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Ok, We need to know this: Is the XSX more powerful than the PS5 or not?
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Night.Ninja
Banned
Do you have a link?
MasterCornholio
Member
Technically AMD chose to go with 10 CUs per shader array. Their higher end GPU that has 80CUs has only 10 CUs per shader array. It seems like with RDNA2 instead of adding more than 10 CUs per shader array to achieve more performance they just increased the arrays while keeping those CUs. The reason why I believe they did this is because it's easier to feed those 10 CUs than something like 18 CUs per shader array. They also focused on increasing their clock speeds which also helps keep those CUs feed. Not to mention the whole business with to their infinity cache.
While it's true that more CUs does leaf to a higher theoretical TF count it doesn't necessarily mean greater efficiency of those CUs are not increased the correct way.
We have to wait and see what happens but currently the comparisons are showing us that these systems are almost identical. And that's with the XSXs vastly superior CU count.
Physiognomonics
Member
Watchdogs is actually a bad example as both games are locked at 30fps in this game so we wouldn't know how high they could get without the framerate cap. Besides there is no "gulf in compute and memory bandwidth" between those consoles. I wouldn't call around 20% a gulf, would you? It's just DF that are being ridiculously again.I thought it was the tech analysts that determine the superior version. People like Digital Foundry and @NXGamer for example.
As for WatchDogs legion based off what Digital Foundry said it's basically a tie.
Watch Dogs: Legion - essentially identical on PS5 and Xbox Series X
Featuring a beautifully rendered open world recreating one of the world's most iconic cities, while leaning heavily int…www.eurogamer.net
Reading through the review I found this part pretty interesting.
Pretty interesting how that massive gulf in compute and memory bandwidth lead to Watchdogs being identical on both platforms. I guess the PS5s other advantages are really helping it out in this case.
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Pasedo
Member
Out of curiosity and I dont have time to sift through the thread to find it but when is Xbox going to release their properly built sdk for the Xbox series x. Or has this been out but developers are only now starting to make games using it and if so when will we start to see this in play?
Who knows, there are hardly any trust worthy reports , but my guess is you could start seeing improvements 6 months 1 , 5 year from now.
If you want to see it that way ... sure.
I wouldn’t get to excited for a next gen console to have 36 CUs the same as 36 CUs in last gen, when you see CU counts for high end GPUs rising in counts ..
And parallel code that uses all those CUs will be standard in future game engines.
But that’s me
geordiemp
Member
The common dev environment works great for RDNA1 such as 5700XT, and RDNA2 6800XT is competing with Nvidia cards on non Ray tracing games, so the dev kit works fine for all other AMD chips.......except XSX we are supposed to believe ?
DeltaPolarBear
Member
You are, once again, trying to argue about power that you can't see. Good luck to that. It didn't work for the Atari Jaguar back then, it doesn't work now. Game consoles are about games, not fake numbers. And if you don't understand that you are as clueless about gaming as Microsoft.
See, there was never any issue with Xbox tools. The reality is that Series X as a whole runs worse than PS5, tools is just the excuse to justify what we already see.
Just as Halo Infinite was ready to launch this year, the same way Series X tools were ready for developers. The fact that they were inferior tools doesn't mean that the tools didn't exist. To claim that the tools were unfinished, is just the current narrative that Xbox could somehow magically improve in a short time. That is all. The tools are what they are, Xbox tools are not as good. That doesn't mean they didn't finish them. Just as Hao Infinite was not unfinished at reveal, it was just badly made.
Saying it is incomplete is just a convenient lie. Because the alternative is admitting incompetence. "I can do a good job! I just didn't make the deadline!"
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MilkyJoe
Member
It will do.
II_JumPeR_I
Member
They will face limits sooner than Microsoft...So will sony.
geordiemp
Member
Performance on AMD seems to scale nicely with number of shader arrays and clocks for GAMING,.
80 CU from AMD needed 8 shader arrays (8x10)
AMD should of done an XSX and done more CU per shader array, they could of done 6 shader arrays x 14 CU and had even more TF.
Hold on, actually AMD did just add more CU, for servers and great for minining. Strange eh
Maybe the new engines will make use of CU and AMD can retiire RDNA2 and bring back VEGA... and XSX will be king with VEGA.......Look 16 CU per array, think of that gaming power for bitcoin.
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DeltaPolarBear
Member
Because of what? So far they have shown to be more capable than the Xbox team. They delivered PS5 as they planned to. If Xbox team is more capable, we would have seen the results already.
FullMetalx117
Member
Xbox has brute force power
PS5 has elegant/creative power
sometimes finesse wins
PS5 has elegant/creative power
sometimes finesse wins
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Gudji
Member
If you say so. lmao
MilkyJoe
Member
Physics is physics
II_JumPeR_I
Member
Imagine you have to create a new toolset with new GPU features during a pandemic and working from home....
I dont take the "tools" argument as an excuse yet. If games still fail to not run a bit better on SeriesX by Fall 2021, then MS failed/lied pretty hard.
But its not hard to believe that the current xbox software isnt there where it should be.
And its hilarious seeing the same guys in every console warrior topic that cheer for PS5...
Like i said we will see how things turn out in the long run.
II_JumPeR_I
Member
Get off that console warrior shit already...
If you really believe that the ps5 hardware will keep being close to the SeriesX hardware then you are really naive.
Ugh why do even bother with this immature shit.
Gudji
Member
You're the only console warrior here breh. Get real.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
The thing with physics, is that theory loses to practical demonstration. If your physics model doesn't match reality, your physics is wrong. If you can't show power with actual games, you don't have power.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
True!
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Trying to stop console warriors shit by saying that anyone who doesn't think Series X HW has an advantage is naive?
Wut?
It’s not keeping it close; it’s surpassing the XsX in every matchup.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Some folks are really living in la la land still.
Not only did the XSX lost the performance delta advantage it was marketed to have over the PS5 but also... it's the PS5 that has shown a performance delta advantage early-on on the majority of match ups. You first gotta worry about closing the gap with the PS5 and matching it on performance with the "tools™" narrative..... and only then worry about "surpassing" it to match the misleading marketing with that "unlocked potential™". Meanwhile assuming the PS5 is already maxed out when it's got even more custom hardware under the hood than the XSX (which we all know is dishonest bullshit). God have mercy when second wave PlayStation exclusives hit.
No one's gonna force you to admit you're wrong (they can't) but they'll do the next best thing - just clown you to death for being obtuse idiots.
Not only did the XSX lost the performance delta advantage it was marketed to have over the PS5 but also... it's the PS5 that has shown a performance delta advantage early-on on the majority of match ups. You first gotta worry about closing the gap with the PS5 and matching it on performance with the "tools™" narrative..... and only then worry about "surpassing" it to match the misleading marketing with that "unlocked potential™". Meanwhile assuming the PS5 is already maxed out when it's got even more custom hardware under the hood than the XSX (which we all know is dishonest bullshit). God have mercy when second wave PlayStation exclusives hit.
No one's gonna force you to admit you're wrong (they can't) but they'll do the next best thing - just clown you to death for being obtuse idiots.
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geordiemp
Member
And what do you know about physics exactly ?
And how does that relate to semiconductor APU design and compute efficiency ?
Go on, give me a laugh, you and Riky tell me about semiconductor physics, its a saturday.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Good points! Also, I'd say even the first proper wave of true PS5 exclusives will blow everything out of the water.
As of now, we just have seen Demon's Souls (AAA PS5 exclusive), and that's a game that sends so much raw data (4 Gb/s) that the Series consoles couldn't even run without lowering the graphical fidelity, because of its raw I/O limit of 2.4 Gb/s.
The "tools" narrative won't hold for long. It's a made-up excuse that was made only after XSX failed to outperform PS5, as some naive fans (who think 12 > 10, and that's it) thought it would by a big margin, each and every time.
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geordiemp
Member
Imagine the other AMD chips such as 5700Xt, 6800Xt and the like working great and better than expected on DX12u using same tools on PCs with 3rd party engines on so many games.
Just imagine that, the only outlier is XSX, strong logic. If all AMD DX12u parts were also non performant with the new tools, your logic would stand up.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Yeah, it's the same GDK and DX12u. And XSX doesn't even have an excuse of customizations because it is the "ONLY FULL RDNA2 CONSOLE" (had to put it in caps), so the features of the XSX architecture and the PC GPUs are literally the same.
Then why is the performance "lower" only on the Xbox consoles?
Anyone bringing up the tools narrative should first address these questions.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Why would they want to address the obvious? It's all marketing bull. Where is Infinite Cache? Full RDNA2 my ass.
Same with "world's most powerful console" marketing changing to "our most powerful Xbox" as soon as they caught wind of internal benchs between the two by devs (to cover their asses on a potential lawsuit).
Typical MS.
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MasterCornholio
Member
Pretty much nailed it. What matters in the end is what we get not what we could get in optimal conditions.
Riky
$MSFT
Wrong.
The AMD press release didn't say the XSX was full RDNA2, it said it had full hardware support for the RDNA2 features mentioned at the unveiling, VRS and Mesh Shaders etc. We've only seen this used in Gears so far and the results on the new DLC are pretty spectacular.
longdi
Banned
Stop, just stop all this shenanigans, all this fud and green eyes envy.
Phil decreed that the next Xbox must be the most powerful console, not beaten in price and performance. You don't think all the scientists and engineers at MSFT won't know how to pick the best on offer by AMD for 7nm and 2020 launch at $499?
It not magic or hope, just pure science and hard facts. Just because Series X api and tools are not where they should be, we cannot just wipe the slate and keep throwing more shades
Phil decreed that the next Xbox must be the most powerful console, not beaten in price and performance. You don't think all the scientists and engineers at MSFT won't know how to pick the best on offer by AMD for 7nm and 2020 launch at $499?
It not magic or hope, just pure science and hard facts. Just because Series X api and tools are not where they should be, we cannot just wipe the slate and keep throwing more shades
Knitted Knight
Banned
Stop, just stop all this shenanigans, all this fud and green eyes envy.
Phil decreed that the next Xbox must be the most powerful console, not beaten in price and performance. You don't think all the scientists and engineers at MSFT won't know how to pick the best on offer by AMD for 7nm and 2020 launch at $499?
It not magic or hope, just pure science and hard facts. Just because Series X api and tools are not where they should be, we cannot just wipe the slate and keep throwing more shades
It's done for. No need to fight it. Embrace it. PS5 Performance King. Phil will understand, he just wants you to love Gamepass after all. That's all you need to do to be good in his eyes.
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Same thing. And the question remains: if the games aren't using those technologies on XSX, they aren't using them on PS5 or PC either. Why are the Series consoles the only one to lag behind and perform poorly?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Stop, just stop all this shenanigans, all this fud and green eyes envy.
Phil decreed that the next Xbox must be the most powerful console, not beaten in price and performance. You don't think all the scientists and engineers at MSFT won't know how to pick the best on offer by AMD for 7nm and 2020 launch at $499?
It not magic or hope, just pure science and hard facts. Just because Series X api and tools are not where they should be, we cannot just wipe the slate and keep throwing more shades
And PS5 engineers started with an aim to make the worse performing console? It's an awful argument.
Regarding API and Tools, again, the same API (GDK) is being used for PC games. Why aren't games having problems on PC, as they do on XSX with the same tools and GDK?
Gudji
Member
Phil says a lot of things that usually don't come to fruition, for instance and picking up on your line... he was beaten in price since you can get a PS5 100 euros/dollars cheaper than XSX - and before you try to pull the XSS card argument, that was said long before the announcement of said console.
It not magic or hope, just pure science and hard facts. Just because Series X api and tools are not where they should be, we cannot just wipe the slate and keep throwing more shades
Since you like pure science and hard facts let me give you one fact: we had devs saying the tools and APIs at LAUNCH were never better for MS consoles and despite some stuff coming in hot, that's also true for PS5 APIs. One of the devs that said that is here on GAF.
Can we please stop thinking that only xbox consoles APIs and tools will improve? And that only XSX has not utilized it's full power yet? Thank you.
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Leyasu
Banned
Tools excuse is bullshit. Everyone knows it.
Games are coming in hot for the series consoles. Late access to dev kits more than likely the cause. A few rushed to launch cross gen games in a pandemic is nothing to sweat about. The clues are there to the problem. Capcom saying that rt might not make launch for DMC, dirt 5 lol and Phil himself saying that they were late to production because of a missing part/tech from AMD.
Shmunter
Member
Has the Dirt update upgraded the XsX gfx to match PS5 in the end? - haven’t heard anything.
MasterCornholio
Member
I heard they just released a patch. No idea what it does though.
I mean, maybe they are? Of all the games using the GDK I haven’t seen performance that’s particularly impressive out of GPUs that are pushing THIRTY fucking teraflops.
It stands to reason that GDK games on PC could be having performance issues as well but we just don’t know because they’re spread across all GPUs but they have the horsepower to brute force through it.
Creating a unified API across PC and Console during WFH and covid sounds like a total nightmare. At my enterprise, we’ve seen our roadmaps for anything remotely ambitious extend double or triple where we had them at during planning this time last year.
assurdum
Banned
First hearing Cerny the 36 CUs performance are comparable to 52 CUs on PS4 and secondly CUs performance are around the 40% of the GPU performance, to be worried so much about that 40% seems a bit a stretch to me. More important ps5 gpu is designed to push the more possible by such CUs numbers; in theory such approach should guarantee proper perfomance just because they are the baseline of the GPU design. The fact pc has higher CUs number in the high specs GPU, it's another story, pc and console are cousin not twins, different priorities etc etc furthermore doesn't means ps5 can't coexist with that, especially considered budget GPU in the horizon are very similar to the ps5 in the CUs counts.
Another important point: could be even less exciting to discover how useless are 52 CUs sit in the hardware for nothing, if the RAM/bandwidth setup, the array configuration and the lack of infinity cache are the key factor to squeeze out more from them (series X). But sure if we think PR campaign just about higher number it's enough, nothing to say here.
I thought the first wave of multiplat has already sadly showed how such hardware philosophy is far from ideal.
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Riky
$MSFT
It's not the "same thing" at all, unlike what some clowns are saying when comparing the XSX to the top RDNA2 cards and then pretending to be all shocked XSX doesn't measure up to them.
The base 6800 cost £600, it has 60 compute units, 96 rops and a 128mb infinity cache L3 cache. The XSX doesn't have infinity cache at all, so it's hardware wise not full RDNA2.
Dirt 5 does use the RDNA2 features on PC, it doesn't on XSX as yet. PS5 doesn't contain that hardware it has its own solutions and I don't know what it is or isn't using but that's beside the point.
I don't know why you say the consoles are performing " poorly" when the differences are very small and vary across titles favouring one machine or the other in different situations. No one game has a constant advantage throughout a total run of play.
Shelookdlvl18
Banned
Good God man. Don't talk about people living in la la land, and then immediately boast about how the SX has to match the PS5 before it worries about surpassing it.
La la land is pretending that there is some steep hill that the SX must climb first. La la land is pretending there is a considerable "performance delta" between the two. In reality though, in most games so far, the difference difference between the two usually boils down to a couple of frames.
Those who spend their time over several places vs those who literally just live here on GAF know what reality is. It's only here that that the PS5 is blowing the SX away in comparisons.
Put that pipe down my dude. You're losing your grip.
Leyasu
Banned
I don't know. I haven't bought dirt. Looking at what DF tested though, that game should have been delayed. That wasn't ready for it's launch date.
MasterCornholio
Member
There will probably be another thread created on those games.
Shelookdlvl18
Banned
Exactly what I was just saying. Only here is it believed that the PS5 is outperforming the SX on a massive level. You can scroll through post after post here of people going on and on about how Cyberpunk performed superior on the PS5, after the DF comparison came out. When in reality, that's not what they stated in the comparison at all. The PS5 seemed to hold framerate better, but they couldn't really get like for like comparisons because many of the frame drops weren't repeatable, and the SX enjoyed significantly more people and traffic going on in the game world vs PS5. They even went so far as to clearly say that excluding a pc... That the series x/s were the best consoles to play the game on.
If you just went by the narrative carried around here, you'd have thought that the PS5 was the far better option.
Shelookdlvl18
Banned
Only if the PS5 outperforms the SX, or can be construed as such.
History has clearly shown that when PS compares favorably to xbox.... Comparison threads of any sort easily go a thousand pages. When the Xbox compares favorably to PS... Well then, it's really about the games and threads roll off the front page like water.