Support NeoGAF

[Haly]

I would be in support of a nerf just to stifle the complaints.

This thread, or any OW community, is not going to be fun if it's 50% "nerf bastion".

Wasn't fun in Hearthstone.

Won't be fun here.

 

[Lightbreak]

I would be in support of a nerf just to stifle the complaints.

This thread, or any OW community, is not going to be fun if it's 50% "nerf bastion".

Wasn't fun in Hearthstone.

Won't be fun here.

Is easier to come to a forum and complain about stuff than to learn how to play properly, as usual...

 

[GraveRobberX]

Hmmm.

The difference between "change" and "nerf"

Would be amazing if they "nerfed" him by altering his playstyle fundamentally...but still gave him a toolset similar to what he has now!

There are many ways to counter Bastion
If you hear the ripping of a constant barrage of bullets from an area, guess what? Now you know where the Bastion is

So many players brute force themselves to beat Bastion and they fall
Smart players try to take advantage and get the better of him

I've seen so many Bastions get wrekt by a Genji with deflect
But most Genji players like to scale up walls and think sniping from a far they have the advantage
Some players just play the class wrong, they have to learn on the job, but most don't

I mean most Hanzos are used just so the Ultimate can be pulled of cause its so cool and goes through the whole map

Every character needs to be nerfed cause at any time you can die by them

 

[Xeteh]

Okay so they nerf Bastion which would make him effectively useless. Its not like the whining will just vanish, they'll just move on to something else.

 

[InfiniteNine]

I would be in support of a nerf just to stifle the complaints.

This thread, or any OW community, is not going to be fun if it's 50% "nerf bastion".

Wasn't fun in Hearthstone.

Won't be fun here.

Can't we just ban whiners?

 

[MyNameIsRye]

I'd like to see a draft style competitive mode. Any chance of that?

 

[GraveRobberX]

Okay so they nerf Bastion which would make him effectively useless. Its not like the whining will just vanish, they'll just move on to something else.

Next up Mei, too much OP

Then OMG nerf D.Va and her Ultimate
Then we keep going down the line nerfing every char until all are nerfed then Bastion is OP again...

 

[pigeon]

This is what I've been trying to say. Bastion goes from an incredible pubstomper to bottom tier as players get more experienced with how systems are supposed to work; to me, that says that either straight up buffing or outright nerfing him would be a mistake, since the buff would exacerbate the former problem, and the nerf, the latter.

Good analysis, I agree.

What Bastion theoretically needs is a power shift (like, from turret to walking mode) or something so that he's not so dominant with low-skill players but not worse for high-skill ones.

It's also worth noting that hey, Overwatch is buy to play. Blizzard could just be like, fuck you, you already paid.

 

[KraytarJ]

I'd like to see a draft style competitive mode. Any chance of that?

You mean like you make a draft and then stay as those heroes for the duration of the game? I can't see that being pushed considering how important hero switching is to the game, and I don't think Blizzard would want to downplay that at any level.

 

[maouvin]

The only answer is to buff McCree.

 

[GraveRobberX]

The only answer is to buff McCree.

High Noon every 10 seconds!

 

[HariKari]

Would be amazing if they "nerfed" him by altering his playstyle fundamentally...but still gave him a toolset similar to what he has now!

I wouldn't mind seeing him turn into what is essentially heavy weapons guy. Get rid of the current sentry mode, and instead allow him to use the minigun in normal mode, but making him stationary or heavily nerfing his movement speed. His effective hitbox would actually be larger, but if you made it so he could spin down the minigun and move faster than the current transformation takes, it'd give him a little more reason to move around.

His current playstyle doesn't lend itself to being dynamic or nearly as high skill as other characters. Maybe that's the point, but they could take him in a couple interesting directions.

 

[MyNameIsRye]

You mean like you make a draft and then stay as those heroes for the duration of the game? I can't see that being pushed considering how important hero switching is to the game, and I don't think Blizzard would want to downplay that at any level.

Yes. It would really emphasize the whole counter picking and making sure you have a balanced team.

 

[Zackat]

That's really bullshit, considering you could get those skins during the beta.

I don't buy that they will leave them as Origins exclusive. That is too many art assets left on the vine to not sell them at a later date. I'd be shocked if a year from now you couldn't get those skins from a box or whatever they end up doing.

 

[GraveRobberX]

I'd like to see a draft style competitive mode. Any chance of that?

They have that Heroes mode where you respawn as a different char after every death
Sometimes there are duplicates in that mode also

Game is made for you to counter what the other team has
I think draft would not be fun if say your team doesn't get dealt a char that can counter theirs

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

That's not really how Blizzard balances things. The only dev I've ever seen be flexible to changing a class, or whatever because they aren't working well in the current iteration of the game is the Dota team. I think every patch for the last five patches has seen heroes have significant changes to what their abilities actually do. Blizzard is all about small number tweeks, if problems persist with Bastion I full expect him to get a nerf to dps or turn speed. I personally think Bastion is fine.

I agree!

 

[Lightbreak]

There are many ways to counter Bastion
If you hear the ripping of a constant barrage of bullets from an area, guess what? Now you know where the Bastion is

So many players brute force themselves to beat Bastion and they fall
Smart players try to take advantage and get the better of him

I've seen so many Bastions get wrekt by a Genji with deflect
But most Genji players like to scale up walls and think sniping from a far they have the advantage
Some players just play the class wrong, they have to learn on the job, but most don't

I mean most Hanzos are used just so the Ultimate can be pulled of cause its so cool and goes through the whole map

Every character needs to be nerfed cause at any time you can die by them

Almost none uses their fav char right, almost none. People will go in claiming their pro-gamers, but in the end, the louder is the one with less everything.

Okay so they nerf Bastion which would make him effectively useless. Its not like the whining will just vanish, they'll just move on to something else.

Complaining is free, people like free stuff. 1+1 = Win

 

[Toxi]

The negativity surrounding Bastion reminds me of the incredible wave of people calling for Sentinel's head week 1 of MvC3.

It's just something about robots I guess

Kane Blue River won last year's EVO with post-nerf Sentinel, so maybe the people were on to something.

 

[pigeon]

All these git gud posts are missing the point.

I don't have trouble with Bastion. I used to and then I learned to deal with him.

But if a player at a low skill plateau encounters a challenge they find opaque, there's a good chance they'll just quit. That is bad for Blizzard.

We're not talking about personal skill levels, we're talking about game design. Get the net.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Whether they nerf Bastion or not, I'll always have concussion bomb jump grenade showers to tickle his fancy, or just juking with Mei.

 

[Mechazawa]

All these git gud posts are missing the point.

I don't have trouble with Bastion. I used to and then I learned to deal with him.

But if a player at a low skill plateau encounters a challenge they find opaque, there's a good chance they'll just quit. That is bad for Blizzard.

We're not talking about personal skill levels, we're talking about game design. Get the net.

The kind of people who are going to throw a hissy fit and immediately quit because mean ol' Bastion dunked on their team those couple of times aren't the type of long term rubes players Blizzard is looking to milk skins off of anyways if they're that thin skinned to learning a game.

 

[Lightbreak]

All these git gud posts are missing the point.

I don't have trouble with Bastion. I used to and then I learned to deal with him.

But if a player at a low skill plateau encounters a challenge they find opaque, there's a good chance they'll just quit. That is bad for Blizzard.

We're not talking about personal skill levels, we're talking about game design. Get the net.

Blizzard already got the money, they dont care. Is sad but true. And people shouldnt quit so easily. Fight for it. You improve that way. The other way around... well... better try not to get into that sinkhole... You encounter Bastion once... it shreds you to pieces... fine. Second attempt = maybe similar. But the third one? Still? Ehhhhh.... Marijuana is bad for your brain, guaranteed.

 

[Ferrio]

All these git gud posts are missing the point.

I don't have trouble with Bastion. I used to and then I learned to deal with him.

But if a player at a low skill plateau encounters a challenge they find opaque, there's a good chance they'll just quit. That is bad for Blizzard.

We're not talking about personal skill levels, we're talking about game design. Get the net.

But there's always going to a wall to overcome. If it's not Bastion it'll be something else. You can go down this rabbit hole forever and it'll just make the game worse.

 

[GraveRobberX]

All these git gud posts are missing the point.

I don't have trouble with Bastion. I used to and then I learned to deal with him.

But if a player at a low skill plateau encounters a challenge they find opaque, there's a good chance they'll just quit. That is bad for Blizzard.

We're not talking about personal skill levels, we're talking about game design. Get the net.

So the game should be made for the lowest common denominator?
Game wise Bastion fits perfectly into what his job is

If a player with low skill keeps running into the same Gatling gun over and over, whose fault is that?
Should the Bastion be penalized for doing their job

I mean, I get there should be adjustments, but nerfing is not needed
Game design is fine its players who have to adjust to the game design not game design adjust to players


If you really want an adjustment why not buff Bastion in Mechanical mode and swap the Sentry mode
If you stay in sentry every 15-20 seconds you lose DPS % with a cap say 1.5 minute with roughly a 25% DPS reduction
Yet if you go mobile and stay in that mode buff same way, but if you swap mode you lose it

 

[Eric WK]

imho blizzard should just nerf every character until they're all equally shitty and unfun to play

 

[Ferrio]

If you really want an adjustment why not buff Bastion in Mechanical mode and swap the Sentry mode
If you stay in sentry every 15-20 seconds you lose DPS % with a cap say 1.5 minute with roughly a 25% DPS reduction
Yet if you go mobile and stay in that mode buff same way, but if you swap mode you lose it

To what end? To make him a worse Solder 76? He's a turret, that's his thing.

 

[Mechazawa]

Also, this is completely anecdotal, but the amount of Bastions I saw on defense across my time in the beta and alpha is not proportional to how often I see people talk/make jokes about him.

 

[GraveRobberX]

imho blizzard should just nerf every character until they're all equally shitty and unfun to play

That's what Destiny has been doing for the last 1.5 year
Nerfing everything and forcing their TTK boner timer to increase twofold (TTK = time to kill)


Can you imgaine killing characters be roughly 10+ seconds longer than they are, people would drop this game quick
No one dieing, players surviving and running away, it would just be a snooze fest

 

[Poodlestrike]

The kind of people who are going to throw a hissy fit and immediately quit because mean ol' Bastion dunked on their team those couple of times aren't the type of long term rubes players Blizzard is looking to milk skins off of anyways if they're that thin skinned to learning a game.

Generally not true. Being a whale and having a high tolerance for steep skill curves aren't really correlated, ime. Why do you think those freemium mobile games are so easy?

But there's always going to a wall to overcome. If it's not Bastion it'll be something else. You can go down this rabbit hole forever and it'll just make the game worse.

But it doesn't have to be a wall. Difficulty curves, not difficulty cliffs, yeah?

So the game should be made for the lowest common denominator?
Game wise Bastion fits perfectly into what his job is

If a player with low skill keeps running into the same Gatling gun over and over, whose fault is that?
Should the Bastion be penalized for doing their job

I mean, I get there should be adjustments, but nerfing is not needed
Game design is fine its players who have to adjust to the game design not game design adjust to players


If you really want an adjustment why not buff Bastion in Mechanical mode and swap the Sentry mode
If you stay in sentry every 15-20 seconds you lose DPS % with a cap say 1.5 minute with roughly a 25% DPS reduction
Yet if you go mobile and stay in that mode buff same way, but if you swap mode you lose it

Asking for an alteration isn't the same as asking for a nerf tho.

The idea of having Bastion effectively "charge up" in mobile mode and "spend" that charge in sentry mode is interesting. I was thinking about ditching the turret for some kind of extra-high mobility mode, one with lower damage, but that could be cool too.

Also, literally the whole point of game design is to adjust to players, within reason. Players are the reason the game is designed at all.

 

[Ferrio]

But it doesn't have to be a wall. Difficulty curves, not difficulty cliffs, yeah?

But there is no cliff, that's the point. Hell there's barely a curve. He's a turret, he sits in a spot and mows people down. If you cannot make the connection that running headfirst into him is bad, then it's a bit of a lost cause.

Though I'm not surprised Bastion is giving people issues after this Doom/Polygon thing.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Also, this is completely anecdotal, but the amount of Bastions I saw on defense across my time in the beta and alpha is not proportional to how often I see people talk/make jokes about him.

He wasn't very fun to play. I used him twice, once just to see what he's like and a second time when our team was dominating and I didn't have much to do lol

 

[GraveRobberX]

To what end? To make him a worse Solder 76? He's a turret, that's his thing.

I'm not saying to do this, I'm just throwing out an idea to people who for some reason to think Bastion is some god mode character
Like give me an idea as to what do you want to fix him with

I came up with something at least
I main him and Mei through their class, Junkrat as backup

 

[Poodlestrike]

But there is no cliff, that's the point. Hell there's barely a curve. He's a turret, he sits in a spot and mows people down. If you cannot make the connection that running headfirst into him is bad, then it's a bit of a lost cause.

Look, I can't say I disagree with you here, but at the same time, there's a fair bit of evidence that people are struggling with it.

 

[GraveRobberX]

Look, I can't say I disagree with you here, but at the same time, there's a fair bit of evidence that people are struggling with it.

You know how many players die to the stupid Bjorn Turret on Volksaya (sp?) Industries during objective B due to those floating platforms on the left side that keep rotating clock wise
So fucking many...

Like kill that stupid turret, yet people get chipped by it, keep moving, then when it comes around die to it
Its become a staple on that map
Its almost guaranteed if you're on defense on that map, the fucking turret will show up

No one complains cause its just a hindrance not a full fledged deterrent

 

[SomeOneInaHat]

Look, I can't say I disagree with you here, but at the same time, there's a fair bit of evidence that people are struggling with it.

I think we're seeing people interacting with the problem. Some people don't see how to solve the combat puzzle, so they go to an outside source to find solutions. They're first intuition is to think that its broken because they don't see the answer right off the bat, that's fine. Heck, its been really nice seeing people have a genuine voice about this because it shows that people are willing to look deeper into the problem rather jumping off of the perceived difficulty "cliff". A big part of this game is finding out what characters counter each other, Bastion seems like a good red herring for new players to start usin' they're noodle and start getting crafty with their character selection.

 

[Mechazawa]

Generally not true. Being a whale and having a high tolerance for steep skill curves aren't really correlated, ime. Why do you think those freemium mobile games are so easy?

There's nothing like the stuff in those games in Overwatch. Those free mobile games have models where you buy in to progress faster or temporarily become stronger and attract a different kind of "casual" player than the type of person who decides to pick up an online PVP shooter.

If you're gonna put down the sword at Bastion, you're gonna put down the sword at other stuff in the game and probably were going to jump ship to some other shooter in the long term.

 

[Poodlestrike]

You know how many players die to the stupid Bjorn Turret on Volksaya (sp?) Industries during objective B due to those floating platforms on the left side that keep rotating clock wise
So fucking many...

Like kill that stupid turret, yet people get chipped by it, keep moving, then when it comes around die to it
Its become a staple on that map
Its almost guaranteed if you're on defense on that map, the fucking turret will show up

No one complains cause its just a hindrance not a full fledged deterrent

Not gonna lie, never actually saw that. Did see a Bastion up on there once, though.

I think we're seeing people interacting with the problem. Some people don't see how to solve the combat puzzle, so they go to an outside source to find solutions. They're first intuition is to think that its broken because they don't see the answer right off the bat, that's fine. Heck, its been really nice seeing people have a genuine voice about this because it shows that people are willing to look deeper into the problem rather jumping off of the perceived difficulty "cliff". A big part of this game is finding out what characters counter each other, Bastion seems like a good red herring for new players to start usin' they're noodle and start getting crafty with their character selection.

Man, if that's intentional, it's some 11th dimensional chess shit from Blizzard, lol.

There's nothing like the stuff in those games in Overwatch. Those free mobile games have models where you buy in to progress faster or temporarily become stronger and attract a different kind of "casual" player than the type of person who decides to pick up an online PVP shooter.

If you're gonna put down the sword at Bastion, you're gonna put down the sword at other stuff in the game and probably were going to jump ship to some other shooter in the long term.

All I'm saying is, tolerance for difficulty =/= willingness to spend, which is the big factor in microtransactions

Not saying people who give up at Bastion weren't going to give up at some point anyway, which is maybe true, maybe not.

 

[pigeon]

There's nothing like the stuff in those games in Overwatch. Those free mobile games have models where you buy in to progress faster or temporarily become stronger and attract a different kind of "casual" player than the type of person who decides to pick up an online PVP shooter.

If you're gonna put down the sword at Bastion, you're gonna put down the sword at other stuff in the game and probably were going to jump ship to some other shooter in the long term.

This is just not true. Have you not heard of the most popular free to play game in the world, League of Legends?

I realize that it's hard to envision for people who are actively posting on an internet message board exclusively devoted to near-real-time conversation about video games, but the vast majority of people who play all these games are not hardcore. Games that are populated exclusively by hardcore players look way more like CS:GO than Overwatch in terms of community size and intensity.

That doesn't mean these players aren't aspirational, but it does mean that bad game experiences can definitely block them from becoming the monetizing pillars of the community that Blizzard wants them to be.

So the game should be made for the lowest common denominator?

Welcome to Blizzard Entertainment's portfolio of games.

But there is no cliff, that's the point. Hell there's barely a curve. He's a turret, he sits in a spot and mows people down. If you cannot make the connection that running headfirst into him is bad, then it's a bit of a lost cause.

I mean, I appreciate that you didn't find it difficult, but you have to be real here. When there's a meme that's just a gif of Blizzard's social team responding to people complaining about a character that is so redolent that we want to make it the title of the official thread, I think the evidence pretty strongly suggests that a lot of players find Bastion especially frustrating to deal with in a way that they don't about, like, Widowmaker.

I think we're seeing people interacting with the problem. Some people don't see how to solve the combat puzzle, so they go to an outside source to find solutions. They're first intuition is to think that its broken because they don't see the answer right off the bat, that's fine. Heck, its been really nice seeing people have a genuine voice about this because it shows that people are willing to look deeper into the problem rather jumping off of the perceived difficulty "cliff". A big part of this game is finding out what characters counter each other, Bastion seems like a good red herring for new players to start usin' they're noodle and start getting crafty with their character selection.

This is not a crazy analysis, but I think that if this is what Blizzard wants they need to be more explicit at the moment of death and reincarnation that you should CONSIDER SWITCHING CHARACTERS. It's not actually a super natural decision to make! Mostly Blizzard just gives you some tips about what weaknesses characters might have. They should consider just telling you to switch to a character that has a good win rate against your nemesis that you've played before.

 

[Nickle]

I don't give a shit if Bastion is good in the pro meta game, he's annoying to play against in pub matches. Give him a corner, teammates who have situational awareness, and a healer/Reinhardt, and there's not much you can do about him. He mows down people and shields in seconds, has crazy range, and barely takes any time to reload. Once Bastion finds a decent spot and plops down, any idiot can move his mouse around and destroy the enemy team.

 

[Xeteh]

I don't give a shit if Bastion is good in the pro meta game, he's annoying to play against in pub matches. Give him a corner, teammates who have situational awareness, and a healer/Reinhardt, and there's not much you can do about him. He mows down people and shields in seconds, has crazy range, and barely takes any time to reload. Once Bastion finds a decent spot and plops down, any idiot can move his mouse around and destroy the enemy team.

Assuming they do all those things, pick Tracer then once you have her ult you blink in, stick it on him and press E. Now he's dead and you're fine.

I do like how you mention him in the pub context then talk about him having a team revolving around him as if that would ever happen consistently in pub games.

 

[HariKari]

I don't give a shit if Bastion is good in the pro meta game, he's annoying to play against in pub matches. Give him a corner, teammates who have situational awareness, and a healer/Reinhardt, and there's not much you can do about him. He mows down people and shields in seconds, has crazy range, and barely takes any time to reload. Once Bastion finds a decent spot and plops down, any idiot can move his mouse around and destroy the enemy team.

Is it really that hard to take him out at distance with a sniper, or to use tracer, junkrat, or genji? Never had a problem with him in the beta except a few cheese spots/tactics.

 

[Mechazawa]

This is just not true. Have you not heard of the most popular free to play game in the world, League of Legends?

I realize that it's hard to envision for people who are actively posting on an internet message board exclusively devoted to near-real-time conversation about video games, but the vast majority of people who play all these games are not hardcore. Games that are populated exclusively by hardcore players look way more like CS:GO than Overwatch in terms of community size and intensity.

That doesn't mean these players aren't aspirational, but it does mean that bad game experiences can definitely block them from becoming the monetizing pillars of the community that Blizzard wants them to be.

Yes, I have, and just as I'm sure that the Shacos of the world were used as scapegoats for players who were invariably going to bounce off the game anyways(and which I'm sure barely registers for most people now with the passage of time), so to are Bastions.

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't a question of being "hardcore" or whatever, this is a question of choosing to tune a game to an early days opinionated base that probably were never going to stick with the game anyways and were going to find something else to laser in on.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

You could nerf Bastion into ineffectiveness, at which point all those twitter posts would probably be about someone like Widowmaker and Hanzo because getting killed in one shot isn't fair or something.

 

[SomeOneInaHat]

This is not a crazy analysis, but I think that if this is what Blizzard wants they need to be more explicit at the moment of death and reincarnation that you should CONSIDER SWITCHING CHARACTERS. It's not actually a super natural decision to make! Mostly Blizzard just gives you some tips about what weaknesses characters might have. They should consider just telling you to switch to a character that has a good win rate against your nemesis that you've played before.

This is actually a very good suggestion. Something in the style of they're tool tips would be nice.

Also, maybe their problem is in their somewhat bare bones initial tutorial. It would be nice if they had an initial tutorial that did a little more than teach the player how to move and shoot as Solider: 76. They have other tutorials available for each character, but I feel like there should be something right off the bat that demonstrates what a bad match-up looks like. Maybe some sort of scenario trainer for often complained about match-ups.

 

[Ferrio]

I mean, I appreciate that you didn't find it difficult, but you have to be real here. When there's a meme that's just a gif of Blizzard's social team responding to people complaining about a character that is so redolent that we want to make it the title of the official thread, I think the evidence pretty strongly suggests that a lot of players find Bastion especially frustrating to deal with in a way that they don't about, like, Widowmaker..

Because they have yet to play against a good Widowmaker. Bastion's skill level is a lot lower than the rest of the cast, so it's no surprise people are getting more kills with him.

 

[pigeon]

Because they have yet to play against a good Widowmaker. Bastion's skill level is a lot easier than the rest of the cast, so it's no surprise people are getting more kills with him.

That is literally the definition of a noob stomper, somebody who's radically easier than the rest of the cast to reach a decent level of effectiveness with. That's the entire point I'm making!

 

[Nickle]

Assuming they do all those things, pick Tracer then once you have her ult you blink in, stick it on him and press E. Now he's dead and you're fine.

I do like how you mention him in the pub context then talk about him having a team revolving around him as if that would ever happen consistently in pub games.

So every time a Bastion is playing defense I have to pick Tracer, charge up my ult, and hope that I get him before his team mows me down?

And yes, this strategy requires like 2 people to coordinate in pubs, it's not that farfetched.

Is it really that hard to take him out at distance with a sniper, or to use tracer, junkrat, or genji? Never had a problem with him in the beta except a few cheese spots/tactics.

If he's in a corner you can't hit his weak spot, and you need two fully charged shots from Widow or Hanzo to kill him, assuming none of his teammates are attacking you, he isn't being shielded, and he isn't being healed. Junkrat can't get him from a long range, and Genji gets mowed down after you read his counter.

 

[Ferrio]

That is literally the definition of a noob stomper, somebody who's radically easier than the rest of the cast to reach a decent level of effectiveness with. That's the entire point I'm making!

Then if we agree it's a noob stomper, why are we discussing nerfing him?

So every time a Bastion is playing defense I have to pick Tracer, charge up my ult, and hope that I get him before his team mows me down?

It's easy to get through the front lines as Tracer and ulting bastion.

 

[pigeon]

Then if we agree it's a noob stomper, why are we discussing nerfing him?

Bastion is probably going to get changed, not because he's too strong, but because he's such a noob killer. Player experience is important to Blizzard's design even if the experience is wrong.

They can probably find some good ways to make him feel better without changing much about him. Personally I think the turret could probably just have more scatter at long range and be mostly okay.

.

 

[spiritfox]

Just increase his spread at range so he can't snipe with the turret.