I'm not sure he is the person to ask about Vive stuff.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Oculus Store update ties DRM to headset
- Thread starter Zepp Twofist
- Start date
I'm not sure he is the person to ask about Vive stuff.
GearDraxon
Member
It's likely that anyone with the Touch controllers is under NDA at the moment.
Given the way he has talked about the vive, I suspect he hasn't actually used it extensively.
I can tell you I have seen some bad shit from touch with regards to it losing tracking pretty easily. Almost everyone who has had their hands on touch is under heavy NDA, hence why it's so quiet about performance. But I am not, and just like the rift headset, touch loses tracking frequently from the dual camera setup.
And the people I am around aren't game makers, they are engineers at a large aeronautics entity.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Sounds like you've never played The Climb. It would be a very awkward game to play with motion controllers because people don't want to hold their hands up in the air for an extended period of time and would likely decrease the sense of immersion when your hands in real life are not doing what the do in the game because you can't replicate what is happening when you climb a mountain when you're standing on the floor.
For example, if you start with 2 hands on a single ledge and then reach up to grab another ledge to pull yourself up, what are you going to do in real life to mimic that? You going to pull your hand down to simulate lifting yourself up? The problem being that in game your hands are now in 2 different positions in game but in real life they are next to each other. Your other option is you just use Touch to select the grip and then the game moves your in game character to the proper position. So if you do that there is now a disconnect from the1:1 motion because your hands are attached to a ledge in the game but just doing whatever in real life.
1:1 motion controls work well for stuff like guns but it doesn't work when one of the main gameplay aspects relies on your hands being in precise positions in the game world and often in static positions.
The truth of the matter is that a lot of games for the Oculus were started YEARS ago before the motion controls were even a thing. They weren't going to all of a sudden switch the input controls the devs had been building games around. There is a reason Oculus has actual full games whereas Vive's roomscale games mostly come across as tech demos, they haven't had enough time yet.
Please go read the replies people have already posted re: "ZOMG motion controls don't work with The Climb! You obviously haven't played it!"
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
First.
Guys, it's going to be pretty fruitless to continue this conversation because it's pretty clear that Thomas is making a game that is Oculus exclusive. He has probably invested a lot into it and is not about to change his mind. It's bad enough when it's just the people who play games and are invested into one system or the other. We tend to try to convince ourselves that we've made the right choice with our investment when what we invested in screws up somehow. It's going to be doubly so for someone in Thomas' position.
Second.
Man it's going to make me really, really sad if I can't play Thomas' next game because I chose to get a Vive. I loved Ori... that game was wonderful and you can tell so much talent went into it. I still listen to the sound track sometimes. I was so excited for news for their next project and their next game was going to be a instabuy, but... if it is only coming for Rift and not for Vive...
Guys, it's going to be pretty fruitless to continue this conversation because it's pretty clear that Thomas is making a game that is Oculus exclusive. He has probably invested a lot into it and is not about to change his mind. It's bad enough when it's just the people who play games and are invested into one system or the other. We tend to try to convince ourselves that we've made the right choice with our investment when what we invested in screws up somehow. It's going to be doubly so for someone in Thomas' position.
Second.
Man it's going to make me really, really sad if I can't play Thomas' next game because I chose to get a Vive. I loved Ori... that game was wonderful and you can tell so much talent went into it. I still listen to the sound track sometimes. I was so excited for news for their next project and their next game was going to be a instabuy, but... if it is only coming for Rift and not for Vive...
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Sure if you'd like to link them.
They have demonstrated the Climb to people using Touch controllers....
Needless to say using standard controllers it is a bit of a shit experience anyway, so if using motion controllers isn't a redeeming aspect, then there isn't much hope for the game overall.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
There is a Climb defense force? I guess everything has its ardent fans.
I'm new be nice
Member
What Vive owners are asking for isn't such a big deal. I haven't seen Vive owners asking for direct support from Oculus, like Valve has done fairly nicely with Steam, they just want the chance for someone to develop a wrapper, and if the SDK updates and breaks it they'll be fine waiting for an update from that 3rd party.
The problem is simply that the DRM is, while useless, giving the impression that their sales aren't wanted, and that doesn't spell well for the future. Updating the SDK and accidentally breaking the wrapper is fine, but turning it into a needless war isn't. It shouldn't have to be like that, and it was never stated that it was going to be like that.
Oculus doesn't need to be doing this. They've gained tons of mindshare over the years, have great software, have absolutely stellar hardware (minus roomscale), and are poised for a good future.
If there are piracy issues that should be combated through software not hardware. The hardware should be (and is) good enough to sell itself, anyone who'd buy a cheap Chinese knock off would be depriving themselves of their stellar industrial design, and probably fatiguing their face.
They've reviewed so nicely on shit like the Verge and Tested. It's just seems needless.
That's how I see it anyways, as someone who only owns an Rift. Plus I don't know shit about anything anyways lol asf;iadfslkjafdsljkhadfsljghadfslk
The problem is simply that the DRM is, while useless, giving the impression that their sales aren't wanted, and that doesn't spell well for the future. Updating the SDK and accidentally breaking the wrapper is fine, but turning it into a needless war isn't. It shouldn't have to be like that, and it was never stated that it was going to be like that.
Oculus doesn't need to be doing this. They've gained tons of mindshare over the years, have great software, have absolutely stellar hardware (minus roomscale), and are poised for a good future.
If there are piracy issues that should be combated through software not hardware. The hardware should be (and is) good enough to sell itself, anyone who'd buy a cheap Chinese knock off would be depriving themselves of their stellar industrial design, and probably fatiguing their face.
They've reviewed so nicely on shit like the Verge and Tested. It's just seems needless.
That's how I see it anyways, as someone who only owns an Rift. Plus I don't know shit about anything anyways lol asf;iadfslkjafdsljkhadfsljghadfslk
Do you plan or have you worked any bit for Vive support for your game (or prototype)?
If you decide to go on with it, will the VR VR enabled also in the Steam version or just in the Oculus Home one?
thomasmahler
Member
It could be that I'm a bit biased, sure, but I love Valve and I think they'll figure it out in the end. Personally, I just think room-scale VR isn't really what we need since if you really dipped your feet into it, it's more of a 'cool little VR demo' thing than actually all that interesting for games. All these crazy games where you have to teleport yourself because you'd run your nose against the walls in your room show that fairly nicely. There's an inherent limitation there that you just can't overcome with clever design. Our prototype would actually be pretty good for room-scale VR, but even there the limitations would bite us in the butt in the end.
I'm not the only one who shares that opinion, btw. - CliffyB thinks the same. I just don't think the Vive at the moment and room-scale VR are going to do it for the mass market and mass-market adoption is necessary for VR to thrive. Neither is the current Oculus Rift setup btw, due to the price and the lack of must-have experiences.
We're not ONLY working on this VR prototype, so don't worry. And even this VR prototype is something we wouldn't ever make exclusive to one platform, so we'd definitely look into shipping it on the Rift, PSVR and the Vive. In fact, we rejected some offers already that'd tie us to one platform, since it makes no sense for the game we're planning to be exclusive. Without giving away the kitchen sink, the game itself works well on everything, but it's just really insanely cool once you're 'in there' and can use motion controls like Touch to directly interact with things instead of having to use your mouse (which isn't bad and is even a bit more direct in some cases, but it loses a bit of the 'holy shit!' factor).
My intention wasn't to shit on Vive or Valve as a company, since they're a brilliant bunch. I just want to see VR succeed and I think Oculus at the moment has a more thought-out plan.
thomasmahler
Member
If we go ahead and turn it into a consumer product, we'd definitely support the Vive and its motion controls
And yes, I think VR support is something that should just automatically be detected if there's a HMD connected. Hiding that behind a storefront is bullshit.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The Climb is phenomenal. Doesn't need motion controllers, there was a lengthy discussion in one of the VR threads about the potential issues with them that are overcome by the head + triggers controls.
Defense force? I've played a whole lot of both Vive and Rift's offerings and I think it might be my favorite VR game available. One I've played a fair amount of now and don't think motion controls are going to add any significant value to because it was designed in their absence.
Chairmanchuck
Member
That might be the case if we are talking about hardware itself, but the whole Oculus Home experience is shit for the consumer.
Every IT-Intern could directly see what that client needs and even for a launch storefront Oculus Home (non VR) is bad.
-Only CC payments
-No support for most regions yet
-No cloud saves
-No backup of your game files
-No achievements
-No chat
-No community features
-No refunds (which is totally important for VR content. Imagine you get sick after 5 minutes of playing it and cant refund your 50€ game)
-A horrible UI as a store. I cant even search for any game on it.
-No user reviews
-Bad Videoplayer (There is a reason why people recommend Big Screen or Virtual Desktop for that)
-No GearVR/Oculus cross-plattform (I remember they said you might be able to play GearVR content on the Oculus)
-No other headsets allowed it seems
-Strange VR to normal monitor screening
This is compared to Steam, but even Origin or uPlay had some of these basic features when it launched. And its especially strange, because GearVR offers some features of that.
"It has just launched" isnt a good excuse for it.
From people who played it it seems its a good game, just might be overpriced...
If we go ahead and turn it into a consumer product, we'd definitely support the Vive and its motion controls
And yes, I think VR support is something that should just automatically be detected if there's a HMD connected. Hiding that behind a storefront is bullshit.
That's great to hear for both, because I really enjoyed Ori and I'm sure you can build something wonderful in VR.
I forgive you for your Rift bias.
(joking)
moniker
Member
Oh my god not NAILS!
I wonder how the "mass-market" has managed installing light fixtures and putting up paintings on walls.
thomasmahler
Member
I don't think this is comparable. If I'd ask my girlfriend if it's cool to throw away our couch table and install cameras that overlook our living room, she'd probably not be happy.
Moving your couch table away was already a major pain in the ass when it came to the Kinect, but installing wall-mounted cameras that overlook your room is just nothing the non-nerds would ever do.
1) they aren't cameras
2) plenty of people have 5.1 surround speakers installed in their living rooms that are bigger than the 2 lighthouses
3) oculus rift with touch is likely to need to reposition the two cameras so they are High up and wide apart. Sound familiar? And they'll have to have cables routed back to the PC so arguably even less practical
SneakyStephan
Banned
VR headsets are peripherals, not a platform. It should be (and shall be) treated as such.
And people game on pc because they want to get away from walled gardens that split userbases , and because they don't want to have hardware vendors force them to stay in their ecosystem.
These are the early days of VR , committing to a single ecosystem (ignoring how anti consumer that is) is the dumbest thing you can possibly do right now.
It is inevitable that (if VR takes off) more headset makers will enter the market and it is guaranteed that in 2-3 gens at least one of them will have superior hardware and features than oculus. This is what happens EVERY time a new technology goes mainstream, no exceptions.
And when that time comes, you'll be locked into oculus' walled garden and be forced to buy the inferior hardware or lose the ability to play all the exclusives in your library.
For someone who loves to pretend to look at things 'in the long run' you sure act short sighted.
The odds of oculus even still being around in a decade are slim (I'm sure atari, and colecovision fans would have disagreed too), yet you're willing to let this pos company set a precedent of hardware exclusives games on PC.
And again,the concept of a walled garden or hardware exclusives on pc is grossly anti consumer and should never be tolerated to begin with. Who do oculus think they are?
Right now they're nothing but a gnat on the pc platform's giant back, and in a decade they likely won't even exist anymore, or get heavily outcompeted by more competent companies with superior headsets
Oculus Rift, Vive, PSVR, et al are proper platform launches. NeoGAF coping guidelines
Awful lot of port begging going on already.
Awful lot of port begging going on already.
Can you point out the port begging, Mr. mod?
Azure Dream
Member
Shu Yoshida didn't walk out on stage in front of a bunch of technically-minded people and cameras and say, "Oh yeah, I don't care if you get PS4 games running on PC. Go for it." And then people bought PS4 games and started going for it, and Sony went "Whoa, whoa, WHOA."
That seems a bit of an overstatement. There are two cables for the Rift (the HMD terminates in both an HDMI and USB connection, and the sensor cable). If you add Touch it would include another sensor. The other port is for the Xbox One controller, which is wireless.
thomasmahler
Member
Wait, am I missing something? My Rift has a displayPort and a USB Port and the Sensor needs a USB port, too.
Where do you get 4 USB ports?
Touch will need one for the sensor and the Xbox pad has another cable.
https://www.oculus.com/en-us/rift/ states: USB Ports 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port
Wrestlemania
Banned
It's really not a "nightmare". It's four USB (three currently before Touch) plugged into the back of my PC, with one thin cable running from the headset to the back. I have no visible wires other than the one going to the headset, and there will only be a bit of more annoying cable for me to deal with if I decide to have a camera at the back of my room for room scale with Touch. I doubt I will.
The Vive has a breakout box with three plugs from a thick wire on the headset, then two cables to the PC and a power supply. The lighthouses needing power was a real pain for me as I didn't have a power socket close to the ideal corner of the room to have it situated, so I had to buy an extension cord and run that across the room.
I don't think it's really worth trying to make any great claims about one being considerably better or worse than the other with regards to cables, but Rift is certainly a simpler plug and play experience at the moment.
But ultimately, what you consider to be that "more thought-out plan" boils down to compromising the full extent of the VR experience in order to make it easier to sell to the mainstream. At least that's what I gather from your posts in this thread and regarding room-scale.
Would that be a fair summary?
C'mon, there's no need to over-defend VR. Compare a student having an Xbox in their rented room with a student installing the trackers on the walls. No difference my arse.
I was thinking about this and my guess is that it's designed to be stepped on a lot without getting messed up. Rift's cable is a lot less intrusive, but it's probably equally less robust
Have you not paid attention to apple laptops lately?!
They are elegant enough to require a cable Octopus of converters / adaptors to work with their poor port solutions
I was replying to lovely thomas who seems to think that Rift is the bees knees, and the Vive is evil hellspawn that no real people would ever manage to install in their houses. So I was just comparing those two. Of course its different to a student with an xbox but he never mentioned that and I'm not comparing to that.
Really though, if you have a gaming PC capable of running a VR headset, you can probably handle most of the technical hiccups of getting the vive to work. So you're literally left with
webcam (rift) vs lighthouses (vive). Neither are difficult to set up. I have my lighthouses on the wall but plenty of people just put them on shelves or bookcases.
Where did he say there was no difference?
It was merely suggesting it isn't as complicated as the nonsense the other poster made it out to be.
likely.
Occulus doesn't support room scale so there isnt any walking around in rift games, so the cable wont get twisted / stepped on / kicked.
I think part of it has to do with the headset needing more bandwidth since tracking information is captured from it rather than the rift where the tracking information is captured with the ir camera/s. It would be nice if the Vive cable was thinner or condensed into a single wire rather than 3..
thomasmahler
Member
Overreaching much?
I think the Oculus thing is just a device that's more targeted towards the mass-market and that's a good thing. Again, I doubt many non-hardcore people will put the lighthouses up into their rooms and use room-scale VR. It's just not going to happen and I don't think room-scale VR makes any sense right now. It might at some later stage when tracking is figured out within the devices instead of a camera-based solution. And I have yet to see a game that actually makes good use of room-scale VR.And yeah, I'm using Oculus Touch right now and only have these two sensors on my desk - No wallmounting or nails required.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Plugging in four USB cables and an HDMI is pretty simple.
Overreaching much?
And yeah, I'm using Oculus Touch right now and only have these two sensors on my desk - No wallmounting or nails required.
And of course your set up has 360 room scale tracking?
Or you trying to pretend to vive can't set up easily to the standard rift setup without any trouble? And wouldn't need wallmounts or nails then?
You don't get to argue both ways.
Overreaching much?
And yeah, I'm using Oculus Touch right now and only have these two sensors on my desk - No wallmounting or nails required.
It wasn't a big thing. I just don't think putting up a couple of cubes is a big deal. However lots of people do seem to think it is a bit of a problem (especially renters), and clearly it is more difficult than a webcam with integrated stand like the OR.
Pops Maellard
Member
Overreaching much?
And yeah, I'm using Oculus Touch right now and only have these two sensors on my desk - No wallmounting or nails required.
My Rift has literally been collecting dust (can post pics of layer of dust) since I got it. I used it for a total of 4 hours myself, showed it to two people until it made one of them nauseous, and then boxed it up. Room scale VR is the only type of VR that does make sense right now. Even from the Rift's camera based hardware perspective, it's the only way to experience VR. Seated, or even standing experiences with a traditional game pad, are awful.
Wrestlemania
Banned
The best VR experience I've had, The Climb, is a seated (mostly) experience with a pad. So I think you can downgrade that "awful" to a "something I'm not interested in".