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Official LAIR thread

Pachinko

Member
I'm gonna have to be Marconelly's counter point. He figures the 5's are unwarranted after clearing nearly 10 missions, I feel the 5's are being generous. The game simply can't seem to differentiate between a dash and a 180 flip for me. This means simply turning around is a major ordeal because I wind up dashing 3 or 4 times instead of doing the 180 flip. The end result is that I've dashed far enough in the wrong direction that I just slowly fly back towards the mission objective. Hilariously enough, when I actually want to do a dash , on more then 1 occasion I've had the 180 flip actually work... which means instead of moving faster towards the objective I'm now facing the wrong way. Some of the folks in this thread seem way to easy on this game, just because you can pull off the 180 flip(which is a very important technique in any flight game) 90% of the time doesn't mean the controls are good, good controls translate into pulling off any movement 100% of the time. If the best even someone practiced at the game can pull off is 9/10 that tells us that 1 out of every times you attempt to a simple required action , it will not work. It's cool developers want to use the sixaxis to provide a more immersive gaming experience, I applaud any attempts made toward the goal but is it really so much to ask for atleast an option to play it the way most of us are used to? Julien eckburt mentions it'd be too clunky if it were traditional controls, who is he to know? Let the people that buy the game decide how they want to play it.

Not everyone will hate the controls ;however, most people likely WILL have issue with the clunky mission objectives ... and I'll go ahead and say it- horrible graphics. Firstly the missions themselves are just retreads of ideas seen in many flight games of the past and most especially in rogue leader. Stage 2 is an escort mission. Now , I don't know about you guys but I find escort missions a generally terrible and lazy way to build a gaming experience. Instead of worrying about your own health bar and performance in a game you have to worry about weather a slowly moving scripted NPC with little to no AI is going to get killed or not. In my case I'd have ordinarily just played the game and looked past it as lazy and rushed development but I was fighting with the controls the entire time so it just made an escort mission that much worse. It should again be mentioned though, they went to the most annoying of all flight game ideas after only 1 single stage.

Yes, I called lairs graphics horrible , I even bolded it for emphasis. See , just because a game turns on every special effect known to man and throws 8 billion polygons and 9000 objects on screen at once does not mean it looks good. The color pallet in Lair is filled with babyshit greens and dogshit browns. I personally find it very unappealing. Add to that a framerate which on my television at 720p is very poor once you hit stage 2. Single digit poor. The engine simply isn't as optimized as it should be. I find the general artwork in the game to be very boring and generic too. It's funny, I can bring up warhawk for the control argument quite easily because it gave me the choice and with graphics, it has a very similar engine- large sweeping environments, great water , volumetric clouds yet unlike lair it manages to be locked at a never wavering 30fps. Factor 5 also has this ... idono what to call it- a 3d bilinear filter perhaps ? in the training stables level , go close to the ground and just fly forward, you'll discover that 3 feet from the dragons nose the ground isn't just receiving a texture pass but that the polygons literally morph out of the ground to make it appear more detailed. It's kind of a bizzare effect. It's great that the game runs in 1080p ... allegedly.. but I've always been in the framerate before all else category so to me the game does in fact look ugly. This is not some lame attempt at a troll. Agree or disagree , it's just my opinion.

I'm merely doing my part to give gamers out there on the fence more evidence to make a decision with. Some part of me wants everyone out there to rent it and try it because it really does seem that 2 out of my 3 complaints are the voice of the majority here.
 
FightyF said:
Well, I consider 5 average...so your 7.0 means it's a good game.

5=average
6=above average
7=good
8=great
9=excellent
10=perfection

But I can understand why you are giving it a 7...I suppose you are giving it a 7 because due to the manner in which most mags hands out scores...7 is currently the score given to average games, am I right?
IMHO the average game is a "good" game (7) unless you think that a game should be better than most games for being good (by being good I mean that most people may have fun with it).
 

hteng

Banned
ouch at the scores... i think the reviewers that gave the game a 4 or 5 is going overboard; the controls honestly can't be that bad. No game has worst control than Armored Core 4 (from newbie's prospective) but you get really used to it with some time and I love the game; yet gamespot gave the game at least a 7. The reason reviewers are a lil bit strict on the scores are probably because of the heavy production values and the hype.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Pachinko said:
The game simply can't seem to differentiate between a dash and a 180 flip for me which means simply turning around is a major ordeal

FYI keeping L2 or R2 pressed allows to turn around quickier.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
Pachinko said:
The game simply can't seem to differentiate between a dash and a 180 flip for me which means simply turning around is a major ordeal, I wind up dashing 3 or 4 times and simply flying in an arc to right myself or worse I"ll be attempting to dash forward and wind up actually flipping to face the wrong way.
Lift the controller straight up then tilt towards you at the end - works for me every time.
 

Acosta

Member
Pachinko said:
I"m gonna have to be marconalley's counter point. He figures the 5's are unwarranted after clearing nearly 10 missions, I feel the 5's are being generous. The game simply can't seem to differentiate between a dash and a 180 flip for me which means simply turning around is a major ordeal, I wind up dashing 3 or 4 times and simply flying in an arc to right myself or worse I"ll be attempting to dash forward and wind up actually flipping to face the wrong way. It gets really aggravating and it could all have been alleviated were this games controls simply a clone of warhawks flight controls. Not everyone will have so many issues with the controls ;however, most people likely WILL have issue with the clunky mission objectives ... and I'll go ahead and say it- horrible graphics. This game looks nice in theory and for the first mission this theory remains true , unfortunately when you get to stage 2 it all comes crashing down, the frame rate dips into the single digit mark and it becomes virtually unplayable. So between fighting with the controls, puking from the nauseating color scheme and low framerates it all adds up to a very poor experience. As far as how much my opinion is worth , well I didn't care for any of the rogue leader games, I found them too difficult and didn't like the chug a lug graphics after the showcase stages. Lair is the ultimate example of a game that is a big steaming pile of shit wrapped up in a very fancy expensive box , the shit inside is frozen though so you have to let it thaw for a few stages before it really sets in just how horrible it is. I suppose though, if you don't hate the controls, can get past the dull missions, nauseating graphics and are interested in the story then you may actually not hate the game enough to atleast finish it, otherwise, stay away... stay far far away.

1) Learn to structure your posts, nobody is going to read that.

2) Is "Marconelly" and, no offense, I will take his opinion over yours any day.
 

patsu

Member
kaching said:
Lift the controller straight up then tilt towards you at the end - works for me every time.

Hear ! Hear !

I just tried some more Lair today, but couldn't get far enough to clear the serpent mission.

I can double-confirm that the control is spot on. L2/R2 slows down the dragon (if you can't handle the speed). 180 flip works almost everytime for me (over 90%). Finding enemy dragons in the serpent mission can be a problem though.
 

Rat Salad

Banned
Acosta said:
1) Learn to structure your posts, nobody is going to read that.

2) Is "Marconelly" and, no offense, I will take his opinion over yours any day.

What the hell?
Is your first point trying to make his complaints somehow mute? Because I read that paragraph without any problems,and understood what he was trying to say. I think just maybe youre just abit too pissed because he's trying to warn a few folks who are on the fence about this game,save them 60 dollars,like maybe rent it first.
 

spwolf

Member
Rat Salad said:
What the hell?
Is your first point trying to make his complaints somehow mute? Because I read that paragraph without any problems,and understood what he was trying to say. I think just maybe youre just abit too pissed because he's trying to warn a few folks who are on the fence about this game,save them 60 dollars,like maybe rent it first.

umh, his posts pretty much invalidate everything that most GAF members already said - he doesnt like anything and hence his post is more like trolling than anything else..

horrible graphics, controls and framerate? give me an brake... even our resident fps-whore doesnt think so.
 
spwolf said:
umh, his posts pretty much invalidate everything that most GAF members already said - he doesnt like anything and hence his post is more like trolling than anything else..
He has an opinion that isn't like yours (but is more like the reviewers)... so he's wrong, and trolling? Give me a break.
 

arcader

Banned
As of this morning I am having a strange problem where eveytime I try to goto "Lair online" to check my score the game locks as it is fetching the scores from the server....this forces my entire PS3 to lock up and require hard reboot.

WTF?
 

Ramenman

Member
Anyone today's Penny Arcade homepage ?

I think it totally describes what happens to some people here.

I'm not talking about the game, only about the reactions we can see on GAF.
 

Hammer24

Banned
darkressurection said:
Ok, I am gonna ask one more time.
HOW LONG IS THE GAME!
This thread is moving fast enough that my post keeps getting lost.

Its either too long or too short - depends on how you look at it.
/GAF
 

DenogginizerOS

BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
At the very least, this games deserves to be rented. One has to remember that most folks reviewing these games are not the brightest bulbs and they would more than likely be making games rather that reviewing them if they could. I am neither defending or promoting Lair, but I do think people should at least give at a whirl if they are interested in dragons and air combat.
 

Acosta

Member
Rat Salad said:
What the hell?
Is your first point trying to make his complaints somehow mute? Because I read that paragraph without any problems,and understood what he was trying to say. I think just maybe youre just abit too pissed because he's trying to warn a few folks who are on the fence about this game,save them 60 dollars,like maybe rent it first.

Why should I be pissed? As you can see I have no opinion about Lair because I have not played it, but given he wanted to be "marconalley" counter point, I just informed him that I would take his impression over him as Marconelly is a poster I respect a lot and use to make good points (and well structured post, that is a plus). That is a fact.

And his text was horribly structured, do you want to discuss it?. By the way, you should learn to read and understand, because there is a difference between "readable" and "well structured". If is bad structured few people are going to want to read it. That is another fact and a good tip, he can takes it or not you but I won´t refrain myself to say it.

By the way, is the second time I see you jumping over people correcting other posters. My post was not intended as an insult or a offense, it was just an observation.
 

Hammer24

Banned
darkressurection said:
Well I am just asking hour wise if it around 10hrs I may get it.

IIRC I read somewhere that it was said to be around 10-12 hours.
But with the control problems it might take a good while longer, ´till you see the end credits.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Norml said:
Was this already posted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxPKXfRRNAY

Shows why some may have issues with controlling, and some gameplay.

now THAT'S informative.

Reminds me of Fight Night 3, where just franticly moving the right stick around is punished, and controlled motions are the way to play. Still, I don't know whether this controlscheme would work for me personally, but I can see how it could work for some people.
 

Core407

Banned
nofi said:
What the fuck's he trying to do? IT'S A DRAGON.

He's demonstrating how the controls could feel broken if played like that. Notice all the movement he tries to do don't register when he is spazzing out? I'm assuming a lot of people around here who can't perform certain moves are probably moving too quickly.
 

nofi

Member
Core407 said:
He's demonstrating how the controls could feel broken if played like that. Notice all the movement he tries to do don't register when he is spazzing out? I'm assuming a lot of people around here who can't perform certain moves are probably moving too quickly.

Well, I've not played it, but the last time I flew a real dragon you had to lovingly caress it's head in the direction you wanted it to fly, not smack it around like an idiot like some seem to think you do.
 

Hammer24

Banned
nofi said:
Well, I've not played it, but the last time I flew a real dragon you had to lovingly caress it's head in the direction you wanted it to fly, not smack it around like an idiot like some seem to think you do.

So its not a bug, but a feature?
Aaah, now I get it! ;)
 

nofi

Member
Hammer24 said:
So its not a bug, but a feature?
Aaah, now I get it! ;)

Sure it is. It's like why waggling the analog stick in Gran Turismo doesn't make the car fly back and forth like a rabbit on a leash.

Lair: The Real Dragon Simulator.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
nofi said:
Well, I've not played it, but the last time I flew a real dragon you had to lovingly caress it's head in the direction you wanted it to fly, not smack it around like an idiot like some seem to think you do.

Yeh, I loved that smacking around back in the days. Those were the good times, the times you were actually allowed to smack around a 1200 pound beast and not get eaten by it.
 

Core407

Banned
nofi said:
Well, I've not played it, but the last time I flew a real dragon you had to lovingly caress it's head in the direction you wanted it to fly, not smack it around like an idiot like some seem to think you do.

Well just from general experience with people, if something doesn't work, they tend to try and force it. So say I can fly around but I can't perform dashes or side swipes in Lair. Chances are I'm going to really thrust the controller around, thinking that this will get the moves to register when in reality, I should be doing the opposite. I haven't played the game yet but I can definitely see some of this stuff happening. I'm not saying Lair will be 9, but a 4.5 is so friggin' low that it just boggles my mind. I can't imagine a game with such a high production cost and importance to its system would be able to get so far in development without issues like this being brought up.
 

nofi

Member
Core407 said:
Well just from general experience with people, if something doesn't work, they tend to try and force it. So say I can fly around but I can't perform dashes or side swipes in Lair. Chances are I'm going to really thrust the controller around, thinking that this will get the moves to register when in reality, I should be doing the opposite. I haven't played the game yet but I can definitely see some of this stuff happening. I'm not saying Lair will be 9, but a 4.5 is so friggin' low that it just boggles my mind. I can't imagine a game with such a high production cost and importance to its system would be able to get so far in development without issues like this being brought up.

Surely there's no more thrusting than something like Super Rub-a-dub, it's just a vertical knock. Again, not played it, so probably talking out of my arse, and thus I can't comment on any review scores. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying.
 

Core407

Banned
nofi said:
Surely there's no more thrusting than something like Super Rub-a-dub, it's just a vertical knock. Again, not played it, so probably talking out of my arse, and thus I can't comment on any review scores. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

But seriously though. What a waste of millions of dollars. This definitely should have been their second title. The first should not have been so massive in scale.
 

nofi

Member
Core407 said:
But seriously though. What a waste of millions of dollars. This definitely should have been their second title. The first should not have been so massive in scale.

It'll be a cult hit. You watch. Wait till it comes out on video and then the buzz will start. :p
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
BTW I also read some previews where ppl had problems with the ID-harvesting in Folklore ( the part where you had to press R2 and make some kind of gesture), I had no problem at all with that. So I'm guessing that maybe we're treading on some kind of new ground here. Maybe Sony should've released some kind of game that would allow us to gently slide into this whole motion sensor woven into hardcore gameplay thingy?
 

Core407

Banned
neorej said:
BTW I also read some previews where ppl had problems with the ID-harvesting in Folklore ( the part where you had to press R2 and make some kind of gesture), I had no problem at all with that. So I'm guessing that maybe we're treading on some kind of new ground here. Maybe Sony should've released some kind of game that would allow us to gently slide into this whole motion sensor woven into hardcore gameplay thingy?

I honestly think the mechanics in the sixaxis just aren't that great. There were rumblings that a new and improved version with better tilt functions was being sent out to developers.
 

Hammer24

Banned
nofi said:
Sure it is. It's like why waggling the analog stick in Gran Turismo doesn't make the car fly back and forth like a rabbit on a leash.

Lair: The Real Dragon Simulator.

I really don´t know what kind of dragons you guys in the UK have - must be the Huge Dragons of Anticipation.
I mean, it takes more than a second from your carefull stroking to the dragons reaction, judging by the video.
 

nofi

Member
Hammer24 said:
I really don´t know what kind of dragons you guys in the UK have - must be the Huge Dragons of Anticipation.

The ones that guard our castles.

Hammer24 said:
I mean, it takes more than a second from your carefull stroking to the dragons reaction, judging by the video.

It does NOT take over a second to register proper commands. Lair gameplay /= that Youtube video.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Just some quck things to mention:

- Pachinko mentioned 180 turn doesn't work well for him. I've seen this complaint over and over, but I really can pull it off pretty much every time. You have to jerk the controller up pretty quickly, and it's not the nicest hand gesture to perform, but it works. Maybe the problem that some people have with this is that in their hands the controller bounces back a bit after they stop moving it? I don't know, but I can only say that I didn't have problems with it.

- Framerate is better in 720p and it's pretty much locked 30FPS in 480p, so people with SD TVs (or those with HDTVs willing to switch XMB to 480p only) will have different experience in that sense than those with HDTVs.

My biggest complaint as far as visuals is the art direction which is kinda bleh for the most part.

FightyF said:
Well, I consider 5 average...so your 7.0 means it's a good game.

5=average
6=above average
7=good
8=great
9=excellent
10=perfection

But I can understand why you are giving it a 7...I suppose you are giving it a 7 because due to the manner in which most mags hands out scores...7 is currently the score given to average games, am I right?
Yeah, I based that score on the kind of quality the game usually has to have to get such score from places like Gamespot, EGM or IGN. No matter what they say, scores at or below 5 at those places are reserved for games with no redeeming features whatsoever.

Edge uses the score range like you've listed, but I had in mind outlets I mentioned above. Also, to me, there are different shades of average - Lair is average in gameplay, but it's way above average in sound, presentation, and (for the most part) visuals.
 

vpance

Member
urk said:
So, gamers. ;)

Pretty much :)

If Lair came out 2 generations ago it there wouldve been much less crap about the controls.

Lair 2 if it's ever made should take place in the future and have cybernetic dragons with radar and can turn on a dime..
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
Hammer24 said:
I really don´t know what kind of dragons you guys in the UK have - must be the Huge Dragons of Anticipation.
I mean, it takes more than a second from your carefull stroking to the dragons reaction, judging by the video.

Dragons aren't exactly smart, takes them a while to figure out to know they're being stroked...
 

Belfast

Member
Norml said:
Was this already posted - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxPKXfRRNAY

Shows why some may have issues with controlling, and some gameplay.

I just don't know how anybody can watch this video and then continue to complain about the controls afterward. It's de facto proof that the game is more than playable using the Sixaxis. I'm not going to go so far as to say this is a new vanguard in control schemes. Except in some cases, I'm still skeptical of waggle in all its forms, BUT I made the comparison to the introduction of analog sticks earlier in this thread. How many of you were immediately comfortable using it when you first laid hands on Mario 64 or one of those other early games that used stick control?

I personally remember trying to figure out how to grip the N64 pad and failing miserably at making Mario move in one direction or at a consistent speed. Once I learned to relax, the controls felt a lot more precise.
 
has the apologism and outright cognitive dissonance gone so far that we're asserting realistic controls for dragons?

oh my goodness

just wow
 
belfast, dude, it takes two minutes with the game to figure out that spazzing doesn't work. that video is a hilarious example of someone thinking they had the answer, when the reality is that EVERYONE figures out the controls quickly -- what the video doesn't address is that for an action game, those amazingly immersive controls remain totally unresponsive and cumbersome, and still suck.

the folks that believe they should be unresponsive and cumbersome because LOL THAT'S WHAT RIDING A REAL DRAGON IS LIKE are batshit fucking nuts and are also possibly furries.

(also, let's not address every other gross failing the game puts on parade, from terrible qte-style events to broken mission design to poorly-communicated "escort" missions to a lack of any meaningful feedback to godawful mid-mission transitions, both in terms of cutscenes and gameplay. plus it's dog-ugly!)

even with somehow responsive controls appropriate for an action game -- after all, we aren't playing flOw here -- this game is terribly, terribly designed. i'd give it a 5 even if i liked the controls.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Drinky Crow said:
what the video doesn't address is that for an action game, those amazingly immersive controls remain totally unresponsive and cumbersome, and still suck.

What about my videos? I could bomb a city, defend the mantas, and get into some one-on-one fights with other dragons without any problems.

You keep forcing the fact that this game absolutely fails in it's motion control, when in fact it's the player that might not be totally accustomed to it. Drinky, you suck at this game...nothing wrong with that. I suck at some games too. The unfortunate thing is that with analog control people wouldn't have to suck as much as they do, but alas, it's not that way.
 
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