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Pachter was right about PS4 graphics

T

ThisWreckage

Banned
A lot of Sony games go through multiple stages where they look better and better until the games are released. Especially games by Guerilla, Santa Monica, and Naughty Dog. The leap is not going to be as big as PS2 to Dreamcast, but aspects of presentation will improve drastically.
 
DESTROYA

DESTROYA

Member
He was? What was shown was very early developement games and personally I think KZ looked great.Not exactly sure what most people expect but 1080P games at 60FPS is big jump.
 
M

mentalfloss

Banned
farnham said:
It depends. Will you be able to go everywhere you see in that scrreenshot or will it be a pretty background. If the latter is true thats progress indeed. However just looking at the screens i dont see a big jump from what current gen titles offered. Obviously unlike some people here on gaf im not someone who can tell from a screen how many pixels are there and whhat shaders are used and how many fps that game will run on
Click to expand...

You are a bit more representative of the wider audience that Sony will fail to capture at launch. The rest of us are tech fetishists that are a really small percentage of the userbase.

Sony is going to struggle because of this and Pachter is vindicated for once.
 
P

Pancakes R Us

Member
Demon Lizardman said:
Am I the only one who thought it look like a nice leap from this gens graphics? Mane you guys were overhyped.
Click to expand...
No, I thought so too. People have been talking about 'tearing' in Watch Dogs and you know what? I don't even know what that is. I think the game looks fantastic. I'm so glad I stopped reading reviews for games.
 
A

archnemesis

Member
Pancakes R Us said:
No, I thought so too. People have been talking about 'tearing' in Watch Dogs and you know what? I don't even know what that is. I think the game looks fantastic. I'm so glad I stopped reading reviews for games.
Click to expand...
798px-Tearing_%28simulated%29.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_tearing
 
P

Persona86

Banned
ThisWreckage said:
A lot of Sony games go through multiple stages where they look better and better until the games are released. Especially games by Guerilla, Santa Monica, and Naughty Dog. The leap is not going to be as big as PS2 to Dreamcast, but aspects of presentation will improve drastically.
Click to expand...

Even Metal Gear Rising looks way better than I excepted while I'm playing.
 
P

Persona86

Banned
DeviousAngel said:
The lighting (including all those cool reflections), sheer amount of detail and all the stuff going on in the background in that killzone gif is unlike anything I've personally seen on current gen consoles. I'm not someone who pays a lot of attention to graphics but there's clearly a difference.

We ARE reaching a plateau when it comes to visuals, however, especially for the average consumer. I'm not sure your everyday John Doe will be as appreciative of glitter and shine as us gaffers, especially when it comes with a price tag that could very well be $200-300 above current gen offerings.
Click to expand...
Everyone likes pretty graphics, I'm sure many will notice.

What we do need is improvements in animation, physics and especially A.I. Those will actually make huge differences to how games will evolve.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
StuBurns said:
But how is it practically a QTE? Even if it was, I don't really understand what difference that makes to the visuals.
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Well last gen fed me up with cinematic sequences where the player has very little impact or control on what is happening. They have long since stopped impressing me in any way. Their main point is to make the player wow and focus on the epic action.

It might as well be a cutscene with button prompts.
 
A

aktham

Member
The biggest generational leap (or evolution) was from Gensis/SNES to PSOne. I don't think that will much of leap will ever be matched again.
 
Z

zoukka

Member
Kinyou said:
I'm pretty sure that they said that those are the graphics they're aiming for

Edit: Here
Click to expand...

I just dislike the term. It was clearly a promotional trailer and the link even repeats that. They are aiming to get the visuals as close to it as possible sure, but it's just PR talk.
 
B

Buft

Neo Member
As everyone else has mentioned these are launch titles and even at that, the games look stunning, not to mention the shear level of detail you just aren't getting on current gen devices.
the one thing i always enjoy is the demonstration of processing power at these events, from the million Marios to the physics demonstration at the Playstation meeting, that gets me truly excited about whats in store this generation.
 
P

Perkel

Banned
zoukka said:
I just dislike the term. It was clearly a promotional trailer and the link even repeats that. They are aiming to get the visuals as close to it as possible sure, but it's just PR talk.
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You are right but it will be 2015 then. I am 99% sure they can achieve that artstyle with very very close quality to that CGI. 100% sure it will need a good PC to run it.

nel e nel said:
A broken clock is right twice a day.
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Well Patcher was wrong because it was a big leap. KZ4 gameplay demo which isn't even alpha looked simply amazing, whole set-piece with flying over city was just simply to good to be true (but it was).

Many people say gameplay wasn't next gen but i always smile at those comments. When this generation started games weren't different to PS2 games. Gears of War which changed TPP rules wasn't lunch title, COD4 which changed how we play FPS on consoles wasn't lunch title. Uncharted 1 which introduced context animations wasn't lunch title. It is only hard work and creativity that allow next gen gameplay to be created not some console lunch. When devs get a hold of devkits they will start to experiment.
 
L

lockload

Member
It seems the over use of lens flare and mist/fog/smoke will define 'nextgen' games

The amount of this in killzne and watchdogs was way over the top
 
P

Perkel

Banned
lockload said:
It seems the over use of lens flare and mist/fog/smoke will define 'nextgen' games

The amount of this in killzne and watchdogs was way over the top
Click to expand...

Lens flare i agree but rest ? You know shit were exploding there so you expect there will be no smoke ?

How about finally good IQ with good res AA+AF, razor sharp textures, better physic for things like debris, bodies, water simulation all those things are more important to final image imo.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
So I watched the 1080p gameplay demo my 50" Panasonic GT30 plasma.

My review: you have to be BLIND to not notice a huge leap instantly! That or you're gaming on TVs smaller than 32" while sitting 10+ feet away.
 
J

Jac_Solar

Member
What is the name of the guy who came up with the PC tech advancement law, where he says that we'll eventually hit a point of diminishing returns -- or, the newest, best graphic card will just be slightly better than the one you bought years ago.

Not sure what specifically he claimed, but it was something along those lines -- that PC advancement will eventually hit a point where just a slight increase in performance will barely be possible -- perhaps it has something to do with a very real limit on human microchip technology or something like that.

Anyways, I think he predicted that at around either year 2014 or 2018, nvidia/AMD/cpu and gpu manufacturers could no longer keep the same pace of upgrades.
 
B

Biggzy

Member
Jac_Solar said:
What is the name of the guy who came up with the PC tech advancement law, where he says that we'll eventually hit a point of diminishing returns -- or, the newest, best graphic card will just be slightly better than the one you bought years ago.

Not sure what specifically he claimed, but it was something along those lines -- that PC advancement will eventually hit a point where just a slight increase in performance will barely be possible -- perhaps it has something to do with a very real limit on human microchip technology or something like that.

Anyways, I think he predicted that at around either year 2014 or 2018, nvidia/AMD/cpu and gpu manufacturers could no longer keep the same pace of upgrades.
Click to expand...

Moore's Law?
 
dragonfart28

dragonfart28

Banned
I think most of GAF is way too forgiving.

Killzone 4 is a prime example of how most here need to step back and realize the hook is in their mouth.
 
yurinka

yurinka

Member
Just checking the jump in hardware specs, considering that now devs aren't going to stuggle with R&D to understand how esoteric HW works and what has been hinted in the conference with launch games or tech demos made with the half of RAM that's going to be in the retail console, I'm pretty sure that it's going to be the biggest generational leap ever.

Obviously it won't be that noticiable in the first games for the system, basically made without knowing the final specs and without having the final hardware since the start to plan everything around it. But I'm pretty sure that they will look way, way better than current gen games.

But I expect them to run at 1080p and solid 30fps or 60fps, they won't do the 240fps thing basically because devs prefer the games look better over a framerate faster than most tvs in the market can handle. They will prefer instead to do 60fps that look better.
 
M

Moosichu

Member
mentalfloss said:
Moore's law
Click to expand...

Moore's law is basically the opposite of that. It's the law of diminishing returns combined with the fact that we are reaching the limit when it comes to the size of transistors we make. However, quantum computers and other non-silicon based technologies look promising.
 
Flatline

Flatline

Banned
ThisWreckage said:
A lot of Sony games go through multiple stages where they look better and better until the games are released. Especially games by Guerilla, Santa Monica, and Naughty Dog. The leap is not going to be as big as PS2 to Dreamcast, but aspects of presentation will improve drastically.
Click to expand...


And that's without taking into account the ridiculous increase in RAM PS4 dev kits will experience.
 
M

MrNyarlathotep

Banned
StuBurns said:
But how is it practically a QTE? Even if it was, I don't really understand what difference that makes to the visuals.
Click to expand...

If you're serious, the less actual interactivity you have as a gamer, the more your experience can be controlled, and the more smoke and mirrors you can apply to make visuals look better than they would under a similar more free form experience.

An on-rails shooter should always look better than a sandbox game, because you can always guarantee exactly what the players viewing frustrum is at any moment, and you only render geometry and textures visible within that frustrum.
So you put them on a theme park ride, and you make that ride look pretty.
Shit, you might as well put a big old CG-rendered animated texture as a skybox, the players never going to be able to move their own camera or get close enough to notice they're just looking at video in the background.
 
P

Perkel

Banned
Moosichu said:
Moore's law is basically the opposite of that. It's the law of diminishing returns combined with the fact that we are reaching the limit when it comes to the size of transistors we make. However, quantum computers and other non-silicon based technologies look promising.
Click to expand...

We will first hit realism barier.

People should not expect next Gran Turismo to look way better. Already with GT5 especially with overcast weather i had from time to time feeling of uncanny valley. With next GT they will only do more things that this uncanny valley will be more in your face.

Now what will matter most will be the IQ. Because it is IQ that makes this CGI difference. Knack already have scenes that could be easly mistaken for Pixar or dreamworks movie and i watched 1080p trailer and there was no any AA problems:

iMTT30pp3jZjg.gif


Right now for me best looking game is Knack simply because it shows terrific IQ that changes some scenes to really CGI looking ones.
 
oneils

oneils

Member
AstroNut325 said:
So I watched the 1080p gameplay demo my 50" Panasonic GT30 plasma.

My review: you have to be BLIND to not notice a huge leap instantly! That or you're gaming on TVs smaller than 32" while sitting 10+ feet away.
Click to expand...

I think that is a good point. Not a lot of people's a/v set ups are optimal. I have a 42 inch 720p panel that I sit about 10 feet from. I doubt I will be able to see much difference from PS4 launch titles to PS3 games. Not unless I upgrade my panel to 1080p and manage
to renovate my house in such a way that I can sit closer.
 
D

Derrick01

Banned
Pancakes R Us said:
No, I thought so too. People have been talking about 'tearing' in Watch Dogs and you know what? I don't even know what that is. I think the game looks fantastic. I'm so glad I stopped reading reviews for games.
Click to expand...

You shouldn't worry about it with that game anyway. It was proven to be the stream that was giving off the appearance of tearing.
 
P

Perkel

Banned
oneils said:
I think that is a good point. Not a lot of people's a/v set ups are optimal. I have a 42 inch 720p panel that I sit about 10 feet from. I doubt I will be able to see much difference from PS4 launch titles to PS3 games. Not unless I upgrade my panel to 1080p and manage
to renovate my house in such a way that I can sit closer.
Click to expand...

This will be more obvious with more games including high res textures and including more compex geometry.

The bigger textures are the more DPI you need to see them. Best example is Witcher 2 and Dark Souls armors. In 720p you won't see many details but when you switch to 1080p those razor sharp textures just pops out from picture and hit your eye with awesomness.

If you do not have real 1080p screen you won't see difference same as people with NTSC CRTs won't see difference between HD and SD.

I loaded that killzone4 vid 1.1 GB 1080p and jump from killzone 3 was just amazing.

They need get better AA though at times it brakes.
 
S

spekkeh

Banned
Even this Pachter got wrong, because I sincerely did not expect any large generational leaps. I find the UE4 demo wholly underwhelming, and that was made by a company that can spare the expense because it needs nice visuals to sell the engine. Dev costs have been spiraling out of control and there's really not that much to improve.

Imagine my surprise when I was pretty much blown away by what was on show here.

I mean, I know it means almost nothing. The DD demo was a closed off space, probably without any AI and stuff, and the Killzone demo was once again a narrow corridor with invisible walls and all the scenery stuff in a skybox. It's all smoke and mirrors and not that computationally heavy as it looks. I wish they'd use the extra processing power to not resort to closed off spaces and smoke an mirrors, but nope. Doesn't matter though, because it did look like a generational leap.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
oneils said:
I think that is a good point. Not a lot of people's a/v set ups are optimal. I have a 42 inch 720p panel that I sit about 10 feet from. I doubt I will be able to see much difference from PS4 launch titles to PS3 games. Not unless I upgrade my panel to 1080p and manage
to renovate my house in such a way that I can sit closer.
Click to expand...
Thankfully this is becoming less and less common over the years. Because given a setup like yours the differences in improvement stopped at DVD and GameCube.
 
P

Perkel

Banned
spekkeh said:
Even this Pachter got wrong, because I sincerely did not expect any large generational leaps. I find the UE4 demo wholly underwhelming, and that was made by a company that can spare the expense because it needs nice visuals to sell the engine. Dev costs have been spiraling out of control and there's really not that much to improve.

Imagine my surprise when I was pretty much blown away by what was on show here.

I mean, I know it means almost nothing. The DD demo was a closed off space, probably without any AI and stuff, and the Killzone demo was once again a narrow corridor with invisible walls and all the scenery stuff in a skybox. It's all smoke and mirrors and not that computationally heavy as it looks. I wish they'd use the extra processing power to not resort to closed off spaces and smoke an mirrors, but nope. Doesn't matter though, because it did look like a generational leap.
Click to expand...

I don't get it UE4 demo was amazing. They changed a bit lighting but it wasn't that much different than original PC demo.
 
S

spock

Member
To most people who are not hardcore gamer or tech heads the leap is there but its just not huge no matter how you slice it. Go grab a couple people you know and show them the ps4 game play videos and dont tell them what system there on...no jaws will be dropped...lol most will think its the 360 or ps3.

Argue it all you want, but I'm telling you.. Go and actually show normal/average potential consumers the gameplay video and see their response.
 
K

KidGalactus

Member
I think he was right.

The fact that GAF seems split down the middle regarding the issue is kind of proof of that.

I feel like it's a situation where if you wanted to feel good about what you saw, then it's easy to. Technically, these are good looking games.
However, I also feel like if you didn't want to feel good about what they showed, or weren't geared up to be impressed, then that's easy as well.

To me, this is indicative of a threshold being kind of straddled, not rocketed past. These games clearly look better, but right now I'm kind of dubious as to whether most people will notice.
 
O

orioto

Good Art™
mentalfloss said:
It's easy to use cartoonish games as an example because they don't need textures.
Click to expand...

Using texture quality as the ultimate benchmarch for graphics is the reason i don't like most pc games..

And it's way more complicated and demanding to use a proper light to make something natural.
 
A

AstroNut325

Member
spock said:
To most people who are not hardcore gamer or tech heads the leap is there but its just not huge no matter how you slice it. Go grab a couple people you know and show them the ps4 game play videos and dont tell them what system there on...no jaws will be dropped...lol most will think its the 360 or ps3.

Argue it all you want, but I'm telling you.. Go and actually show normal/average potential consumers the gameplay video and see their response.
Click to expand...
The EXACT same argument was made at the launch of the current generation. And I'll take it one step further. Almost every game on the PS360 launch also appeared on their predecessors.
 
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