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[SRG01]

We're not saying disown his church. We're saying disown his pastor. Obama not only didn't do that, he defended him. The reality is there really isn't any more white-on-black racism anymore, outside of certain individuals, which is a factor in any race.

Black people can hold any political office. They can do whatever they want. We have a black man that is a legitimate contender for the white house. The former mayor of LA was black. The governor of New York is black... and blind. Black Americans have grown huge fortunes (Oprah, and the founder of BET are both billionaires). The Secretary of State is a black woman. The previous secretary of state was black. Both appointed by Bush. Several Senators are black. There are no more ceilings. What Obama's pastor is saying is just wrong.

We are living in King's dream. People just need to open their eyes and realize it.

Obama in no way defended his former pastor's actions. Rather, he presents something that allows us to understand where his pastor is coming from.

Being a person of color (not black, but asian), I don't think you're correct in saying that we're living in King's dream. We're living in his legacy, but we're oh so far away from actually realizing his dream. We still live in a society that thrives on a "us vs them" mentality. We still can't think of interracial dating as a norm rather than an exception. Public perception of a person of color in public office is still an exception. And, like Obama had said in his speech, Sunday morning is still the most segregated time in American society simply because we go to different churches and different social groups.

It is because American society thrives on divisiveness that we still have these problems of ignorance and uneasiness and hatred.

 

[MWS Natural]

We're not saying disown his church. We're saying disown his pastor. Obama not only didn't do that, he defended him. The reality is there really isn't any more white-on-black racism anymore, outside of certain individuals, which is a factor in any race.

It's sad that many people actually believe this.

 

[siamesedreamer]

Nice try but it's quite clear he's referring to the statements that have come out recently, which is what the question adressed.

Uh...no.

He's talking about one or two comments he knew about when he decided to put him on a campaign committee last year.

 

[avatar299]

It's sad that many people actually believe this.

Well to disprove it you have to make the argument to the white community that a lot of problems facing black men isn't self-imposed in some way or another, but it is in fact their fault.

Don't pity people becuase they haven't forced themselves to live in the slums

 

[greatestjediever]

To me, race and gender are not all that important when compared to war, the economy, and education. We know that women and minorities have been shitted on, but things are significantly better than they were in the past. Perfect equality is a farce and people that are chasing such a thing are in for a world of disappointment.

I can understand your placing of those issues before social inequalities, but at the same time those topics you've listed also will never be fully rectified either (ie there will always be war, economy is often out of our control). Not to mention some of those very issues are tied together with social inequalities. There's plenty of time to discuss and have reasonable debate about all of these issues; they shouldn't have to come at the expense of the other. Besides, its not likely that we will solve any of these within a single President's term.

 

[SRG01]

Well to disprove it you have to make the argument to the white community that a lot of problems facing black men isn't self-imposed in some way or another, but it is in fact their fault.

Don't pity people becuase they haven't forced themselves to live in the slums

Well, that's the entire problem right there.

It's easy to blame the "other party" because it's a convenient scapegoat. The underlying causes behind, say, African-American socioeconomic progress go far beyond simple blame.

 

[Zeed]

Several Senators are black.

Actually only one is.

His name is Barack Obama.

Please at least try to sound informed if you're going to argue we're "living King's dream".

 

[StoOgE]

Both Democrats will raise the capital gains tax. Not sure to what % though. They'll also raise the dividend tax, and the death tax.

All 3 of which will severely hurt me financially. And I'm middle class! If they really wanted to help the middle class, they'd let those taxes remain low.

the estate tax effects less than 10% of americans, and none of them are in the middle class, unless dying with a 4 million dollar estate is middle class.

dividends dont have their own tax, they are taxed at ordinary income.

and long term cap gains will be rolled back to ordinary income, which for people with adjusted income below 75K is 15%.

its amazing how people bitch about tax hikes that dont effect them.

also, you are an idiot talking out of his ass

 

[numble]

Well, if you're going statistically, black people don't make up 12% of every state. Some states have a very large black population, some have very few.

Still, please name these several black senators you speak about.

 

[StoOgE]

Last I heard it was somewhere between 24-28%.

What was it under Clinton?

short term cap gains are taxed at ordinary income (held for less than a year)

long term are taxed at 15% for everyone.

the disconnect here is for the vast majority of americans, ordinary income tax IS 15%, so Bush's "tax cut" on cap gains only helps the allready wealthy.

just like the "death tax" the vast majority of americans dont benefit from the "tax cut", but they dont know that so they get in a huff about it.

hell, someone in this thread made up a dividend tax the dems want to slap him with that isnt even real.

 

[Mandark]

We're not saying disown his church. We're saying disown his pastor. Obama not only didn't do that, he defended him. The reality is there really isn't any more white-on-black racism anymore, outside of certain individuals, which is a factor in any race.

Black people can hold any political office. They can do whatever they want. We have a black man that is a legitimate contender for the white house. The former mayor of LA was black. The governor of New York is black... and blind. Black Americans have grown huge fortunes (Oprah, and the founder of BET are both billionaires). The Secretary of State is a black woman. The previous secretary of state was black. Both appointed by Bush. Several Senators are black. There are no more ceilings. What Obama's pastor is saying is just wrong.

We are living in King's dream. People just need to open their eyes and realize it.

Completely wrong, but useful in that it sums up how white conservatives in America tend to view racial issues.

 

[obijkenobi]

Race doesn't matter? I dunno, seems to be a pretty big predictor of wealth
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html

Unless you want to argue it has something to do with how lazy minorities are or some other systematic bias.

 

[MWS Natural]

Well to disprove it you have to make the argument to the white community that a lot of problems facing black men isn't self-imposed in some way or another, but it is in fact their fault.

Don't pity people becuase they haven't forced themselves to live in the slums

Being from New Jersey I have seen my fair share of institutionalized racism in the school system and racial profiling that goes from the police all the way up through the legal courts. I think it's funny when people see Oprah or any wealthy African-American then come to the conclusion, "all right they did it so racism must be over!".

I currently work at a privately owned company in Florida and have been confronted with prejudice on more than one occasion just in my 5 months working there. Honestly, I don't just "imagine" racism....no matter how much I try to ignore it there is always someone or something to remind me that it still exists.

 

[Cooter]

America has an awful history with race that surely has left scars for many black people. I don't think anyone can deny this. Racism is still alive and well with some areas holding on to it more than others.

The question is how long is it going to take to get rid of it for the most part. I'm not sure you can ever get rid of it completely but it's a nice dream.

I was born in 1979 and grew up in a multi-racial area in the San Francisco area and may not be aware of just how bad it is in other places. That being said, I do believe things are getting better and after 1 or 2 more generations I can see it getting really better.

All the stats about more blacks in jail and more carrying HIV are alarming but have more to do with class than race IMO.

Do I think we still need affirmative action? No. I understand it's intent but most young people who are losing these jobs based on race had absolutely nothing to do with the past and hold no ill feelings towards blacks. At some point it has to go.

Barack's speech was very helpful in turning the corner but I think the only thing that will really help is time. I respect his loyalty towards his pastor but some of that shit he was saying was hurtful to many white people and is the type of attitude that will delay the healing proccess.

That's my two cents.

 

[whytemyke]

I'm so sick of white people.

i mean, there's a shit ton i could say here about my race, but what's the point.

any polling data done yet? i wanna know if this is actually making a difference in the population or is just the media stroking itself off.

sad thing is that john mccain is just sitting back sharpening his knives and getting ready.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm so sick of white people.

i mean, there's a shit ton i could say here about my race, but what's the point.

any polling data done yet? i wanna know if this is actually making a difference in the population or is just the media stroking itself off.

sad thing is that john mccain is just sitting back sharpening his knives and getting ready.

Tomorrow's tracking polls may show whether there's been any movement.

How have the news cycles been?

 

[CoolTrick]

any polling data done yet? i wanna know if this is actually making a difference in the population or is just the media stroking itself off.

Yup. A new PA poll showed Obama losing REALLY badly.

Clinton was up by 26 points total.

40+ points ahead in women.

Obama only leading by 35 points in the BLACK vote.

 

[Cooter]

Can you imagine the chaos in the Democratic party if the supers see a huge Obama loss in PA, decide that this pastor story has made Obama unelectable, and decide to give it to Hillary?

It would be getting talked about in our schools 200 years from now.

Oh, it would also all but clinch a McCain win.

 

[Particle Physicist]

:facepalm:

whats even worse. i constantly see hillary supporters complain about obama supporters on this board.. yet.. at the same time.. they call them cult like, and make up names like obamapologists. funny. i dont think i have seen obama supporters belittle hillary supporters in the same way.

 

[CoolTrick]

i dont think i have seen obama supporters belittle hillary supporters in the same way.

Hey Amir0x?

This is why I think it's appropriate to play the victim card here. This is the kind of reality altering that goes on here amongst the rabid Obama fans.

 

[Tamanon]

Can you imagine the chaos in the Democratic party if the supers see a huge Obama loss in PA, decide that this pastor story has made Obama unelectable, and decide to give it to Hillary?

It would be getting talked about in our schools 200 years from now.

Oh, it would also all but clinch a McCain win.

Yeah, it would actually probably set race relations back 20 years.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Hey Amir0x?

This is why I think it's appropriate to play the victim card here. This is the kind of reality altering that goes on here amongst the rabid Obama fans.

what?! you serious. the only people i've see playing the victim card are hillary supporters. 'obama's cult scares us away from every thread'

all i did was post an observation. a quite hilarious observation..



and there you go again. 'rabid Obama fans'


look at the choice of words you use.

 

[Innotech]

democrats, lol

 

[whytemyke]

I feel like that commander from Top Gun should have sat down with Obama and been like, "Listen son, you're black. And let's not bullshit, your family name AINT THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS! You gotta be doin it BETTER and CLEANER than the next guy."

oh well. I really liked obama. too bad he's gonna be tagged with the black panthers and/or tupac for the rest of the election.

 

[Gaborn]

Completely wrong, but useful in that it sums up how white conservatives in America tend to view racial issues.

Isn't it nice how you can criticize someone without refuting him? I mean, there was certainly a LOT you could've taken and disagreed with there, but seriously, are you of the mindset that blacks cannot hold any political office they wish? Perhaps you were challenging the Secretary of State, as well as the previous secretary of state (and, I believe, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development) are black. Since, you know, he's COMPLETELY wrong. But then, you didn't mean COMPLETELY as in COMPLETELY, did you? You meant, "completely" as in "people who disagree with my view of the world are discussing the matter in a way I don't accept."

 

[Tamanon]

Isn't it nice how you can criticize someone without refuting him? I mean, there was certainly a LOT you could've taken and disagreed with there, but seriously, are you of the mindset that blacks cannot hold any political office they wish? Perhaps you were challenging the Secretary of State, as well as the previous secretary of state (and, I believe, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development) are black. Since, you know, he's COMPLETELY wrong. But then, you didn't mean COMPLETELY as in COMPLETELY, did you? You meant, "completely" as in "people who disagree with my view of the world are discussing the matter in a way I don't accept."

To be fair, those aren't elected offices

 

[whytemyke]

Yup. A new PA poll showed Obama losing REALLY badly.

Clinton was up by 26 points total.

40+ points ahead in women.

Obama only leading by 35 points in the BLACK vote.

what's it trending though?

Isn't it nice how you can criticize someone without refuting him? I mean, there was certainly a LOT you could've taken and disagreed with there, but seriously, are you of the mindset that blacks cannot hold any political office they wish? Perhaps you were challenging the Secretary of State, as well as the previous secretary of state (and, I believe, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development) are black. Since, you know, he's COMPLETELY wrong. But then, you didn't mean COMPLETELY as in COMPLETELY, did you? You meant, "completely" as in "people who disagree with my view of the world are discussing the matter in a way I don't accept."

WHAT?! the director of HUD is BLACK?!?!?!??!?!?!?

ZOMG MEGATON BOMBZALDROPPEN :O

 

[polyh3dron]

Obama handled this situation as well as he possibly could have. It's much better than the way Bush handles situations by saying that if you're not with him, you're with the terrorists.

 

[Tamanon]

whytemyke: The poll he's citing doesn't really trend, it was just a snapshot from PPP. We honestly won't know how things work out for at least a few more days.

 

[AmishNazi]

what?! you serious. the only people i've see playing the victim card are hillary supporters. 'obama's cult scares us away from every thread'

all i did was post an observation. a quite hilarious observation..



and there you go again. 'rabid Obama fans'


look at the choice of words you use.

Ding ding ding. This is why APF is on my ignore right now because I was "attacking" him by answering his questions or calling him out on baiting. You call people delusional and rabid they just might have something to say about that.

 

[harSon]

Yup. A new PA poll showed Obama losing REALLY badly.

Clinton was up by 26 points total.

40+ points ahead in women.

Obama only leading by 35 points in the BLACK vote.

Isn't PPP ranked 20ish among other polls in terms of accuracy? :lol

 

[siamesedreamer]

the disconnect here is for the vast majority of americans, ordinary income tax IS 15%...

Yeah, sure...whatever you say.

A married couple would have to make UNDER $32,000 a year to stay within that bracket.

 

[whytemyke]

whytemyke: The poll he's citing doesn't really trend, it was just a snapshot from PPP. We honestly won't know how things work out for at least a few more days.

That's what I'm thinking. Even if they had a decent trending poll that was reliable, today's speech will effect those numbers still.

Clinton's camp is being smart in just staying silent more or less on the issue. Obama is doing everything he can but it might not be enough, which sucks ass.

And worst of all McCain is doing an overseas romp, storing up HP and EXP to drop KOTR on whoever the DNC nominates. "While the Democrats were squabbling over who can best contend with me, I was overseas shoring up relationships with the people that the next President of this country will need to work with, my friends!"

 

[XxenobladerxX]

I feel like that commander from Top Gun should have sat down with Obama and been like, "Listen son, you're black. And let's not bullshit, your family name AINT THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS! You gotta be doin it BETTER and CLEANER than the next guy."

oh well. I really liked obama. too bad he's gonna be tagged with the black panthers and/or tupac for the rest of the election.

How come every time you post in the political threads,its always obama doom and gloom bullshit? I have been watching talk in these threads,and you have said alot of crazy things,but this really takes the cake.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

sad thing is that john mccain is just sitting back sharpening his knives and getting ready.

This is what pisses me off about this. While people can chase their tails on the probably eternal issues related to race & gender, the person who's least fit for the job (IMO) can make off with the win in November. Self-inflicted 'divide and conquer' is something that seems to most fuck Dems over on a regular basis. Race, gender, and their relations issues are something that all three candidates can affect to a limited degree, but we're here supposed to be focusing on who's a better person for the job to steer us out of the path of the real shitstorm created over the last ten years and not an age-old problem that can only really be changed by the citizenry of America. There's no law that can fix the simple-minded thinking of those so hung up on race, sex, sexual orientation, and religious leanings.

 

[Absinthe (Permed)]

Where are all of the people at that claimed this wouldn't affect his campaign? I think that it's obvious that it will affect his campaign negatively in at least some way.

 

[Dark Octave]

I just saw Obama's speech on the news. He talked about how the pastor was as much a part of his life as his white grandmother who has said racist remarks in his presence.

Every American has people like this in their lives, both black and white (and everything else). You can't disown people you love from your life just because of their background views.

Bottom line, Obama has never said, or even been reported to had said anything racial, so why is he on trial about this? For those of you crying for blood and blowing this out of proportion, next time your long term friend, parent, or sibling, says something racial about any group, drop them from your life like you expect Obama to. If you can't, shut the hell up about this issue already.

 

[whytemyke]

How come every time you post in the political threads,its always obama doom and gloom bullshit? I have been watching talk in these threads,and you have said alot of crazy things,but this really takes the cake.

Well first off I challenge you to back this up. Actually, any of it I challenge you to back up. Just because you don't understand what I'm saying doesn't make it crazy.

What's worse is that you think a joke quote from Top Gun is serious political dialogue.

Unless you're talking about the Black Panthers/ Tupac label, in which case I suggest you start listening to conservative talk radio. This was the miracle that Mccain needed because now, instead of bitching about how McCain isn't conservative enough, they're starting to adapt an "Anyone but Obama" mentality. Please, tell me how that's good for anyone OR tell me that it's not happening. Obama's stupid minister (and yes, he is stupid for letting shit like this leak in the middle of a heated primary after the GOP already had their candidate chosen) basically just united the Republican base against the DNC rather than letting it stay split over 'social issues'. Before there was a chance that evangelicals woudl stay home, but now that they just fed Fox News all the talking points they need to get out the vote, there's not much hope of it happening.

This is what pisses me off about this. While people can chase their tails on the probably eternal issues related to race & gender, the person who's least fit for the job (IMO) can make off with the win in November. Self-inflicted 'divide and conquer' is something that seems to most fuck Dems over on a regular basis. Race, gender, and their relations issues are something that all three candidates can affect to a limited degree, but we're here supposed to be focusing on who's a better person for the job to steer us out of the path of the real shitstorm created over the last ten years and not an age-old problem that can only really be changed by the citizenry of America. There's no law that can fix the simple-minded thinking of those so hung up on race, sex, sexual orientation, and religious leanings.

And here's the biggest piece of irony-- the current delegate system was established so that your scenario mentioned wouldn't happen. :lol Call is poetic justice, I suppose.

 

[CoolTrick]

Isn't PPP ranked 20ish among other polls in terms of accuracy? :lol

In terms of accuracy it was more accurate on the Texas vote than SurveyUSA.

what's it trending though?

WAY pro-Clinton. Another Quinnipiac poll showed Clinton gaining four, Obama losing one since their last update.

 

[SRG01]

I'm not looking at those statistics unless it's Gallup or some other reputable source.

 

[speculawyer]

Jeez . . . I finally got around to hearing some of that speech. Wow . . . brutal honesty. Great speech. The guy is inspirational.

 

[SRG01]

Jeez . . . I finally got around to hearing some of that speech. Wow . . . brutal honesty. Great speech. The guy is inspirational.

Obama has, on more than one occasion, inspired me to think about entering politics, I kid you not.

 

[CoolTrick]

I'm not looking at those statistics unless it's Gallup or some other reputable source.

This is a bad defense to use, because before all this controversy erupted, SurveyUSA was amongst those showing the LARGEST pro-Clinton difference. (20 points.) If the polls are now all trending Clinton, then you can imagine the SurveyUSA future poll showing the same, widening margin.

 

[XxenobladerxX]

Obama has, on more than one occasion, inspired me to think about entering politics, I kid you not.

Same here,I want to learn more about american politics and why it can get fucking stupid and downright frustrateing for people.

 

[SRG01]

This is a bad defense to use, because before all this controversy erupted, SurveyUSA was amongst those showing the LARGEST pro-Clinton difference. (20 points.) If the polls are now all trending Clinton, then you can imagine the SurveyUSA future poll showing the same, widening margin.

Your polls. Show them to me.

Give me something other than PPP to work with.

The point is that it's bad to start with weak data in the first place.

 

[harSon]

In terms of accuracy it was more accurate on the Texas vote than SurveyUSA.



WAY pro-Clinton. Another Quinnipiac poll showed Clinton gaining four, Obama losing one since their last update.

Ahhh I see, it's polling in a single state outweighs it's overall average. My mistake.

 

[speculawyer]

the estate tax effects less than 10% of americans, and none of them are in the middle class, unless dying with a 4 million dollar estate is middle class.

also, you are an idiot talking out of his ass

10%? Not even close. Less than 0.3%!

It is amazing how many completely ignorant people rant about the "death tax" as it has been renamed by spinners when they would NEVER have to pay it . . . only the wealthiest 0.3% pay it. That's right . . . the top 99.7%. Not the top 90% or 95% . . . top 99.7%

Currently, the wealthiest 0.27% of Americans are the only ones who pay estate taxes. In 2001, over half of all estate taxes were paid by 3,502 people with estates larger than $5 million — representing the top 0.14% of all Americans.

http://www.faireconomy.org/news/estate_tax_faqs

 

[speculawyer]

Obama has, on more than one occasion, inspired me to think about entering politics, I kid you not.

Yeah, I sound like another Obamaniac, but his speeches can give me goosebumps. It is not just the great oration . . . in fact that race speech wasn't all that well delivered. It is the brutal honesty. Very refreshing.

 

[whytemyke]

the estate tax sucks for rich people. but... i'm not rich so fuck 'em. :lol (really has the tone of sorkin-esque high minded debate, doesn't it?)

 

[CoolTrick]

Your polls. Show them to me.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/pa/pennsylvania_democratic_primary-240.html

Clinton jumped six points in the latest Quinnipiac poll.

momentum in the Pennsylvania Democratic primary battle has shifted back to New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, who now leads Illinois Sen. Barack Obama 53 – 41 percent among likely primary voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.

This compares to a 49 – 43 percent Sen. Clinton lead in a February 27 poll by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN uh-pe-ack) University. In that survey, the momentum was with Sen. Obama who had narrowed a 52 – 36 percent gap from a February 14 poll.