• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NYT: Hillary Clinton, Mocking and Taunting in Debate, Turns the Tormentor

Status
Not open for further replies.
Her first two debate performances were anything but tepid, but for people who just wanted her to go out there and be an attack dog, I can understand how you might feel that way. But debate isn't as simplistic as mauling your opponent over and over, and Hillary did 100% what she should have done in all three debates.
 

Veelk

Banned
Her first two debate performances were anything but tepid, but for people who just wanted her to go out there and be an attack dog, I can understand how you might feel that way. But debate isn't as simplistic as mauling your opponent over and over, and Hillary did 100% what she should have done in all three debates.

You're probably not wrong, but this has just been a long time coming. It remains amazing to me that non of the Republicans could take him down during the primaries, because he's extremely easy to tear apart once you get down to it. Even if the base would reject it, it was the obvious tactic to take. And I don't think being aggressive would have gone poorly.

But either way, yesterday was cathartic as all hell.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Her first two debate performances were anything but tepid, but for people who just wanted her to go out there and be an attack dog, I can understand how you might feel that way. But debate isn't as simplistic as mauling your opponent over and over, and Hillary did 100% what she should have done in all three debates.
It's not just about being an attack dog. The debates are designed for two people to actually debate, point out the flaws in each other's argument, call each other out on their lies AND present your point of view. 90% of the time, all Hillary did in the first two debates was just rehash her talking points from her rallies. She did not refute so many of Trump's very dangerous accusations that it turned into a farce where he could literally say whatever he wanted.

And no, telling people to go to hillaryclinton.com for an unbiased fact check is an absolutely ridiculous way to call your opponents lies.

Here are some of the lies that she did not call out that will now likely become accepted among the mainstream public because she let them go unchallenged:

1) NAFTA is the worst deal ever. Economists have pointed out that the effect of this deal on jobs shipping overseas is minimal at best. She refused to point out any of many good things that came out of this deal.
2) Ford is closing factories and shipping jobs overseas. He has been rambling about this for months. She should have known, like i knew, that Ford is not laying off a single employee and is creating NEW factories in Mexico for their cheaper car models.
3) Muslims dont report terrorism - This is the worst of them all in my opinion because now people believe that their muslim neighbor wont report on terrorists and view them suspiciously. All she had to do was point to one of the many times FBI has said that muslim community do indeed report suspicious activities. But instead she went on a pretty well rehearsed reply that said pretty much nothing.
4) He had been going on and on about how Obama is for open borders despite the fact that Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than anyone on the planet. She didnt call him out on it for three debates. In fact, he ended up pointing it out himself. She just stood there and let him repeat that lie over and over again.

These things matter. Calling out your opponent for lying makes them defend it or attempt to refute it. Those become headlines for fact checkers the next day. By refusing to even engage him on 90% of his lies until the last debate was a mistake.

Everyone agreed that this was her best debate because she came out and attacked him from the first minute. It's how you debate.
 

kirblar

Member
The debates are designed for two people to actually debate, point out the flaws in each other's argument, call each other out on their lies AND present your point of view.
That's not the point of debates at all. It's to present and sell yourself while bringing down the other person.

When a large % of the audience doesn't know/care/believe the truth/facts/etc- you can't win on those.
 

Acorn

Member
It's not just about being an attack dog. The debates are designed for two people to actually debate, point out the flaws in each other's argument, call each other out on their lies AND present your point of view. 90% of the time, all Hillary did in the first two debates was just rehash her talking points from her rallies. She did not refute so many of Trump's very dangerous accusations that it turned into a farce where he could literally say whatever he wanted.

And no, telling people to go to hillaryclinton.com for an unbiased fact check is an absolutely ridiculous way to call your opponents lies.

Here are some of the lies that she did not call out that will now likely become accepted among the mainstream public because she let them go unchallenged:

1) NAFTA is the worst deal ever. Economists have pointed out that the effect of this deal on jobs shipping overseas is minimal at best. She refused to point out any of many good things that came out of this deal.
2) Ford is closing factories and shipping jobs overseas. He has been rambling about this for months. She should have known, like i knew, that Ford is not laying off a single employee and is creating NEW factories in Mexico for their cheaper car models.
3) Muslims dont report terrorism - This is the worst of them all in my opinion because now people believe that their muslim neighbor wont report on terrorists and view them suspiciously. All she had to do was point to one of the many times FBI has said that muslim community do indeed report suspicious activities. But instead she went on a pretty well rehearsed reply that said pretty much nothing.
4) He had been going on and on about how Obama is for open borders despite the fact that Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than anyone on the planet. She didnt call him out on it for three debates. In fact, he ended up pointing it out himself. She just stood there and let him repeat that lie over and over again.

These things matter. Calling out your opponent for lying makes them defend it or attempt to refute it. Those become headlines for fact checkers the next day. By refusing to even engage him on 90% of his lies until the last debate was a mistake.

Everyone agreed that this was her best debate because she came out and attacked him from the first minute. It's how you debate.
Seeking to defend NAFTA would be falling into an obvious trap. Regardless of the actual truth it's seen as something that was disastrous - feelings trump facts in politics now.

So she did the right thing ignoring it.
 
GmBxiit.jpg
 
You're probably not wrong, but this has just been a long time coming. It remains amazing to me that non of the Republicans could take him down during the primaries, because he's extremely easy to tear apart once you get down to it. Even if the base would reject it, it was the obvious tactic to take. And I don't think being aggressive would have gone poorly.

But either way, yesterday was cathartic as all hell.

It's not just about being an attack dog. The debates are designed for two people to actually debate, point out the flaws in each other's argument, call each other out on their lies AND present your point of view. 90% of the time, all Hillary did in the first two debates was just rehash her talking points from her rallies. She did not refute so many of Trump's very dangerous accusations that it turned into a farce where he could literally say whatever he wanted.

And no, telling people to go to hillaryclinton.com for an unbiased fact check is an absolutely ridiculous way to call your opponents lies.

Here are some of the lies that she did not call out that will now likely become accepted among the mainstream public because she let them go unchallenged:

.....

These things matter. Calling out your opponent for lying makes them defend it or attempt to refute it. Those become headlines for fact checkers the next day. By refusing to even engage him on 90% of his lies until the last debate was a mistake.

Everyone agreed that this was her best debate because she came out and attacked him from the first minute. It's how you debate.

No, you guys just really don't get it, to be honest. Hillary going into each debate putting Trump on blast would've had a lot of potentially negative consequences. For one, if all she is doing is tearing down, there's a fear of making him look sympathetic, especially since Trump remained relatively reserved through much of the debates, and the standards were so low. Correcting him all the time would possibly add to the effect, as well as totally overwhelm the audience and viewing public with his views and points, and not give time to your own. You may scoff, but giving people an opportunity to go to your website to fact-check is kind of brilliant, especially when your fact-check matches with most other fact-checks, it gives you the headspace in people's mind as the honest candidate. Those who care about the facts will find them after it's done, and you don't have to point out every lie, once you point out enough it sows the seeds of distrust from your opponent.

And then there's the issue of pace, the often ignored aspect of debate that even longtime debaters don't understand. Look at how impressed everyone is about Hillary's hard-edge performance tonight, about how she managed to be aggressive without sacrificing her Presidential look and stance, etc. Do you think that would be nearly as impressive after two straight debates of being a vicious attack dog who ripped into every Trump lie and tore him down all the time? Not at all. That's pace: 1st debate: mostly pure defense, 2nd debate: Mostly defense, but with peppered in jabs of offense, 3rd debate: hard offense. The effect of this debate would have been totally diminished if it was 1st debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE, 2nd debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE, 3rd debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE.

In the same way that speech giving is more than just throwing pretty words together, debate is more than just offense and calling your opponent out all the time. It may not be 100% satisfying to that desire and need to see Trump be verbally eviscerated for 90 minutes straight that a lot of people want to see, but as far as what really needed to be done, Hillary aced pretty much all three debates, and she battled Trump pretty much the only way you can in the current environment: give him just enough rope to hang himself, and then give a shift kick to the chair he's standing on at the end.
 

Wallach

Member
ye olde blackjack problem in a nutshell: miscalculating optimal strategy because you did not understand the primary objective

also known as the trump 2016 campaign strategy
 

kmfdmpig

Member
This video strikes me as mostly wrong.

It's not really clear that the debates moved the needle (the video ignores the tape coming out in the middle, and the wearing off of previous negative shocks on Hillary's numbers from her pneumonia thing); it's not unprecedented to get a bump from a debate; and we don't know if any debate effects are durable or not because it's the day after the third debate.

Also "modern presidential history" really means "the transition of debates to the modern format, in 2000". So we're talking about 5 elections. And I actually think Obama's 2nd debate performance in 2012 exceeds any of Clinton's this time around.

I think the video is right that her performance was strategic in terms of what bait to ignore, what to take, and how to bait Trump (the Miss Universe thing is hilarious in that it was such an obvious prepared rope-a-dope, it was so obvious and he took it anyway). It is definitely true that in both the second and third debates Trump started out calm and got less calm, although the second debate was probably more driven by the moderators than Clinton.

The end conclusion that Trump won the Republican debates is wrong. Almost none of the Republican debates clearly ended with Trump as winner. He "won" largely by not losing--as in as the poll and thought leader, he needed to be taken down in the debates, and he wasn't, and that's largely a factor of the free-for-all format rather than Trump's qualities as candidate or debator.

This is like peak Cracked.com/Vox-splaining. It's a video of a relatively smart articulate guy saying something shallow but reasonable sounding that doesn't really say anything at all. Like, yeah, we all see the debates and the post-debate polls and Clinton clearly won the debates, what else is the video adding to this obvious fact? Turd emoji.

I agree. The video tried to spin that by saying that the debate paved the way for the Access Hollywood video to come out, but I'm not sure that I buy that.

538 had a fairly good take on the importance of the debates and basically indicated that compared with conventions they have fairly muted impact. Trump has been burying his credibility day by day, and that has been reflected in the polling. The video greatly overstates the power of the three debates. A better take would be that the first debate clearly reestablished Hillary as the more presidential and knowledgeable candidate, which did have a significant impact. The 2nd and 3rd seem to have had much less of an influence as both played out similarly to the first one.
 

VariantX

Member
Her first two debate performances were anything but tepid, but for people who just wanted her to go out there and be an attack dog, I can understand how you might feel that way. But debate isn't as simplistic as mauling your opponent over and over, and Hillary did 100% what she should have done in all three debates.

I feel that's really the job of her surrogates anyway. I feel her job was to look more presidential and fit to meet the challenges the office may bring to bear.
 
These two were the burns of the night.

She mansplained him. “Let me translate that if I can,” Hillary Clinton said dryly after Donald J. Trump talked up his tax plan.

She interrupted him. When Mr. Trump boasted of the gilded Las Vegas hotel that bears his name, Mrs. Clinton leaned into her microphone. “Made with Chinese steel,” she quipped with a smile.
On his charitable giving, compared with the work of the Clinton Foundation: “I’d be happy to compare what we do with the Trump Foundation, which took money from other people and bought a six-foot portrait of Donald,” Mrs. Clinton said witheringly.

“I mean, who does that?” she added.

On Mr. Trump’s famed negotiating skills: “He went to Mexico. He had a meeting with the Mexican president,” Mrs. Clinton said bitingly. “He choked and then got into a Twitter war because the Mexican president said, ‘We’re not paying for that wall.’”

And these two really cut to the core how much of a charlatan Trump is. He's really only out for himself. If he gave a shit about American workers he would have used US Steel instead of saying " Why don't you make it so I can't do these things?" That's the equivalent of a burglar blaming you after they break in and rob you. "Should have put bars on your windows!"
 

Zackat

Member
These two were the burns of the night.



And these two really cut to the core how much of a charlatan Trump is. He's really only out for himself. If he gave a shit about American workers he would have used US Steel instead of saying " Why don't you make it so I can't do these things?" That's the equivalent of a burglar blaming you after they break in and rob you. "Should have put bars on your windows!"
Calling him a puppet really ticked him off too. It was so good.
 
She slaughtered him.

It was a perfect mix of policy, temperament, and "zingers". She made him look like a fucking child.

I was very, very impressed with her last night.
 

Veelk

Banned
No, you guys just really don't get it, to be honest. Hillary going into each debate putting Trump on blast would've had a lot of potentially negative consequences. For one, if all she is doing is tearing down, there's a fear of making him look sympathetic, especially since Trump remained relatively reserved through much of the debates, and the standards were so low. Correcting him all the time would possibly add to the effect, as well as totally overwhelm the audience and viewing public with his views and points, and not give time to your own. You may scoff, but giving people an opportunity to go to your website to fact-check is kind of brilliant, especially when your fact-check matches with most other fact-checks, it gives you the headspace in people's mind as the honest candidate. Those who care about the facts will find them after it's done, and you don't have to point out every lie, once you point out enough it sows the seeds of distrust from your opponent.

And then there's the issue of pace, the often ignored aspect of debate that even longtime debaters don't understand. Look at how impressed everyone is about Hillary's hard-edge performance tonight, about how she managed to be aggressive without sacrificing her Presidential look and stance, etc. Do you think that would be nearly as impressive after two straight debates of being a vicious attack dog who ripped into every Trump lie and tore him down all the time? Not at all. That's pace: 1st debate: mostly pure defense, 2nd debate: Mostly defense, but with peppered in jabs of offense, 3rd debate: hard offense. The effect of this debate would have been totally diminished if it was 1st debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE, 2nd debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE, 3rd debate: SAVAGE OFFENSE.

In the same way that speech giving is more than just throwing pretty words together, debate is more than just offense and calling your opponent out all the time. It may not be 100% satisfying to that desire and need to see Trump be verbally eviscerated for 90 minutes straight that a lot of people want to see, but as far as what really needed to be done, Hillary aced pretty much all three debates, and she battled Trump pretty much the only way you can in the current environment: give him just enough rope to hang himself, and then give a shift kick to the chair he's standing on at the end.

You're misunderstanding if you think I want her to do nothing but savage attack. What she showed in this third debate performance was balance of being presidential while still handling trump like the child he is.

The scenario you describe is an exaggeration of how things could have played out in the worst way possible. Trump wouldn't have gotten his say and appeared sympathetic? Come on. There is both room to hang himself with his own rope while also punching him in the face a few times.

Same with her correcting him. As I said in another post, you can't beat gish gallop by engaging with it, so she's right not to trip over herself correcting every stupid thing he said. But there are plenty of things in which she could off handedly correct without straying from making her point.

Clinton did very, very well in all 3 debates, but it's ridiculous to say there wasn't room for improvement in terms of offense against trump, that the whole thing would have come tumbling down because of pacing. He had glaring and obvious weaknesses she could have drilled into that would have been far more beneficial to making him look bad than whoever benefits she'd lose by throwing off the pace slightly.
 

Cuburt

Member
She put on a clinic last night.

If nothing else, these debates have shown what a large gap there is between the two candidates when it comes to temperament and fitness for the position.

I've definitely gained a new level of respect for her, because it's obvious that she is brainy and booksmart, but she showed she won't be bullied by a man, she's is a great strategist, and she can also think pretty quickly on her feet to go toe to toe with Trump who hinged his whole debate approach on being in the moment.
 
I kept thinking of that exchange between Batman and the Mutant Gang leader during their last fight in the 'Dark Knight Returns' comic: "You think this is a mud hole you're fighting in? This is an operating table, and I'm the surgeon's.
 

Durden77

Member
Yeah, Hillary was really impressive last night. Normally she honestly doesn't do much for me, but she was really on point and seemed like she was speaking from the heart last night. She put her jabs in all the right places, had very solid and comprehensive answers to almost every question, and just looked really Presidential and human.

There was only one time earlier on where Trump like completely didn't answer a question that I wish she would have called him out on. But that's it.

I was always going to vote for her, but last night got me a bit more excited about voting for her.
 

Fantastical

Death Prophet
Yes, Hillary did a fine job. As I said in the debate thread she seemed extremely confident in herself and not ready to take any of Trump's BS.
 
You're misunderstanding if you think I want her to do nothing but savage attack. What she showed in this third debate performance was balance of being presidential while still handling trump like the child he is.

The scenario you describe is an exaggeration of how things could have played out in the worst way possible. Trump wouldn't have gotten his say and appeared sympathetic? Come on. There is both room to hang himself with his own rope while also punching him in the face a few times.

Come on, what? You don't see how someone being under constant attack could be sympathetic? Have you never seen a situation where someone is being constantly berated in a small amount of time, and you maybe felt sorry for them even though you know they probably deserved it? I mean, it's a real thing, especially if expectations for the debater in question are low, which they were for Trump. Even if you don't mean SAVAGE OFFENSE each debate, you still look at the pace: 1st debate: Offense, 2nd debate: Offense, 3rd debate: Offense. It would kill the pacing Clinton set up, and make the offensive nature of the 3rd debate diminished. It's honestly very clear what she was doing now that all three debates are done.

Same with her correcting him. As I said in another post, you can't beat gish gallop by engaging with it, so she's right not to trip over herself correcting every stupid thing he said. But there are plenty of things in which she could off handedly correct without straying from making her point.

No, she corrected all she needed to. Correcting Trump is an overwhelming practice, and you only have to do it so much to plant doubt, and she did that. Those who truly care about the facts will find the fact-checking later via whatever means. And the fact that she was the corrector gives her that mind space.

Clinton did very, very well in all 3 debates, but it's ridiculous to say there wasn't room for improvement in terms of offense against trump, that the whole thing would have come tumbling down because of pacing. He had glaring and obvious weaknesses she could have drilled into that would have been far more beneficial to making him look bad than whoever benefits she'd lose by throwing off the pace slightly.

No, it's really not. As I said, a speech is more than pretty words thrown together. There's a deliberate structure to it, when to say what, what beats to hit and what not. Debate is much the same way, there's a pace to it, especially within a series. Trump is the perfect kind of opponent for defensive debating, because can't help but hang himself. Hillary playing defense for most of the first and second debate allowed herself to look calm and collected versus the raving Trump, and then for the final she went on the offensive it offset her aggressive nature because she was already seen as the calm and collected one versus Trump, who had created his image in the first two debates. Without that pace, the third debate would have been more humdrum, it would have lost its punch, because all three debates would have basically been the same narrative: Clinton on the intense offense, Trump on the collected defense.

Is it 100% perfect? No, what is, right? But looking at the three debates as a whole now, you can easily see the long con of it all. The problem is just isn't satisfying for those who wanted Clinton to just kick in the door, call Trump out on every lie, etc., but how she handled it was honestly pretty masterful overall, it just may not be satisfying to watch from the standpoint of those who want to see Trump roast.
 

m0dus

Banned
She lost my vote.

That performance was lacking in presidential propriety sadly.

her performance was lacking in propriety? Are you serious?

She basically had to talk down to a blithering petulant child. Anything Short of slapping the shit out of him would be considered proper decorum.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
her performance was lacking in propriety? Are you serious?
I'm guessing no, but I really can't tell these days. Anyone bailing on Clinton for Trump after that shellacking was already supporting Trump for reasons that have nothing to do with "presidential propriety".
 

Veelk

Banned
Come on, what? You don't see how someone being under constant attack could be sympathetic? Have you never seen a situation where someone is being constantly berated in a small amount of time, and you maybe felt sorry for them even though you know they probably deserved it? I mean, it's a real thing, especially if expectations for the debater in question are low, which they were for Trump. Even if you don't mean SAVAGE OFFENSE each debate, you still look at the pace: 1st debate: Offense, 2nd debate: Offense, 3rd debate: Offense. It would kill the pacing Clinton set up, and make the offensive nature of the 3rd debate diminished. It's honestly very clear what she was doing now that all three debates are done.

No, I don't see how someone like Trump would be considered the victim in this scenerio, because he wouldn't be sitting idle. He'd be viciously attacking like we saw in the first 2 debates. His behavior is not dependent on whether Hillary attacks or not. And the pacing within debates itself is more important that the pacing between debates. Again, there would be plenty of time for Hillary to act presidential while still taking time to attack Trump where needed.

No, she corrected all she needed to. Correcting Trump is an overwhelming practice, and you only have to do it so much to plant doubt, and she did that. Those who truly care about the facts will find the fact-checking later via whatever means. And the fact that she was the corrector gives her that mind space.

Or, another way that could have worked is to definitively correct Trump on select key points, and when fact checkers go to verify things like that (fact checkers check the facts regardless of who their coming from or how convincing they are), they'll find even more things wrong with what Trump said.

No, it's really not. As I said, a speech is more than pretty words thrown together. There's a deliberate structure to it, when to say what, what beats to hit and what not. Debate is much the same way, there's a pace to it, especially within a series. Trump is the perfect kind of opponent for defensive debating, because can't help but hang himself. Hillary playing defense for most of the first and second debate allowed herself to look calm and collected versus the raving Trump, and then for the final she went on the offensive it offset her aggressive nature because she was already seen as the calm and collected one versus Trump, who had created his image in the first two debates. Without that pace, the third debate would have been more humdrum, it would have lost its punch, because all three debates would have basically been the same narrative: Clinton on the intense offense, Trump on the collected defense.

Is it 100% perfect? No, what is, right? But looking at the three debates as a whole now, you can easily see the long con of it all. The problem is just isn't satisfying for those who wanted Clinton to just kick in the door, call Trump out on every lie, etc., but how she handled it was honestly pretty masterful overall, it just may not be satisfying to watch from the standpoint of those who want to see Trump roast.

I never argued what she did was an ineffective strategy, so you don't have to sell me on what her performance. I just don't see much reason to say that it wouldn't have been better if she had spaced the offensive more evenly within the defenses and acting presidential. Like, forget about it being a roast of Donald Trump. He had numerous, glaring weak points and she could have hit atleast a few of them to both discredit his argument, throw him off his game, and put an end to his misinformation, while still holding back on other points to still appear calm and collected to Trump's ranting and raving.

Also, I don't see it as a long con so much as Hillary's growing confidence with how she could handle Donald.

In the first debate, she prepared herself. I felt it was pretty clear she was nervous and unsure what kind of opponent she'll be facing with Donald. But as it went on, it was obvious that he was imploding and was self destructing, so she just hung back and defended herself while he wrecked himself. Then, before the second debate, the 2005 video tape came out. Rather than the energetic and confident donald we saw in the first one, now he seemed to be in a resigned 'Fuck it' mode. But he happened to get in a few zingers and attacks on her. She still won the debate and he still imploded, but he did manage to land a few hits in, and I think this upset her. So now in the third debate, she was determined to straighten his shit out once and for all, and we got the performance we got. Meanwhile, I'm not sure what kind of headspace Donald is in right now that he seemed calmer and politer this debate. Maybe he was just intimidated by Hillary being aggressive, maybe his campaign managers took his coke away, maybe even he feels an ounce of shame over his actions. Who knows. But Hillary was not gonna fuck around anymore.

That's my interpretation of it anyway. Less a plan and more like adjustments based on how she's interacting with Donald. She was untouchable the first debate, then he got a lucky hit in the second, and in the third, she was just done with this asshole and ready to kick his ass out of this race.
 

.JayZii

Banned
The best part about the "nasty woman" comment is that he said it because she implied he would try to find a way not to pay taxes if he could. Which he had just boasted about doing a few minutes earlier while blaming Hillary for it.

I have to assume people that think Trump does well in debates judge them in 30 second increments divorced from the context of anything that has been said before.
 
The entire series of debates reminds me of fucking with the AI in old Metal Gear games.


Hillary laid traps and Donald walked into them every, single, time. Some subtle, some super obvious. Dude could never resist taking the bait.

She was toying with him. Laying traps and then letting him do the damage to himself.


If there is a debate 101 class somewhere I bet they will be watching these debates to learn the basic dos and donts.
 
Her first two debate performances were anything but tepid, but for people who just wanted her to go out there and be an attack dog, I can understand how you might feel that way. But debate isn't as simplistic as mauling your opponent over and over, and Hillary did 100% what she should have done in all three debates.

Yup. Too much fighting games I think. "Finish Him!" "Flawless Victory!" I guess it's the only way some people can imagine debates going down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom