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[User 73706]

Theres a difference between being ignorant and not knowing what you're saying is harmful, and knowing exactly what you're saying and somehow being more racist than the average racist from his time.

People with racist viewpoints generally don't go around with the explicit intent of doing evil. To them, it's just preference / there's science behind it / traditions are traditions for a reason / etc. Racists aren't card-carrying cartoon villains. They're absolutely ignorant, even if a modicum of that ignorance is intentional.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

People with racist viewpoints generally don't go around with the explicit intent of doing evil. To them, it's just preference / there's science behind it / traditions are traditions for a reason / etc. Racists aren't card-carrying cartoon villains. They're absolutely ignorant, even if a modicum of that ignorance is intentional.

I wouldn't call it evil, I would call it more like 'assholery'. Lovecraft argued racial eugenics and purity of race-Ignorance I ascribe to a child who doesn't know any better or someone who's been sheltered in life and doesn't understand what they're saying. I wouldn't call Lovecraft ignorant of what he said. That is, his beliefs were based on ignorance(IE racial superiority/inferiority that he believed in), but he considered himself a scientific fellow, not a religious one. So he probably based his beliefs on something he thought was concrete, IE his belief in the 'Color-line' and classism/elitism he employed.

.....either way, it is arguing semantics at this point on our definitions of 'ignorant', and I'll concede on talking about Lovecraft as it's gone horribly off topic, but I will bequest of this discussion that equating Kojima to Lovecraft is an ill-begotten comparison.

 

[User 73706]

I wouldn't call it evil, I would call it more like 'assholery'. Lovecraft argued racial eugenics and purity of race-Ignorance I ascribe to a child who doesn't know any better or someone who's been sheltered in life and doesn't understand what they're saying. I wouldn't call Lovecraft ignorant of what he said. That is, his beliefs were based on ignorance(IE racial superiority/inferiority that he believed in), but he considered himself a scientific fellow, not a religious one. So he probably based his beliefs on something he thought was concrete, IE his belief in the 'Color-line' and classism/elitism he employed.

.....either way, it is arguing semantics at this point on our definitions of 'ignorant', and I'll concede on talking about Lovecraft as it's gone horribly off topic, but I will bequest of this discussion that equating Kojima to Lovecraft is an ill-begotten comparison.

By that train of thought, Kojima's victim to his own personal brand of "assholery" in thinking it's okay to pull some of the shit he does in the form of Quiet and a handful of women in his games prior.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

By that train of thought, Kojima's victim to his own personal brand of "assholery" in thinking it's okay to pull some of the shit he does in the form of Quiet and a handful of women in his games prior.

He's definitely done some questionable things. I wouldn't say it's as bad as Lovecraft, though. He just reaaaalllly needs an editor like he had in the first 3 games.

 

[Newboi]

I find it funny that you had to play with quiet a ton and upgrade her before you could unlock clothing that actually covered her (her XOF uniform). Most games have it the other way around lol.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He's definitely done some questionable things. I wouldn't say it's as bad as Lovecraft, though.

I never said it was as bad! I just said the same bogus "it's his artistic vision" reasoning can be applied to anything that's problematic.

He just reaaaalllly needs an editor like he had in the first 3 games.

But that would interfere with his artistic vision!! (I agree completely)

 

[Palculator]

He just reaaaalllly needs an editor like he had in the first 3 games.

I agree, but I don't think lack of an editor is what led to Quiet. Lack of an editor led to stilted lines like "Such a lust for revenge... whoooo?!" or the massive amount of exposition given to the evolution of the Wolbachia and the omnishambles of the MGS4 script. Maybe even those < 500ms the camera rests on her breats some other poster got upset about. But Quiet herself, the idea of a badass scantilfy clad and silent sniper, has been in the core of the game from very early on, including her eroticiscm. Granted, different developers give editors, producers, directors and such different influence over the work, but I'm not sure an editor would've interfered with the very basic premise of a main character that much. Their job would be to edit what is given to better express that basic premise, which I'd assume in this instance being things like making her affection to Venom more clear and not handwaving the lack of writing away, among other issues.

As Kojima himself said, he has been making his characters more erotic lately, which tells me it's not just something editors have kept him from doing earlier, rather he didn't have any ambitions to eroticise earlier characters like he did with Quiet. So I agree he needs a better editor, but I think an editor's effect on the subject of this thread is overestimated.

 

[Joeku]

So we're at least all in agreement he needs a high-level contributor/co-writer to keep him in check with this new Sony venture? That's when he's at his best.

Spoiler

And why the likes of del Toro and Ito would have helped him make Silent Hills amazing.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So we're at least all in agreement he needs a high-level contributor/co-writer to keep him in check with this new Sony venture? That's when he's at his best.

Spoiler

And why the likes of del Toro and Ito would have helped him make Silent Hills amazing.

I can agree to that compromise.

 

[Vlaphor]

So we're at least all in agreement he needs a high-level contributor/co-writer to keep him in check with this new Sony venture? That's when he's at his best.

Hmm. I don't know. I think he's always had some kind of reins at Konami, even if they weren't especially tight. I'm actually really curious to experience raw, unfiltered Kojima.

If this game does end up being a disaster, I'm still curious what kind of disaster will it be. Would it be a "Phantom Menace" style disaster, or a "Heaven's Gate" style disaster.

 

[Itchy//Tasty]

Funny thing is, I consider Quiet to be a genuinely great character overall, but she's undermined horribly by the shower scene, the rain scene and the helicopter titillation. Take those things out and you're left with an amazingly strong and skilled main character, one hiding a few secrets and with a beautiful and fitting end to her story. Problem is, those things are there.

 

[Palculator]

So we're at least all in agreement he needs a high-level contributor/co-writer to keep him in check with this new Sony venture? That's when he's at his best.

Spoiler

And why the likes of del Toro and Ito would have helped him make Silent Hills amazing.

I'd want to see raw, unadulterated Kojima first. Go wild.

 

[Joeku]

I'd want to see raw, unadulterated Kojima first. Go wild.

Is that not what MGS4 was? He never knew when to put the pen down.

 

[Palculator]

Is that not what MGS4 was? He never knew when to put the pen down.

That's the game he was forced to make under literal threat of death.

 

[Joeku]

While I do see that he has wanted to step away from Metal Gear after each iteration for over a decade now, that hasn't stopped him from going off the deep end the last few times. Here's a bit of late-game MGS4, for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMjP_5wEFo

If that isn't unchecked masturbatory verbosity, what is?

 

[Palculator]

While I do see that he has wanted to step away from Metal Gear after each iteration for over a decade now, that hasn't stopped him from going off the deep end the last few times. Here's a bit of late-game MGS4, for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMjP_5wEFo

If that isn't unchecked masturbatory verbosity, what is?

I didn't say it wasn't. I was saying MGS4 is a bad example of a "raw" Kojima game because he was coerced into making it. Or leading it, anyway. And given MGSV, "verbosity" isn't the primary trait such a game would have either. MGS4 is just that way because it took a decade for people to get MGS2 and it needs to mask his contempt fo his fanbase.

 

[Dr. Buni]

She is the reason I stopped playing Metal Gear Solid after the first game (great game btw). I was planning on marathoning the whole series, but... nah, no thanks.

Funny thing is, I consider Quiet to be a genuinely great character overall, but she's undermined horribly by the shower scene, the rain scene and the helicopter titillation. Take those things out and you're left with an amazingly strong and skilled main character, one hiding a few secrets and with a beautiful and fitting end to her story. Problem is, those things are there.

They would need to change her horrific design, too.

 

[Itchy//Tasty]

She is the reason I stopped playing Metal Gear Solid after the first game (great game btw). I was planning on marathoning the whole series, but... nah, no thanks.

They would need to change her horrific design, too.

In the first trailers and stuff for MGSV I wrote it off as "it's probably really fucking sweltering hot being an endlessly patient sniper in the Afghanistan desert", and that's sort of my head canon, not this breathing-through-the-skin pap. Even MB is located in the Seychelles. It would've been a slightly better explanation that her 'incident' at the beginning of the game gave her body temperature regulation issues, similar to Python from Portable Ops (anyone else remember him?). Girl gotta stay cool. Not that the excuse used matters, it still would've been used to exploit her body.

I'm not disagreeing with you though. No-one can legit defend Quiet's portrayal with a straight face, but you can make a sort of peace with it and see the cool character behind the indecency in her portrayal. Not everyone can do that though, mainly because of how overtly it's shoved in our face.

It's tough sometimes being a massive MGS fan and apologist with a decent set of gender values. 'Course we're dealing with the disparity between ours and Japanese culture which is a whole other issue.

 

[Crossing Eden]

ahem



Artistic vision does not excuse you from criticism but criticism shouldn't hamper artistic vision either. people are free to depict what they wish and people are allowed to react to it.

I wasn't using "artistic vision" rhetoric in that post. I was citing the design philosophy that Ubi's Montreal team had with ACU and clarifying the workload and the lack of point but nice try at detective gaf tho. As some in that thread were using some woefully misinformed arguments. I for instance was misusing the "majority rule" argument unfortunately. In that case it wasn't sexism but a genuine issue with the workflow required vs the end result, something that has thankfully been rectified this year albeit in a different way than I proposed. Criticism doesn't hamper artistic vision, it's there so that whatever the next project you're working on or the current one gets better. And quite frankly, I wouldn't say there's anything artistic at all about the portrayal or character design of Quiet. A lot of the logic behind her doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

Funny thing is, I consider Quiet to be a genuinely great character overall, but she's undermined horribly by the shower scene, the rain scene and the helicopter titillation. Take those things out and you're left with an amazingly strong and skilled main character, one hiding a few secrets and with a beautiful and fitting end to her story. Problem is, those things are there.

I wouldn't go that far. Her actions make little sense. I'd say start with a character concept first and then design a character and story around that instead of the other way around where they seemingly came up with a sexy sniper first and foremost and then spent awhile trying to justify it storywise.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I wouldn't go that far. Her actions make little sense. I'd say start with a character concept first and then design a character and story around that instead of the other way around where they seemingly came up with a sexy sniper first and foremost and then spent awhile trying to justify it storywise.

"Her actions make little sense."

Her actions make plenty of sense, she wanted revenge against Cipher(Thus why she was killing patrols in Afghanistan), and going to Snakes side was opportune for her. Her actions in hindsight, make alot of sense.

 

[Malice215]

The sexualization, gratuitous fanservice, and ridiculous reasoning for Quiet to be scantily clad are embarrassing. Quiet the character is the reason I bought MGS5. She's truly the one bright spot in a game that I could have easily overlooked.

It's a shame that those embarrassing moments undermine everything else she has to offer and receive the bulk of the attention, because the other characters in the game don't offer much of anything. Even the dog has more personality.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"Her actions make little sense."

Her actions make plenty of sense, she wanted revenge against Cipher(Thus why she was killing patrols in Afghanistan), and going to Snakes side was opportune for her. Her actions in hindsight, make alot of sense.

The first time we see her she's assassinating people while sneaking through a filled hospital but didn't think it was a good idea to wear a mask like literally every other person in her unit. Instead of avoiding capture via jumping out of a helicopter she just stays invisible. Instead of communicating via writing or any other form of communication, (note after she becomes cooperative and is allowed to go on missions and such), she chooses not to. Her actions make very little sense from the onset because she's so little of a character. Plus every single moment where she remotely gets to be a character is undermined by sexualization. It's so very wrong because the premise of
"assassin sent to kill but chooses to work for the enemy"

is not a bad premise for a character at all. It was just executed so unbelievably poorly that the sexualization is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what's wrong with the character.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The first time we see her she's assassinating people while sneaking through a filled hospital but didn't think it was a good idea to wear a mask like literally every other person in her unit. Instead of avoiding capture via jumping out of a helicopter she just stays invisible. Instead of communicating via writing or any other form of communication, (note after she becomes cooperative and is allowed to go on missions and such), she chooses not to. Her actions make very little sense from the onset because she's so little of a character. Plus every single moment where she remotely gets to be a character is undermined by sexualization. It's so very wrong because the premise of
"assassin sent to kill but chooses to work for the enemy"

is not a bad premise for a character at all. It was just executed so unbelievably poorly that the sexualization is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what's wrong with the character.

It's unknown why she didn't use a mask. That part is literally a plot point that sets up her trying to kill VS. She stays invisible in the helicopter because again, she was after Cipher like she explains in her final tape. She must have known that VS was after Cipher as well because after all, she tried to kill him while working for Cipher. Her deciding not to communicate is explained in her last tape where she finally talks. Her actions make perfect sense because she's after revenge like Venom Snake. Every single moment she gets to be a character isn't undermined by sexualization, that's you choosing to undermine it.

By the way, for your last statement, if you're talking about her meeting Snake in Afghanistan, at that point she wasn't working for Cipher or anybody. That much is clear given that she's killing Ciphers troops(As mentioned by random troops/Kaz), and she's a free agent at that point. As for trying to kill Snake, she either doesn't know what he's after or is waiting to see his capabilities, that's why she doesn't immediately join you when you capture her.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's unknown why she didn't use a mask. That part is literally a plot point that sets up her trying to kill VS. She stays invisible in the helicopter because again, she was after Cipher like she explains in her final tape. She must have known that VS was after Cipher as well because after all, she tried to kill him while working for Cipher. Her deciding not to communicate is explained in her last tape where she finally talks. Her actions make perfect sense because she's after revenge like Venom Snake. Every single moment she gets to be a character isn't undermined by sexualization, that's you choosing to undermine it.

By the way, for your last statement, if you're talking about her meeting Snake in Afghanistan, at that point she wasn't working for Cipher or anybody. That much is clear given that she's killing Ciphers troops(As mentioned by random troops/Kaz), and she's a free agent at that point. As for trying to kill Snake, she either doesn't know what he's after or is waiting to see his capabilities, that's why she doesn't immediately join you when you capture her.

It's a contrived plot point that makes no sense.
-Assassin who doesn't want her face to be seen, so much so that she'll kill any witnesses, chooses not to wear a mask on what's likely her most important assignment despite every single one of her male co-workers doing so.
It's simply poor writing. She wanted to avoid capture because she resisted multiple times but decided not to leave. Her deciding not to use any kind of communication is not explained at all unless we're supposed to believe that she figures that there's no way to communicate besides actively speaking.
"If only we spoke the same language."

"If only you knew remembered that sign language existed."

And no, the game turning on voyeur cam mode for the majority of her scenes, her wearing a ridiculous outfit that makes little sense under scrutiny, and her actor being told to pose seductively is Kojima undermining the character, not the audience. The audience isn't controlling the camera, VS isn't the camera, the audience didn't tell the actress to pose seductively while leaning out of a helicopter and then proceed to strip, Kojima did. Kojima undermined the character. Not us. I hate that so much, every single one of these discussions ends up with fans of the creators blaming the audience instead of admitting that the creator fucked up or was sexist.

"You see you were really undermining the character, not the outfit, cinematography choices, and acting direction all of which are solely due to the creator."

Makes no sense at all.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's a contrived plot point that makes no sense.
-Assassin who doesn't want her face to be seen, so much so that she'll kill any witnesses, chooses not to wear a mask on what's likely her most important assignment despite every single one of her male co-workers doing so.
It's simply poor writing. She wanted to avoid capture because she resisted multiple times but decided not to leave. Her deciding not to use any kind of communication is not explained at all unless we're supposed to believe that she figures that there's no way to communicate besides actively speaking.
"If only we spoke the same language."

"If only you knew remembered that sign language existed."

And no, the game turning on voyeur cam mode for the majority of her scenes, her wearing a ridiculous outfit that makes little sense under scrutiny, and her actor being told to pose seductively is Kojima undermining the character, not the audience. The audience isn't controlling the camera, VS isn't the camera, the audience didn't tell the actress to pose seductively while leaning out of a helicopter and then proceed to strip, Kojima did. Kojima undermined the character. Not us. I hate that so much, every single one of these discussions ends up with fans of the creators blaming the audience instead of admitting that the creator fucked up or was sexist.

Why are you latching on so much to her not wanting to use a mask? She doesn't use a mask after you meet her either.

"If Only we spoke the same language"

She chose to remain silent. She chose. "That's why I...I chose the language of gratitude instead, and go back to silence." To make her talk would be to take away her agency.

As for posing in the helicopter, again that depends on the bond VS builds with her. For the camera being voyeuristic? Only in certain moments. Only in moments where she is displaying agency(Again, I believe it was either you or someone else that the camera was voyeuristic in her attempted rape scene, when in fact the only time it was, as I showed, was after she regained agency, leading credence to my theory that the only time the camera is voyeuristic is when she has Agency.)

 

[Crossing Eden]

Why are you latching on so much to her not wanting to use a mask? She doesn't use a mask after you meet her either.

"If Only we spoke the same language"

She chose to remain silent. She chose. "That's why I...I chose the language of gratitude instead, and go back to silence." To make her talk would be to take away her agency.

As for posing in the helicopter, again that depends on the bond VS builds with her. For the camera being voyeuristic? Only in certain moments. Only in moments where she is displaying agency(Again, I believe it was either you or someone else that the camera was voyeuristic in her attempted rape scene, when in fact the only time it was, as I showed, was after she regained agency, leading credence to my theory that the only time the camera is voyeuristic is when she has Agency.)

Because she's a super skilled trained assassin, who's a master of stealth and infiltration, sent specifically to do a task yet makes a ridiculous mistake that completely compromises her mission compared to every single male soldier who's her ally. Because it was a specifically written moment for the sake of delaying the kill, just like how the soldiers shoot every corpse they see while walking down the hallway stop conveniently at you and the Boss, it's contrived. It doesn't hold up under scrutiny, it's simple bad writing from the author. Writing and sign language isn't speaking, she could've been silent while also relaying pertinent information that would've solved a ton of conflict. And she's not only sexualized while posing in the helicopter, (because women irl most definitely pose for you seductively if they like you enough and do nothing else). And no, her top magically opening while she's struggling and being assaulted is not the audience taking away her agency, it's the director, who felt the need to have yet another women in media experience a rape scene, then there's also the torture scenes which are also voyeuristic despite the fact that we're witnessing a character being tortured.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

i thought she didn't want to communicate, not that she couldn't.... i mean, she was still unsure if she wanted to kill Venom or not until the very end. i thought the entire reason she was there was to be close enough to kill venom but otherwise she had no interest in helping them per se. thought that was one code talker explained after a Quiet Exit... that she still conflicted because a part of her hated venom and wanted to kill him, even late in the story, but another part of her began to feel empathy and protective of him. i dunno i'd have to listen to code talker's post-Quiet Exit tapes again haha

as for the mask, isn't that just like... the same way main characters never wear helmets but generics do? =p it's so we can see their face and recognize them more easily.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Because she's a super skilled trained assassin, who's a master of stealth and infiltration, sent specifically to do a task yet makes a ridiculous mistake that completely compromises her mission compared to every single male soldier who's her ally. Because it was a specifically written moment for the sake of delaying the kill, just like how the soldiers shoot every corpse they see while walking down the hallway stop conveniently at you and the Boss, it's contrived. It doesn't hold up under scrutiny, it's simple bad writing from the author. Writing and sign language isn't speaking, she could've been silent while also relaying pertinent information that would've solved a ton of conflict. And she's not only sexualized while posing in the helicopter, (because women irl most definitely pose for you seductively if they like you enough and do nothing else). And no, her top magically opening while she's struggling and being assaulted is not the audience taking away her agency, it's the director, who felt the need to have yet another women in media experience a rape scene, then there's also the torture scenes which are also voyeuristic despite the fact that we're witnessing a character being tortured.

A "Super Skilled Trained Assassin".
A "Master of Stealth and Infiltration."

Stop making up things. There is nothing in the game that even says that lol.

As for every male soldier succeeding or whatever because they wear masks, i would say they all failed spectacularly in killing VS.

You say it's contrived that the soldiers stop at you and the Boss. Well, duh, it's called making a story. It's meant to be contrived for the sake of setting up the game. Sure if they were all as trained as they appeared to be, the game would've ended with Quiet shooting them both in bed.

Talking about contrived, 'silent' doesn't only mean to not speak. You could be silent in body language, in ignoring a person, in choosing not to communicate. For you it doesn't hold up because you don't have the suspension of disbelief required for the moments. Just like how, realistically, an elite squad of soldiers would've killed an unarmed(Literally) Venom Snake, there is a suspension of disbelief required in moments like that and Quiet choosing not to wear a mask when a real Spec Op would.

And again, her posing in the helicopter is only if you raise her bond. It's meant to convey that you and her are closer.

As for her top opening...did we both see the same scene? "Magically opening." No, she's being choked and struggling. It's not farfetched to think that her buttoned shirt would unhinge.

As for the torture scene...she was shocked in the chest. here is the scene, there is no unnecessary zooming in of her chest. Unless you're talking about when the guy shocks her in the chest. Or when they splash the acid on her face and chest. Or when Ocelot spills the water on her. Which shows those things doing just that-The water falling on her, the acid covering her. Or when Kaz talks about her being burned inside and out, in which case it does a shot on her body.

I don't see any unnecessary, out of place zooming in of her chest.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

Metal Gear Solid is corny as fuck.

Kojima is a big nerdy cheeseball.

*cringe*

 

[SomTervo]

Didn't get a chance to respond here while away for Christmas. Hope the thread isn't locked...

Her near nudity is explained through again, 'breathes through her skin'. So it does justify that despite you not wanting it to.

Haha, no. 98% of human clothing is 'breathable'. If a piece of clothing isn't breathable, it is insanely uncomfortable to wear. So Quiet should be able to wear practically anything she wants to. Her nakedness is meaningless.

The majority of human clothing also gets wet and holds damp, so the 'drinking' thing is baloney.

The assault on the infected guy, the camera actually doesn't focus on her like you think it does. You can watch it here.

I'll admit, that's not a great example on my part. Although easily made up for by the fact that she's unnecessarily near-nude and plenty of other cutscenes/scenes are heinous.

If we're throwing the word "embarrassing" around, I'd add that by now it's embarassing for people to trust Kojima on any pre-release info.

So true.

If you say so. It's still fun.

Fun can be harmful. And you might not know it. A forced example: from the perspective of the bullier, bullying is fun.

Yes, this is fun, but it's fun covering up problematic things

She is the reason I stopped playing Metal Gear Solid after the first game (great game btw). I was planning on marathoning the whole series, but... nah, no thanks.

They would need to change her horrific design, too.

If it's any consolation, only MGS4 and MGSV have stuff this problematic. MGS2 and 3 are generally OK. Not perfect, but way, way better.

 

[Servbot24]

While I do see that he has wanted to step away from Metal Gear after each iteration for over a decade now, that hasn't stopped him from going off the deep end the last few times. Here's a bit of late-game MGS4, for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fMjP_5wEFo

If that isn't unchecked masturbatory verbosity, what is?

People love Metal Gear because it's willing to go off the deep end. MGSV didn't go far enough.

She is the reason I stopped playing Metal Gear Solid after the first game (great game btw). I was planning on marathoning the whole series, but... nah, no thanks.

They would need to change her horrific design, too.

To be fair, if it were in a vacuum, her design would be objectively fantastic. And I would say that in a sense, MGS is a vacuum of its own. Obviously it still exists in real world and you can't have ideal situations like that, but still, I can easily appreciate it for what it is.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Haha, no. 98% of human clothing is 'breathable'. If a piece of clothing isn't breathable, it is insanely uncomfortable to wear. So Quiet should be able to wear practically anything she wants to. Her nakedness is meaningless.

The majority of human clothing also gets wet and holds damp, so the 'drinking' thing is baloney.

Like I mentioned above your post, there is a minute amount of suspension of disbelief required. For Quiet, it's shown wearing clothes makes her practically choke. If we're to take the realistic argument, then the game should've ended with Quiet shooting both VS and Ishmael in the bed as a real spec ops would. And wearing a mask.

It's like...yeah clothing tends to be breathable. But it's also ok that Quiet chokes when wearing clothes because we have that suspension of disbelief.

 

[Servbot24]

Like I mentioned above your post, there is a minute amount of suspension of disbelief required. For Quiet, it's shown wearing clothes makes her practically choke. If we're to take the realistic argument, then the game should've ended with Quiet shooting both VS and Ishmael in the bed as a real spec ops would. And wearing a mask.

It's like...yeah clothing tends to be breathable. But it's also ok that Quiet chokes when wearing clothes because we have that suspension of disbelief.

While it's understandable that covering up breathing organs would be uncomfortable, I don't think it's really an argument worth making considering that other characters with Quiet's same condition are wearing clothes. Not to mention they could have easily designed her a special organic suit or something. Quiet is unabashedly a design first, function second character. Generally that's bad, but there are definitely cases where I don't mind. In a series like Metal Gear where it's basically a fantasy game set in modern times, I'm ok with it, and I'd think Quiet stands stronger if we acknowledge her for what she is rather than dilute her with excuses.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Fun can be harmful. And you might not know it. A forced example: from the perspective of the bullier, bullying is fun.

Yes, this is fun, but it's fun covering up problematic things.

I don't think anyone would equate Sucker Punch to bullying.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

While it's understandable that covering up breathing organs would be uncomfortable, I don't think it's really an argument worth making considering that other characters with Quiet's same condition are wearing clothes. Not to mention they could have easily designed her a special organic suit or something. Quiet is unabashedly a design first, function second character. Generally that's bad, but there are definitely cases where I don't mind. In a series like Metal Gear where it's basically a fantasy game set in modern times, I'm ok with it, and I'd think Quiet stands stronger if we acknowledge her for what she is rather than dilute her with excuses.

That's the thing-People have tried to make 'The End/Code Talker are the same' argument. I've talked about it, but basically neither The End nor Code Talker have dead lungs like Quiet. That and the parasites each take different aspects in each host, but the point being that the only way End/CT are comparable to Quiet is that they have parasites.

 

[Russ T]

If we're to take the realistic argument, then the game should've ended with Quiet shooting both VS and Ishmael in the bed as a real spec ops would.

She was probably going for the bonus points for not leaving any evidence behind (besides, you know, the dead bodies).

 

[BreezyLimbo]

She was probably going for the bonus points for not leaving any evidence behind (besides, you know, the dead bodies).

I mean....her male cohorts kinda went and made a mess of that before they probably realized Quiet failed. They were happily slaughtering everything, bringing in their helicopters and tanks..

 

[Russ T]

Yeah so she would've scored more points, had she succeeded! Showing those posers up like what.

 

[Joeku]

People love Metal Gear because it's willing to go off the deep end. MGSV didn't go far enough.

Sorta with you here, in a way. MGSV's cutscene drama lived in the camera, and the action was ploddingly slow and deliberate and un-dynamic, most of the time. They wanted to let the framing and the shakycam do the action and establish the space. The one-take-shakycam idea, considering how goddamn often it was broken between gameplay to cutscene to gameplay (not even counting how often it would just fade to black so you didn't watch a helicopter fly for hours), was wasted and actively detracted from the game and what could otherwise have been well-directed cutscenes. The game's fucking trailers hit a lot harder emotionally than the game does, and I believe it's because of "standard" direction. It worked a whole hell of a lot better in Ground Zeroes, which, I believe until a fade to black into the Mother Base stuff at the end, was successfully a "single shot".

Keep in mind that in a digital space where animations can be stitched together and things can be fudged pretty well, the idea of a "single shot" is far less impactful than on film. Dead Space 2 is maybe (aside from a single cut in a late-game spot) the best usage of all of this. I can see that it can lend cohesion, but when it is broken so often, a la MGSV, it feels wasted and a detractor. Kojima et al here went for replication of a film technique rather than reverence for and reference to film, and it just doesn't work that well for this games design.

 

[Dutch Microwave]

Lmao,you guys still going on about this?

That's the thing-People have tried to make 'The End/Code Talker are the same' argument. I've talked about it, but basically neither The End nor Code Talker have dead lungs like Quiet. That and the parasites each take different aspects in each host, but the point being that the only way End/CT are comparable to Quiet is that they have parasites.

You know,actually I'd still be really interested in the mental gymnastics if you decided to explain the lore justification for SKULL units' costumes.I was actually joking earlier about this but hey,maybe I really did miss a crucial tape somewhere that obviously explains that all the female unit members have the same lung problems Quiet does.

Spoiler

I hope its not "Les Enfants Terribles 2.0,theyre actually clones of Quiet

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Lmao,you guys still going on about this?



You know,actually I'd still be really interested in the mental gymnastics if you decided to explain the lore justification for SKULL units' costumes.I was actually joking earlier about this but hey,maybe I really did miss a crucial tape somewhere that obviously explains that all the female unit members have the same lung problems Quiet does.

Spoiler

I hope its not "Les Enfants Terribles 2.0,theyre actually clones of Quiet

They actually dont explain the Skulls at all, outside of being an elite unit infected with parasites. So who the hell know whats the deal with them. Some of the male skulls are half naked, someone of them make guns and swords out of no where, some have the power of earth apparently
...theyre one of the bigger mysteries in the game.

 

[Radical Edward]

Because she's a super skilled trained assassin, who's a master of stealth and infiltration, sent specifically to do a task yet makes a ridiculous mistake that completely compromises her mission compared to every single male soldier who's her ally. Because it was a specifically written moment for the sake of delaying the kill, just like how the soldiers shoot every corpse they see while walking down the hallway stop conveniently at you and the Boss, it's contrived. It doesn't hold up under scrutiny, it's simple bad writing from the author. Writing and sign language isn't speaking, she could've been silent while also relaying pertinent information that would've solved a ton of conflict. And she's not only sexualized while posing in the helicopter, (because women irl most definitely pose for you seductively if they like you enough and do nothing else). And no, her top magically opening while she's struggling and being assaulted is not the audience taking away her agency, it's the director, who felt the need to have yet another women in media experience a rape scene, then there's also the torture scenes which are also voyeuristic despite the fact that we're witnessing a character being tortured.

Come on, it is a visual medium with actors they paid money for and extensive mocap. You don't cover up main actors' faces, especially in someting so far removed from reality. Imagine James Bond wore a mask for all his infiltrations, it wouldn't work. Why wear a mask, anyway, if you plan on eliminating everyone.

 

[PensOwl]

Why wear a mask, anyway, if you plan on eliminating everyone.

Good question.
In fact why is quiet there anyways, sneaking in alone and choking people with wire when less then 10 minutes behind her are dudes with rocket launchers, helicopters firing indiscriminately into the building, and APCs ramming through the first floor. This isn't exactly a covert operation.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Good question.
In fact why is quiet there anyways, sneaking in alone and choking people with wire when less then 10 minutes behind her are dudes with rocket launchers, helicopters firing indiscriminately into the building, and APCs ramming through the first floor. This isn't exactly a covert operation.

Thats the problem with a reductive argument. If they're bringing all this firepower into the hospital, on a seemingly random day, why dont they just bombard the hospital with rockets and missile strikes. Cipher is presumably powerful enough to do so.

Having a reductive, nitpick argument just doesnt work.

 

[Ryouji Gunblade]

Thats the problem with a reductive argument. If they're bringing all this firepower into the hospital, on a seemingly random day, why dont they just bombard the hospital with rockets and missile strikes. Cipher is presumably powerful enough to do so.

Having a reductive, nitpick argument just doesnt work.

Maybe they want the kill confirmed?

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

maybe they came as a back-up plan once she failed =p

try covert assassination with visual confirmation of success; if fails, scorched earth.

else, cuz it's fun =p

 

[Kinyou]

Yep. And you could certainly argue that Kojima is a pervy sexist outside of his games too (of which there is evidence for), who writes his pervy sexism into his stories. Which he actually totally does, and not just with Quiet.

So not really a false equivalence at all.

I must have missed something. What makes Kojima a pervy sexist outside of his games?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Come on, it is a visual medium with actors they paid money for and extensive mocap. You don't cover up main actors' faces, especially in someting so far removed from reality. Imagine James Bond wore a mask for all his infiltrations, it wouldn't work. Why wear a mask, anyway, if you plan on eliminating everyone.

They paid for mocap but that doesn't mean that any contrivances or examples of poor writing should be handwaved. They probably weren't even planning on killing everyone considering Quiet was sent in first but they then saw her get knocked out of a window while on fire.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Maybe they want the kill confirmed?

Maybe. But this is also the same organization that can send a jet against Snake on a whim. Dropping a cluster bomb on a hospital and completely obliterating it is easy.

 

[deadeyekiwi]

Thats the problem with a reductive argument. If they're bringing all this firepower into the hospital, on a seemingly random day, why dont they just bombard the hospital with rockets and missile strikes. Cipher is presumably powerful enough to do so.

Having a reductive, nitpick argument just doesnt work.

because it a pretty generally followed rule that use always use the least force necessary, at least as far as the military is concerned. Why would you use thousands(if not a million) dollars on an attack to kill 1 dude who has been in a coma for 9 years with a massive head injury that should allow for a gentle breeze to kill him. especially when your army has a ghost made of fire in it. 1 well trained assassin should be more than enough to comfortably kill venom. If he wasn't guarded by canonically the biggest badass ever to walk god's green earth she probably would have succeeded.