idols.

Spoiler

I'm joking BTW. Or AM I?

 

[Three]

Exactly. Over here (in the US) "sexy" is far more tasteful:


These are the type of people who gross more than our president of the US. These are the current pop culture idols.

Spoiler

I'm joking BTW. Or AM I?

I actually think objectification is far more prevalent in the US than in Japan but sexism is far worse in Japan.

 

[Mooreberg]

You just have to accept that art can be heavily critiqued, especially when that art is incredibly problematic and demeans a gender.

Criticism is a product, and people respond to it, just as critics respond to the piece of work in question. There seems to be some breakdown in the logic of how conversation and debate work. If the critic can be held up as infallible and beyond reproach, than so can the initial content creator.

 

[Vex_]

I actually think objectification is far more prevalent in the US than in Japan but sexism is far worse in Japan.

You raise a good point. Many don't realise those two words mean something completely different.

Good observation.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

IIRC, like the greater internet dickwad theory, this comic has been debunked, or at least heavily criticized by women saying it isn't what they want.

I love how you say "this comic has been debunked" as if it is some sort of essay in a scientific journal.

 

[JackelZXA]

I don't know why people think there's something more to her character beyond the tits. She falls in puppy love with Big Boss. That's her story. And if it wasn't obvious enough from the embarrassing cutscenes, Ocelot straight up says it. Pure wish fulfilment for the player; "She loves you because you're so awesome! Bro, check those tits, bro!".

I still don't know why she doesn't communicate. Kojima explains why she won't talk, which is fine, but why won't she write messages? Use Morse code, draw pictures, play charades, ask Code Talker to talk for her, etc etc etc? It sure as hell isn't because she has nothing to say; remember when she finds a soldier with the parasites and instead of warning anyone she decides to fucking stab him in the teeth like a lunatic? Pick up a fucking pencil. Kojima wanted to continue the whole 'words that kill' theme, but non-verbal forms of communication don't fit with that so he just ignored them and hoped nobody would notice.

What are you talking about? She CLEARLY writes a happy birthday message to Big Boss using her sniper rifle! (There are some plot holes in that game for sure, though I'd say saying she's "nothing but tits" is a little bit reductive and a little bit more hyperbolic.)

Minor Quibble: I don't think this one fits in with the others.

Right? The closest we ever got was a Kaz beach scene. Nothing on the level of Quiet or any other woman in the series.

There's also the sexy shower fist fight between Big Boss and Kaz in Paz's tapes, though that's just a description I'd argue it's the biggest yaoi moment in the series.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I love how you say "this comic has been debunked" as if it is some sort of essay in a scientific journal.

You mean it's not!?

 

[JackelZXA]

(Not really an arguement, just responding to things I wanted to respond to)

I would even argue that the speedo is for comedy purposes more than titillation, Snake and Raiden shirtless does not in anyway shape or from=Quiet's sexualization.

Sigint should have let snake take his pants off too back during Operation Snake Eater. =(

On a more serious note: I do think that some of the raiden/raikov stuff in the games has approached yaoi levels here or there. (Some of the Volgin implications and ball grabbing in 3, the fights with vamp in MGS4...specifically the moment where Raiden penetrates Vamp with his vibrating blade while struggling and squirting white liquid all over him that Vamp licks up in an earlier scene as the camera pans up his glory trail, and then at the end they lock eyes as time slows down briefly in a yaoi embrace)

at least...that's what I got from that scene in act 2...

....


Some of Quiet's stuff is about as bad as the B&B squad, but I'd say those scenes in MGS4 were worse about it. (And they don't even bother to justify it there)

That's quite literally exactly what he did, there's a reason why the end isn't nude despite having the same powers as Quiet. Because Kojima doesn't wanna see an older man nude, he'd rather see an idealized woman nearly nude. Men are allowed to wear normal clothing. We never see closeups of Snake's glistening abs.

Quiet had her lungs burned out was the 'reason'. That's fine as an idea, but it's not a reason for pervo camera work and never wearing regular pants or a low cut tank top. (Back and chest being the areas that would be important to breathing, since that's where the remains of her lungs would be. They could have done more without just going for the one thing)

I said it earlier, but I wished Quiet had more outfit choices that matched her narrative reasoning while still being cool looking. The torn up lingerie feels like something that would make sense for one scene, and I feel they could have gotten some mileage over doing more with that. Having a scene where she materializes a different outfit using her parasites (and questioning whether she's actually wearing clothes or if those are just parasite magic already) would have been a neat way to at least play with the concept of the character.

"men are allowed to wear normal clothing" you can give quiet the XOF or Sniper Wolf uniforms eventually (Though they unfortunately aren't reflected in cutscenes, as there are like no cutscenes out in the field with Quiet) but you can play the whole game as snake without a shirt on, if you want. I highly recommend wearing a shirtless outfit before triggering the raining scene at the base. It rounds out the mood of it a little bit and has a nice feel to it.

Kojima doesn't make attempts at comedy in MGSV's main plot. He has effectively mixed humor and seriousness before, but he utterly fails at doing so with MGSV. No one was arguing that there's never a good way to mix seriousness and comedy, we're just tired of the "MGS is supposed to be silly" nonsense while the creator would probably be insulted if he heard people using that as an excuse for his mistakes because it's incredibly obviously that he at least wanted his magnum opus to be taken seriously.

Not entirely. He's admitted to throwing stuff into his games for the sake of being weird and funny. I'm not targeting a thing in MGSV, but like....here's one: In MGS2 when you're sneaking into Shell 2 Kojima wanted a scene where after the guard pees on raiden's head he turns around and takes a shit (i assume off camera) but his team told him it was too much. (Also keep in mind, he turned the guy who craps his pants, Johnny, into a main character while still having goofy potty humor in actual cutscenes)

I'd say Kojima would want the games to resonate with audiences, rather than "taken seriously" if we're talking specific concepts. Taken seriously would imply a lack of confidence or "trying hard" in general, and I always feel like Kojima has never not seen himself as a master of his craft.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Quiet can't wear normal clothes for story reasons.

Until you buy her some.

Then that's fine, I guess?

 

[PtM]

Quiet can't wear normal clothes for story reasons.

Until you buy her some.

Then that's fine, I guess?

Games do break realism/immersion for gameplay purposes on a regular basis.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Games do break realism/immersion for gameplay purposes on a regular basis.

Then the story reason was junk in the first place. Hiding behind it as sacrosanct when it was as flexible as anything else, if not more so because of its ridiculousness, is ridiculous in and of itself.

 

[DeadOnions]

Terrible design and a character that made me stop following the story. People can try and defend the look all they want but what about the camera angles and such?

 

[JackelZXA]

What's shiny about this outfit?

Another poor comparison. Especially since BB is mostly seen and advertised wearing a standard military uniform over his sneaking suit. And yet again, it's false equivalence to bring up Raiden's naked section which is very short and meant for humor.

It's more of a Solid Snake thing than a Big Boss thing. (Start of act 2 in mgs4 is just a slow pan up snake's gyrating ass as he thrusts it up and down at the camera in a slow crawl)

 

[Langdon Alger]

I agree so much with you OP wish she didn't existed in the game. Makes the game look like it was made for 12 year old kids.

I agree that Quiet is an embarrassing character. But there's a lot of stuff in that game that makes it look like it was made for 12 year olds. That magic fire-man for example. Or those magic skull guys. The game is completely ludicrous on every level.

 

[Earthpainting]

I think Quiet's looking worse in retrospect than when you're actually playing it. She was pretty cool and probably the most reliable AI partner I've had in a game. She always had my back, and never had to be babysat. I even felt her quietness worked well with how Venom Snake's transition into a mostly silent protagonist. It's just a damn shame how she was wasted on exploitative design and direction. The pandering felt patronising, distracting, and ultimately did the character a disservice. The team probably was aware of it, because they made the "ashamed of your words and deeds" remark, and tried to bake all sorts of excuses and rationalisations into the script.

Now that we have some distance from the game, a lot of what people remember her for is the questionable stuff, and that's unfortunate. I wouldn't want Quiet to have been cut, but she definitely could have used some retooling.

 

[jfoul]

That "secret" shower scene with Big Boss was weird man.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

I think Quiet's looking worse in retrospect than when you're actually playing it. She was pretty cool and probably the most reliable AI partner I've had in a game. She always had my back, and never had to be babysat.

Always there to help out with head shots haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1RB75Bxc2Y

Or, well, throat shots, as it was.

 

[Mooreberg]

Quiet can't wear normal clothes for story reasons.

Until you buy her some.

Then that's fine, I guess?

There are no "normal" clothes though. A world class sniper under the employ of Diamond Dogs, wearing an XOF uniform, is fundamentally abnormal.

 

[JackelZXA]

Always there to help out with head shots haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1RB75Bxc2Y

Or, well, throat shots, as it was.

Or killing dudes I was about to fulton. wtfffff

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Or killing dudes I was about to fulton. wtfffff

Haha that's Pequod =(

 

[Vex_]

Haha that's Pequod =(

Holy shitttttttt all this time? After ~90 hours with that game, I didn't know they let you counter boss characters/parasite soldiers wow! And even parry flash bangs??!!!

Damnnnnnnnnn

 

[G-Fex]

That's weird, did no one whine about the stupid ass beauty and the beast squad?

 

[foxuzamaki]

I would even argue that the speedo is for comedy purposes more than titillation, Snake and Raiden shirtless does not in anyway shape or from=Quiet's sexualization.

.

Raiden was quite literally made for female eyes tho, if there is a scene where he appears shirtless, or better yet, completely nude holding nothing but his junk he is specifically being objectified.

 

[timetokill]

That's weird, did no one whine about the stupid ass beauty and the beast squad?

Yes, many called that out (specifically the photo mode) out at the time.

 

[Surface of Me]

There are many games without "embarrassing" characters. Play those. I dont see why it being AAA means it has to be perfect for everyone.

 

[Earthpainting]

That's weird, did no one whine about the stupid ass beauty and the beast squad?

I sure whined about the photo mode. It was pretty gross to be able to tranq women until they were drugged enough take saucy pictures of. Juxtaposing it with Drebin telling you their tragic backstories felt even more out of place.

 

[JackelZXA]

Raiden was quite literally made for female eyes tho, if there is a scene where he appears shirtless, or better yet, completely nude holding nothing but his junk he is specifically being objectified.

Honestly like....what it is is the presentation that makes it crappy. I feel like in the last decade i see way more content in manga/anime/games that I wouldn't have seen outside of strictly H-material in the 90's. There's a huge amount of "get in there" camerawork these days that you didn't really see 10 years ago and I really don't like it.

I feel like just....I don't want to start posting images and I don't want to over-describe shit, but like....okay so in episode 4 of Tenchi Muyo! Ryoko basically spends most of it fully nude, and there's a bit at Ayeka's expense too, but like...it still feels like a human scene. The characters are fully aware of the whole shebang and the cinematography isn't betraying what the scene is for the sake of "pushing it for the viewer's sake". Nothing in that part feels out of place in any way. You aren't seeing porn shots, despite the over-abundance of nudity in the scene. It feels like the characters are being taken seriously by the creators, rather than undermining them and blindly using techniques that should be reserved for actual pornography.

Bayonetta gets away with it because it's parody and that's fine, but using that shit for the sake of using it makes it feel like you accidentally started watching a porno in the middle of this other thing, and THAT'S what makes the Quiet stuff feel gross. (porn is super gross because its SUPPOSED to be exploitation, throwing that in other shit is just making it feel like porn and fucking hell I feel like there's been a total breakdown of awareness over what that ACTUALLY is across the board.)

What is your point?



People had issues with that but also society has become less accepting of shit like this.

People were totally calling out how shitty the Beauty forms were in like every review and how it was pointless and did nothing for the plot other than some out of place titillation that went too far. These days that style of titillation in "regular material" is just not as much of a left field thing. It's easier to spot. That's kind of what I meant with this post. Titillation has become trashy, and THAT is gross.

All the other members of Diamond Dogs aren't decked in streetwalker gear tho.

I think what they were getting at is that the fact that the only other outfit you get makes no narrative sense? I think they should have done something better for it. Giving her some cargo pants would have probably changed the feeling of alot of those scenes, tied-top and all. (I'd suggest a few other things, but that'd be kind of a big post)

 

[Johndoey]

On the topic of Japan's sexism, it's absolutely there and it's damn bad, but it's not so much about representation in the media as it is shitty everyday life cultural practices and expectations. Women expecting to resign when they're pregnant (especially in a teacher position), massive salary inequality, shitty double standards like the "Christmas Cake" thing, etc. Feminism and fights for equality in Japan are not about media portrayals because really, no one gives a shit. Both genders are catered to very well in almost all popular mediums, with the only one where the ratio is wonky being gaming, and even with that, it's far better than in any other part of the world (seriously, the otome market is HUGE). It's a very "to each their own" mindset that's actually kind of pleasant because that kind of variety actually exists there.

What is your point?

That's weird, did no one whine about the stupid ass beauty and the beast squad?

People had issues with that but also society has become less accepting of shit like this.

There are many games without "embarrassing" characters. Play those. I dont see why it being AAA means it has to be perfect for everyone.

So again should we just ignore it? Why? If I see an issue with something best to speak up yeah?

There are no "normal" clothes though. A world class sniper under the employ of Diamond Dogs, wearing an XOF uniform, is fundamentally abnormal.

All the other members of Diamond Dogs aren't decked in streetwalker gear tho.

A Japanese-game has scantily clad female character with fan service scenes! Such horrible new information!

Stop the presses! We got a new headline, the people must know!

Let the Japanese make what they want. If you don't want it, don't support it. Let them sort out their own culture.

People getting up in arms and saying that it's offensive to them don't live in the culture that the product/art came from.

They like objectifying both sexes plenty in different levels from creation to creation.

Well this is just flat out pretty stupid, this is a media product with a worldwide release of course it'll grab flak. If they didn't want it to be judged by other cultures standards they should've fucking released outside of Japan yeah?

i'm not saying they're equal, and i'm not discrediting the awful shit about quiet and such... but it doesn't change the fact that it happened. i guarantee you lots of people found that erotic, even if that wasn't the "intention" of it

Grab me up some stats on that. Do a survey. But besides that the actual intention of Quiet's scenes are to be erotic so whats your point it bringing it up.

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

It all gets a little bit 'outrage culture' for me. Are the same people complaining avoiding porn too? Or anything that includes objectifying a person? I'm not digging out anybody specifically just curious as to the thought processes of those who take offence or find this type of thing embarrassing.

Generally I don't think portraying women purely as material to masturbated to is alright at least not in what is supposed to be a semi-serious story written by a grown ass man.

 

[SomTervo]

Its not sexism. No one was hurt or discriminated against because of some superfluous game character. Its sex for the sake of sex, sure. But that isn't wrong its just a sensibility that you disagree with.

Okay, here we go again:

- sexism (active) is when somebody acts with a prejudice against women. Something they say. Something they do.

- structural sexism is invisible. It is the unspoken beliefs or patterns of behaviour within a culture – that women shouldn't sleep around, that women aren't capable of being bosses, etc. Things which aren't actively stated but are oppressive (far more prevalent in the past than it is today – but it's still present)

Quiet's existence isn't actively sexist (arguably her rape scene is because it objectifies her while a very serious thing is happening) but she is a symptom of structural sexism. She shows how the developers think of women differently, in an inherent sense.

She is a symptom of structural sexism because she (the only prominent female character in the game) is objectified while none of the male characters are. If some of the men were, too, it would be better. But the way it is, it betrays how Kojima and the studio see women differently from men – fair game for being objectified while men must be closely tied to reality and are free from objectification.

Two questions about this.

1: Doesn't the existence of those first four games (though I have heard people with sexism complaints about Bloodborne) show that the industry is moving forward? We're entering a realm where everyone can have a game they like, regardless of sex, gender, race, or age.

The industry is definitely moving forward. 10-15 years ago I don't think there would have even been a discussion about Quiet. Now it is rightly cause for alarm.

Also Sarkeesian is bearing the standard for the movement – but her actual arguments are mainly bullshit. I totally love that she's making waves about it, but I can barely watch a single one of her videos. The ends justify the means in this case, I suppose.

 

[DrunkDan]

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

It all gets a little bit 'outrage culture' for me. Are the same people complaining avoiding porn too? Or anything that includes objectifying a person? I'm not digging out anybody specifically just curious as to the thought processes of those who take offence or find this type of thing embarrassing.

 

[SomTervo]

Raiden was quite literally made for female eyes tho, if there is a scene where he appears shirtless, or better yet, completely nude holding nothing but his junk he is specifically being objectified.

The camera never pans slowly over his butt, bulge or muscles. He was made to be 'beautiful' but is never sexualised. Arguably the only time he is sexualised is when objects around the room cover up his genitalia – which is for comic effect.

There is one bit as well, right before he meets Snake IIRC, when his butt is in the forefront of the camera. But the camera isn't focused on it, IIRC it's out of focus and he's walking away.

So:

> it happens once to Raiden in the entire game, for a couple of seconds and it's not the focal centre of the camerawork. To Quiet, it happens multiple times throughout the game - over tens of hours - and the camera specifically places her tits, ass or body as the very central focal point. Worse, the does interactive actions responding to this
> Quiet is never treated with humour - never - while Raiden's nudity is (at least partially) treated as comical

 

[JackelZXA]

The camera never pans slowly over his butt, bulge or muscles. He was made to be 'beautiful' but is never sexualised. Arguably the only time he is sexualised is when objects around the room cover up his genitalia – which is for comic effect.

There is one bit as well, right before he meets Snake IIRC, when his butt is in the forefront of the camera. But the camera isn't focused on it, IIRC it's out of focus and he's walking away.

So:

> it happens once to Raiden in the entire game, for a couple of seconds and it's not the focal centre of the camerawork. To Quiet, it happens multiple times throughout the game - over tens of hours - and the camera specifically places her tits, ass or body as the very central focal point. Worse, the does interactive actions responding to this
> Quiet is never treated with humour - never - while Raiden's nudity is (at least partially) treated as comical

There is that one scene in MGS4 where the camera is panning slowly up snake's gyrating ass while he crawls through the jungle, but yeah i talked about this is one of my posts about how I feel like there's just....lots of this style of thing out there more now when shit used to be more....regular about titillation stuff.

 

[Johndoey]

I think what they were getting at is that the fact that the only other outfit you get makes no narrative sense? I think they should have done something better for it. Giving her some cargo pants would have probably changed the feeling of alot of those scenes, tied-top and all. (I'd suggest a few other things, but that'd be kind of a big post)

I would question why the writer felt she had to be dressed like that in the first place yes? I mean this character didn't float fully formed from the ether. When the person that created the character also created the narrative reasons for the characters shitty outfit then "narrative reasons" seems like poor justification.

 

[SomTervo]

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

It all gets a little bit 'outrage culture' for me. Are the same people complaining avoiding porn too? Or anything that includes objectifying a person? I'm not digging out anybody specifically just curious as to the thought processes of those who take offence or find this type of thing embarrassing.

Please don't, Dan.

The OP said "embarrassing". But personally, I don't find Quiet embarrassing at all. I think she has good motives and is generally well written (the 'she could have written things down' plot hole aside).

However, she is problematic. Not embarrassing; problematic. This is nothing to do with 'outrage culture' here. She is symptomatic of pervasive structural sexism which is still very much prevalent today (greatly reduced, but still prevalent). Basically, the creators of the game clearly see her in an inherently different light to the rest of the cast – who are male – even if all of the others are in the same line of work and operate in the same context. She is treated differently for no reason. Or rather, because of her gender.

She is so problematic, in fact, that it can be embarrassing when a non-gaming friend or family member walks into the room while she's rolling around in the rain. I don't personally feel embarrassed by her, but it's arguably embarrassing for how videogames are perceived more broadly.

There is that one scene in MGS4 where the camera is panning slowly up snake's gyrating ass while he crawls through the jungle, but yeah i talked about this is one of my posts about how I feel like there's just....lots of this style of thing out there more now when shit used to be more....regular about titillation stuff.

There are moments like that, yeah, but there is nothing (not even in the rest of the series re females) that compares to the constant cleavage, butt shots and sexy movements of Quiet throughout MGSV. Her portrayal is just on another level.

Also I don't recall Snake's old, ageing butt being portrayed as 'sexy' in this context – but I'm a hetero male so I'm not in a position to comment on that really!

 

[RawNuts]

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

The same thought often crosses my mind as well. I believe it's mainly that most of us take such interest in the medium, that we may tend to try to validate it to ourselves and others. Given the history of this medium being mainly marketed to young boys, its harmful to its image, and that stigma may reflect poorly on those of us who have a passion for the medium and want to see it taken seriously. A lot of us want gaming to be seen as "mature" or a respected art form, perhaps to validate our interest in it in some way.

Another discussion I'm seeing a lot of through the thread is the, "well male characters are sexualized in the series too" reasoning. Why does this matter? Does it somehow validate any sexualizing of characters when both genders are represented? For that matter, why is sexualization seen so negatively, and does it actually go hand-in-hand with objectification here?



Personally though, I think no one should ever be embarrassed by a character in a game. If Kojima wanted titillation in his game, so be it; though I can't forgive him for acting like she was something more with the "ashamed of your words and deeds" nonsense, as if the character was written with so much more depth than she was.
A character like Quiet doesn't devalue the entire medium, just like a film buff wouldn't be embarrassed by Sharknado's existence.

> Quiet is never treated with humour - never - while Raiden's nudity is (at least partially) treated as comical

Even when the camera unnecessarily zooms and focuses on her particular bits? I found the absurdity of how it's handled to be quite humorous, I'm surprised there weren't any nosebleeds; no way could you actually animate scenes like that without self-aware chuckling the whole time you're working.

 

[Roufianos]

As bold as your statement my seem, I whole heartedly agree. It's the first time I've ever played a game that I would have been embarrassed for my parents to see.

I can't think of a character that's ever been so trivialised by objectification.

 

[Insane Metal]

Bayonetta.

 

[Markoman]

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

It all gets a little bit 'outrage culture' for me. Are the same people complaining avoiding porn too? Or anything that includes objectifying a person? I'm not digging out anybody specifically just curious as to the thought processes of those who take offence or find this type of thing embarrassing.

Wow, great post. I sometimes get the same impression. Things haven't really changed: when religion was still a thing in the western world, people considered everything named 'sin' a taboo. In todays world political correctness seems to be the force that is driving people's ethics. The sad thing is that this is the same kind of pack-mentality. Going by todays standards it is still a 'sin' to masturbate although everyone is doing it. Man, Nietzsche was right...

 

[Markoman]

Bayonetta.

 

[JackelZXA]

I would question why the writer felt she had to be dressed like that in the first place yes? I mean this character didn't float fully formed from the ether. When the person that created the character also created the narrative reasons for the characters shitty outfit then "narrative reasons" seems like poor justification.

Cynicism is a slippery slope. Cynicism shouldn't just be for cynicism's sake. You don't want cynicism that JUST puts up creative barriers. Any idea can be good and interesting if it's pulled off well. Quiet needing to breath through the skin on her upper body is a fine idea, but to make that interesting you need to go in a different direction than what they ended up doing. They just didn't do it WELL. They were masturbatory in their portrayal of her and that's where the idea fell apart. It was a shit show, not a shit idea.

I think it would have been interesting if her not talking was a result of the therapy, if her skin had visible parasites as she was breathing, if she didn't just have torn up lingerie for no actual reason, if the camera wasn't treating the game like a porn shoot every third time she's on screen, if they didn't just have fuckers gawking at her in the shower with NO reprimand from their superiors that were RIGHT THERE. It was a failure of execution, top to bottom. That's what was embarrassing about Quiet.

There are moments like that, yeah, but there is nothing (not even in the rest of the series re females) that compares to the constant cleavage, butt shots and sexy movements of Quiet throughout MGSV. Her portrayal is just on another level.

Also I don't recall Snake's old, ageing butt being portrayed as 'sexy' in this context – but I'm a hetero male so I'm not in a position to comment on that really!

Thinking about it, I don't think you're able to throw on the young snake headcamo for that scene, because it switches you back to default facecamo every act start, and that's kind of a bummer.

And I'd say the B&B squad was worse. Despite being fully clothed, they were WAY worse than Quiet even. Meanwhile Fortune wears a leotard in MGS2, but it ends up looking cool on her (emphasizing her muscle, rather than her ass) Again, it's a matter of execution, not the concept.

 

[Veal]

Whenever this type of thread comes up they always make me wonder if people are embarrassed/offended because they genuinely are or simply because they think they should be.

It all gets a little bit 'outrage culture' for me. Are the same people complaining avoiding porn too? Or anything that includes objectifying a person? I'm not digging out anybody specifically just curious as to the thought processes of those who take offence or find this type of thing embarrassing.

My thoughts too. While they definitely could have handled her better, she is definitely not "the most embarrassing character in gaming". Not by a fucking long shot.

 

[00ich]

You just have to accept that art can be heavily critiqued, especially when that art is incredibly problematic and demeans a gender.

There is no major problem proven. All I could find is that sexual objectification in video games is as problematic as violence in video games. Does it really influence people in their everyday life? No one knows.

Also Quite's portrayal does not demean a gender, it demeans Quite, which has no consequences outside of your ability to engage with her character in MGS.

Please don't think you have anything more than a opinion, objectively it is hard to argue that it is proven that sexual objectification in video games causes any harm.

 

[YianGaruga]

Please don't, Dan.

The OP said "embarrassing". But personally, I don't find Quiet embarrassing at all. I think she has good motives and is generally well written (the 'she could have written things down' plot hole aside).

However, she is problematic. Not embarrassing; problematic. This is nothing to do with 'outrage culture' here. She is symptomatic of pervasive structural sexism which is still very much prevalent today (greatly reduced, but still prevalent). Basically, the creators of the game clearly see her in an inherently different light to the rest of the cast – who are male – even if all of the others are in the same line of work and operate in the same context. She is treated differently for no reason. Or rather, because of her gender.

She is so problematic, in fact, that it can be embarrassing when a non-gaming friend or family member walks into the room while she's rolling around in the rain. I don't personally feel embarrassed by her, but it's arguably embarrassing for how videogames are perceived more broadly.

Honest questions, I'm genuinely trying to understand other people's views on this issue, so please bear with me.

I personally like Quiet. I think she fits into the silly MGS universe and I wouldn't want it any other way. To me, she's just another ridiculous MGS character. Does that make me sexist? I often want my games to be as unrealistic and silly as possible, I want to be surprised by things that are completely ridiculous and make me say "wtf". Quiet does that perfectly.

Would a solution be to have more sexualized male characters? Does it have to be in the same game, or would it be enough to have a different game/series that caters to that audience? Does every game have to be acceptable for everyone? If Quiet was replaced with a male almost naked sniper and the game zoomed in on his crotch, would that be preferable? Would including a larger amount of non-sexualized female characters that are on the same level as the protagonist be enough to excuse Quiet's inclusion?

I think people that are embarrassed by Quiet in MGSV are losing sight of the fact that it's supposed to be fantasy. It's supposed to be unreal. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't always have to reflect reality. Quiet is supposed to cater to a specific audience because there are people who enjoy this stuff. I think that's okay.

I can understand that people see her as problematic, as part of a larger issue, but is the only solution to the problem to make characters like Quiet more grounded, more realistic and less silly and sexualized or remove them completely? Am I part of the problem for liking her and not minding 3D boobs in my games?

 

[Zack Zavage]

I really like the concept of the character and find the relationship between her and Venom to be interesting, but I gotta admit she made me feel a bit uncomfortable on my way through the game.

The presentation of her is just too much imo. I usually don't have a problem with nudity in videogames, but in this game it felt downright awkward and out of place most of the time.
Probably mainly because of her very realistic appearance. The way she moves and looks at you is almost intimidating, especially in the chopper, making you feel like a damn pervert when eye contact does happen. That is, if you decide to turn on the first person view...

Many times did it make think about how Stefanie Joosten felt during those motion captures and what she thought about it. I don't know much about her but my guess is she wasn't exactly comfortable with it.

At the same time I respect Kojima's decisions and yet I'm still trying to figure out what to think about this.

 

[Steve.1981]

I don't like Metal Gear Solid and haven't played Phantom Pain. I'm also quite a shy, almost prudish person. Overtly sexual imagery is not really my thing. This is just my little opinion on the matter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with some bare skin and I don't think there's anything embarrassing about a character in any artistic piece of work expressing their sexuality, as Quiet does in the videos people have posted in this thread. It's been stated that she fancies the player character and so she flirts outrageously with him. There is nothing wrong with that, imo.

The thing that annoys me is that Quiet seems to be yet another female character in a game that is very strongly objectified sexually and doesn't really have anything else going on beside that. I'm tired of this. I'd love to see more main female characters in games with some actual depth to their personalities. I don't think it would have been hard to tweak Quiet's design slightly and come up with a more rounded overall character. She could have still been a sexual person, but she didn't have to be so overly defined by it.