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[Shikamaru Ninja]

It would be interesting if Nintendo partnered with Monolith's core development studio to work on a massive, open-world Zelda.

Monolith Soft played a major part in the development of Skyward Sword, but that's just the support studio. I'm talking about the part of Monolith Soft that developed Xenobade and is now working on X.

Well i think it is important to note that Nintendo uses Monolith Soft as a production team on several games. Super Smash Bros Brawl, Zelda Skyward, Animal Crossing: New Leaf, ex. However, being a production team doesn't exactly equate to them being a co-developer or driving force. After all, they aren't designing levels or dungeons, instead they are modeling pots and pans, animating non-playable characters, designing textures. These are all common things outsourced to small agencies. Heck, Monolith themselves did it big time on XenoBlade Chronicles.Difference here is Nintendo is being smart about balancing their expense sheets with their external first-party developers.

I am sad that Nintendo only apparently has 4-5 producers it trusts to make games to support two consoles. And they all seem to be chained to making new iterations of existing series. Little surprise they have neverending droughts.

They have about 20 producers.

 

[balohna]

I find this view point staggering as I cannot find a single redeeming quality about it. It remains the only entry I have not completed. I saw no creativity whatsoever. The characters were bland, no sense of population...hell the game begins with an important ceremony around a goddess and then only three people attend...

environments are cliche: Green, fire, water...been there done that. And despite this limitation, they have you reenter these environments repeatedly!

Fetch quests: how do they help?

There are some very strong and valid reasons why people such as myself despise it.

No mention of the mechanics, puzzles or action at all? I guess the world itself is the most important to you? That may be why.

I guess you didn't get to the

Spoiler

ship

or

Spoiler

ancient technology.

Tropes rarely/never done in a Zelda game.

 

[Green Mamba]

Man, is everyone still hung up on that?

It's not like Sticker Star suddenly stopped being what Sticker Star is.

 

[hatchx]

I find this view point staggering as I cannot find a single redeeming quality about it. It remains the only entry I have not completed. I saw no creativity whatsoever. The characters were bland, no sense of population...hell the game begins with an important ceremony around a goddess and then only three people attend...

environments are cliche: Green, fire, water...been there done that. And despite this limitation, they have you reenter these environments repeatedly!

Fetch quests: how do they help?

There are some very strong and valid reasons why people such as myself despise it.

As my least favourite 3D Zelda I mostly agree, but I found it has the best motion controls out there, some fun combat, and the latter half had some fantastic dungeons if you are able to wade through the padding.

The dungeon with the whip, the 4th dungeon I think, is one of the series highlights for me.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Mixed feelings on this. However you feel about the guy now, that statement's just :'(

I miss Miyamoto-era games like OOT and ALTTP and such, but if he thinks attempts like Skyward Sword reached the bar those games set, then I guess it's time for him to go. That had to have the most sluggish, padded overworld I have ever experienced in a game (who thinks nearly identical fire temples and tadtones are a good idea?!?)

 

[ALM5252]

I thought Yoshiaki Koizumi was the real innovator or whatever for Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and Super Mario Galaxy?

It says he made the Z-Targeting system, the 3-Day System, and wrote the charming and sad story to Super Mario Galaxy against Miyamoto's stance on not wanting one. (at least that's what I heard, and I believe it)

It seems after Super Mario Galaxy he just became a Producer. I want him to come back and do innovative stuff like he did before. Maybe Miyamoto's holding him back.

I'll add that I loved Galaxy 1 compared to Galaxy 2. Galaxy 2 didn't have the same charm as the first one, and no story killed it for me.

 

[Dark Octave]

My theory is that the people who dislike Skyward Sword the most are the ones that want the series to return to the "swords n' sorcery" style of games like Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time.

More this and this

than this and this

More bad-ass, less lame-ass. Its not so hard to not put useless and off-putting cutesy crap in a series that's largely about saving a princess from a demonic pig wizard.

I agree. You put it so much better than I have been able to in the past. I understand the need to flesh out the world and make it full of life and characters, but I'm not sure if I want that from a Zelda game. I like the idea of Link being alone on a little more seriously toned (non-westernized), straight forward, simple minded quest to get the Triforce pieces and confront Gannon.

I don't need to hunt bugs and collect praise or have a cute and wacky cast of characters to interesct with and to fetch quests for. Not that I mind any of that though.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I've been out of the loop on Pikmin 3 and WiiU in general, could you explain what exactly went sour with it?

Nothing, he's saying Pikmin 3 is proof that Miyamoto's still got it.

 

[Redford]

Personally all I want going forward is a slight bit more respect for the intelligence of the player, bunch of areas there they could improve. Who directs it is like picking between your favorite desserts after the above is taken care of.

I don't see anything that's clearly wrong with having a more challenging narrative for the player, other than armchair marketers arguing about younger demographics and crap, like that should really matter for something with established widespread appeal and as well-known as Zelda.

Nothing, he's saying Pikmin 3 is proof that Miyamoto's still got it.

Ack, misread it. Thanks.

 

[Pociask]

They have about 20 producers.

But Miyamoto can only name four off the top of his head that he does not oversee to make sure they retain that Nintendo quality?

Poor Sakurai, not even mentioned in the same breath as "Rehash Animal Crossing Guy" or "Another Mario Kart Guy."

 

[Cess007]

and wrote the charming and sad story to Super Mario Galaxy against Miyamoto's stance on not wanting one.

Wait, wait, wait. Miyamoto didn't want the Rosalina story in SMG? WHY? Is friggin awesome and touching and for me, it was one of the highlights of that game!

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

It's funny that half of your examples for the older ones are unofficial artworks from the NES game. Those were not used during development.
And there's a reason why the Tingle game is a spinoff.
Pretty much just a random collection of pics that don't mean anything.

Thsi is all a bunch of nonsense. Random hand picked screenshots and artwork to suit a flimsy argument

I think my point went right over your heads.

Yup. 2D Zelda also has goombas and riding in a kangaroo's pouch.

It was almost tongue in cheek, giving a little wink to the player, breaking the forth wall kind of thing.

The "rules" are defined by the game's creators not you

You don't think the end user's expectations have an important role in the equation? If they make a new Star Trek the next generation movie and Jean luc picard turns out to be a wizard, or the Hobbits in the next Hobbit movie get abducted by aliens don't you think that would mess with the viewers expectations of what these "worlds" are about?

 

[equippedwithtowel]

I preferred her cuteness in Skyward Sword D:

The series not the character.

Zelda in SS was fine.

But Makar > all

 

[Azure Phoenix]

This may sound too harsh but I think Nintendo entirely is not in need of Miyamoto anymore. I also think Zelda may not need Aonuma either. In fact I am quite sure that what Zelda needs is not having Aonuma.

Pretty much. At times I feel like Nintendo have all their best staff assigned to completely the wrong places, they are wasting so much talent. Why is Koizumi lumbered with the Mario series? What the hell is Tezuka doing? Why the hell is Mr. Bland Tradition (Aonuma) still in charge of a series which has such a large creative scope? Why does Miyamoto still have his finger in all of the pies when his input is becoming gradually more poisonous?

It just baffles me completely as to why Koizumi is not given more free reign, his resume is formidable and I'd dare to say he's the best talent that Nintendo currently have.

 

[Zoramon089]

They are developing a thematic presentation for others, not themselves. If it clashes for the audience, their license isn't an excuse.

It doesn't clash with the audience in general, it clashes with YOUR view on how the series should be. You think fantasy should be restricted to a certain theme or artstyle and that a series has to be restricted to the presentation style of its first iteration, both of which aren't required

 

[Taco_Human]

Paving the way for retirement.

No

 

[Freezie KO]

Pikmin 3 shows the man still has his game design chops. I just wish his producer role was more about looking at games from a mechanical overview ("This isn't fun and here's why") rather than as an over-arching company-wide creative overseer. Nintendo needs new creative blood, and they need to allow other devs with fresh ideas to spread their wings.

 

[Alebrije]

How old is miyamoto? He can not do games forever,

 

[storafötter]

It was a good game. However, it was bogged down with a lot of "busy work" quests that artificially padded the play time. Would've been better served with actual substantial dungeons.

The dungeons that it did have, however, were fantastic. The overworld also was "lazy" per se, but I understand their intent.

Overall, I would play again. The Wii Motion Plus actually made it a joy to play, and I hate motion controls.

Yeah it pretty much sums up my experience with the game. However I would not play it again due to the slow start and stupid fetch quests.
Weakest 3D console Zelda for me since I have not played Twilight Princess.

I think it is funny that Miyamoto has confidence in Aonuma now. I bet if he sees something wrong with the next Zelda he will intervene as usual.

 

[Tadale]

I love Skyward Sword and Twilight Princes, but 3D zelda was at is peak creativity with Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. I know Aonuma directed those, but I wonder how much influence Miyamoto had.

 

[ALM5252]

Wait, wait, wait. Miyamoto didn't want the Rosalina story in SMG? WHY? Is friggin awesome and touching and for me, it was one of the highlights of that game!

I believe I read that somewhere on GAF a while back. I think it makes sense that he didn't since no story is present in Galaxy 2, and it's kind of a 'reboot' if you will. Plus Koizumi is just a Producer on Mario games since Galaxy 1.

EDIT: Found an interview.

Educated as a filmmaker, Koizumi wanted to get deeper stories into Nintendo’s games — even if Mario creator Shigeru Miyamoto didn’t.

"I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get [story elements] in without them noticing too much," Koizumi said of his early work. "These are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn’t nearly as fond of, and occasionally didn’t like."

More here.
Wired - Interview: Super Mario Galaxy Director On Sneaking Stories Past Miyamoto

 

[RurouniZel]

How old is miyamoto? He can not do games forever,

What do you think Nintendo is doing with all that Wii/DS cash? Iwata is building a Patriots-like AI super computer system with digital copies of Miyamoto, Yokoi, Yamauchi, and himself as the core AIs. Together they will control all of Nintendo until the end of time. #Kojima

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Wait, wait, wait. Miyamoto didn't want the Rosalina story in SMG? WHY? Is friggin awesome and touching and for me, it was one of the highlights of that game!

Miyamoto is against story-driven gaming.

 

[Ninjimbo]

Until Aonuma and company put out a less than stellar game, I'll continue to believe Aonuma being handed the reigns is the best thing that could have happened to the franchise.

 

[KingFire]

I am sad that Nintendo only apparently has 4-5 producers it trusts to make games to support two consoles. And they all seem to be chained to making new iterations of existing series. Little surprise they have neverending droughts.

Those producers must be freaking workaholic. I mean they are overseeing some of the best series that ever existed. The expectation of quality is so high is ridiculous. Imagine how stressful that job must be.

Add to that the WiiU's sub-par economic performance and you have a recipe for chronic depression.

 

[Redford]

It doesn't clash with the audience in general, it clashes with YOUR view on how the series should be. You think fantasy should be restricted to a certain theme or artstyle and that a series has to be restricted to the presentation style of its first iteration, both of which aren't required

I'm speaking generally (as in I don't give any more of a shit about the broad thematic changes in direction for Zelda than I do for other series) about your reasoning on deferring to artistic license 100% of the time as if they are doing it just for their own pleasure, which is just as silly as expecting an artist to conform to your tastes.

Poor design choices are made by poor designers, and some artists are better than others.

 

[Azure Phoenix]

I believe I read that somewhere on GAF a while back. I think it makes sense that he didn't since no story is present in Galaxy 2, and it's kind of a 'reboot' if you will. Plus Koizumi is just a Producer on Mario games since Galaxy 1.

Yeah, it was in an interview that I've long since lost the link to. Miyamoto seems to be completely allergic to plot in Mario games, he was not happy about the Rosalina stuff in Galaxy despite that optional, touching story being one of the reasons why the game was outstanding.

 

[EricDiesel]

No

The guy's over 60. He has to retire sometime. Not to mention he barely does anything but supervise at this point. He's not the creative force he once was.

And are we really having a "Zelda is too kiddie" argument in here? Jesus Christ... Zelda fans never change.

 

[mantidor]

So has this already turned into Aonuma vs Koizumi again?

What I'm more surprised about is people knowing the intricate details of their colaboration, is there an Iwata Asks on Majora's Mask? how people know with such precision how involved or not involved they were in specific parts of the game?

 

[JinjoUnchained]

More like Miyamoto doesn't need Aonuma. Zelda series needs a producer that can actually defeat an Octorock in Zelda 1

 

[Shaanyboi]

I liked Skyward Sword, though I'm not about to ignore its obvious flaws with pacing and handholding.

That said, if Miyamoto doesn't feel he has to be involved with Zelda anymore, that's his call.
Link Between Worlds will likely be the first indicator of how an Aonuma does almost entirely on his own.

 

[Cess007]

I believe I read that somewhere on GAF a while back. I think it makes sense that he didn't since no story is present in Galaxy 2, and it's kind of a 'reboot' if you will. Plus Koizumi is just a Producer on Mario games since Galaxy 1.

EDIT: Found an interview.



More here.
Wired - Interview: Super Mario Galaxy Director On Sneaking Stories Past Miyamoto

Miyamoto is against story-driven gaming.

Man, it would have been a shame if her would have been cut from the game. I know Miyamoto thinks first on gameplay, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little story now and then. I remember been blown away on how sad and deep turned out to be Rosaline story.

 

[Spieler Eins]

What I'm more surprised about is people knowing the intricate details of their colaboration, is there an Iwata Asks on Majora's Mask? how people know with such precision how involved or not involved they were in specific parts of the game?

People taking wikipedia for granted, which is of course never a good idea. Especially when it comes to details like this, which not many people would ever be able to confirm themselves.

 

[WonkyPanda]

I've been out of the loop on Pikmin 3 and WiiU in general, could you explain what exactly went sour with it?

I believe you misread. He has "far" from lost his touch, meaning that Pikmin 3 is absolutely incredible and one of the best games this year.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

Pikmin 3 had a dedicated director and producer, both not named Miyamoto, who took the lead roles on the last 3 Pikmin releases. I think they deserve the credit.

When people want to validate Miyamoto's job, it should be based on how the EAD Division has been growing and adapting to the newer cycles of development. Which definitely has room for improvement. The man is a Board of Director and GM. Process how much time he has even on the games "he spent a little more time on".

 

[nynt9]

Honestly if you think the hand-holding in Skyward Sword was bad I hope you never play Dream Team. It makes Skyward Sword look like Ghouls'N'Ghosts.

Oh, I did. I couldn't get too far into the game because of it.

 

[Ninjimbo]

Miyamoto is against story-driven gaming.

No he isn't. He just believes videogames should be primarily derived from mechanics. Story is something that can be added in later for context, but its not necessary especially for a character like Mario and the games made around him. Look to Ocarina of Time, a game helmed by Miyamoto, and tell me if the storytelling is coming from someone who is against story-driven action.

And lets get one thing straight about Koizumi and his insistence on adding more story to Mario. One of the games Koizumi directed was Mario Sunshine, and that game was straight up embarrassing when it came to telling a story. You had to sit through cutscenes of Mario listening to a talking water pack that ended up displaying more character than the game's star protagonist. It was awful.

 

[Aquamarine]

Pikmin 3 had a dedicated director and producer, both not named Miyamoto, who took the lead roles on the last 3 Pikmin releases. I think they deserve the credit.

When people want to validate Miyamoto's job, it should be based on how the EAD Division has been growing and adapting to the newer cycles of development. Which definitely has room for improvement. The man is a Board of Director and GM. Process how much time he has even on the games "he spent a little more time on".

There were two directors for Pikmin 3:
1) Shigefumi Hino, who has been a co-director on every Pikmin game
2) Yuji Kando, who was a core game systems programmer on Pikmin 1 and 2

Hino was the driving force of Pikmin 3...Kando was more in charge of the programming, but both worked together to make Pikmin 3 great.

Miyamoto was involved in the project from the beginning, but you're absolutely right...he's a general supervisor that has Board and GM duties, and the creations that come out of Nintendo should really be attributed to the people who worked the hardest on them.

But Miyamoto can only name four off the top of his head that he does not oversee to make sure they retain that Nintendo quality?

Poor Sakurai, not even mentioned in the same breath as "Rehash Animal Crossing Guy" or "Another Mario Kart Guy."

I bet the people Miyamoto mentioned as his "star apprentices" are the people that he has the closest relationships to.

It's interesting that he doesn't mention any of Nintendo's current dominant game directors...you know...the creative driving force for the titles.

All of those people he mentioned are fantastic producers, and in the past they were great video game directors, but they are a step removed from the day-to-day production of the titles (some producers are more involved than others, of course).

Here are two very talented director powerhouses within the Nintendo umbrella that are worth mentioning:

Masahiro Sakurai:
Kirby's Dream Land (1992) — Director, Game Designer
Kirby's Adventure (1993) — Director, Game Designer
Kirby Super Star (1996) — Director
Super Smash Bros. (1999) — Director
Super Smash Bros. Melee (2001) — Director
Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (2002) — Director
Kirby Air Ride (2003) — Director
Meteos (2005) — Game Designer
Kouchuu Ouja: MushiKing -- Greatest Champion e no Michi (2005) — Game Designer
Super Smash Bros. Brawl (2008) — Director, Scenario Writer, Voice Actor
Kid Icarus: Uprising (2012) — Director, Scenario Writer
Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U (2014) — Director

Junichi Masuda:
Pokemon Red / Blue / Yellow (1996-1998) — Programmer, Music + Sound Effects Composer
Pokemon Gold / Silver / Crystal (1999-2001) — Assistant Director, Game Designer, Music + Sound Effects Composer
Pokemon Ruby / Sapphire (2002) — Director, Game Designer, Scenario Writer, Music Composer
Pokemon FireRed / LeafGreen (2004) — Director, Game Designer, Music Composer
Pokemon Emerald (2004) — Supervising Director, Game Designer, Scenario Writer, Music Composer
Pokemon Diamond / Pearl (2006) — Director, Music Composer
Pokemon Platinum (2008) — Producer, Music Composer
Pokemon HeartGold / SoulSilver (2009) — Producer, Music Composer
Pokemon Black / White (2010) — Director, Producer, Music Composer
Pokemon Black 2 / White 2 (2012) — Producer, Music Composer
Pokemon X / Y (2013) — Director, possibly Music Composer

 

[Spieler Eins]

And lets get one thing straight about Koizumi and his insistence on adding more story to Mario. One of the games Koizumi directed was Mario Sunshine, and that game was straight up embarrassing when it came to telling a story. You had to sit through cutscenes of Mario listening to a talking water pack that ended up displaying more character than the game's star protagonist. It was awful.

Indeed Sunshine failed. Galaxy however had the right amount of plot at the very beginning, to give the rest of the game an adventurous mood without too many distractions otherwise.
Generally though, I think it's more important to build a world that sets a grander scale/amtosphere while a more blatant narrative is scaled down. Mario 64 or Mario World have a much better atmosphere because of how the game is built up, while a NSMB entry might feature great level design, but simply lacks the idendity or ,,soul'' that defined the other games and made them truly special. It's admirable if you cut all the shit storytelling, but something else gotta take it's place. Equally, while a random parcours pack like 3DLand was pretty great on the 3DS, it's not something you should go for in a home console title that follows Galaxy...

 

[Violet_0]

eww, so many Skyward Sword-fans in this thread

 

[Coffee Dog]

eww, so many Skyward Sword-fans in this thread

I feel the same way about twilight princess fans

 

[nictron]

I thought skyward sword was one of the best? Almost all the reviews hailed it as one of the best Zelda if i remember correctly....was it not good?

Best part of Skyward Sword. For me anways.

The game held your hand too much, to the point where I never felt like I was exploring because there was always someone with me to tell me what something was. If I wanted the help I would buy the guidebook.

The tedious side quests were plentiful as well, back and forth back and forth.

 

[-Horizon-]

eww, so many Skyward Sword-fans in this thread

 

[Ninjimbo]

eww, so many Skyward Sword-fans in this thread

At least there aren't any NES Zelda fans.

 

[nictron]

But Miyamoto can only name four off the top of his head that he does not oversee to make sure they retain that Nintendo quality?

Poor Sakurai, not even mentioned in the same breath as "Rehash Animal Crossing Guy" or "Another Mario Kart Guy."

He seemed to only be naming producers who took over something he originated. Kirby and Pokemon were Miyamoto may have been involved in but they were never his babies.

 

[Darryl]

I am sad that Nintendo only apparently has 4-5 producers it trusts to make games to support two consoles. And they all seem to be chained to making new iterations of existing series. Little surprise they have neverending droughts.

i think this is talking more so about the games miyamoto was in control of and has since passed the torch on. i'm sure nintendo is far too big at this point for him to be overseeing their output. that would be too much work.

 

[thechristoph]

Miyamoto is against story-driven gaming.

I think people see Miyamoto as more than he really is. I know I'm certainly guilty of that. He said in an interview once that games are entertainment products, not artistic expression. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive, but the quote seemed to read as if he did.

 

[Freezie KO]

Pikmin 3 had a dedicated director and producer, both not named Miyamoto, who took the lead roles on the last 3 Pikmin releases. I think they deserve the credit.

When people want to validate Miyamoto's job, it should be based on how the EAD Division has been growing and adapting to the newer cycles of development. Which definitely has room for improvement. The man is a Board of Director and GM. Process how much time he has even on the games "he spent a little more time on".

I stand corrected on Pikmin 3 then. I was under the impression he had a much stronger creative role, especially given comments like the game being one of "his" best.

 

[BY2K]

Funny that the list of Directors Miyamoto trust is missing Sakamoto.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Takashi Tezuka was a beast back in the day. Just look at these credentials:

Super Mario Bros. (1985) — Assistant Director, Game Designer
Super Mario Bros. 2 (The Lost Levels) (1986) – Director, Game Designer
The Legend of Zelda (1986) — Director, Game Designer, and Writer
Super Mario Bros. 3 (1988) — Director, Game Designer
Super Mario World (1990) — Director
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (1991) — Director
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (1993) — Director
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (1995) — Director
Super Mario 64 (1996) — Assistant Director

I just wish he'd come back and direct more titles today, instead of staying perched as a "general producer."

Wow this guy has been apart of most of my favorite Nintendo games. We need more Tezuka!