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[kodt]

Call of Duty 4 / MW2 and Halo are played competitively with dual analog.

KB/Mouse is king sure, but you can't deny that there is a competitive scene using dual analog controls.

So am I correct in assuming most people here think that if COD:MW2 supported the Wii remote+nunchuck, that players who used the Wii controls would be far superior to those using dual analog?

 

[Firewire]

Third Person Shooters as well, likely. Basically, anything where you need to point accurately and rapidly at the screen would obviously be better if you have something that points rapidly and accurately.

Mini game collections are also apparently more fun, based on the explosion of interest in the genre. Some sports are as well. I'm not sure they're necessarily more effective for these latter ones, however.

Full disclaimer: I really have not used the Wii Mote much, personally. I've played perhaps an hour or two of RE4, along with a few other Wii games which were neither FPS or TPS. But again, it was blindingly apparent to me that the Wii Mote was a technical superior interface for pointing and shooting than a dual stick setup.

Well I have always experienced the twitch with the Wiimote. Having to constantly adjust the positioning doesn't make for good FPS controls. Maybe in a SP experience it isn't a big deal but in a competitive environment it is. It would amount to getting slaughtered, plus with the Wiimote there is almost no sense of weight to the controls and that leads to even more of a twitchy feel.

Some people may like it, but I certainly don't.

It would be interesting to have a MP match with Wiimotes against sticks in a good FPS one day. I think allot of motion control fans would be very surprised at the outcome.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't understand why "twitchy" is bad for FPS control. Perhaps I don't understand how the word is being used here. Do you mean "rapid, small movements?" Because that's a very good ability for a controller to have in a genre where you are constantly making rapid, small movements.

Can you explain please, FireWire?

The only thing I can logically think he means is that, depending on the wiimote's sensitivity, it is incredibly difficult to keep the reticule stable. This is either a good or a bad thing depending on where your skill level is.

My problem with wiimote is that the actual functionality is so varied from game to game that at best it can be called "unreliable." Actually, that's not really wiimote's fault so much as developer's fault.

I've played a sum total of... a half of a FPS... worth anything on Wii... and most of the time, the movement turn around is too slow, or the bounding box is way too large, or the aiming sensitivity is off the fucking charts ridiculous, or some other in-the-way bullshit. The absolute only thing Conduit got right was that it allowed me to fuck with all these options until I found something that approximated decent, and that took me damn near forty minutes of tinkering. And even after that, I had to deal with Conduit's abysmal gunplay and level design... so what was it for?

Which is my real problem with wiimote: for a controller that's supposed to make life easier, the only thing it's reliable at is making life more complicated. Never have I had to think about what the controller is doing more than I do for wiimote. Half the time I'm not even certain it's my fault. I have to worry about too much light, improper sensitivity, sensor bar obstructions, sensor bar placement, and all sorts of other devices that can "interrupt" the device according to Nintendo's own read out.

Number one reason I play games: to lay back and chill out. Number one reason I rarely play Wii games: because they're usually the exact opposite.

That's why I tend to avoid all FPS titles on the platform, aside from their inherent crippled nature due to Wii's horrendous online infrastructure and its limited power ruining level design, physics, A.I. and other such things.

 

[ViolentP]

Because people are stupid.

Yes. Yes they are.

 

[jufonuk]

Getting non Wii players to play FPSes ia the Wii mote is one of the main hurdles I have experienced when trying to get my cousin or brother or anyone to play.. ok they sometimes get put off on the graphics if they have played a HD version of the game.. but the main hurdle is trying to sell them on controlling the game with a pointer. if you go with the option of using the classic controller pro you are left with the why not play it on a HD system?

catch 22

This is a hurdle the PS Move/Natal will have to overcome

EDIT: to borrow from what Amirox said above ^ this is kind of the Reason I dont play PC games much any more, due to the fact I find myself tinkering with the settings too long to get a stable framerate or I have to spend half the time getting the right drivers, I always seem to get the system that fucks up the sound or has a stuttering frame rate.

All I wanna to is jump in an play and to me spending a little time messing around with deadZone settings etc feels a little better in my mind anyway then spending ages trying to get my game to run at all on my PC

 

[levious]

It would be interesting to have a MP match with Wiimotes against sticks in a good FPS one day. I think allot of motion control fans would be very surprised at the outcome.

assuming they don't suffer from Parkinson's, I think you'd be surprised. Meanwhile PC gamers would still be laughing at you.

 

[Firewire]

There's no such thing as a competitive FPS played with Dual Analog.

KbaM is the undisputed FPS king. Wiimote is acceptable for console games. Dual Analog+aim assist isn't in the same stratosphere.

Seriously you make me laugh. Good times!

 

[Branduil]

Seriously how can anyone defend Dual Analog as a good FPS control scheme? The fact that auto-aim has to be implemented says it all.

Take two teams of equal talent, give one side dual analog with no auto-aim and give the other side Wiimote controls and the Wiimote side would wipe the floor with them, no question.

 

[evangd007]

It would be interesting to have a MP match with Wiimotes against sticks in a good FPS one day. I think allot of motion control fans would be very surprised at the outcome.

That all depends. Will dual analog have their aim assist shut off? And I'm not just talking about the no-snap-to present in CoD hardcore modes, I mean all the bullshit under the hood that makes dual analog remotely playable. If so, then the dual analog players had better get used to watching kill cams.*

*And yes I know that no Wii CoD has had kill-cams.

 

[Lonely1]

It would be interesting to have a MP match with Wiimotes against sticks in a good FPS one day. I think allot of motion control fans would be very surprised at the outcome.

Internal Socom 4 testing results in Move users having too much of an advantage. ANyway, I posted my MW:R videos here and I was called out because I shouldn't be able to shot (and kill) with an Sniper from the hip like if it was a semi-auto Machine gun.

 

[Firewire]

assuming they don't suffer from Parkinson's, I think you'd be surprised. Meanwhile PC gamers would still be laughing at you.

You know there where some great KB/M vs Dual stick's games in Unreal 3, with some rather surprising outcomes. But I agree on the obvious that nothing beats KB/M.

Maybe having Parkinson's would somehow adjust for the twitch in motion control FPS's, but I wouldn't know. :lol

Anyways I'm out for dinner. Again good times guys.

 

[jufonuk]

Internal Socom 4 testing results in Move users having too much of an advantage. ANyway, I posted my MW:R videos here and I was called out because I shouldn't be able to shot (and kill) with an Sniper from the hip like if it was a semi-auto Machine gun.

what is the link for your vid's again?

 

[AwesomeSyrup]

Listen to this guy Activision. Give us Goldeneye with the MW2 engine.

 

[freddy]

I'm pleasantly surprised actually. I thought his love for the Wii would colour his opinion somewhat but it seems he's not letting his bias get in the way.

 

[levious]

You know there where some great KB/M vs Dual stick's games in Unreal 3, with some rather surprising outcomes. But I agree on the obvious that nothing beats KB/M.

Maybe having Parkinson's would somehow adjust for the twitch in motion control FPS's, but I wouldn't know. :lol

If you can hold your hand steady, the cursor will remain steady, I really don't think you've gotten to sample quality examples, of which there were nearly none within the first two years of the system.

 

[jufonuk]

Maybe having Parkinson's would somehow adjust for the twitch in motion control FPS's, but I wouldn't know. :lol

Michael J Fox is crying now thanks to you :lol

 

[ILikeFeet]

I don't know what the hell you people have been going on about for the past 6 pages, but I think it will succeed. how much QoS sold? if I remember correctly, it was pretty high compared to the HD versions. the point is, established names/franchises do well on the wii. Bond is an established name. everyone knows who 007 is. this selling well is very likely. I expect The Conduit numbers if not higher. (knowing Activision, the budget won't be that high)

 

[Opiate]

DP.

 

[Opiate]

The only thing I can logically think he means is that, depending on the wiimote's sensitivity, it is incredibly difficult to keep the reticule stable. This is either a good or a bad thing depending on where your skill level is.

My problem with wiimote is that the actual functionality is so varied from game to game that at best it can be called "unreliable." Actually, that's not really wiimote's fault so much as developer's fault.

I've played a sum total of... a half of a FPS... worth anything on Wii... and most of the time, the movement turn around is too slow, or the bounding box is way too large, or the aiming sensitivity is off the fucking charts ridiculous, or some other in-the-way bullshit. The absolute only thing Conduit got right was that it allowed me to fuck with all these options until I found something that approximated decent, and that took me damn near forty minutes of tinkering. And even after that, I had to deal with Conduit's abysmal gunplay and level design... so what was it for?

Which is my real problem with wiimote: for a controller that's supposed to make life easier, the only thing it's reliable at is making life more complicated. Never have I had to think about what the controller is doing more than I do for wiimote. Half the time I'm not even certain it's my fault. I have to worry about too much light, improper sensitivity, sensor bar obstructions, sensor bar placement, and all sorts of other devices that can "interrupt" the device according to Nintendo's own read out.

Number one reason I play games: to lay back and chill out. Number one reason I rarely play Wii games: because they're usually the exact opposite.

That's why I tend to avoid all FPS titles on the platform, aside from their inherent crippled nature due to Wii's horrendous online infrastructure and its limited power ruining level design, physics, A.I. and other such things.

Thanks, all of that makes sense.

In addition, like I said, you can also just say, "I've used this controller for 20 years, and I'm simply accustomed to it." I think many people don't like to say that because it makes them seem like a curmudgeon, but it's a totally reasonable explanation. This is entertainment: you are not awarded points for being technically or philosophically progressive.

Internal Socom 4 testing results in Move users having too much of an advantage. ANyway, I posted my MW:R videos here and I was called out because I shouldn't be able to shot (and kill) with an Sniper from the hip like if it was a semi-auto Machine gun.

Do you have a link for this?

 

[Lonely1]

Do you have a link for this?

About, the Socom 4 was from the developers interviews at the GDC.

 

[Amir0x]

Thanks, all of that makes sense.

In addition, like I said, you can also just say, "I've used this controller for 20 years, and I'm simply accustomed to it." I think many people don't like to say that because it makes them seem like a curmudgeon, but it's a totally reasonable explanation. This is entertainment: you are not awarded points for being technically or philosophically progressive.

Absolutely. However, for all the years I've played games with a controller, I've rarely had to think about anything at all other than "is it comfortable." If a controller is badly designed, it is instantly recognizable what its faults are, and usually some third party manufacturer makes a better one.

So obviously one is more used to a certain type of controller, but I also think it's fair to say wiimote is unlike any controller than has come before it. It is infinitely more complex and infinitely more things can go wrong that inhibit a person from playing a game "correctly." It's a real shame.

To me the technology is never going to be there until we don't have to re-calibrate or we don't have to worry about light fucking shit up or we don't have to worry about X, Y, Z. That's when we have a motion controller that'll begin being worth something imo.

 

[Opiate]

Absolutely. However, for all the years I've played games with a controller, I've rarely had to think about anything at all other than "is it comfortable." If a controller is badly designed, it is instantly recognizable what its faults are, and usually some third party manufacturer makes a better one.

So obviously one is more used to a certain type of controller, but I also think it's fair to say wiimote is unlike any controller than has come before it. It is infinitely more complex and infinitely more things can go wrong that inhibit a person from playing a game "correctly." It's a real shame.

To me the technology is never going to be there until we don't have to re-calibrate or we don't have to worry about light fucking shit up or we don't have to worry about X, Y, Z. That's when we have a motion controller that'll begin being worth something imo.

I can absolutely understand that, and it's a totally valid viewpoint. I wasn't trying to diminish your position, just trying to add one of many possible explanations for why one would prefer a traditional controller to the Wii Mote -- or, for that matter, to the Mouse and Keyboard (some people don't want to use a M/KB after working with them all day, some people aren't accustomed to using them, and so forth. All reasonable arguments).

There are lots of possible, valid explanations for preferring the traditional controller. I just don't think "technical precision" is one of them. At least in the case of FPS. Technical precision absolutely is a valid argument for action games, fighting games, racers, and many other genres.

 

[thefro]

Isn't this debate a moot point since the Classic Controller is supported based on the leaked marketing materials?

 

[AniHawk]

Isn't this debate a moot point since the Classic Controller is supported based on the leaked marketing materials?

NO, THERE SHALL BE MORE YELLING

 

[Opiate]

Isn't this debate a moot point since the Classic Controller is supported based on the leaked marketing materials?

I would argue that it's moot because this is actually supposed to be a thread about sales potential, not controller potential.

But that's a short discussion: most people here agree that this game will sell poorly.

 

[Lijik]

I actually don't know any hardcore gamers with Wiis

yeah, no shit. they hide it in their closet whenever company comes around.

 

[cacildo]

I play Modern Warfare Reflex since release. At least once a week. it controls great with the wiimote. There´s nothing "twichy" about it. It points where you point it. Hold it steady and it will be steady. Its all in your hand.

Yet i got a Ps3 and downloaded the Killzone 2 demo...

Oh God, the Ps3 needs a wiimote... FAST!!!!!!!!! Its simple a terrible experience to go back to dual analogs. Its like playing mario 64 with a D-pad... or worst

Ill only buy Killzone 2 if Sony promises some Move support (and some reviews to make sure that damn thing works!).

 

[farnham]

I would argue that it's moot because this is actually supposed to be a thread about sales potential, not controller potential.

But that's a short discussion: most people here agree that this game will sell poorly.

what is poorly?

will it sell something like quantum solace wii ? probably yes

will it sell something like cod waw wii? probably yes

will it sell something like wii fit ? probably no

 

[ViolentP]

I play Modern Warfare Reflex since release. At least once a week. it controls great with the wiimote. There´s nothing "twichy" about it. It points where you point it. Hold it steady and it will be steady. Its all in your hand.

Yet i got a Ps3 and downloaded the Killzone 2 demo...

Oh God, the Ps3 needs a wiimote... FAST!!!!!!!!! Its simple a terrible experience to go back to dual analogs. Its like playing mario 64 with a D-pad... or worst

Ill only buy Killzone 2 if Sony promises some Move support (and some reviews to make sure that damn thing works!).

How about you keep the Wiimote and leave us with our D-pad.

 

[Alex]

I've never had too many problems with the Wii remotes IR aiming, it's a bit sluggish and can go nuts when you look away from the TV, but that seems like it'd be more due to individual design. I couldn't speak for FPS design as I wouldn't play those sorts of things on the Wii.

But there is more, even in most FPS titles, to the game than aiming. I wish Nintendo would do a revision on their controllers that gives you more access to the actual buttons on the thing. You always have to do some sort of MH PSP-esque Hand Position-Fu and it gets really grating after awhile in games that make liberal use of 1/2 +/-

I'll be blunt though, a lot of the games I enjoy on the Wii are in spite of controls. I flat out do not like IR pointing or gesture control though, I don't think the tech is there and I find it an uncomfortable hodgepodge between mouse control and pad control, so catering to me is probably a bad idea!

Goldeneye though, what a weird remake. I don't think it's confusing though, if that bit I read about Eurocom making it is true. They have a free, somewhat low priority developer, a license and caught wind of that stuff Rare wanted to do. Can probably turn a nostalgia based profit without investing a lot of cash even if it doesn't set the world aflame.

 

[Spike]

So you're actually not a hardcore gamer, and neither are your friends.

A hardcore gamer play GAMES on every platform they can, they don't care what name is printed on the console, that's a TRUE hardcore gamer.

.

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

How about you keep the Wiimote and leave us with our D-pad.

You play FPS's with the D-pad?

 

[ViolentP]

You play FPS's with the D-pad?

Nah. It was referring to cacildo saying:

"Its simple a terrible experience to go back to dual analogs. Its like playing mario 64 with a D-pad... or worst"

 

[Cerebral Assassin]

Nah. It was referring to cacildo saying:
"Oh God, the Ps3 needs a wiimote... FAST!!!!!!!!! Its simple a terrible experience to go back to dual analogs. Its like playing mario 64 with a D-pad... or worst"

I don't think you quite understood him, he is saying playing FPS's with Dual-Analogs after playing them with Wiimote/Nunchuk is like playing SM64 with a D-pad.

 

[cacildo]

Nah. It was referring to cacildo saying:

Yeah, but you know we´ll be having both, right?

Sony will release regular games, but with Move aiming support.

Analog people will play with analogs and move people will... move it around.

At least if sony has something in its symbolic corporate head, that´s what will happen.

My bet is that if Move works as fine as the wiimote for FPSs, people will ditch the dual analog setting in a heartbeat.

 

[EDarkness]

I don't want to get into a debate about how accurate the Wii remote is for playing FPS games. It varies so much from person to person, that it's not worth getting into.

However, I will say if this game turns out to be good, I will pick it up. I'm still waiting for a high class FPS with high production values and a good single player mode. Perhaps this game will deliver.

 

[ViolentP]

I don't think you quite understood him, he is saying playing FPS's with Dual-Analogs after playing them with Wiimote/Nunchuk is like playing SM64 with a D-pad.

Yeah, I know. I'm saying keep his Wiimote, PS3 owners can keep dual analogs. The d-pad part wasn't literal.

 

[ViolentP]

Yeah, but you know we´ll be having both, right?

Sony will release regular games, but with Move aiming support.

Analog people will play with analogs and move people will... move it around.

At least if sony has something in its symbolic corporate head, that´s what will happen.

My bet is that if Move works as fine as the wiimote for FPSs, people will ditch the dual analog setting in a heartbeat.

I don't mind the inception of the motion control in every game to be honest. So long as I have the option to play with a controller. Adventure games and golf games? I'll take the Move. Just about anything else, I'm simply more comfortable controlling with my thumb than wrist.

 

[1-D_FTW]

You are seriously either insane or really have never used the Wiimote if you think dual analog is better for FPS. Dual Analog FPS controls are garbage that needs to go into the dustbin of history.

This. The dual analog controller is gone next generation and I welcome it's demise. The thing is awful compared to motion for FPS. I'll still take a mouse/keyboard any day of the week, but it's no contest for what's second best.

 

[Kilrogg]

I can absolutely understand that, and it's a totally valid viewpoint. I wasn't trying to diminish your position, just trying to add one of many possible explanations for why one would prefer a traditional controller to the Wii Mote -- or, for that matter, to the Mouse and Keyboard (some people don't want to use a M/KB after working with them all day, some people aren't accustomed to using them, and so forth. All reasonable arguments).

There are lots of possible, valid explanations for preferring the traditional controller. I just don't think "technical precision" is one of them. At least in the case of FPS. Technical precision absolutely is a valid argument for action games, fighting games, racers, and many other genres.

To provide a counterpoint to Amir0x's view, I've seldom used dual analog sticks in my life, especially for FPSes (the reason being that I had a Dreamcast and a PS2 last gen, with no games that used one/both sticks for aiming). Basically, I've only played a bit of Halo and a bit of Metroid Prime on other people's systems. Metroid Prime doesn't really count since the aiming is taken care of by the lock-on feature. I eventually got used to Halo's controls, but after leaving the game for a long time and getting back to it, I was horrified to see that my aiming had become atrocious.

I've used the Wii's pointer for a variety of games: Elebits, Wii Play, Metroid Prime 3 (expert mode), Endless Ocean, Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles, Link's Crossbow Training and Super Mario Galaxy. All of those use it in different ways with varying degrees of precision needed (MP3 being the most demanding). But for me, it's way faster to get used to the pointer, whatever the game. I understand Amir0x's complaint, it's just that I think it's not necessarily exclusive to pointer controls (well, with the exception of lighting issues). It depends on what you've been playing all those years. Coming from PC games like Unreal Tournament, the Wiimote's pointer feels way more natural (and indeed, technically better) than dual analog sticks.

So to me, not only is the pointer technically superior and more responsive (as this video proves), it's also more comfortable to use and more accessible. It takes less time to adapt to a pointer than analog sticks in my experience. Maybe I'm just the weird one though, as I was never able to get entirely comfortable with analog sticks in the first place :lol.

[EDIT] On topic: let's first see if the game is actually worth a damn, but I'm more inclined to believe it will suck.

 

[Aaron Strife]

It'd be interesting if Nintendo secured this as an exclusive in hopes of winning over some FPS fans to the console (established brand + nostalgia) but I doubt it, since they're probably prepping for Wii HD in a couple years and they don't really need that crowd to begin with.

 

[Lonely1]

Yeah, I know. I'm saying keep his Wiimote, PS3 owners can keep dual analogs. The d-pad part wasn't literal.

Ps3 owners are getting move.

 

[farnham]

It'd be interesting if Nintendo secured this as an exclusive in hopes of winning over some FPS fans to the console (established brand + nostalgia) but I doubt it, since they're probably prepping for Wii HD in a couple years and they don't really need that crowd to begin with.

Nintendo pretty much stated that they will not release a Wii HD but will make something totally new.

 

[boiled goose]

God's gift? No. Better than dual analog? Yes. Natal not included.

move has yet to prove its pointer abilities. I can do motion tracking better than M+, but not sure how the pointer will work since the camera is detecting a sphere. Small wrist movements might be harder to read, then again, it might be more light gun faithful

 

[AniHawk]

Ps3 owners are getting move.

and psp owners are getting peace walker, so there

 

[Haint]

I really liked Red Steel 2's controls TBH, I think it's probably the best controlling First Person game I've ever played (though it's not really a shooter). I shouldn't really comment though, cause I've only played through 2 or 3 shooters on PC, and absolutely hated every experience (old, cheap, low resolution mouse + desk not even remotely conducive to gaming = guaranteed failure).

 

[boiled goose]

The only thing I can logically think he means is that, depending on the wiimote's sensitivity, it is incredibly difficult to keep the reticule stable. This is either a good or a bad thing depending on where your skill level is.

My problem with wiimote is that the actual functionality is so varied from game to game that at best it can be called "unreliable." Actually, that's not really wiimote's fault so much as developer's fault.

I've played a sum total of... a half of a FPS... worth anything on Wii... and most of the time, the movement turn around is too slow, or the bounding box is way too large, or the aiming sensitivity is off the fucking charts ridiculous, or some other in-the-way bullshit. The absolute only thing Conduit got right was that it allowed me to fuck with all these options until I found something that approximated decent, and that took me damn near forty minutes of tinkering. And even after that, I had to deal with Conduit's abysmal gunplay and level design... so what was it for?

Which is my real problem with wiimote: for a controller that's supposed to make life easier, the only thing it's reliable at is making life more complicated. Never have I had to think about what the controller is doing more than I do for wiimote. Half the time I'm not even certain it's my fault. I have to worry about too much light, improper sensitivity, sensor bar obstructions, sensor bar placement, and all sorts of other devices that can "interrupt" the device according to Nintendo's own read out.

Number one reason I play games: to lay back and chill out. Number one reason I rarely play Wii games: because they're usually the exact opposite.

That's why I tend to avoid all FPS titles on the platform, aside from their inherent crippled nature due to Wii's horrendous online infrastructure and its limited power ruining level design, physics, A.I. and other such things.

Amirox you are correct here. I think a properly customized wiimote setup is awesome. and comes extremely extremely close to a mouse pointer. The problem is that it will take a good 30 minutes of customization to get it right. It is worth it, but not accessible at all.

A crappy wiimote pointer setup for FPS is unplayable.

Developers have also become better programmers and have addressed things like what happens when the wiimote loses track of the sensor bar, etc. From red steel 1 to red steel 2 you can pretty much track the progress of wiimote control. from glitchy screen spinning chaos to motion+ assisted off screen pointing and full customization.

Another example of the superiority of the pointer was RE4 wii edition. Even capcom commented that the pointer made the game way too easy.

A properly designed pointer system will hopefully be used by all manufacturers in the future. If it is properly programmed, it can be more accessible than dual analogue since most people today know how pointers work. eventually i am guessing you wont have to be facing the screen at all, which would eliminate the only advantage of traditional gamepads.

I'm simply more comfortable controlling with my thumb than wrist.

Maybe we will see thumb pointers in the future. sticks simply have to go. they are simply an inferior input method for aiming. ( they were designed for analogue movement and that is what they do best)

 

[trinest]

I bought the EA Goldeneye on GC- it was alright.
I'll buy this Activision one as well.

I think it will mimic for the most part what games like The Conduit have done.

 

[TheSeks]

edit: beaten like daniel craig's scrotum

Not sure if want video...

I bought the EA Goldeneye on GC- it was alright.

No it wasn't. :/ The only good Bond game from EA was Everything or Nothing (and From Russia with Love, but that's debatable)

 

[EmCeeGramr]

i think you guys are all forgetting one thing

it's a game, on the wii

and it comes with a useless piece of plastic


it has a chance