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(ONM) Senran Kagura Burst is damaging the industry - here's how to stop it
- Thread starter studyguy
- Start date
akidnamededdy
Banned
I thought out of control budgets, outrageously expensive marketing campaigns, and the encroaching specter of mobile gaming were damaging the industry, but I guess I was wrong.
I haven't played too much of it yet but it's ok. Fairly simplistic 2D brawler so far.
I haven't played too much of it yet but it's ok. Fairly simplistic 2D brawler so far.
That's a bad example since Hawkeye didn't get a film either. In that instance it's because Black Widow isn't as popular as the four characters who got multiple movies.
Orniletter
Banned
I would guess one reason is fear of.....exactly what the ONM guy did.
Actually black widow doesn't get a movie because.. well she ain't that important. But guess who is rumored to get a movie
Apparently instead of generic sexy theif, they wanted.. a cool lady.
I am of a firm belief if women were represented better and more in actiony stuff, more women would watch it.
Toy isle syndrome. If you don't gender separate the toys, you would be surprised who gets into who.
It's a bad example cause the movies all suck >_>
AAA gaming has become more and more niche over the last 15 years, I don't see how you can argue against that. Pretty much only things that sell consistently at this point are power fantasies aimed at young men like CoD, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, and other military shooters. Nintendo have run into this problem in a major way - the casual market is just no longer interested in paying 60 bucks for a big game. Look at the top 10 sales of the last 5 years - it's the same games again and again while companies that have tried to do something different have gone bust again and again. Most of Sony's quirky, gender neutral first party games of the last year bombed as well, and that's with the might of Sony behind them.
I'm sure there are a lot of women who want to play AAA games, but I have seen no data supporting the claim that such an audience could support a AAA game marketed at them. If they could, I believe publishers would be trying to make money off them. We've all seen the money Twilight and The Hunger Games pulled in. If people think they can reach women, especially young women, they'll do everything in their power to do so. I think there's a belief that the female market wouldn't support a AAA game and I don't know how you go about disproving that.
As for saying 'that doesn't make the problem go away' - problems don't go away overnight. No one can fix an industry in a month. That's not how it works. As long as something is steadily improving then you're on the right path. If it starts backsliding, you make more noise. I think female representation in AAA games is improving as the quality of writing generally improves. That's the point I was making there.
Matt Attack
Member
There's a really fun game behind the boobs. I can definitely imagine why some people would be turned off by the game's aesthetics, but Senran Kagura has value from a gameplay perspective, to the point where I don't think it's damaging the industry at all. It's fine to criticize the aspects of the game you don't appreciate, but I do wish there was a little less hyperbole.
akidnamededdy
Banned
The last big superhero movies starring female characters off the top of my head were Catwoman and Elektra. That should tell you all you need to know about why we don't see those kinds of movies any more.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
No it's a great example. Precisely why aren't they as popular, they weren't popular in comic books they weren't that popular in films (if they were you'd have a wolverine-esk spin off).
There's 3 reasonable well known super franchise staring females that have transferred to films. Wonder woman, Cat woman and super girl.
As far as I know all 3 franchise are dead.
I'm not saying I agree with the correlation but he does have some evidence.
edit
h yeah Elektra.. there's probably a good reason why I forgot that one.Man, I wish the first things that came to mind when I thought -Japanese animation- were still Akira, Ninja Scroll and Robotech.
I feel pretty strongly about broadening the scope of experiences I get to have in video games but do we even have this discussion around something like Senran Kagura? It is literally titillation first, video game second. It's like a genre film, it's sole reason to exist is to provide those tropes, in this case, overtly sexual Ninja girls. It's only here to put as many breasts on screen at once.
Does softcore porn hurt the film industry? Maybe it comes down to a rating enforcement debate eventually. I don't know man, I sincerely think targeting any specific game for this sort of discussion just dilutes the message.
I feel pretty strongly about broadening the scope of experiences I get to have in video games but do we even have this discussion around something like Senran Kagura? It is literally titillation first, video game second. It's like a genre film, it's sole reason to exist is to provide those tropes, in this case, overtly sexual Ninja girls. It's only here to put as many breasts on screen at once.
Does softcore porn hurt the film industry? Maybe it comes down to a rating enforcement debate eventually. I don't know man, I sincerely think targeting any specific game for this sort of discussion just dilutes the message.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Games like this typically use the fanservice angle to push it and obscure the crummy game design, but Senran Kagura is a legit fun beat-em up. It's not amazing but it's better than it has any right being. The T&A is just icing on top.
The white knights get to feel vindicated and the repressed kids get advertised to.
"Yes! Please do not buy our PERVERTED game!" "Yes, the point of the game is to make the girls clothes fall off ! Very shameful! Digital only!"
Rather than say it's evidence, you've got to look and say what was the quality of those films and out of the two I've seen they were both awful, awful films. The comic book market is mainly aimed at boys/men and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Just like romance novels are mainly aimed at women. I don't feel persecuted that there's not a romance novel aimed at me and I'm pretty sure women don't feel that way about games either.
I'm generalising here but this issue of "but girls feel persecuted" I think in the vast scale of the world is complete madness and completely untrue.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
This, so much this. I'm getting kind of tired of people pretending that women are so insecure to be offended every time they see sexualized video game characters.
No it's a great example. Precisely why aren't they as popular, they weren't popular in comic books they weren't that popular in films (if they were you'd have a wolverine-esk spin off).
There's 3 reasonable well known super franchise staring females that have transferred to films. Wonder woman, Cat woman and super girl.
As far as I know all 3 franchise are dead.
I'm not saying I agree with the correlation but he does have some evidence.
edit
Please tell me about how popular Iron Man , thor, and captain america pre movies.
also rumor is they are trying to make this a thing
ThreePiMatt
Member
I believe Hawkeye and Black Widow are both "rumored" to get a movie. But even then, it's coming after fucking Phil Coulson got his own TV show.
And you're free to believe that but you have to remember that big budget games/movies carry a tremendous risk. Its perfectly understandable why a publisher is hesitant to commit $50-100 million because of a "firm belief." I'm more inclined to assume that the millions publishers spend on focus groups and marketing surveys probably gives them a better inclination of the potential markets than your "firm belief."
She just waiting be switched out, as soon as they get Captain marvel and She Hulk and possibly a scarlet witch? She gone.
From all those trippleA failures the game industry keeps having , maybe they would take some time to retread what their beliefs actually hard. And maybe, try to make a good and adverting t, rather than blaming the game faults on the gender and or race of its protagonists.
So what? If the game is not made to appeal to them as an audience, that's okay.
Oh no, it's "pervy". So what?
I happen to think that if there were no room in the industry for games that only some people like, that in itself would constitute damage to the industry.
Whether it's movies, books, games - art and entertainment in any medium, basically - people should be, and feel, free to make what they want. Just as people should be and feel free to enjoy what they enjoy.
Games and other forms of entertainment should not be forced to be acceptable by everyone in order to just exist. People not liking some things is normal. That's how things work.
These pleas to not watch it on youtube, and certainly don't buy it are just pathetic. And, as I said before, potentially damaging to the industry if people were able to actually take them seriously and believe this bullshit.
It's okay to be offended at things that other people enjoy. Equally, it's okay to enjoy that which offends some others. Speak your piece if you have to - say "this offends my sensibilities" or whatever. But then just leave it at that. This crusade to have everyone be offended at the same things is ridiculous.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I don't think these games should not exist, what should exist are more games that are inclusive to everyone and feature better female protagonists/characters.
To me, these smaller niche games are hardly 'damaging the industry' or whatever. More pressure should be put instead on AAA titles and publishers to become more inclusive, but nope, journalists won't go there. Most game of the year nominations featured male protagonists, glorified violence, and were clearly targeted at teen-young adult males.
If not enough women were watching movies the problem wouldn't be some small Japanese studios making adult films for males, it would be that Hollywood is not making anything for women.
To me, these smaller niche games are hardly 'damaging the industry' or whatever. More pressure should be put instead on AAA titles and publishers to become more inclusive, but nope, journalists won't go there. Most game of the year nominations featured male protagonists, glorified violence, and were clearly targeted at teen-young adult males.
If not enough women were watching movies the problem wouldn't be some small Japanese studios making adult films for males, it would be that Hollywood is not making anything for women.
ThreePiMatt
Member
I'm going to admit, its tough to decipher your spelling and grammar here. So I'm just going to conclude that you're vastly oversimplifying what goes into making and marketing a video game.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I remember reading that big pubs tend to create their own self-fulfilling prophecies to explain why they won't do more than creating games with your typical AAA white lead. I also remember reading something about how games were initially were marketed towards both males and females but eventually just focused on males because penis.
Seems like the reason why different games wouldn't sell lies squarely with big pubs being stupid.
Night Angel
Member
^^ Definitely needs citation.
It's nice to believe that women would go out in droves to buy AAA games if the games were targeted at them, but companies need PROOF that it will happen. Past attempts have failed (even if they failed for reasons other than the MC's gender), so companies largely abandoned the strategy. They target instead the audience they know they have.
It should be more inclusive. However, in business, profitability takes priority over nearly everything else.
I think you've come to a valid conclusion.
It's nice to believe that women would go out in droves to buy AAA games if the games were targeted at them, but companies need PROOF that it will happen. Past attempts have failed (even if they failed for reasons other than the MC's gender), so companies largely abandoned the strategy. They target instead the audience they know they have.
It should be more inclusive. However, in business, profitability takes priority over nearly everything else.
Mockingbird
Member
Can't believe ONM would post something like this.
If it's not a problem, why are anorexia and bulimia such huge problems and breast implants etc. such a growing thing among women, much more so than similar things with men.
The US only likes to hate on boobs when it's not 'murica boobs. Boobs are prevalent in everything, comic books, movies, tv shows, advertisements, sportsball. Many of the female superheroes in American comics by Marvel and DC are just as ridiculously proportioned as the characters in Senran Kagura. Boobs are everywhere in the cable only television shows that are getting critical acclaim (and its not as if the nudity in the shows contributes to the greatness of the shows) While Senran Kagura is damaging the industry, the above are rarely criticized.
SousedLouse
Member
The way that focus groups and marketing surveys are used by studios are pretty awful, though. They're usually used to cover the asses of the people in charge, or to justify wallowing in the same rut that they've been dealing with for years, and almost never used as a barometer of what works, what doesn't, and what could work but hasn't been done yet. And it applies to all sorts of industries - toys, music, novels, electronics, energy, etc. These business owners are taking as much of a risk when they invest in new things that are exactly the same as what worked for them before as they would be if they tried something new, and more often than not, they only do so because they don't know how to ply anything else.
And while it works in the short term, it doesn't pan out in the long term. One only has to look at movies and video games, some of the most stick-in-the-mud industries at the moment, to see proof of that. Both of them tend to ride a popular trend to the breaking point, with plenty of 'me too' studios bucking under and falling behind in the process, and once the trend is dead they move onto the next. It's pretty incompetent, in my opinion, and while I understand why they do it, I don't think their fears justify it.
I really doubt it's because of anime girls in video games they've likely never even heard of.
Are you sure? I'm pretty sure most of the 40-50 year old women I see walking the streets in Orange County with gigantic DDDDD implants got the idea from Senran Kagura. I think the makers of Senran Kagura actually sponsor all of the Housewives of ______ shows.
It's not just that, but if you're basing your body image off of what you see in Senran Kagura then you are categorically insane.
Intheflorsh
Banned
Insulting to your intelligence? Definitely.
Damaging the industry? Probably not.
Damaging the industry? Probably not.
Karsticles
Member
Hasn't the number of female gamers gone up over time? Maybe women sometimes even enjoy these games. I know my wife and sister do. My sister plays all the Harvest Moon and Rune Factory games for waifu collecting, and my wife is excited about Conception 2 after she saw pictures of the girls. It is weird that people try to blame industry treatment of women for women not playing games when gaming has become less male dominated over time. You can't blame Senran Kagura for early computer gaming being a male-dominated hobby.
ThreePiMatt
Member
The idea that the AAA market is unsustainable and that its a bubble waiting to pop is not far-fetched and can certainly be a problem in the future. But is expanding the market the only solution? Can the market be expanded infinitely to combat this in the future? Is creating the vanilla ice cream of video games, a game bland and simple enough that it appeals equally across genders, races, age groups the best solution? A game that couldn't possibly offend any demographic? Its a complex problem that doesn't have the simple solution that so many people believe in.
Acquiescence
Member
Ahhh, so ONM is where Matt Lees has ended up then I take it.
And the "girls didn't buy games, therefore we should continue to not market games for girls" circular logic is somehow better?
Is the idea of having games be for more than just a narrow male target audience really that wild and terrifying of a thought?
Dabookerman
Member
Making an article and saying "Don't buy this" is going to have the complete opposite effect.
When will these people learn??
The constant bashing of Dragon's Crown surely helped in it becoming as successful as it ended up being.
When will these people learn??
The constant bashing of Dragon's Crown surely helped in it becoming as successful as it ended up being.
I'm so sick of these journalists trying to tell me that the stuff I like is damaging and I should feel ashamed for liking it. Trying to use shame to advance an agenda (even if it's well intentioned) is bullshit and shouldn't be tolerated. I'm going to enjoy my niche boob ninja video game, and it's not going to harm a single damn person in the world.
Be careful with that, these illnesses are often caused by other psychological problems. Especially anorexia which doesn't aim for a supermodel shape but something more like a skeleton.
Yes, hurting the body image impacts the sense of self worth and such, making people feel worse (though I believe depression is not that easy to trigger, the proper pathological kind at least). We definitely should reduce the prevalence of perfect bodies in games but I don't think Senran Kagura is really the place to start with that, that's like complaining about the bust size on sex dolls.
Honestly, I sometimes find it hard to even identify anime characters as the same species as real people. It's like homo sapiens vs homo animu.
The Smoking Bun
Banned
Senran Kagura is no more damaging than the rampant sex and objectified portrayal of women in Wolf of Wall Street which admittedly is based on the book and opinions of the real life Jordan Belfort.
What's damaging is that there is not much representation on the other end of the spectrum, we need more Last Of Us, more Remember Me (with better game-play) and more Tomb Raider (with less Ludo-whatchamacallit lol!) type games. We need some rock dumb, meat head and bald female marines to help their male counterparts in combat
What's damaging is that there is not much representation on the other end of the spectrum, we need more Last Of Us, more Remember Me (with better game-play) and more Tomb Raider (with less Ludo-whatchamacallit lol!) type games. We need some rock dumb, meat head and bald female marines to help their male counterparts in combat
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
I wonder if this will increase sales like it did for Dragon's Crown.
ROFL
Acquiescence
Member
Yup. So many people don't learn shit from the likes of The Last Temptation of Christ, The Passion of the Christ, or this episode of Father Ted...
The more you protest something, the more free publicity and exposure you've giving it. Dragon's Crown ended up being Vanillaware's most profitable game didn't it?
If these games were actually flooding the industry, I would absolutely raise an eyebrow. In my opinion, these games are not anywhere near flooding the industry. It's no different than pulp-fiction or slasher films. It's a subset crafted for an audience that enjoys it, for whichever reason fits their taste.
The art tends to be novel, and is often well executed. They tend to have a sort of self-deprecating humor alongside the fan-service. I understand why that's appealing. I think something would be lost if games like (I'll just throw this out there) Dragon's Crown didn't exist, even for those who criticize that genre of gender depictions. I'll often criticize that genre of gender depictions, but that doesn't make a wider call for a boycott something I'd get behind. I think this is misguided criticism.
The art tends to be novel, and is often well executed. They tend to have a sort of self-deprecating humor alongside the fan-service. I understand why that's appealing. I think something would be lost if games like (I'll just throw this out there) Dragon's Crown didn't exist, even for those who criticize that genre of gender depictions. I'll often criticize that genre of gender depictions, but that doesn't make a wider call for a boycott something I'd get behind. I think this is misguided criticism.