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Orson Scott Card to Rowling: " You need to see the wizard of oz."

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Slayven

Member
http://www.linearpublishing.com/RhinoStory.html

Uncle Orson Reviews Everything
J.K. Rowling, Lexicon and Oz
by Orson Scott Card

April 24, 2008
Can you believe that J.K. Rowling is suing a small publisher because she claims their 10,000-copy edition of The Harry Potter Lexicon, a book about Rowling's hugely successful novel series, is just a "rearrangement" of her own material.

Rowling "feels like her words were stolen," said lawyer Dan Shallman.

Well, heck, I feel like the plot of my novel Ender's Game was stolen by J.K. Rowling.

A young kid growing up in an oppressive family situation suddenly learns that he is one of a special class of children with special abilities, who are to be educated in a remote training facility where student life is dominated by an intense game played by teams flying in midair, at which this kid turns out to be exceptionally talented and a natural leader. He trains other kids in unauthorized extra sessions, which enrages his enemies, who attack him with the intention of killing him; but he is protected by his loyal, brilliant friends and gains strength from the love of some of his family members. He is given special guidance by an older man of legendary accomplishments who previously kept the enemy at bay. He goes on to become the crucial figure in a struggle against an unseen enemy who threatens the whole world.


This paragraph lists only the most prominent similarities between Ender's Game and the Harry Potter series. My book was published in England many years before Rowling began writing about Harry Potter. Rowling was known to be reading widely in speculative fiction during the era after the publication of my book.

I can get on the stand and cry, too, Ms. Rowling, and talk about feeling "personally violated."

The difference between us is that I actually make enough money from Ender's Game to be content, without having to try to punish other people whose creativity might have been inspired by something I wrote.

Mine is not the only work that one can charge Rowling "borrowed" from. Check out this piece from a fan site, pointing out links between Harry Potter and other previous works: http://www.geocities.com/versetrue/rowling.htm. And don't forget the lawsuit by Nancy K. Stouffer, the author of a book entitled The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, whose hero was named "Larry Potter."

At that time, Rowling's lawyers called Stouffer's claim "frivolous."

It's true that we writers borrow words from each other ? but we're supposed to admit it and not pretend we're original when we're not. I took the word ansible from Ursula K. LeGuin, and have always said so. Rowling, however, denies everything.

If Steven Vander Ark, the author of Lexicon, had written fiction that he claimed was original, when it was actually a rearrangement of ideas taken from the Harry Potter books, then she'd have a case.

But Lexicon is intended only as a reference book for people who have already paid for their copies of Rowling's books. Even though the book is not scholarly, it certainly falls within the realm of scholarly comment.

Rowling's hypocrisy is so thick I can hardly breathe: Prior to the publication of each novel, there were books about them that were no more intrusive than Lexicon. I contributed to one of them, and there was no complaint about it from Rowling or her publishers because they knew perfectly well that these fan/scholar ancillary publications were great publicity and actually boosted sales.

But now the Harry Potter series is over, and Rowling claims that her "creative work" is being "decimated."

Of course, she doesn't claim that it's the Lexicon that is harming her "creative work" (who's she borrowing from this time?); it's the lawsuit itself! And since she chose to bring the suit, whose fault is it? If she had left Vander Ark alone to publish his little book and make his little bit of money, she wouldn't be distracted from her next novel.

But no, Rowling claims Vander Ark's book "constitutes wholesale theft of 17 years of my hard work."

Seventeen years? What a crock. Apparently she includes in that total the timeframe in which she was reading ? and borrowing from ? the work of other writers.

On the stand, though, Rowling's chief complaint seems to be that she would do a better job of annotating and encyclopedizing her own series.

So what?

Nothing prevents her from doing exactly that ? annotating and explaining her own novels. Do you think that if there were a Harry Potter Annotated by the Author, Vander Ark's book would interfere with her sales in any way?

This frivolous lawsuit puts at serious risk the entire tradition of commentary on fiction. Any student writing a paper about the Harry Potter books, any scholarly treatise about it, will certainly do everything she's complaining about.

Once you publish fiction, Ms. Rowling, anybody is free to write about it, to comment on it, and to quote liberally from it, as long as the source is cited.

Here's the irony: Vander Ark had the material for this book on his website for years, and Rowling is quoted as saying that when she needed to look up some 'fact" from her earlier books, she would sometimes "sneak into an Internet cafe while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter."

In other words, she already had made personal use of Vander Ark's work and found it valuable. Even if it has shortcomings, she found it useful.

That means that Vander Ark created something original and useful ? he added value to the product. If Rowling wants to claim that it interferes with her creativity now, she should have made that complaint back when she was using it ? and giving Vander Ark an award for his website back in 2004.

Now, of course, she regrets "bitterly" having given the award.

You know what I think is going on?

Rowling has nowhere to go and nothing to do now that the Harry Potter series is over. After all her literary borrowing, she shot her wad and she's flailing about trying to come up with something to do that means anything.


Moreover, she is desperate for literary respectability. Even though she made more money than the queen or Oprah Winfrey in some years, she had to see her books pushed off the bestseller lists and consigned to a special "children's book" list. Litterateurs sneer at her work as a kind of subliterature, not really worth discussing.

It makes her insane. The money wasn't enough. She wants to be treated with respect.

At the same time, she's also surrounded by people whose primary function is to suck up to her. No doubt some of them were saying to her, "It's wrong for these other people to be exploiting what you created to make money for themselves."

She let herself be talked into being outraged over a perfectly normal publishing activity, one that she had actually made use of herself during its web incarnation.

Now she is suing somebody who has devoted years to promoting her work and making no money from his efforts ? which actually helped her make some of her bazillions of dollars.

Talent does not excuse Rowling's ingratitude, her vanity, her greed, her bullying of the little guy, and her pathetic claims of emotional distress.

I fully expect that the outcome of this lawsuit will be:

1. Publication of Lexicon will go on without any problem or prejudice, because it clearly falls within the copyright law's provision for scholarly work, commentary and review.

2. Rowling will be forced to pay Steven Vander Ark's legal fees, since her suit was utterly without merit from the start.

3. People who hear about this suit will have a sour taste in their mouth about Rowling from now on. Her Cinderella story once charmed us. Her greedy evil-witch behavior now disgusts us. And her next book will be perceived as the work of that evil witch.

It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct ? but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.

What a pretentious, puffed-up coward. When I have a gay character in my fiction, I say so right in the book. I don’t wait until after it has had all its initial sales to mention it.

Rowling has now shown herself to lack a brain, a heart and courage. Clearly, she needs to visit Oz.
 

Teddman

Member
Damn, he put it down. Now that you mention it, there are a lot of similarities between Ender's Game and the Harry Potter series.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Oh wow, uncanny.

Now go finish the Shadow series.
 

ronito

Member
Mama Smurf said:
OSC's always been a cunt, so no surprises.
The guy writes one good book and thinks he can put down everyone. He might have a point here but still goes after it in a juvenile way. Maybe he posts on GAF. In which case let me say, "Hey Ender's Game was pretty good. Why don't you write it again....for the fifth time."
 

Askani

Member
That's a nice bit of writing OSC....

Now get the hell back to finishing "Ender in Exile" and "Shadows in Flight".
 

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
Cyan said:
I pretty much agree with Card (the lawsuit is ridiculous). Could've just bumped the old thread, though.

But I guess this gives us a fresh, clean new thread for QVT to come shit up.

BAWWWWWWW someone things i should read more books and i said no no no
 

Thai

Bane was better.
heh, if anything, Neil Gaiman should be the one ripping Rowling a new asshole (preferably in the face)

tim.jpg
 

TheWolf

Banned
wasn't she going to give all the money from her version of the lexicon to charity?

Rowling has nowhere to go and nothing to do now that the Harry Potter series is over.

except enjoy her billions.
 
Mama Smurf said:
OSC's always been a cunt, so no surprises.

He may be a cunt, (it's Orson Scott Card, so yeah) but he's got a good point about that frivolous lawsuit. I wonder how many people here only just read the highlights instead of the entire thing to put it into proper perspective?
 

tak

Member
The one hit wonder Orson Scott Card thinking he is hot stuff again? *Yawn*

Ender's game is the only good book he has ever written, and I've tried reading his other series. Ender's shadow was decent, but it was not Ender's game.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Splatt said:
I expect tears. Bitter tears from Rowling fans on which i shall feast.

I think OSC did enough crying for this entire thread. Seriously, the law suit is really stupid, but he's written one mediocre book. If anyone is going to be talking about this, it shouldn't be him.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct ? but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.

QFT. This is what has always annoyed me about Rowlings after series talks
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
ronito said:
The guy writes one good book and thinks he can put down everyone. He might have a point here but still goes after it in a juvenile way. Maybe he posts on GAF. In which case let me say, "Hey Ender's Game was pretty good. Why don't you write it again....for the fifth time."

He could at least get his facts right so he's less easy to pick apart.

Like this:

And don't forget the lawsuit by Nancy K. Stouffer, the author of a book entitled The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, whose hero was named "Larry Potter."

At that time, Rowling's lawyers called Stouffer's claim "frivolous."

The hero of that book is not called Larry Potter, for a start. "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" was never published in full and only appeared in portions in booklets published by Stouffer herself only in the US over a decade before JK Rowling visited the US...none of which were sold anywhere.

It was the proven in court that Stouffer provided fraudulent documents, lied in testimony, and retroactively had added the word muggle.

It was a ridiculous, fraudulent case designed to take advantage of someone's huge success. I mean, one of her arguments for the similarities was wooden doors. Wooden doors. There's a wooden door 5 feet away from me right now. Ridiculous.
 

plovie

Member
Holy cow. I haven't either authors; can anyone say if there's some chance that the similarities are just coincidental?
 
tak said:
The one hit wonder Orson Scott Card thinking he is hot stuff again? *Yawn*

Ender's game is the only good book he has ever written, and I've tried reading his other series. Ender's shadow was decent, but it was not Ender's game.

You need to read some of his older stuff. I'm not particularly fond of a lot of the stuff he's been coming out with in the past ten years or so, but he's written other good things besides Ender's Game. Read Treason, Songmaster, and Hart's Hope. Three of his earliest novels, but they're damn good.

Anyway, back on topic, the way Card puts it is pretty annoying (like normal) but I think he hit it on the head there.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
HomerSimpson-Man said:
He may be a cunt, (it's Orson Scott Card, so yeah) but he's got a good point about that frivolous lawsuit. I wonder how many people here only just read the highlights instead of the entire thing to put it into proper perspective?

Well whether or not it can or should legally be challenged, I think it's out of order to bring out a book that basically just rearranges information from another. People will buy that getting no new information. Perhaps it's legally ok, but it's just preying on unsuspecting customers imo.
 

Zeed

Banned
plovie said:
Holy cow. I haven't either authors; can anyone say if there's some chance that the similarities are just coincidental?
Of course they're coincidental. The point he's trying to make is that similarities between fiction stories is par for the course. He also makes a good point about Rowling never complaining about the other Potter-related books that contributed to her publicity.

Personally when I heard about Rowling's reaction I was pretty shocked. It seemed like a total overreaction and very unlike her. I can't give her any points for that.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Rorschach said:
Huh? How is he crying?

The whole thing is one big pout. I mean... really, he can't even get his facts straight and he links to a geocities site. Seriously?

Again, the lawsuit is stupid, but this whole thing is just OSC being bitter and whining. Nothing to see, move one.

Zeed said:
Of course they're coincidental. The point he's trying to make is that similarities between fiction stories is par for the course. He also makes a good point about Rowling never complaining about the other Potter-related books that contributed to her publicity.

Personally when I heard about Rowling's reaction I was pretty shocked. It seemed like a total overreaction and very unlike her. I can't give her any points for that.

That's what I don't really understand. She might write a encyclopedia, sure, but this was compiled and sold before she ever said any of that. I really don't understand why she's making such a big deal out of this.
 

John Dunbar

correct about everything
Rowling has now shown herself to lack a brain, a heart and courage. Clearly, she needs to visit Oz.

Considering how much money she made, I'd say she has plenty of brain. At least more so than fucking Orson Card.
 

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
plovie said:
Holy cow. I haven't either authors; can anyone say if there's some chance that the similarities are just coincidental?

You mean like the similarities it bears to any number of other works? It's certainly possible and happens all the time when the terms are reduced to being as basic as OSC goes. Clearly what actually happens in the books is different but the way he has selectively chosen aspects which could go either way is telling.
 
Orson Scott Card said:
Rowling has nowhere to go and nothing to do now that the Harry Potter series is over. After all her literary borrowing, she shot her wad and she's flailing about trying to come up with something to do that means anything.
Eh. I don't think this is necessarily true. Card had nowhere to go after finishing Ender's Game, and that didn't stop him. I'm sure Rowling has her own equivalent of Speaker For the Dead tucked away in that brain of hers.
 

tak

Member
Anerythristic said:
Awesome I can actually pick out the Potter fans in this thread with pinpoint accuracy.:lol
For the record, I think the Rowlins thing is silly, and Card is right on a few points. However, he has made a lot of similar rants in the past where he thinks he is above everyone else because of the one good book he wrote.

He is not as good writer as he thinks he is, and I cry at night that the Ender movie script is in his hands (last time I checked). The leaked script I read that he wrote makes me sad every time I think about it.
 

plovie

Member
Zeed said:
Of course they're coincidental. The point he's trying to make is that similarities between fiction stories is par for the course. He also makes a good point about Rowling never complaining about the other Potter-related books that contributed to her publicity.

Personally when I heard about Rowling's reaction I was pretty shocked. It seemed like a total overreaction and very unlike her. I can't give her any points for that.

He says that she stole Ender's Game's plot though, which is not coincidence.
 
The money made argument is weak. Once anything you do is accepted by children and geeks it makes billions, case closed. Pokemon, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc.
 

batbeg

Member
plovie said:
Holy cow. I haven't either authors; can anyone say if there's some chance that the similarities are just coincidental?

They're both based on age-old archetypes that have been present in stories for hundreds of years, so they're equally detrimental.

However, he raised some valid points about Rowling's hypocrisy and it's always nice to see literary battles, no matter the contenders credentials :lol
 

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
it makes it seem like he's never read a Harry Potter book. Many works of fiction can be made to look identical with carefully worded summaries. This seems like it would be beneath most authors (blasting a peer publicly), but he seems to not care what others think, especially after his homophobic rants years ago.
 
All creative media borrows from each other. The point of the lawsuit is that the encyclopedia uses many exact phrases from the Potter books. Whereas borrowing plotlines/having coincidences is completely different.

And if she did steal his plots, then obviously she did something right as her books have sold a crapload more than his.
 

SteveMeister

Hang out with Steve.
He's right about the similarities. He's right about this latest lawsuit; it's not doing her any favors and she's going to lose. He's got some of his facts wrong otherwise, and he's a bit too righteously indignant.

That said, OSC has always been one of my favorite authors. I've read everything he's written.
 
Anerythristic said:
The money made argument is weak. Once anything you do is accepted by children and geeks it makes billions, case closed. Pokemon, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc.
Yeah, I agree. If you use the money made argument, then you have to admit that Britney Spears is more talented than Feist or Imogen Heap
I will slap you if you say Amy Winehouse
, which just isn't true at all.
 

tak

Member
levious said:
it makes it seem like he's never read a Harry Potter book. Many works of fiction can be made to look identical with carefully worded summaries. This seems like it would be beneath most authors (blasting a peer publicly), but he seems to not care what others think, especially after his homophobic rants years ago.
Yeah, I agree with this. The majority of stories can be made to sound similar by cherry picking facts however, the fact is also that there is only a few basic story lines that all stories are spawned from.
 
massive pwnage from the mormon kook. aside from the stouffer gaffe, he's spot on. rowling's a total hack, and this lawsuit is her flailing about in empire management, insecure in the knowledge that her novels were more of a fad than a milepost in literature. burn!
 
Shalashaska said:
All creative media borrows from each other. The point of the lawsuit is that the encyclopedia uses many exact phrases from the Potter books. Whereas borrowing plotlines/having coincidences is completely different.

And if she did steal his plots, then obviously she did something right as her books have sold a crapload more than his.
She gave us this http://youtube.com/watch?v=5UfPij5ABdo fucking quidditch and fucking larpers
 
levious said:
it makes it seem like he's never read a Harry Potter book. Many works of fiction can be made to look identical with carefully worded summaries. This seems like it would be beneath most authors (blasting a peer publicly), but he seems to not care what others think, especially after his homophobic rants years ago.

No, the interesting thing about all of this is that he's stated multiple times in the past that he really likes the Harry Potter series. He's long been a proponent of them, especially in the literary community, so this is a big turnaround.

http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2007-07-29-extra.shtml

Orson Scott Card (about Deathly Hallows) said:
J.K. Rowling has created something that not only took the world by storm, but also deserves to last, to become a permanent classic of English literature, and not just as "children's fiction."

Finally, by the end, the story becomes not just emotional but spiritual, not just moral but philosophical. It is, in fact, worthy of study and serious thought. But I won't afflict you with that here. Instead, pop in and see what I've written in other places.

Meanwhile, though, you won't see this book on the New York Times Bestseller List.

In the stupidest maneuver in the history of literary criticism, the NYT succumbed to the whining of the poor, poor "adult" authors during the era when the first three or four spots on the list were all occupied by Rowling's Harry Potter series.

If you love the Harry Potter books, then you are part of the best of contemporary American literature, not because the books have sold so phenomenally well, but because they are so phenomenally good, and millions upon millions of people have recognized it.

We were all wiping tears from our eyes, and had been off and on for the last two hours. Tears of sorrow, tears of relief, tears of joy. It's an ending that feels both satisfying and bittersweet.


Yes, this is the same guy.
 

QVT

Fair-weather, with pride!
Green Shinobi said:
Yeah, I agree. If you use the money made argument, then you have to admit that Britney Spears is more talented than Feist or Imogen Heap
I will slap you if you say Amy Winehouse
, which just isn't true at all.

i like britney spears 1999 album(the one with lucky) more than i like feist who makes me want to kill myself. does that count?

money made isn't an argument for quality it's an argument for mass appeal, which is almost always the exact opposite of quality.
 
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