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[CrunchinJelly]

The thing is, they will reach their goal. They know they will because they have a rabid fanbase who will throw them money when asked, even if they get nothing in return.

Well, it worked for Double Fine

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

What they have now is them working for their money, I'm not discounting that at all. Attracting advertisers, selling merchandising, etc. shows real work and effort. Asking for handouts because they don't want to put in the effort to find advertisers, or feel they don't make enough off them, doesn't. In my eyes it shows a real lack of character.

I think you're seeing this the wrong way. I don't think they have any issue finding advertisers. Their site is very popular. They would rather give fans the option to not see those ads, which in turn gives them more time to make the content fans DO want to see (at least more of it along with the current stuff). The issue is that they need ad money to run. So if they were to give fans an ad-free experience with more generated content they would need some other revenue source. It's an experiment, and not mandatory, I see no harm in it.

 

[shawnlreed]

This is what Giant Bomb should have done.

If Giant Bomb did this, I would contribute at a high dollar level.
I love their site and what they do, so whatever I can give to keep them afloat is OK with me.

With Penny Arcade, i don't think removing intrusive ads is enough of a motivator for me to chip in.

 

[2 Slice Toaster]

What they have now is them working for their money, I'm not discounting that at all. Attracting advertisers, selling merchandising, etc. shows real work and effort. Asking for handouts because they don't want to put in the effort to find advertisers, or feel they don't make enough off them, doesn't. In my eyes it shows a real lack of character.

Couldn't this "laziness" argument be applied to virtually any kickstarter project, as a lack of willingness to work hard to get your project to work financially through traditional methods of funding?

 

[Takamura-San]

Question: in what way ads are a more "legit" way to pay for you company that letting your users do it.

One has more strings attached than the other.

You need page clicks, and many other metrics to keep and add ad revenue.

This kickstarter is just asking for a lump some, with the promise of some rewards.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Apparently all everyone at Penny Arcade does all day is searches high and low for the rare and much sought-after advertisers. If this project is funded, they will never have to work ever and just sit on their asses all day!

Only you can stop this kickstarter, which is purely a retirement fund for everybody at Penny Arcade, who just spend their 9-5 looking for advertisers for their website and should be forced to do so to earn their money because there is nothing else of value at all on Penny Arcade's site and their entire fanbase is built on Gabe and Tycho's ability to spend a full honest day's work of finding advertisers.

 

[Kintaro]

Can't tell if this is a joke?

My exact reaction.

 

[The Technomancer]

Their business is profitable. They don't need this money. They make this very clear.

I think that's why people have a problem with it.

 

[Row]

Most kickstarter monies go to pay the salaries of the people creating the content; nothing unusual in that regard. How is direct fan funding somehow illegitimate in your world? And how will they no longer be working? Is the site going to stop producing content because they were funded? If somehow that happened then you might have a point

Your argument sounds more like you have an extraordinarily narrow definition of what Kickstarter is allowed to be used for and anything that stretches that definition causes you an excessive amount of anguish. If anything this is far more reliable than any other Kickstarter in terms of having clearly defined results with no potential to not deliver.

I have no interest in paying myself but individuals like you need to stop trying to pigeonhole crowdsourcing into only things you want it to be. Expand your mind a bit.

Yes, but it's a bit different when it's funding the salaries of people working on a very specific project vs. paying the salaries for people doing the same thing they always have.

What I mean by doing this to work less is they no longer have to attract sponsors, that takes a lot of time, effort, and management. It's hard work, while making a kickstarter asking people for money isn't.

And if "expanding my mind" is thinking it's cool for companies to expect people to pay their salaries just because I think I'll pass. By your logic and that of many others itt you'd be ok with any company, whether it be PA, activision, apple, atc. trying to pull the same thing.

 

[Plissken]

So, if people give them a million dollars, we won't see ads for a year. What else? Are we going to see 5 comics a week instead of 3? Are we going to get more of their "experimental" work like Twisp and Catsby or Cardboard Tube Samurai? Maybe it wouldn't feel like such a joke if they actually had their stretch goals explained, and if their "reward" tiers weren't so terrible. As it is right now, it just looks like a couple of rich internet dudes asking for money from fans, so they don't have to ask for money from advertisers. I for one won't be donating to this Kickstarter, but it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Acosta]

One has more strings attached than the other.

You need page clicks, and many other metrics to keep and add ad revenue.

This kickstarter is just asking for a lump some, with the promise of some rewards.

Strings attached to what? and in what way that benefits me as a user of their page?

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

I think that's why people have a problem with it.

From what I can tell, though, losing the ad money would hurt them quite a bit. Thus why they do this and not just cut ads for free.

I'd agree that a sub model would be better, but I don't take issue with trying this.

 

[FStop7]

I'm not at all on board the hate train, but I'm very reluctant to support this, and here is my reason why:

Kickstarter is about providing crowd sourced funding to projects that can't get off the ground by themselves. The Double Fine game, for example: they went to multiple publishers and despite their reputation, they were turned down repeatedly. So they turned to the audience.

But in this case, Penny Arcade -is- off the ground. Tremendously so. They get a huge amount of traffic, a ton of advertising, they run two conventions (soon a third for devs), and a successful charity.

Their word can direct a virutal Eye of Sauron toward you in the form of either praise or ridicule. That's even evidenced by the fact that they place a value of $500 per retweet.

They have tons of influence at their command. They're in the Time 100.

They're not struggling to get their project off the ground. They're already at 30,000 feet. To me this is the antithesis of what Kickstarter is about.

 

[Auto_aim1]

I don't see anything wrong with this. The site has good traffic, so it's not like they need the money or anything. If the Kickstarter fails (which it won't, I'm sure), they will continue as usual.

But they could have just added a donate button on the site which would have accomplished the same thing.

 

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

The more popular PA becomes, the more expensive their adspace is.

The more people make it ad-free, assuming the content improves or stays level, the more popular the site is...

Making their adspace even more valued...increasing costs of the yearly Kickstarters...

Oh my!

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't see anything wrong with this. The site has good traffic, so it's not like they need the money or anything. If the Kickstarter fails (which it won't, I'm sure), they will continue as usual.

But they could have just added a donate button on the site which would have accomplished the same thing.

Yeah, I think the vast majority of people who have a problem with this don't have a problem with the idea itself, they have a problem with PA using Kickstarter to enable it.

 

[notworksafe]

But they could have just added a donate button on the site which would have accomplished the same thing.

If this gets funded, expect that next year. They won't want to give a cut to Kickstarter and Amazon next time.

 

[Takamura-San]

Strings attached to what? and in what way that benefits me as a user of their page?

Keeping the Ad people happy. Making sure you get the clicks they want.

And is not meant to give you any benefits, because the user is not paying with money only their eyes. If you rather pay cash money, than to see an Add then more power to you.

 

[Dark Octave]

This is pretty much Kickstarter abuse.

This sort of thing is not what or who Kickstarter was intended.

But the guys who made Kickstarter approved it so who am I to say.

 

[Row]

Couldn't this "laziness" argument be applied to virtually any kickstarter project, as a lack of willingness to work hard to get your project to work financially through traditional methods of funding?

I don't think you could honestly compare the two, this is very different from niche or obscure kickstarter projects. PA is already a well established site with a big fanbase, they don't need to do this, it just seems greedy and lazy. Then take into account what the purpose of this is, and yea, not even close.

 

[FStop7]

I don't see anything wrong with this. The site has good traffic, so it's not like they need the money or anything. If the Kickstarter fails (which it won't, I'm sure), they will continue as usual.

But they could have just added a donate button on the site which would have accomplished the same thing.

They had a donate button for years. They took it down one day around 2005 and said they simply don't need the donations any more and that they're more than self sufficient.

This is pretty much Kickstarter abuse.

This sort of thing is not what or who Kickstarter was intended.

But the guys who made Kickstarter approved it so who am I to say.

For me KS was pretty much over the minute that Tom Chick thing got funded.

 

[Tain]

It's more money than I would have guessed, sure, but this doesn't even come close to bothering me.

And they are not guilting people in the slightest. Any gut reaction you feel that makes you contribute to any old kickstarter project is your own issue.

 

[GamerVoice]

This is pretty much Kickstarter abuse.

This sort of thing is not what or who Kickstarter was intended.

But the guys who made Kickstarter approved it so who am I to say.

Well think of the cash Kickstarter is going to get.

Sure, the site has no integrity, but they're gonna get some nice change.

 

[inky]

Well, it worked for Double Fine

I think the circumstances were different then. DF as a mid size game studio is in a whole different position within the industry than PA is within theirs.

*snip*

Pretty much what I think of this. Not that I suddenly hate them or anything, I just think they are taking advantage of the position they are in instead of making proper use of crowdfunding. (which honesty, they don't really need).

Double Fine asked for money to fund a specific project that they could not get any publishers to support. That's a far cry from asking for the day to day operations of the whole company to be supported.

I agree.

 

[FStop7]

I think the circumstances were different then. DF as a mid size game studio is in a whole shakier position within the industry than PA is within theirs.

Double Fine asked for money to fund a specific project that they could not get any publishers to support. That's a far cry from asking for the day to day operations of the whole company to be supported.

 

[Row]

This is pretty much Kickstarter abuse.

This sort of thing is not what or who Kickstarter was intended.

But the guys who made Kickstarter approved it so who am I to say.

Given some of the "projects" they approve it's clear they only care about making money and any semblance of having principals is long gone

 

[Clevinger]

Well, it worked for Double Fine

Except for Double Fine and Obsidian, those projects are less likely (with Obsidian, completely unlikely) to see the light of day without fan support.

 

[RPGCrazied]

This Kickstarter thing is getting a bit ridiculous. I was ok with Wasteland 2 and a bunch of other cool games, but this is just silly.

Tell me about it. Has anything actually been finished yet? I can't think of one project that is done.

 

[erragal]

Yes, but it's a bit different when it's funding the salaries of people working on a very specific project vs. paying the salaries for people doing the same thing they always have.

What I mean by doing this to wok less is they no longer have to attract sponsors, that takes a lot of time, effort, and management. It's had work, while making a kickstarter asking people for money isn't.

And if "expanding my mind" is thinking it's cool for companies to expect people to pay their salaries just because I think I'll pass. By you logic and that of many others itt you'd be ok with any company, whether it be PA, activision, apple, atc. trying to pull the same thing.

Your second statement just made their argument for them. You, as someone who clearly doesn't like this, have admitted its hard work to deal with funding things via advertising. Logically that leads one to believe that if the work isn't being done there anymore it will be done -somewhere-. Unless you've jumped straight to "once they have all your money they're going to slack off" you clearly realize the raw content output of the site will increase if the Kickstarter is successful. So they're basically asking their core audience if its worth the price to them collectively to remove advertising and open up more avenues for content output. How exactly is that lazy?

Once again your first point is still pigeonholing Kickstarter as only being for what you decide it's for. And I don't necessarily have a problem with any company attempting crowdsourcing as a funding model... in fact it's a far superior and more transparent method of capitalism to the one we're currently letting the world be run into the ground by. At least with crowdsourcing you have to be transparent with your consumers or you risk alienating future potential investors... in the traditional venture capital/publisher model the people who have influence on your product are motivated purely by growth... maintaining existing profitability/status quo isn't sufficient so you end up regressing to the mean in search of peak profit. Creative content is meant to be niche and specific to tastes...there shoudlnt be any such thing as 'mainstream'

So yes I adore crowdsourcing.

 

[JABEE]

If having advertisements on their site is limiting their personal output, maybe they should take some money from their own personal wealth to pay for the site rather than taking donations. I hope people see this campaign for what it is. It's a manipulation of Penny Arcade's fan base.

The only value that the people who donate to this privately owned media and merchandising empire is Penny Arcade no longer needing to be beholden to their corporate partners. This suggests that they were being greatly influences before. Will they still do contract work for Ubisoft? Why can't they use the money they make off of getting in bed with Ubisoft to pay for them to run an ad free site. I'd also like to see if PA would mind releasing an income statement before asking for donations.

 

[Koomaster]

So what's the limit on Kickstarters? Can anyone create one for any purpose? I would like money so I can go live with my boyfriend in Canada while still providing for my mom in the states - can I get that kickstarted?

 

[El Sloth]

Tell me about it. Has anything actually been finished yet? I can't think of one project that is done.

FTL

 

[megalowho]

Their word can direct virutal Eye of Sauron toward you in the form of either praise or ridicule. That's even evidenced by the fact that they place a value of $500 per retweet.

For some reason this one sticks out to me. There's already a business that accomodates this for people with lots of followers, and it's incredibly shady: http://sponsoredtweets.com/tweeters/

Granted you could pay them $500 to RT nonsense but they're basically selling ad space on their Twitter accounts instead of on their site. Which seems antithesis to the whole 'no ads' thing they're shooting for as an end result.

 

[NervousXtian]

If having advertisements on their site is limiting their personal output, maybe they should take some money from their own personal wealth to pay for the site rather than taking donations. I hope people see this campaign for what it is. It's a manipulation of Penny Arcade's fan base.

The only value that the people who donate to this privately owned media and merchandising empire is Penny Arcade no longer needing to be beholden to their corporate partners. This suggests that they were being greatly influences before. Will they still do contract work for Ubisoft? Why can't they use the money they make off of getting in bed with Ubisoft to pay for them to run an ad free site. I'd also like to see if PA would mind releasing an income statement before asking for donations.

Because giving up all that ad-revenue with out replacing it with other revenue is stupid?

Here, quit your job. No longer beholden to your employer!

Now figure out how to pay rent.

Seriously, people can't be this stupid.

 

[Mxrz]

It started off funny enough, but those 'rewards' of having them follow you on twitter, and the other "I'm so famous!" stuff screams of douchebaggery. They used to mock people like that.

Any chance this is a joke on their part?

 

[bumpkin]

For $10k you get lunch with them, but have to pay all of the travel and housing costs? Well then.

 

[Diprosalic]

you guys really think they are greedy? they shut ads down if people pay, they just exchange the source where the money comes from. they regularly promote other kickstarters, other webcomics, other projects and have a huge charity.

they don't beg. they don't lockout stuff if you don't pay, they're fine with people not paying.


some of you sure are hateful and bitter.

 

[notworksafe]

Given some of the "projects" they approve it's clear they only care about making money and any semblance of having principals is long gone

Every business has only one real principle: make money. The rest is fluid.

 

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

you guys really think they are greedy? they shut ads down if people pay, they just exchange the source where the money comes from. they regularly promote other kickstarters, other webcomics, other projects and have a huge charity.

they don't beg. they don't lockout stuff if you don't pay, they're fine with people not paying.


some of you sure are hateful and bitter.

I know that you feel like you're on their "team" but let me assure you there is no team. You'll need to stop riding that banana sometime. You're just a dollar sign. And yes, people do really think they are that greedy - $500 to RT something as advertising? It is an exchange, sure...

 

[Mudkips]

It started off funny enough, but those 'rewards' of having them follow your on twitter screams of douchebaggery. They used to mock people like that.

Any change this is a joke on their part?

No chance. They pretty much are douchebags now. Over the past decade or so it's been really depressing watching them gradually turn into the people they hated.

 

[toythatkills]

So what's the limit on Kickstarters? Can anyone create one for any purpose? I would like money so I can go live with my boyfriend in Canada while still providing for my mom in the states - can I get that kickstarted?

Only if you have wacky rewards

 

[Diprosalic]

I know that you feel like you're on their "team" but let me assure you there is no team. You'll need to stop riding that banana sometime. You're just a dollar sign. And yes, people do really think they are that greedy - $500 to RT something as advertising? It is an exchange, sure...

besides the fact that $500 to get a RT from those guys with a huge ass fanbase is a pretty damn good price. i'm not on their team, i'm not even a huge fan. but their approach to run a business is one of the best i've ever seen. do they want to make money? yes, everbody does. but they really give a damn about their fans and i truly believe that. they run the charity to save some taxes am i right?

 

[Kintaro]

So, what exactly is PA kickstarting? They aren't a start up, they don't need any help, and hey aren't in financial distress. Hell, I bet all of their fans use adblock so they probably thought "ads?"

How do you kickstart something that's been around quite a long time, has their own convention, videogames and books?

 

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

but they really give a damn about their fans and i truly believe that.

I believe you have been tricked.

 

[Woody Invincible]

This just comes off as mightily douchey.

 

[El Sloth]

So what's the limit on Kickstarters? Can anyone create one for any purpose? I would like money so I can go live with my boyfriend in Canada while still providing for my mom in the states - can I get that kickstarted?

You can try. The Kickstarter people will reject it because it doesn't fit their criteria of "creative" work. It's why they don't allow things like scientific research projects. You get things like http://www.petridish.org/ and http://scifundchallenge.org/ for that.

Maybe you should try on IndieGoGo.

 

[Diprosalic]

I believe you have been tricked.

oh yes, they are truly evil corporation bastards and want to suck me dry. sure.

 

[Row]

you guys really think they are greedy? they shut ads down if people pay, they just exchange the source where the money comes from. they regularly promote other kickstarters, other webcomics, other projects and have a huge charity.

they don't beg. they don't lockout stuff if you don't pay, they're fine with people not paying.


some of you sure are hateful and bitter.

Of course it's greedy, they're using their fanbase as any easy way to get out of having to deal with earning money honestly, and will probably make much more in the process. How does them promoting other kickstarters and such diminish that?

And yes they're begging, they made a kickstarter in which there's nothing to kickstart. There's no real specific project, it is basically just asking for free money.

 

[Lancehead]

The only issue I see with this is that this isn't really a creative project, which is what Kickstarter is there for to help with.

 

[woxel1]

So what's the limit on Kickstarters? Can anyone create one for any purpose? I would like money so I can go live with my boyfriend in Canada while still providing for my mom in the states - can I get that kickstarted?

No, one of the rules of Kickstarter is that it can't "fund your life," which makes the whole Kickstarter odd because its ultimate goal is to replace the source of money that "paid for rent, wages, health insurance, utilities, all the normal stuff that you pay for when you have fourteen souls working together."

I think making websites ad-free is a perfectly valid artistic endeavor; I just wish their prizes were more tangible. Couldn't they have bothered to throw in a couple of their books, or create something new for the under $100 donation crowd? They're supposed to be Kickstarter rewards, not leftovers.