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[RainbowL33T]

And in other news,Bourdais got his fourth consecutive champ car championship.Not bad at all.I hope he can do well in F1 next year.

 

[skybaby]

What I posted is still not confirmed as official. One of the marshals is Portuguese, and he leaked the news to Portuguese press. Still going as unofficial. It started as saying they would lose points but places remained, then no penalties at all.

 

[iapetus]

They won't disqualify the drivers. It would make a complete mockery of the championship.

I'm expecting constructors points for the race removed and a hefty fine for each team.

Not disqualifying the drivers also makes a complete mockery of the championship. It's okay to get points by cheating if to lose those points would improve another driver's standing? Frankly I wish they'd just covered the whole thing up and let the result quietly stand (that would obviously have made a complete mockery of the championship too, but at least nobody would have noticed...)

Bizarre that such a good season from the point of view of racing has been such a joke from the point of view of results - both the constructors and drivers championships finally decided by the FIA not the on-track activity.

 

[Shinobi]

What I posted is still not confirmed as official. One of the marshals is Portuguese, and he leaked the news to Portuguese press. Still going as unofficial. It started as saying they would lose points but places remained, then no penalties at all.

 

[skybaby]

Calm down Shinobi, it's confirmed! My mole told me five minutes ago the press associates from the FIA went on the Interlagos P.A. and said the results of the race will not be changed, and no punishiment would take place.

So, CELEBRATE! YES!

 

[reilo]

Not disqualifying the drivers also makes a complete mockery of the championship. It's okay to get points by cheating if to lose those points would improve another driver's standing? Frankly I wish they'd just covered the whole thing up and let the result quietly stand (that would obviously have made a complete mockery of the championship too, but at least nobody would have noticed...)

Bizarre that such a good season from the point of view of racing has been such a joke from the point of view of results - both the constructors and drivers championships finally decided by the FIA not the on-track activity.

The race in itself was decided on the track. Lewis fucked up. Alonso could not defend his title. Everything that has happened in the previous races did not matter and the championship was decided by the last race - and the best driver took it.

How can you not be happy for Kimi and Ferrari? They have been nothing but a class act this season.

McLaren and their drivers lost both the constructor's and the driver's championship. Period.

 

[PS2 KID]

Good News! Kimi remains WDC.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63567

BMW, Williams unpunished; results confirmed

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 21st 2007, 23:45 GMT

BMW Sauber and Williams will not be penalised despite discrepancies in their fuel sample temperatures during the Brazilian Grand Prix, the race stewards said.

Fuel samples taken from both cars of both teams during their pitstops in Sunday's race showed temperature degrees outside the permitted variation.

Article 6.5.5 of the Formula One technical regulations states: "No fuel on board the car may be more than ten degrees centigrade below ambient temperature."

FIA technical delegate Jo Bauer said all fuel samples from the four cars showed temperature of 12 to 14 degrees centigrate lower than the ambient temperature at the time.

However, after deliberations at Interlagos, the race stewards decided not to penalise the teams, confirming the race results of the Brazilian Grand Prix as official.

This means Kimi Raikkonen is confirmed as the 2007 world champion.

 

[Shinobi]

Yes!! Repost time!!

Spoiler

Of course the ruling is abitary as fuck and makes no sense whatsoever, but that's the FIA for ya.

 

[iapetus]

The race in itself was decided on the track. Lewis fucked up. Alonso could not defend his title. Everything that has happened in the previous races did not matter and the championship was decided by the last race - and the best driver took it.

Except it ultimately came down to a decision by the FIA that would determine what the final result was. Once you've got that situation where the three drivers were found to have breached the rules, whether you decide to strip them of their championship points or not is a decision that determines who wins the championship. Sure, Lewis could have not made a stupid mistake and could have won the championship in his own right, and that's why I'd have been perfectly happy if none of these fuel irregularities had come to light and Raikonnen had won in a purely on-the-track decision. The fact that everything has been determined by decisions by the ruling body leaves a bad taste in the mouth after this season, though - which shouldn't be the case, because in a lot of other ways it's been a great season.

If the FIA has any plans of being consistent, by the way, this ruling means that teams can now use colder fuel than the rules permit without fear of being penalised. Hands up everyone who thinks that'll actually be the case next season. No, me neither.

 

[godhandiscen]

"The Sun" is a load of garbage. "At least Alonso didn't win" :lol . I was aiming at Marca (Spanish press) having the shittiest frontpage, but way to prove me wrong English press. Bitter tears all around. :lol

 

[marvelharvey]

"The Sun" is a load of garbage. "At least Alonso didn't win" :lol

:lol Gotta love The Sun

One thing I love about Kimi, is he seems to be a drunken, club going, womanizing, playboy, always hear as being the life of a party from what I read...but when on camera, he's the world's dullest man, with zero personality and a monotone voice. I often wonder if it's an act.

Anyway, great that the FIA didn't intervene, they've already done their fair share of fucking things up this year.

 

[RainbowL33T]

What would've been the benefit anyway of BMW to cheat in that GP?2nd place for team championship was secure and both pilotes could not change their final ranking.

They say that the heat on the circuit could be a cause and there was doubt enough to just let it go.

At one point the track was at 65 C degree,something that I've never seen in F1 since I've been following the sport.

 

[Shinobi]

:lol Peter Windsor just called into Wind Tunnel, saying McLaren is going to appeal. :lol

 

[iapetus]

"The Sun" is a load of garbage.

Um. Yes? Doesn't take their F1 coverage to make that stunningly obvious.

 

[reilo]

:lol Peter Windsor just called into Wind Tunnel, saying McLaren is going to appeal. :lol

Oh for fucks sakes.

 

[skybaby]

Except it ultimately came down to a decision by the FIA that would determine what the final result was. Once you've got that situation where the three drivers were found to have breached the rules, whether you decide to strip them of their championship points or not is a decision that determines who wins the championship. Sure, Lewis could have not made a stupid mistake and could have won the championship in his own right, and that's why I'd have been perfectly happy if none of these fuel irregularities had come to light and Raikonnen had won in a purely on-the-track decision. The fact that everything has been determined by decisions by the ruling body leaves a bad taste in the mouth after this season, though - which shouldn't be the case, because in a lot of other ways it's been a great season.

If the FIA has any plans of being consistent, by the way, this ruling means that teams can now use colder fuel than the rules permit without fear of being penalised. Hands up everyone who thinks that'll actually be the case next season. No, me neither.

Man, calm down. They said they were below temperature, but they did not say what argument the teams used for not getting a penalty. If the facts they presented prove its not their fault, then so be it, even if they were outside regulations. I'm sure we will hear more during the week.
Not everything is black and white you know. Not getting a penalty does not equal to the FIA letting them go and allowing rules to be broken.

Edit: it's really amazing the complains of Mclaren's supporters here when the team was convicted of stealing other teams plans and all they got was a "fine" and didn't lose any driver's points when they obviously benefited from it. Quite hypocritical IMO.

 

[skybaby]

So, here's the official explanation and why they were not punished: The measurement used by FOM was different to the one used by Météo France, the company hired by the FIA to provide the teams with meteorological data, at the time of measurement. Judging by the differences noted (1-3c) I think it's very plausible.
OMFG CHEATING WHORES WTF HAMILTON DESERVES IT MCLAREN NEVER CHEATED etc lol wtf

Oh Mclaren, give up already...

 

[StoOgE]

fucking ron dennis

 

[jey_16]

cant blame them for trying considering everything thats happened this year....i doubt the FIA will do anything considering the conflicting evidence

btw....does anybody know where i can find that little video speed had at the end of the broadcast with that guy talking about F1 (courage, tenacity or something?) over some great scenes from the season

 

[Shinobi]

Fernando Alonso says he will hang his head in shame for the sport if Lewis Hamilton is named champion

Doubt remains about the result as the FIA launched an investigation into irregularly cold petrol used by the two BMW and a Williams car which all finished ahead of Lewis Hamilton.

Cooler fuel means it can be loaded into the car at a greater rate and being denser, is also said to give improved performance for several laps. If the FIA had disqualified them, then Lewis Hamilton would be World Champion, moving up from 7th to 4th in the Brazilian race.

Finally the stewards decided not to punish the three drivers, and the current result stands – Kimi Raikkonen is World Champion.

However now McLaren Mercedes say they will appeal, and so things remain in doubt.

Fernando Alonso is reported this morning as commenting that it would be shameful if Hamilton is named winner because of this. He told the Cadena Ser radio station that his face ‘would fall in shame for the sport’ if it happened.

The ex World Champion commented that Raikkonen was a ‘just champion’.

‘If you have more points you are the Champion, as in football’, he said. He has won six races and Hamilton and I four’.

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_13162.shtml

:lol Who says F1 is boring...

 

[maxmars]

:lol :lol :lol

I went with the family to the mountains to fetch some chestnuts, and this is what happens while I'm away. Shame I didn't record the race! Awwww!

If you could see the smile on my face.. :lol

 

[Koshiro]

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_13162.shtml

:lol Who says F1 is boring...

Yup, Lewis must not win it this way. He would become a symbol of everything that is wrong with the sport. Best let him win next year instead.

I mean, McLaren are right to appeal if teams have been cheating (hey, Ferrari did the same thing and look what happened) but given the potential results this time, they really shouldn't bother. The results are not positive for themselves.

 

[Shinobi]

I don't think McLaren is really serious about overturning the result. And I don't think they believe they have a chance of getting the results overturned, even though the case they're making is a strong one. I think they simply want to embarass the FIA in revenge for all the shit they've piled on them over the last year. And I can't really say I blame 'em.

 

[iapetus]

Man, calm down. They said they were below temperature, but they did not say what argument the teams used for not getting a penalty. If the facts they presented prove its not their fault, then so be it, even if they were outside regulations. I'm sure we will hear more during the week.
Not everything is black and white you know. Not getting a penalty does not equal to the FIA letting them go and allowing rules to be broken.

Yes, not getting a penalty equals the FIA letting them go and allowing rules to be broken. The rules on fuel temperature are explicit (though the penalty for breaking them isn't, as far as I can tell from skimming the standard and technical rules). If the fuel temperatures were as described then they're 30-40% outside the permitted temperature differential.

Edit: it's really amazing the complains of Mclaren's supporters here when the team was convicted of stealing other teams plans and all they got was a "fine" and didn't lose any driver's points when they obviously benefited from it. Quite hypocritical IMO.

Did you miss the part where I said several times I have no problem with Raikonnen winning? It's the manner of the win that annoys me. There's been too much politics and rules-mongering in this season, and I don't see how anyone can claim that to have the final results of the championship swing entirely on a stewards' decision and subsequent appeal is a good thing.

About the only thing that could be worse would be if McLaren win their appeal.

And for the record, I missed the part where McLaren were shown to have benefitted from Ferrari's plans. The definitive evidence that got them convicted for having the details of the plans known through the team was an incident in which the plans turned out not to be of any use to them because of the fundamentally different design of the cars.

 

[Hyoushi]

 

[winalot]

If anyone thinks that were it the other way round Ferrari (Or anyone else in the position) wouldn't appeal, they're kidding themselves. I'd also like to say that as a McLaren and Hamilton fan I'm still glad to see Kimi finally get a championship it's been a long time coming and he deserves it.

I don't see anything coming of the appeal and I honestly believe that it isn't how Hamilton would want to win his first championship, either. Mistakes were made by both him and the team but ultimately it was China that gifted it away.

The season would have been even better if there wasn't so much shit flinging behind the scenes but hopefully next year the majority stays on the track.

 

[skybaby]

And for the record, I missed the part where McLaren were shown to have benefitted from Ferrari's plans. The definitive evidence that got them convicted for having the details of the plans known through the team was an incident in which the plans turned out not to be of any use to them because of the fundamentally different design of the cars.

You obviously have not read the full report, just the filtered parts through the British press. But I'm not going to go back to that, instead let's list how many times Hamilton was benefited from the FIA "fairness":

- Monaco: Hamilton complains Mclaren favored Alonso in the race strategy. Investigation is opened, but nothing happened.

- USA: The other way around, Alonso complains to the Stewards that Mclaren is favoring Hamilton, no investigation opened.

- Nürburgring: Hamilton is lifted back into track. Everyone else? Tough luck. FIA later says "please don't let that happen again".

- Hungary: Alonso loses his pole position as he delays his pit exit, thus slowing down Hamilton. But before that, Hamilton disrespected a team order to let Alonso drive past him on the track.

- Italy: Hamilton cuts a chicane to overtake Massa and doesn't even go under investigation.

- Japan: Hamilton brake-checks less than 5 meters from the safety car, causing an accident between 2nd and 3rd placed cars. No investigation the same day or the following week after investigation was opened. (Alonso was punished with 10 grid positions last year in Hungary for brake-checking a back runner in a friday pratice, under dry conditions, and no accidents resulted from it). Kubica is punished instantly for touching Hamilton, in a clear race incident.

- Brazil: Hamilton uses an extra set of wet tires, but only the team is fined. During qualifying, stays in front of Kimi's fast lap and once again, nothing happens.

 

[Kroole]

And for the record, I missed the part where McLaren were shown to have benefitted from Ferrari's plans.

Well they did get Ferrari's floor banned thanks to the info they got from Stepney. A move which definitely helped McLaren gain a head start vs Ferrari.

 

[megateto]

You obviously have not read the full report, just the filtered parts through the British press. But I'm not going to go back to that, instead let's list how many times Hamilton was benefited from the FIA "fairness":

- Monaco: Hamilton complains Mclaren favored Alonso in the race strategy. Investigation is opened, but nothing happened.

- USA: The other way around, Alonso complains to the Stewards that Mclaren is favoring Hamilton, no investigation opened.

- Nürburgring: Hamilton is lifted back into track. Everyone else? Tough luck. FIA later says "please don't let that happen again".

- Hungary: Alonso loses his pole position as he delays his pit exit, thus slowing down Hamilton. But before that, Hamilton disrespected a team order to let Alonso drive past him on the track.

- Italy: Hamilton cuts a chicane to overtake Massa and doesn't even go under investigation.

- Japan: Hamilton brake-checks less than 5 meters from the safety car, causing an accident between 2nd and 3rd placed cars. No investigation the same day or the following week after investigation was opened. (Alonso was punished with 10 grid positions last year in Hungary for brake-checking a back runner in a friday pratice, under dry conditions, and no accidents resulted from it). Kubica is punished instantly for touching Hamilton, in a clear race incident.

- Brazil: Hamilton uses an extra set of wet tires, but only the team is fined. During qualifying, stays in front of Kimi's fast lap and once again, nothing happens.

There goes the list of things that has made Spain yell in happiness that Dennis screwed up, double standards and that. If I was Fernando, I would be wearing a t-shirt with Hungary printed on it.

 

[Ghost]

*sigh* F1 is such a colossal joke of a sport. The governing body is a disgrace, they've totally failed to create any kind of consistant competitive sport on the track, so they just manipulate the rules to create whichever situation gives them the most money!


The whole of the FIA just needs to quit and let some people who aren't totally corrupt and/or life long friends/enemies with the team bosses.

But they wont because they all seem to be as arrogant as they corrupt.

 

[megateto]

They need a clear set of rules and stick to them, not making things up as needed.

 

[skybaby]

*sigh* F1 is such a colossal joke of a sport.


The whole of the FIA just needs to quit and let some people who aren't totally under the thumb of the top teams take over.

But they wont because they all seem to be as arrogant as they corrupt.

Oh it has always been like this, don't worry. Ever heard of Jean-Marie Balestre?

 

[Shinobi]

Heh...gotta admit, it's hard to argue that list.

 

[JonathanEx]

iapetus, let me explain why there is no penalty. Clause 298.4 of the FIA rulebook, which states: 'Ferrari must win, even if we have to fix it.'

Spoiler

I don't have a favourite constructor, I just like posting often and being a jerk.

 

[marvelharvey]

The whole of the FIA just needs to quit and let some people who aren't totally corrupt and/or life long friends/enemies with the team bosses.

After Moseley goes, next in line for the presidency is John Todt... once he's at the helm we'll probably look back at 2007 as a golden age of fair play.

 

[MrSardonic]

I'm glad Kimi won. He was the best throughout the second half of the season and it's been long overdue. I don't think Hamilton was at fault for losing out though - the team fucked up with this tyres in China, and this time it was the a technical fault which lost him 30 seconds. But apart from a small handful on incidents he was pretty lucky overall with car reliability, and he got away with murder, so he shouldn't (and won't) complain. It is some form of justice that no McLaren driver won the championship given that their team were involved in the whole "spying scandal" thing.

Got to laugh at people crying about Ferrari bias. And yes, at least that cunt Alonso didn't win.

 

[woeds]

Edit: it's really amazing the complains of Mclaren's supporters here when the team was convicted of stealing other teams plans and all they got was a "fine" and didn't lose any driver's points when they obviously benefited from it. Quite hypocritical IMO.

Your memory must be letting you down, McLaren didn't steal a thing.

 

[JonathanEx]

And yes, at least that cunt Alonso didn't win.

I think we can all agree on this.

 

[megateto]

I think I can agree on this.

Fixed.

 

[iapetus]

Well they did get Ferrari's floor banned thanks to the info they got from Stepney. A move which definitely helped McLaren gain a head start vs Ferrari.

This is true, but the floor was illegal, so it's hardly a bad thing.

You obviously have not read the full report, just the filtered parts through the British press. But I'm not going to go back to that

That's alright, it's fine for you to admit you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[tetsuoxb]

I think everyone who isn't braindead can agree on this.

Fixed again.

 

[megateto]

Fixed again.

Braindead? Please, be nice and let have people their own opinion, without going into not so nice comments, would you?

 

[HolyCheck]

I think everyone can agree on this.

Fixed.

Fixed.

 

[tetsuoxb]

Braindead? Please, be nice and let have people their own opinion, without going into not so nice comments, would you?

Ironic, considering you go around editing the opinions of others.

But I would expect nothing less than this kind of whining from an Alonso fan.

 

[megateto]

Ironic, considering you go around editing the opinions of others.

But I would expect nothing less than this kind of whining from an Alonso fan.

Ironic? Please, just check the edit I did. I simply changed "all" for "I", which I think is far more correct and I was being quite polite and nice.

 

[X26]

*sigh* F1 is such a colossal joke of a sport. The governing body is a disgrace, they've totally failed to create any kind of consistant competitive sport on the track, so they just manipulate the rules to create whichever situation gives them the most money!


The whole of the FIA just needs to quit and let some people who aren't totally corrupt and/or life long friends/enemies with the team bosses.

But they wont because they all seem to be as arrogant as they corrupt.

F1 reminds me of the WWE, only with more driving, due to how fixed it all is

 

[mrklaw]

stop railing on Iapetus. He's one of the sanest people in this thread right now.


So we shouldn't let the BMW drivers be penalised becasue that might not let Kimi win? But if it really did give them a 5-10BHP boost, isn't it possible that Hamilton could have fought back to the necessary 5th place, but was prevented from doing that partly because of the unfair performance of the cars in front of him?

So how would that make it 'fair' that Kimi wins?

I agree neither outcome is ideal. There are too many rule and regulations these days. Perhaps all rules need an associated penalty. It seems the rules are clear but the penalty for breaking one is down to too much interpretation by the FIA. If it clearly said (for example), that exceeding the fuel temperature limits will result in disqualification, or a penalty of 3 places in the race, or starting on the back of the grid in the next race - it doesnt' matter. Whats needed is clarity.

 

[Kroole]

This is true, but the floor was illegal, so it's hardly a bad thing.

Would Ferrari have been asked to remove them without McLaren taking deal of illegal documents? Probably not. Or like last season, it would have taking the teams quite a long time of investigating before making the appeal, like Renaults mass damper system las season.

 

[skybaby]

That's alright, it's fine for you to admit you don't have a leg to stand on.

Just a tiny bit of the report for you:

Nigel TOZZI: Rather than playing lawyer’s games, let me raise the question. The e-mail is in the FIA dossier, behind Tab 5, on page 46. Mr Lowe, in that e-mail, in the second paragraph, you say: “By the way, we are now certain that the lever in their car is for brake-balance”. Mr Lowe, certainty is a very high test. One way to reach it is from a source you know to be impeccable, such as Mr Stepney.

Patrick LOWE: That is a correct observation, hypothetically.

Nigel TOZZI: As I understand it, you say that this was not the basis for your certainty, but rather it was reports which you received.

Patrick LOWE: It was partly from reports, and partly from an assessment which we made. Analysis of the situation shows that there are no other things that this could possibly be. That is the principal reason for the certainty. There are so few things possible within the regulations. That was our feeling, but we applied some rigour to that thinking. As I explained in my statement, a number of us brainstormed and came to that conclusion.

What reports, you ask?

3.18
On 12 April 2007 at 12.25 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Mr. Coughlan and asked “ can you explain me as much as you can, Ferrari’s braking system with the [reference to detailed technical information]? Are they adjusting from inside the cockpit…?”
3.19
After a number of exchanges about whether a description would be too complicated to articulate by e-mail, Mr. Coughlan replies on 14 April 2007 at 14.40 with a technical description which purports to be a description of the principles underpinning the Ferrari braking system. Ferrari have confirmed that the description given is an accurate (though incomplete) description of the principles of its braking system. Coughlan concludes with a statement that “we are looking at something similar”. This latter statement strongly suggests that the McLaren system was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied, must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge.
3.20
The e-mail exchange between Mr. de la Rosa and Mr. Alonso dated 25 March 2007 at 01.43 also describes some aspects of the McLaren braking system and states that “with the information that we have, we believe Ferrari has a similar system” and goes on to describe highly specific elements of the Ferrari system (which cannot be set out here for confidentiality reasons but which clearly demonstrate knowledge of Ferrari’s confidential information).

Is March too late for they to change their braking system for the season? Jonathan Neale, Managing Director, disagrees:

There isn’t much on the car that stays the same; maybe the seatbelts don’t change. From the moment the car is formed in January to the last race in October, we make an engineering change on average every twenty minutes.

 

[skybaby]

stop railing on Iapetus. He's one of the sanest people in this thread right now.


So we shouldn't let the BMW drivers be penalised becasue that might not let Kimi win? But if it really did give them a 5-10BHP boost, isn't it possible that Hamilton could have fought back to the necessary 5th place, but was prevented from doing that partly because of the unfair performance of the cars in front of him?

So how would that make it 'fair' that Kimi wins?

I agree neither outcome is ideal. There are too many rule and regulations these days. Perhaps all rules need an associated penalty. It seems the rules are clear but the penalty for breaking one is down to too much interpretation by the FIA. If it clearly said (for example), that exceeding the fuel temperature limits will result in disqualification, or a penalty of 3 places in the race, or starting on the back of the grid in the next race - it doesnt' matter. Whats needed is clarity.

The rules also say you must stay more than 5 meters from the safety car. It goes both ways you know.
Ferrari wasn't the team involved in a series of scandals and stupid arguments between their drivers on top of sheer arrogance. They stuck together as team and won where it matters, and for that they deserve both championships.