Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Well you could read several of my posts in this thread. >_> This stuff isn't exactly up for interpretation btw. It's quite clear what the intent is.
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Now that the dust is settled, Quiet's probably the most embarrassing gaming character
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
- Start date
JudgeBooty
Neo Member
I'm sure this'll sound incredibly far fetched and ridiculous to some of you people but...
She's just a video game character, in a video game.
Not that she had any say in what she had to wear, I made those decisions! So I forced her into an XOF uniform so I could feel better about all this hypersexualization.
She's just a video game character, in a video game.
Not that she had any say in what she had to wear, I made those decisions! So I forced her into an XOF uniform so I could feel better about all this hypersexualization.
Way to misinterpret my post, I specifically mentioned your assertion of "sexualized tourture" and her outfit being "ridiculous" as things up to the viewers interpretation. Obviously I already know she's sexualized you'd probably get that if you properly read my posts. But the argument is based around her intent/purpose as a character and I'm more than sure that it was a bit more than to be titillating.
We can talk all day about whether the intentions of him and his team came across well, or whether internet forum posters just feel offended by her. That's not what I care to take part in. I just find it embarrassing that it's she's seen as embarrassing. I dont find DOA beach volleyball to be very embarrassing. It panders and so does quiet but I still find her to be an actual character in the game other than a piece of sex meat a lot of this thread seems to want to distill her to be.
JudgeBooty;190040459 said:
It's always suspect to me how people always pull the "it's just video games" argument when women and people of colour are clearly being oppressed. It's never (primarily white) male characters, because they're never treated like this by game developers.
Male character fan service is Nathan Drake's buttoned down henley, or Ryu's abs. But a shirtless lumberjack doesn't compare to a woman showering in a cage and rubbing her body in the rain. Or Quiet's awful backstory about "female empowerment" that only a man could have thought of.
I'm playing catch-up in this thread right now so I'm not going to go back and quote people, but I noticed someone arguing that the resolution of the attempted rape scene represented Quiet taking charge of her sexuality. It doesn't, because first of all the rape is not about sexuality. Those soldiers aren't going to rape her because she's just so sexy, they're doing it to degrade her, to demonstrate their power over her, to put her in her place. Rape is sexual assault, but the sexuality of the victim is immaterial other than being an easy target for someone looking to inflict the most psychological damage possible. The scene is there to develop Quiet's "badass" image in the most tired, clichéd way possible for a "strong female character". It accomplishes nothing else.
Secondly, a LOT of the objectification of Quiet is coming from the camera itself or however you want to anthropomorphize it (the cameraman? Kojima? The player?). It's coming from outside the fourth wall and therefore Quiet has no recourse against it. She can only stab people who exist inside the game; whoever or whatever is outside the fourth wall is out of her reach. I'm starting to wonder if (some) straight male players have a hard time really understanding the degree to which this goes on because it seems more natural for them to want to look at someone who looks like Quiet. The camerawork is really noticeable and jarring when you, the player, are not sexually attracted to her. It feels kinda like someone is grabbing your head and shoving it into her cleavage or something. If a male player who was attracted to Quiet went back and watched all her scenes with a model swapped Snake in a speedo instead, would they notice how blatant it is?
Obviously there are plenty of male posters in this thread who did notice, but plenty who don't seem to draw a distinction between objectification coming from inside the game (e.g. the soldiers in the shower scene) vs. "outside" (the camera).
Also lore justifications for her costume are dumb because it's a made up problem that you could easily make up a solution to. I mean, if your universe has iDroid level tech in 1984, what's stopping you from inventing a made up fabric that's opaque yet completely permeable by air and UV? You could dress her in literally anything and invent a reason why it makes sense. Even if you didn't want to invent a fabric, you could dress her like this and still have about the same percentage of her skin exposed:
They made a deliberate design choice that's 100% aesthetic and about fanservice.
Secondly, a LOT of the objectification of Quiet is coming from the camera itself or however you want to anthropomorphize it (the cameraman? Kojima? The player?). It's coming from outside the fourth wall and therefore Quiet has no recourse against it. She can only stab people who exist inside the game; whoever or whatever is outside the fourth wall is out of her reach. I'm starting to wonder if (some) straight male players have a hard time really understanding the degree to which this goes on because it seems more natural for them to want to look at someone who looks like Quiet. The camerawork is really noticeable and jarring when you, the player, are not sexually attracted to her. It feels kinda like someone is grabbing your head and shoving it into her cleavage or something. If a male player who was attracted to Quiet went back and watched all her scenes with a model swapped Snake in a speedo instead, would they notice how blatant it is?
Obviously there are plenty of male posters in this thread who did notice, but plenty who don't seem to draw a distinction between objectification coming from inside the game (e.g. the soldiers in the shower scene) vs. "outside" (the camera).
Also lore justifications for her costume are dumb because it's a made up problem that you could easily make up a solution to. I mean, if your universe has iDroid level tech in 1984, what's stopping you from inventing a made up fabric that's opaque yet completely permeable by air and UV? You could dress her in literally anything and invent a reason why it makes sense. Even if you didn't want to invent a fabric, you could dress her like this and still have about the same percentage of her skin exposed:
They made a deliberate design choice that's 100% aesthetic and about fanservice.
On the note of developer intention and Bayonetta, here's an interesting and relevant quote from the Bayonetta art book:
---
I don't think I've ever heard someone use "lore" as a major piece of evidence in the endless argument over Bayonetta's character.
Hideki Kamiya said:
---
I don't think I've ever heard someone use "lore" as a major piece of evidence in the endless argument over Bayonetta's character.
Camp Freddie
Member
While 'embarassing' is obviously subjective, it sums up my feeling exactly.
Fanservice in general is embarassing, because it's extremely condecending. And for the benefit of others in this thread, I was mildly offended by it, and so was my wife - but it's really more of an embarrassment thing.
It's especially bad in Metal Gear. While MGS has always been wierd (the photosynthesis thing is fine), it's never used it's wierdness to put a lapdancer in the game. It's the 4th wall stuff that makes it so much worse. She is literally lapdancing in the helicopter and the game never misses an opportunity to objectify the character. Kojima could've got away with a sexy half-naked photosynthesising character, if we weren't forced to endure the shower scenes and lapdances. Or if we weren't forced to be the mute protagonist who stands around indifferently watching while the woman that saved his life is leered at and jeered by a bunch of arsehole soldiers. Or if there weren't some gratuitous rape and erotic torture scenes.
Quiet really does tick all the boxes for a terribly written piece of fanservice. I'm about 50 hours in and haven't reached the rape scene yet, but holy fuck does that double down on the terrible writing. You do not show how badass a woman is by having them nearly raped. It's a terrible cliche and well, you just fucking don't.
I'm not sorry that we live in a society where mute women who do nothing but pout and stick their boobs and arse in your face while wearing "erotically" torn lingerie is generally seen as cringe-worthy and embarrassing by anyone who isn't a teenage boy. It's a phase of horniness that most guys go through, before 'growing up' and preferring more nuanced characters. Teenage me probably wouldn't spend the flight sequences organising research and combat missions, but I'm a grown-ass man now.
Some content is just seen as immature, and gratuitous tits and ass is a perfect example.
For what it's worth, I find the voyeuristic camera angles in Bayonetta to be rather embarrassing, but she's mostly fine. Other than the camera angles, she's the subject instead of the object, and her sexiness and humour fits the game's overall theme and tone.
poodaddy
Member
I just wanna drop some friendly advice here and say calling people morons isn't a great way to get your point across or to keep your gaf account. Just advice.
On topic: holy shit I missed a lot of topic here. I have an idea here that may or may not settle things a bit more. If you like Quiet fine, and if you think she's a sexist design,(she is) then that's fine, but how about this. Can we all agree that it'd be really great to see some more respectful and realistic depictions of female characterization and strength in Kojima's new game that he's making with Sony? I mean that's just progress ya know. I think one way to do this would be to actually get some forward thinking women in Kojima's writing department and perhaps even consult a notable feminist in the creation and representation of his female characters just like ND did for The Last of Us. I mean it's just something that would be a win win all around ya know? Can we agree, as one big huggy lovey cuddly gaf family that it'd be amazing to have Kojima game design showcased in a project that is more inclusive and appealing to multiple demographics while dropping the pandering stuff? Pretty please? With a cherry on top? What do ya think? It'd be cool right?
David Lo Pan
Banned
sorrrrrrry about yoru comfort zone breh
1. I never said anything about "my comfort zone". I was referring to people who are disturbed by sexualized imagery in video games, as in THEIR comfort zone being disturbed.
2. I'm not shutting down anyone's criticism. I'm countering an argument and exposing entitled biases and political correctness. Let me be clear, Quiet does not bother me to the least. She is one of the new premier MGS characters IMO.
3. There is no rule on when a person can contribute to a thread. You are reaching.
poodaddy
Member
Fucking fantastic post and it sounds like your wife and you had the exact same experience with the game as my wife and I. So many great moments that had us freaking out and exclaiming "sick!" in that intro man. We were on cloud 9, and then Quiet shows up.
Well, to put it bluntly my wife wouldn't play the game until I agreed to mod Quiet's default outfit to be her XOF outfit as she said the character is for "disgusting perverts." True story. Wonderful game honestly, but if we didn't have the PC version then my wife would of just simply stopped playing it because of Quiet alone, and I just think that's indicative of how much her presence degrades what is an otherwise immensely engrossing experience that is, quite simply, the pinnacle of stealth gameplay and design, (though certainly not the pinnacle of quality story telling.....yeesh.) It's just an unfortunate decision that kind of drops a nugget of shit on top of what was certain to be a delectable double fudge sundae.
Chû Totoro
Member
I've discovered Quiet very recently... and people are crying that Link is not a female. Ah ah
I find it not to be a good character but it's the creator's choice and I respect this so if I disagree hardly I just have not to buy the game. This is not what didn't make me buy the game though.
poodaddy
Member
From EviLore's TOS: Do not post disingenuously, or in an inflammatory manner for the sole purpose of upsetting others.
I understand if that's not how you intended your post, but it did come off that way.
kavanf1
Member
I appreciate it's an extreme, but consider the logical conclusion of people raising objections to stuff they don't agree with - and those objections being accepted. The outcome is ultimately no more funding is provided to the likes of Miyazaki, Kojima, Tarantino, or whoever, unless they make games/films that meet a list of specifications to minimise offense around the world. It wouldn't work.
I appreciate given your views on the subject that you may dismiss my "thin end of the wedge" argument as facile, however I maintain that the creators should be allowed to create without pandering to the audience's whims. They will succeed or fail based on how good their production is. I would sooner see the product be created in all its flawed, controversial glory - but as the creator intended - than see a product with all controversial aspects toned down or removed so as to avoid upsetting anyone.
Ultimately games are not a finite resource - more are created every day. There are enough people working on them nowadays to ensure they've never been more diverse, and long may that continue. That's a good thing. Though like I said before, just because stuff like Amelie or Lost in Translation gets created, doesn't mean there isn't room for Transformers or Ghostbusters - and vice versa. We can't force Kojima to change, and nor should we IMO. Let those who blaze their trail after him make their mark, and perhaps their games will fall more in line with what is being discussed in this thread. Let Kojima make his, however he wants to. History (and sales) will judge them on their output, warts and all.
Cool, apologies for the misunderstanding on my part.
This doesn't actually seem that silly. Context is very important. Saying that it isn't is really a poor argument. If for example that person was a prostitute would your statement not be true? The problem is that the context here is not really anything outside of "she is meant to be sexy fanservice so here is a shity excuse why she has no clothes."
Your stance seems to be really confrontational in these threads. These were different people. Not only that, nobody actually made a point that the game is stupid and sexist and therefore excusable. This point was actually brought up by somebody who believed that MGS takes itself seriously (and had never played the game) and therefore Quiet is inexcusable. Sexism in a silly game or serious game is inexcusable, it makes no difference. Though your strangely opposite stance on Bayo makes me see why you would think so. Oddly you had no problem with the poster who started that debate or the fact that person had NEVER played this game and instead you took great issue with me not having completed the game but pointing out that MGS does not take iself seriously, not even related to whether I find the game to be sexist or crass. Just that the game does not take itself seriously. You've replied to well written posts with simple drivebys of "I don't know where to start with this". Your motivation in this thread seems to be to shame and not really to participate in discourse most of the time. It's not a collective "Us vs them" thing. There are individual people here with different opinions on the topic. It's not a single entity changing its mind to come up with a new excuse.
And video is just pixels at the end of the day. So lets show what we want on TV. The fact that this character is fictional or is made of polygons does not excuse anything. After all racist and sexist posters are just cartoons and the swastika just a logo drawn with lines. Sorry for Godwin's Law but it's pretty obvious that what something represents is more important than how it is drawn, displayed or the medium it is shared.
Aaaaand the thread is over. Lock it up, mods.
This whole thread is stupid. Honestly, don't you people have anything more constructive to do with your time? Go mass tweet Kojima with your opinions if you want, or organize an e-petition, or maybe even a protest at his next press conference, or whatever. You're not going to change anything by moaning about being "embarrassed", as if anyone outside of yourself cares about your personal malcontent, on NeoGAF.
Just because you're on the "right side of history" doesn't give you the right to impose your worldview upon anyone who "isn't". I'm seeing too much of that regressive attitude in this thread. That said, go right ahead and carry on crying about some fictional character's revealing attire and taking the bullshit reasoning behind it way too seriously if you want, because at least you're only embarrassing yourselves by doing so.
No offense.
Don't use Godwin if you're not prepared to lose the argument.
This whole thread is stupid. Honestly, don't you people have anything more constructive to do with your time? Go mass tweet Kojima with your opinions if you want, or organize an e-petition, or maybe even a protest at his next press conference, or whatever. You're not going to change anything by moaning about being "embarrassed", as if anyone outside of yourself cares about your personal malcontent, on NeoGAF.
Just because you're on the "right side of history" doesn't give you the right to impose your worldview upon anyone who "isn't". I'm seeing too much of that regressive attitude in this thread. That said, go right ahead and carry on crying about some fictional character's revealing attire and taking the bullshit reasoning behind it way too seriously if you want, because at least you're only embarrassing yourselves by doing so.
No offense.
old manatee
Banned
None taken.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Cheers, man. But be prepared for posts that boil down to "no u."
Posting in here takes like maybe a few minutes each time, man.
why don't you go shit up some other threads to shut them down too. There's threads about Fallout 4's writing, Xenoblade's soundtrack, and Tomb Raider for you to jump into so you can tell everyone in there to make better use of their time.
Last time Kojima used BS as an excuse for a plot, people all over the world rightfully called him on this.
People shitting on Quiet is no different than people making fun of "nanomachines" 6 years ago.
No one woke up a morning in 2015 and said "man, I loved everything about MGS before and now because of titty sniper I can't stand it and I must let everyone know!".
tl;dr it's not the 1rst time people criticize Kojima for whatever he put in his games.
This guy is that close to posting a video about exposing feminazis.
Megidolaon
Member
Quiet is a really really stupid character. Nothing like Bayonetta. Bayo is a naughty, humorous witch in a game that doesnt take itself seriously.
Quiet...well Quiet is embarrassing, I agree with the OP. A creepy, sex doll person who conveniently cannot be clothed, speak, and acts like an animal in heat. And because MGS5 takes itself so seriously, it is so cringeworthy.
She is exactly the type of female character I can't stand. Its one thing to have a scantily clad character in a fighting game with barely a story, or a game like ,DOAX3. But dont put shit like this in a serious game.
Im glad that this topic gets discussed. Its not about Puritanism or censorship.
Lol, nobodys a Puritan for not wanting a supposedly serious character dressed like a stripper in the military for no reason.
Quiet...well Quiet is embarrassing, I agree with the OP. A creepy, sex doll person who conveniently cannot be clothed, speak, and acts like an animal in heat. And because MGS5 takes itself so seriously, it is so cringeworthy.
She is exactly the type of female character I can't stand. Its one thing to have a scantily clad character in a fighting game with barely a story, or a game like ,DOAX3. But dont put shit like this in a serious game.
Im glad that this topic gets discussed. Its not about Puritanism or censorship.
Lol, nobodys a Puritan for not wanting a supposedly serious character dressed like a stripper in the military for no reason.
partyphone
Banned
criticism isn't censorship. people like jack thompson were literally trying to get games banned from stores.
There's difference in wanting to censor something and lamenting a poor choice in video game character design. Just because in Kojima's head it made sense to create this absurdly hypersexualized character doesn't mean that it was the best thing to do. People argue about shit in games, movies, books, TV, and comics all the time. You don't need to resort to making sweeping politicized generalizations.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
I agree.
Chezzymann
Member
Seriously. Seems like a lot of people are confusing the two. Its fine to critique things. And for many people this is a really jarring and embarrassing part of the game. Like a poster above me said, its especially bad if you aren't attracted to women and you have the camera being shoved up her butt. And then the people who resort to the most lazy and dumb arguments like "taking things too seriously" and "You aren't going to change anything" or the most tired argument, "don't you have anything better to do?" Why don't you just get to the point and say "Please stop critiquing something i dont want you to critique"
king_kerry2
Banned
Nah
I'm still not really understanding your point; are you saying Quiet's par for the course? MGS 4's end was also some dumb shit and everyone mocked it, but it wasn't in service of naked women showcasing their bodies.
No, my point is that every time there's something even a little bit shit in MGS people discuss it and mock it.
This is no different.
This is one has an added layer of sexist fanservice on top the shit sundae though.
Messofanego
Banned
Back in my day, people understood what criticism was instead of twisting it to equal censoring or banning.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Literally was about to say the same thing.
What a great contribution to the thread. That doesn't in anyway shape or form address the issues brought up. And complaining about women in games certainly hasn't changed the portrayal of them in anyway for the better, at least on the western front. Just conveniently ignore ME:C, DS2, Horizon, ReCore, WD:Michonne, Life is Strange, Her Story, Beyond Eyes and all of the other games released this year and releasing next year where the creators don't feel the need to pander to the lowest possible common denominator and actually give a shit about creating good characters without disrespecting the audience in the process.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
For some that is akin to censorship. As if the whole point of putting a woman in a game in the first place is for her to be fanservice for what they perceive to be a mostly male audience.
Coffee Dog
Banned
That's the purpose of this woman, though. To change that would be to alter her character to a drastic degree, to the point that she wouldn't be recognizable. It would effectively replace Quiet with another character.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
According to Kojima the point was for the audience to feel ashamed of their words and deeds and for her to be the antithesis of women in gaming. When he created the epitome of everything wrong with women in gaming. Constant voyeur cams being removed wouldn't suddenly make Quiet less of a character. In fact I'd say that would help.
This is an amazing post, especially the bolded.I'm playing catch-up in this thread right now so I'm not going to go back and quote people, but I noticed someone arguing that the resolution of the attempted rape scene represented Quiet taking charge of her sexuality. It doesn't, because first of all the rape is not about sexuality. Those soldiers aren't going to rape her because she's just so sexy, they're doing it to degrade her, to demonstrate their power over her, to put her in her place. Rape is sexual assault, but the sexuality of the victim is immaterial other than being an easy target for someone looking to inflict the most psychological damage possible. The scene is there to develop Quiet's "badass" image in the most tired, clichéd way possible for a "strong female character". It accomplishes nothing else.
Secondly, a LOT of the objectification of Quiet is coming from the camera itself or however you want to anthropomorphize it (the cameraman? Kojima? The player?). It's coming from outside the fourth wall and therefore Quiet has no recourse against it. She can only stab people who exist inside the game; whoever or whatever is outside the fourth wall is out of her reach. I'm starting to wonder if (some) straight male players have a hard time really understanding the degree to which this goes on because it seems more natural for them to want to look at someone who looks like Quiet. The camerawork is really noticeable and jarring when you, the player, are not sexually attracted to her. It feels kinda like someone is grabbing your head and shoving it into her cleavage or something. If a male player who was attracted to Quiet went back and watched all her scenes with a model swapped Snake in a speedo instead, would they notice how blatant it is?
Obviously there are plenty of male posters in this thread who did notice, but plenty who don't seem to draw a distinction between objectification coming from inside the game (e.g. the soldiers in the shower scene) vs. "outside" (the camera).
Also lore justifications for her costume are dumb because it's a made up problem that you could easily make up a solution to. I mean, if your universe has iDroid level tech in 1984, what's stopping you from inventing a made up fabric that's opaque yet completely permeable by air and UV? You could dress her in literally anything and invent a reason why it makes sense. Even if you didn't want to invent a fabric, you could dress her like this and still have about the same percentage of her skin exposed:
They made a deliberate design choice that's 100% aesthetic and about fanservice.
Acerac
Banned
Funny how that worked out.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
That's not how opposites work. The opposite of censorship would be open endorsement or whatever. I'm not saying people do want to censor either or that criticism is equal to it, but you still want them to make female characters you personally approve of, just not through coercion.
WrenchNinja
Member
They just want to to plug their ears in and go LALALALALA can't hear you and act like this stuff is okay. To shut down any discussion because they're afraid that their video games will be taken away from them.
her character is based on camera shots and her ASSets?
Coffee Dog
Banned
Nobody is going to admit to being pro-censorship, they'll call it criticism that leads to alteration, localization, etc, despite it all boiling down to changes made to dissuade offense/backlash upon release. That's why these threads always get bogged down in dumb semantics battles about what qualifies as "real censorship"
Yeah, that's why she's a shitty character. She's nothing but a design and elements to prop up and justify that design. To change that design and change all of the elements that support it would throw out the entirety of her character.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
We certainly aren't feeling ashamed of what we've done. Just cringing over some of the scenes in the game. A game that does an actual good job at making you feel ashamed is Witcher 3.
or Life is Strange. Not by having a character shaking her ass in your face but by having actual believable shit happen in response to your bad decisions.
WrenchNinja
Member
Oh what a travesty
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Instead people are wishing they didn't exist in the first place.
There are definitely parallels between the current climate and Jack Thompson's crusade. No, no legal action is being taken, but it's disingenuous to say there are no calls for censorship when polls on how Millenials feel about it say otherwise. There definitely ARE people hiding behind "criticism" when they actually mean censorship. No, not everyone, but they're there.
It's just fascinating and a little disappointing to me that so many scoffed at JT's vehement criticism and shaming of GTA's non-contextualized violence, and now those same people have grown up to do the same with non-contextualized sexuality.
And you see celebrations on Gaf and around the internet when cut content does happen. In fact, it has led people to calls for censorship with upcoming games such as Fire Emblem Fates. People will argue the changes are minor, but censorship is censorship, and it's not even true in the case of Fire Emblem where people are wishing entire modes get excised. "It's just shitty pandering" doesn't change the fact the calls are based on discomfort.
As much as I dislike Anita, I do appreciate when she starts her arguments with a "this is about criticism, not censorship" statement, but people on both sides ignore that. That and Gamergate has left gamers more divided than ever, and it's just kind of sad.
Better representation is good, but it doesn't need to be at the cost of something else existing. It's already caused casualties if Koei Tecmo's Facebook is to be believed.
This is not at all "the" logical conclusion of people objecting to things. It is one extremely unlikely outcome, the more likely one is that stuff like this takes up a smaller share of total content. And even if it were the logical conclusion, funding has already historically been denied to creators who want to make certain types of content, like games with a female lead character. Why is that acceptable to you while this same practice applied to things you personally like to see in games is not?
Also I'd love to see if you could come up with even one example of an industry that has a master "SJW" checklist that creators have to meet to get funding. Seriously?
How is a character like Quiet not already "pandering to the audience's whims", and again, why is pandering ok but only if it's doing it in ways you like? Also, who is disallowing creators to create what they want? Cite the laws that are preventing this. Criticism of things is not the same as censorship.
Kojima will never read this thread. I have 0 faith or expectation that he will ever change. Why should he? He's a relic of the boys' club era of gaming and he's got seniority and money. This conversation and others like it is not for his ears. He will continue to make what he wants and the gaming audience will decide if he's still relevant.
This actually seems like something you're afraid of, that history and the market WILL make this judgment, and the outcome will be a change in the status quo that you're not personally comfortable with.
I think I figured it out. Ashamed of your words and deeds is a pun. Because Konami is the house he built. You require a deed to own a house. And people in glass houses shouldn't throw stuff. And...puns, and stuff.
.... @_@
No, I still don't see any interpretation of it as reasonable.
.... @_@
No, I still don't see any interpretation of it as reasonable.