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Perfect Dark’s Game Director leaves The Initiative

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tmlDan

Member
But The Initiative doesn't have indie ambitions, and it's not the reason for which they were formed. They are a creative fireteam that comes up with a game idea, a vision, and then gets a partner to execute on it. I certainly wouldn't want Microsoft taking any of their other internal studios off existing projects to work on The Initiatives right now, so they went and got a top tier external partner in Crystal Dynamics who just so happens to be the best reboot developer in the business right now.

Microsoft did nothing wrong here. They brought talent together, and then gave that talent the freedom to build their team and decide what they want to work on. But amidst a global pandemic, a very competitive gaming landscape, and cinematic AAA ambitions they simply don't have a large enough team to actually build the game. So you're going to want a partner. Many roles that The Initiative in this early stage didn't have filled, Crystal Dynamics fixes all that.
You really fell for the PR bull that they followed up with because they had dev trouble.

The collaboration with CD did not happen in year one of the studios development, the initial announcement was a new studio making Triple A high quality games - not a "creative fireteam" or w/e tf that means.

The pandemic is an excuse, yes talent is difficult to come by, but if they had their shit together they wouldn't have lost 50% or more of their initial employees, and most of them recently, if they paid them well and fueled creative freedom.
 
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I never said they are doing terrible, Forza horizon 5 and flight simulator were two of my top 5 games of the year last year. And their backward compatibility offerings are unmatched in the console space. But they clearly need to improve their consistency of game output, and they’ve had multiple games at this point that have been mismanaged to the point of launching unfinished, or in the worst case, gotten cancelled
If I'm a fan of racing Sims and flight Sims I probably would be all Xbox (I have a PC) I think the problem is the general public seems those as niche genres. I like sim shooters (why I went to PC) When I look at MSoft and most American company acquisitions they tend to fail and get rid of employees and the branch company tends to always get worse especially MSoft companies.

The reason why I mentioned GamePass is because I remember hearing David Jaffe explain Sony studio incentives and how they changed the incentives to get paid 3 years after a game releases so Sony could retain talent because apparently if a game sales go over profit which most of their big titles do apparently they get paid so much that employees stop working for years. Well I don't think GamePass makes profits so how good are Microsofts pay outs to keep good developers if you keep pushing people away from buying games?

Notice how Sony bought Bungie they paid out extra to keep employees.
 

FritzJ92

Member
If I'm a fan of racing Sims and flight Sims I probably would be all Xbox (I have a PC) I think the problem is the general public seems those as niche genres. I like sim shooters (why I went to PC) When I look at MSoft and most American company acquisitions they tend to fail and get rid of employees and the branch company tends to always get worse especially MSoft companies.

The reason why I mentioned GamePass is because I remember hearing David Jaffe explain Sony studio incentives and how they changed the incentives to get paid 3 years after a game releases so Sony could retain talent because apparently if a game sales go over profit which most of their big titles do apparently they get paid so much that employees stop working for years. Well I don't think GamePass makes profits so how good are Microsofts pay outs to keep good developers if you keep pushing people away from buying games?

Notice how Sony bought Bungie they paid out extra to keep employees.
Crazy because compensation has never been a discusión regarding ANYONE that has left Microsoft.
 

oldergamer

Member
You really fell for the PR bull that they followed up with because they had dev trouble.

The collaboration with CD did not happen in year one of the studios development, the initial announcement was a new studio making Triple A high quality games - not a "creative fireteam" or w/e tf that means.

The pandemic is an excuse, yes talent is difficult to come by, but if they had their shit together they wouldn't have lost 50% or more of their initial employees, and most of them recently, if they paid them well and fueled creative freedom.
Well here's a hint. Its in the studio name. From the start they were claiming to develop games in a different way. I can't recall where it was written, but there was something posted about them being an idea/incubation studio a few years back. They basic idea that I heard was they would do all pre production in house, then hand it off before starting the next game. They did internally build a vertical slices of all the levels, prototyped combat & gameplay loop, wrote the story and dialog. They do need a really large dev team for the game they planned. The CD announcement seemed to coincide with the start of people leaving the studio.

I would say if we see the studio head leaving, the developer is not going to survive. He is still there. Interesting that the "contact us" on the website just goes to a bing web page. Its a super barebones website
 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Shit fails, it’s the way things go sometimes. It’s just not what microsoft need right now, they need to be able to nurture great studios. Obviously, throwing money at the so called best in the biz and poaching shit loads of staff doesn’t guarantee that it will all work. hopefully, the staff who ms hired had a good experience and moved on with a fat pay cheque And importantly hopefully, MS also have learnt a lot.

i Don’t know how this has gone but it doesn’t look great overall. I just hope the game turns out great,

microsoft, please don’t show games until they are at most a year out.
 
Crazy because compensation has never been a discusión regarding ANYONE that has left Microsoft.
I dont know how Microsoft works, I have worked with a girl who is a lighting compositer and she told me her dream was to work at Naughty Dog apparently Sony pays amazing I also know the theme for the game ND is working on outside of factions and TLOU remake.

Money will make you stay with a toxic company which I figure most companies are so I wouldn't be surprised if this was a major issue despite employees statements of leaving a company.

I wouldn't be surprised if GamePass ends up hurting the quality of Xbox studio games but I don't actually know.
 
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Papacheeks

Banned
Shit fails, it’s the way things go sometimes. It’s just not what microsoft need right now, they need to be able to nurture great studios. Obviously, throwing money at the so called best in the biz and poaching shit loads of staff doesn’t guarantee that it will all work. hopefully, the staff who ms hired had a good experience and moved on with a fat pay cheque And importantly hopefully, MS also have learnt a lot.

i Don’t know how this has gone but it doesn’t look great overall. I just hope the game turns out great,

microsoft, please don’t show games until they are at most a year out.

I think the bigger talking point has always been specifically to recent Hoeg Law episode is, whats the after math look like as time goes on in the industry? VGC article kind of touched on it about work force currently in a ramped up industry that is starving for senior staff as companies/publishers/Developers are getting bought up.
As the industry condenses, means the studios/publishers left need that high senior talent to stay relevant. Time is not on your side trying to elevate someone from a low end position to a Lead animator.

Thats why promoting from within is such a must.
And why getting teams to work well is also a must. If not one of the main things that needs to happen.
I'll reiterate a little from my previous post, the only time I've seen newly created studios do well is when the company creating said new studio usually plants leads/or essential teams from a studio they already operate/own.

Like the Spin off developer Sony had and is having issues with in San Diego were ex people from other Sony studios. Or at least some of higher studio heads.
And even that group floundered. But they can work on other things/projects because a lot of them had worked with one another from previous projects. Which is what SOny did after their project they were originally tasked with kind of went no where.
 
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tmlDan

Member
Well here's a hint. Its in the studio name. From the start they were claiming to develop games in a different way. I can't recall where it was written, but there was something posted about them being an idea/incubation studio a few years back. They basic idea that I heard was they would do all pre production in house, then hand it off before starting the next game. They did internally build a vertical slices of all the levels, prototyped combat & gameplay loop, wrote the story and dialog. They do need a really large dev team for the game they planned. The CD announcement seemed to coincide with the start of people leaving the studio.

I would say if we see the studio head leaving, the developer is not going to survive. He is still there. Interesting that the "contact us" on the website just goes to a bing web page. Its a super barebones website
Just because they named it that doesn't mean that it was a hint at what they were trying to do, the initial PR statement stands and it was a new studio to compete with the likes of ND full of top end talent.

You can twist it any way you want but that's just a fact.

You could be right, but the studio head may well be the primary problem and MS should be looking into this more than from what they, presumably, have been doing - which is nothing. I'm sure they will now with this news public but what has been happening the past 4 years, the game should be near completion next year, especially since MS had the audacity to announce it so early.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Shit fails, it’s the way things go sometimes. It’s just not what microsoft need right now, they need to be able to nurture great studios. Obviously, throwing money at the so called best in the biz and poaching shit loads of staff doesn’t guarantee that it will all work. hopefully, the staff who ms hired had a good experience and moved on with a fat pay cheque And importantly hopefully, MS also have learnt a lot.

i Don’t know how this has gone but it doesn’t look great overall. I just hope the game turns out great,

microsoft, please don’t show games until they are at most a year out.
I agree with what you're saying here. Question though, how long does Microsoft get to "learn"? This nonsense has been going on for almost ten years now. And the apologists keep saying "it takes time," "they need 2-3 more years." When does this stop? Again I am not a Sony person at all, but in 95 they launched their first console and cleaned Nintendo's clock. There wasn't this two generations of fumbling around. You either know how to execute or you don't. We keep waiting for MS to deliver great games (I think retreads like Halo/Forza/Gears just do not count. They don't change enough and Halo Infinite is incredibly disappointing to me, I probably won't even finish it), and yeah ... they have gone out and spent more money than anyone in the history of the world has on tech acquisitions and ... what are we getting for it?

Meanwhile the competition just keeps releasing games and more games. The latest Nintendo Direct just had way more than I could even get to because of time limits. They have too many games. On the Sony side we just got Horizon FW, and GT7 less than a month apart. And this was after what we got in 2021 with fresh games like Returnal. An absolute masterpiece that was exclusive. I dunno. I know MS will have Starfield this year, and God of War comes later for Sony. I'm much more interested in Starfield out of those two but that doesn't really feel like an "MS game" even though it basically as at this point. It's just a giant poop show still IMO. Xbox fans should be mad as hell, not trying to defend MS at every turn, saying everything is awesome. If you like something shouldn't you hold it to some kind of standard? Being a sycophant just makes a person look silly, it doesn't convince thinking people to change their minds.

Nah. Why you say that. I'm being honest. How can this happen at Microsoft? Especially at a time like this.
Microsoft is "A" software company yes, but I would hardly classify them as "THE" software company within the software engineering world. DX12 is an API yeah, but there are several graphics APIs, and DX12 isn't the hottest thing around or anything, it's just the defacto API for the largest personal computer OS around. That's why it's "big." That's one reason that old Greenberg quote about "We have DirectX, do you think we are going to give up 50% graphics performance?" or whatever similar words he used, was such a joke. Like their own heads don't understand their products/tech. Yeah, Aaron, you did give up that performance.

Microsoft does not attract the top talent at all, and I certainly wouldn't hold them on some kind of pedestal. I know a lot of people on this board won't like that, but the industry is what it is. Think about it. Maybe you're not familiar with the tech world but if you could go anywhere you wanted, would you go to Microsoft? To work on Office? Or Windows? Or Xbox? These are basically "old" product lines and the top people out there, generally, like to work on new ideas and solve new problems. Not trying to dunk on them, yeah they make a lot of cash, but that is basically because they are standard platforms for business. So, they are an entrenched company, and they will be around for a long time but their glory days were the 90s and, barring some kind of Apple like revival, those glory days won't return. So yeah, the reason this sort of thing can happen at MS (and within the Xbox division) is because this is how it's been going for the last decade for them. Which is why I continually say buying things will not solve any of that. The fish stinks from the head as they say. Without a change in management and leadership, it's just going to continue on, and on, and on.
 
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You’re contradicting yourself with these 2 paragraphs.

I may have read it wrong, but when the studio was first announced I thought it was a standard studio (which would obviously need to expand rapidly).

All of this ‘they are just a team that has an idea but need help to execute’ sounds completely reactive IMO and is revisionism. Crystal Dynamics doing the heavy lifting and having their own leads just makes The Initiative redundant in this project.

Nah, there's nothing contradictory about it. Nothing has changed about their ambitions as a developer. They were created to make the biggest and most ambitious possible games for Xbox. However, their team isn't large enough to do that entirely on their own yet, but they apparently have an idea with a perfect dark reboot they would like to do SOONER rather than 10-12 years from now. How are they to accomplish that when despite all the large number of jobs they've put out there, they just haven't grown quite enough at a fast enough pace to be able to do so. And taking existing or new Microsoft internal studios off their own projects isn't practical.

So Microsoft went and got a partner for Initiative. Not just ANY partner, the PERFECT partner, the very team I've said for years I hoped WOULD join The Initiative because of their history with head of The Initiative, who use to be the head of Crystal Dynamics. It's a match made in heaven. Some of the Initiative team seem to not like that, and maybe wanted all the glory or attention on themselves, and now likely hate that Crystal Dynamics will soak up all the oxygen and get the lion share of the credit for the game that's produced, but it is what it is. The Initiative isn't big enough to take on development of this scale by themselves yet.

Their ambitions have not changed. It's just they haven't grown enough to meet their ambitions without a big co development partner like Crystal Dynamics yet.


That may be true now, but that certainly wasn't the sentiment when the studio opened. Nobody forgets about this "we want to make AAAA games" rhetoric.


And they aren't saying anything different. They're still out to make a cinematic, ambitious AAA story experience based on the Perfect Dark IP. But if they aren't large enough by themselves to do it, and they want to get on with a major game now. I'm okay with that. Maybe when The Initiative is able to do it all on their own, great, but if they aren't, I'd still like Perfect Dark development to get a move on.

And if they decide that The Initiative is no longer necessary and they by some stroke of luck can buy Crystal Dynamics? Then I say, make that your team and then just merge what's inside The Initiative with them.
 

Dr Bass

Member
Nah, there's nothing contradictory about it. Nothing has changed about their ambitions as a developer. They were created to make the biggest and most ambitious possible games for Xbox. However, their team isn't large enough to do that entirely on their own yet, but they apparently have an idea with a perfect dark reboot they would like to do SOONER rather than 10-12 years from now. How are they to accomplish that when despite all the large number of jobs they've put out there, they just haven't grown quite enough at a fast enough pace to be able to do so. And taking existing or new Microsoft internal studios off their own projects isn't practical.

So Microsoft went and got a partner for Initiative. Not just ANY partner, the PERFECT partner, the very team I've said for years I hoped WOULD join The Initiative because of their history with head of The Initiative, who use to be the head of Crystal Dynamics. It's a match made in heaven. Some of the Initiative team seem to not like that, and maybe wanted all the glory or attention on themselves, and now likely hate that Crystal Dynamics will soak up all the oxygen and get the lion share of the credit for the game that's produced, but it is what it is. The Initiative isn't big enough to take on development of this scale by themselves yet.

Their ambitions have not changed. It's just they haven't grown enough to meet their ambitions without a big co development partner like Crystal Dynamics yet.





And they aren't saying anything different. They're still out to make a cinematic, ambitious AAA story experience based on the Perfect Dark IP. But if they aren't large enough by themselves to do it, and they want to get on with a major game now. I'm okay with that. Maybe when The Initiative is able to do it all on their own, great, but if they aren't, I'd still like Perfect Dark development to get a move on.

And if they decide that The Initiative is no longer necessary and they by some stroke of luck can buy Crystal Dynamics? Then I say, make that your team and then just merge what's inside The Initiative with them.
This post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about on so many levels.

Not only could The Initiative not attract enough people to the company (again, a Microsoft subsidiary), they lost most of the top talent they had hired over a short time span.

And of course this guy is now calling their setup a "match made in heaven."

I also like how you're talking about time spans of of 10-12 years, like that's an alternative acceptable time frame for anything of this nature. I would hope they would like to release a game sooner rather than perhaps 2 more console generations from now. How much cash can these studios burn in salaries and expenses before they are expected to release a product?

Seriously, are some of you absolutely crazy?
 

Papacheeks

Banned
This post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about on so many levels.

Not only could The Initiative not attract enough people to the company (again, a Microsoft subsidiary), they lost most of the top talent they had hired over a short time span.

And of course this guy is now calling their setup a "match made in heaven."

I also like how you're talking about time spans of of 10-12 years, like that's an alternative acceptable time frame for anything of this nature. I would hope they would like to release a game sooner rather than perhaps 2 more console generations from now. How much cash can these studios burn in salaries and expenses before they are expected to release a product?

Seriously, are some of you absolutely crazy?

In the words of R.Kelly ....define....crazy?
 

Dr Bass

Member
You’re contradicting yourself with these 2 paragraphs.

I may have read it wrong, but when the studio was first announced I thought it was a standard studio (which would obviously need to expand rapidly).

All of this ‘they are just a team that has an idea but need help to execute’ sounds completely reactive IMO and is revisionism. Crystal Dynamics doing the heavy lifting and having their own leads just makes The Initiative redundant in this project.
You're absolutely right. The Initiative was never described as a creative game incubator that hands off games to "partners." It was supposed to be the hot new all star game development studio.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Again I am not a Sony person at all, but in 95 they launched their first console and cleaned Nintendo's clock.
They launched a console and outspent on third parties, offered a superior storage option and coasted on third party games the entire gen. PS1 is known for Castlevania, FFVII, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro - all third party games except Gran Turismo 1 and Legend of Dragoon almost. PS2 saw a few classics, and many misses. God of War, Gran Turismo, Shadow of the Colossus. Still mostly third parties. PS3 saw the beginnings of Naughty Dog in their modern form. Sucker Punch still mid-tier. It wasn't until PS4 that they really managed to consistently put out 88+ MC average games almost every time and become a force in first party releases. That is a lot of time. MS, whether we like it or not, is starting over almost entirely from the middle / end of the Xbox One era. Playground games are one of their only studios around with history, and it shows.
 
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Something just occurred to me: if you think about it, what makes The Initiative any different from a freelance Hollywood scriptwriter?

The idea behind them is to create game design ideas and documents to then shop & sell to other developers, right? Let's assume that's the case. Well, how's that any different than a Hollywood freelance scriptwriter who shops their scripts to studios (or producers? I don't know) to be made into film projects? And if you know anything about that, more often then not those people who sell their scripts, are out of the picture once the script is sold. There's no telling when the rights are optioned by the studio to do anything with the script, and they usually end up getting script doctors who heavily rewrite the script anyway.

By the time the actual film comes about, it can be extremely different from that original script which was sold, and any accolades or criticisms are laid upon the people directly involved in the film, 99% of the time not including the random person who sold them the script in the first place. That's what The Initiative sounds like to me, but AFAIK the way the gaming industry is ran is not the same as Hollywood, even if there are similarities.

What I want to really say is, since developer studios tend to form in a way where all the game idea concepts and design work happens internally, why would any of them need a design document from an outside firm like The Initiative? Developers tend to brainstorm game concepts and design elements among their own stable of employees, right? And for studios that get picked up by publishers, I doubt publishers work with or acquire those studios unless they can, among other things, either come up with their own game ideas or work on ones that come down from the publisher.

Which really means if anything The Initiative would be the type of place that sends these design documents, game concepts/ideas to publishers, not developers. And then the publisher decides on what developers they'd want to work on the concept from there. So there's a couple ways to actually look at this news.

The first is that what's happening with the turnover is extremely alarming and signs of development hell, the game potentially being in big trouble and Crystal Dynamics coming in to save it. However, if you look at it from the perspective of The Initiative as that freelancing Hollywood scriptwriter... maybe this is just par for the course with what they were always going to do? Meaning, they were never going to actually develop the game themselves, just the concept, and they only needed but so many people for so long to scope out the concept. They are already owned by a publisher, in Microsoft, so then Microsoft goes looking for a studio to develop the concept into a full game and since Gallagher has ties to Crystal Dynamics, they work out some deal with Square-Enix so CD is the developer for Perfect Dark. Since Gallagher was already a studio head at CD, and CD has a very top-down hierarchy with the way they develop games, it just also happens to be a natural fit.

None of this changes the reality that Perfect Dark is many years away, IMHO. Again it's probably not coming before 2026. However, I am trying to see this from the other side of the coin and be optimistic/hopeful and this is the one way where it all makes sense. However it's also extremely odd because most developers in the industry, to my knowledge, don't work like this. Development studios seem to have their own self-contained creative core who can come up with game design concepts of their own, then do fuller development, and outsource chunks of stuff to support studios. Or alternatively, the ideas they work on come from publishing management, but the key point is that the vertical integration is still there.

What Microsoft and The Initiative have going on here is almost the opposite of that vertical integration in terms of the way the development pipeline would form, because I'm guessing now with CD on the game, The Initiative's role is more or less finished. Either that, or the remaining members phase into Crystal Dynamics for Perfect Dark and maybe resume their posts at The Initiative for the next game they want to build out a design scope for? Again, it seems really unusual for the games industry based on what little I know of how development works there, but if you look at Hollywood, it's actually quite common.

Other than that, the optics on this are still very bad IMO and something needs to be shown with this game soon in order to change quickly souring impressions.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
They launched a console and outspent on third parties, offered a superior storage option and coasted on third party games the entire gen. PS1 is known for Castlevania, FFVII, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro - all third party games except Gran Turismo 1 and Legend of Dragoon almost. PS2 saw a few classics, and many misses. God of War, Gran Turismo, Shadow of the Colossus. Still mostly third parties. PS3 saw the beginnings of Naughty Dog in their modern form. Sucker Punch still mid-tier. It wasn't until PS4 that they really managed to consistently put out 88+ MC average games almost every time and become a force in first party releases. That is a lot of time. MS, whether we like it or not, is starting over almost entirely from the middle / end of the Xbox One era. Playground games are one of their only studios around with history, and it shows.
PS1 had Japan Studios, Polyphony, San Mateo and likely others making first party games. So they did come out of the gate making classics, and launching classics during their very first console effort ever.

Look at the list of Sony published games through their existence. Yes a good amount of these are with third parties, but there are plenty of first party efforts. On top of that publishers are the ones responsible for driving the projects. So Sony has been doing this from the beginning.


That is a ton of software. Obviously games did not have the same scope in the PS1/PS2 era compared to now, of course. However, you just cannot deny the difference in execution excellence between the two companies.

Sony's success from the outset was a combination of friendly third party relations and killer exclusives. Again, not a Sony person at all. But I have to call it like it is.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
PS1 had Japan Studios, Polyphony, San Mateo and likely others making first party games. So they did come out of the gate making classics, and launching classics during their very first console effort ever.

Look at the list of Sony published games through their existence. Yes a good amount of these are with third parties, but there are plenty of first party efforts. On top of that publishers are the ones responsible for driving the projects. So Sony has been doing this from the beginning.


That is a ton of software. Obviously games did not have the same scope in the PS1/PS2 era compared to now, of course. However, you just cannot deny the difference in execution excellence between the two companies.

Sony's success from the outset was a combination of friendly third party relations and killer exclusives. Again, not a Sony person at all. But I have to call it like it is.
I don't think they had any killer first party games until God of War 1 and Shadow of the Colossus. Pretty much all third party stuff. Third party stuff is really not relevant in the context of this thread, which is a critique of first party studios. PS studios took a long time to get all their studios up to a level comparable with Nintendo. Took until the PS4 honestly. Gotta disagree with you on this one.
 

OmegaSupreme

advanced basic bitch
I don't think they had any killer first party games until God of War 1 and Shadow of the Colossus. Pretty much all third party stuff. Third party stuff is really not relevant in the context of this thread, which is a critique of first party studios. PS studios took a long time to get all their studios up to a level comparable with Nintendo. Took until the PS4 honestly. Gotta disagree with you on this one.
Uncharted and Last of us both came out on ps3 though. Even if you don't like those you can't deny their quality.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Uncharted and Last of us both came out on ps3 though. Even if you don't like those you can't deny their quality.
I said PS3 was the beginning of Naughty Dog in their current form. But it wasn't until PS4 that basically every Sony studio was at that level.

The shit just takes time. And unfortunately, it will never be as easy to gain project management / culture experience as it was back then. Sucker Punch could work on Sly and inFamous with mid-tier budgets and put out two trilogies before they got to the level of Ghost of Tsushima. When 1 game takes 5 years now, that will never be a possibility ever again. This is why acquisitions are happening everywhere. Nintendo has project managers and execs with experience shipping finished products since the 1970s. It takes a very long time. Guerilla put out a whole trilogy and then some. Insomniac as well.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
It was supposed to be the hot new all star game development studio.
Yeah it was, that's what all the fans were tooting and MS were insinuating. Poaching talent from top studios and all with the hooting and hollering (another one, winning) threads on this very board every time they got an ex Insomniac or ND dev.

Narratives sure are quickly changing... by the very same people.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
I don't think they had any killer first party games until God of War 1 and Shadow of the Colossus. Pretty much all third party stuff. Third party stuff is really not relevant in the context of this thread, which is a critique of first party studios. PS studios took a long time to get all their studios up to a level comparable with Nintendo. Took until the PS4 honestly. Gotta disagree with you on this one.
Did you check the link I posted? Those are first party games. When a platform holder publishes a game, that is a first party game. But to get more specific, here are numbers for the platforms when it was developed by Sony:


17 first party games on PS1. 52 on PS2. 76 on PS3. Etc.

I was working at Software Etc. selling this stuff when PS1/N64 was around. PS1 had plenty of exclusive first party software. And third party as well. And Xbox got into this around when, 2001? They have existed for most of the time that PS has. They just have no excuse. This idea that it "just takes time" like it's a decades long ramp up is just not true.

I just don't think it's a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, those are just the numbers and the facts?
 

Banjo64

cumsessed
I don't think they had any killer first party games until God of War 1 and Shadow of the Colossus. Pretty much all third party stuff. Third party stuff is really not relevant in the context of this thread, which is a critique of first party studios. PS studios took a long time to get all their studios up to a level comparable with Nintendo. Took until the PS4 honestly. Gotta disagree with you on this one.
Disagree on that one, PS3 had Uncharted 1-3, TLoU and Left Behind, God of War 3, Gran Turismo 5 and 6, Little Big Planet, Demon’s Souls (partnered with Japan Studios), Puppeteer, InFamous 1 and 2, Killzone 3. It was a really strong showing IMO, the strongest of that generation by far.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Did you check the link I posted? Those are first party games. When a platform holder publishes a game, that is a first party game.
We're talking about first party development, not publishing though.

And a lot of the PS1 publishing is because Sony straight up bought a publisher.
 
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Dr Bass

Member
We're talking about first party development, not publishing though.

And a lot of the PS1 publishing is because Sony straight up bought a publisher.
Yep, which is why I included the second link from IGN that showed the Sony developed numbers as well. 17 Sony developed first party games for PS1. 52 for PS2 and on and on. They were delivering popular games from their very first console. It's why they exploded out of the gate, they understood the value of and importance of software above all else.

Again, no excuse for Microsoft for what they are doing. They need to get their ducks in a row.
 
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adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yeah it was, that's what all the fans were tooting and MS were insinuating. Poaching talent from top studios and all with the hooting and hollering (another one, winning) threads on this very board every time they got an ex Insomniac or ND dev.

Narratives sure are quickly changing... by the very same people.

You mean to say ... that people .. are actually capable of changing opinions based on newly provided information ?

*gasp*
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
You mean to say ... that people .. are actually capable of changing opinions based on newly provided information ?

*gasp*
Water Swimming GIF by America's Funniest Home Videos
 

Lognor

Banned
I love all the cheerleaders and xbox fans are giving LOL emoji's at us sane people literally having a conversation about the state of Microsoft's management on software.

@DarkMage619 I see you being a troll like always.

Thanks for adding to my ignore list.
You're making a blanket statement about "Microsoft's management on software" due to one example? Huh? The largest software manufacturer in the world you're saying has management problems? WTF are you on? LOL
 

Hezekiah

Banned
I take this as The Initiative as a concept/dev team is pretty much non-existent. Perfect Dark will essentially be a Xbox exclusive developed by Crystal Dynamics. I wonder how much they paid Square Enix for this? Considering the outrageous price for Rise of Tomb Raider exclusivity I bet Square Enix are very happy.
Would have made more sense to get Crystal Dynamics to make Indiana Jones imo.

I just hope that game doesn't suffer from the same mismanagement from the top. Machine Games would have been mire suited to another FPS though.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Yep, which is why I included the second link from IGN that showed the Sony developed numbers as well. 17 Sony developed first party games for PS1. 52 for PS2 and on and on. They were delivering popular games from their very first console. It's why they exploded out of the gate, they understood the value of and importance of software above all else.

Again, no excuse for Microsoft for what they are doing. They need to get their ducks in a row.
52 Sony developed games on PS2? That is crazy. Is that actually true? I'd love to see that list.
 

Dr Bass

Member
What is a narrative if not a dumbfounded opinion persevering ?
I don't think people espousing certain narratives on this board truly believe them deep down, i.e. I don't think it's their true opinion. There is no way in hell people can believe some of the things that are said on this board unless they have issues or are in denial of some sort. I mean it's a tiny group of people, but they are loud and they are persistent.

You're making a blanket statement about "Microsoft's management on software" due to one example? Huh? The largest software manufacturer in the world you're saying has management problems? WTF are you on? LOL

There goes that "appeal to authority" again. Just because they are large doesn't mean they are infallible. Also I don't think they are the largest software manufacturer in the world, though I am not sure how you would entirely measure that. But Android is a bigger OS than Windows. Apple has more customers than MS and sells more devices I believe, and Apple is a software house. No company is perfect either.

52 Sony developed games on PS2? That is crazy. Is that actually true? I'd love to see that list.
Yeah I'm actually trying to find more details.

For PS1 I know Gran Turismo was a thing, and was huge when it released. People couldn't believe what they were seeing. Syphon Filter was really popular. Then they had quirky games like Vib Ribbon I believe. The nature of what they were doing was much different and the big hits, like FF7, MGS, were definitely third party. But Sony was right there too. I remember this time because I remember being mad that people wanted PS1 stuff and not N64. 🤷‍♂️

Yes ... I was once a hardcore Nintendo fanboy. 😞
 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
I said PS3 was the beginning of Naughty Dog in their current form. But it wasn't until PS4 that basically every Sony studio was at that level.

The shit just takes time. And unfortunately, it will never be as easy to gain project management / culture experience as it was back then. Sucker Punch could work on Sly and inFamous with mid-tier budgets and put out two trilogies before they got to the level of Ghost of Tsushima. When 1 game takes 5 years now, that will never be a possibility ever again. This is why acquisitions are happening everywhere. Nintendo has project managers and execs with experience shipping finished products since the 1970s. It takes a very long time. Guerilla put out a whole trilogy and then some. Insomniac as well.

The thing is, which a lot of us forget and even I have to be reminded of often is that Naughty Dog had like literally over 2100 developers including outsourcing teams at their disposal when creating a game like the Last Of Us 2 which was only a single player experience and stripped out the multiplayer. No other first party developer has the free reigns to get that kind of support. Sony literally give them a blank cheque book and it still takes them 5 to 6 years to make a game and we haven't heard anything from them about the multiplayer.

Making games is obviously hard, and as a fan of Xbox I am gutted that they seem to fail time and time again with these studios or projects that they talk up to stay in the conversation and they dont deliver. It's a disservice to the other solid games they do release because the brand suffers from the negativity. I thought the last gears was absolutely brilliant and up there with everything outside of the absolute top tier Sony titles. The Hivebusters DLC was awesome too. Forza horizon is great, and Halo after the delays was an awesome campaign but missed key features as well. The hardware and overall mission statement of the company has never been better when it comes to gaming, but the games just arent there.

If they start to deliver with strong titles in Fable, and other games then that is fine. I expect Starfield to be absolutely great but they basically bought that, its Bethesdas work. I hope they can get back to peak 360 era for solid releases.
 

Lognor

Banned
There goes that "appeal to authority" again. Just because they are large doesn't mean they are infallible. Also I don't think they are the largest software manufacturer in the world, though I am not sure how you would entirely measure that. But Android is a bigger OS than Windows. Apple has more customers than MS and sells more devices I believe, and Apple is a software house. No company is perfect either.
Of course it doesn't mean they're infallible. But he is going off of ONE story for a massive organization like Microsoft to broadly say that Microsoft has poor management. Due to one example at a studio. To paint such a broad picture you're gonna have to have a lot more than that. Maybe Xbox division has poor management? Even that seems like a stretch, again, based off of one example. It's ludicrous.

And you're really going to nitpick that Microsoft isn't the largest software manufacturer? LOL. Okay, if you want to say Apple and Google are bigger, whatever. So can Microsoft be the third biggest? In the world? Relatively speaking that's still pretty huge though, right? And you still understand that using one example to paint a picture of the entire massive organization is silly, right? Cool we're on the same page then.
 

Hezekiah

Banned
The thing is, which a lot of us forget and even I have to be reminded of often is that Naughty Dog had like literally over 2100 developers including outsourcing teams at their disposal when creating a game like the Last Of Us 2 which was only a single player experience and stripped out the multiplayer. No other first party developer has the free reigns to get that kind of support. Sony literally give them a blank cheque book and it still takes them 5 to 6 years to make a game and we haven't heard anything from them about the multiplayer.
There's actually less than three years though between the Lost Legacy and The Last of Us 2.

It's not a Halo Infinite situation where sure Halo has multiplayer, but the multiplayer was released with very little content, other game features like co-op and Forge are missing, and the game was delayed by a full year.

I hope we see something from Naughty Dog this Summer - that's what the rumours suggest, and they're a pretty well oiled machine at this point.
 

Banjo64

cumsessed
The thing is, which a lot of us forget and even I have to be reminded of often is that Naughty Dog had like literally over 2100 developers including outsourcing teams at their disposal when creating a game like the Last Of Us 2 which was only a single player experience and stripped out the multiplayer. No other first party developer has the free reigns to get that kind of support. Sony literally give them a blank cheque book and it still takes them 5 to 6 years to make a game and we haven't heard anything from them about the multiplayer.

Making games is obviously hard, and as a fan of Xbox I am gutted that they seem to fail time and time again with these studios or projects that they talk up to stay in the conversation and they dont deliver. It's a disservice to the other solid games they do release because the brand suffers from the negativity. I thought the last gears was absolutely brilliant and up there with everything outside of the absolute top tier Sony titles. The Hivebusters DLC was awesome too. Forza horizon is great, and Halo after the delays was an awesome campaign but missed key features as well. The hardware and overall mission statement of the company has never been better when it comes to gaming, but the games just arent there.

If they start to deliver with strong titles in Fable, and other games then that is fine. I expect Starfield to be absolutely great but they basically bought that, its Bethesdas work. I hope they can get back to peak 360 era for solid releases.
Same bro.

It feels like I’m constantly edging for years with Xbox. I’m getting pretty fed up of it to be honest. Halo Infinite and FH5 are good but it’s the age old fecking meme of ‘Halo, Gears, Forza’ all over again.

Ori 1 & 2 are some of the best games I’ve played in the last 10 years however they were made by Moon.

You just know with Nintendo and Sony that you will get at least 2 or 3 great first party games per year with 99% less of the bluster.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Microsoft is "A" software company yes, but I would hardly classify them as "THE" software company within the software engineering world. DX12 is an API yeah, but there are several graphics APIs, and DX12 isn't the hottest thing around or anything, it's just the defacto API for the largest personal computer OS around. That's why it's "big." That's one reason that old Greenberg quote about "We have DirectX, do you think we are going to give up 50% graphics performance?" or whatever similar words he used, was such a joke. Like their own heads don't understand their products/tech. Yeah, Aaron, you did give up that performance.

Microsoft does not attract the top talent at all, and I certainly wouldn't hold them on some kind of pedestal. I know a lot of people on this board won't like that, but the industry is what it is. Think about it. Maybe you're not familiar with the tech world but if you could go anywhere you wanted, would you go to Microsoft? To work on Office? Or Windows? Or Xbox? These are basically "old" product lines and the top people out there, generally, like to work on new ideas and solve new problems. Not trying to dunk on them, yeah they make a lot of cash, but that is basically because they are standard platforms for business. So, they are an entrenched company, and they will be around for a long time but their glory days were the 90s and, barring some kind of Apple like revival, those glory days won't return. So yeah, the reason this sort of thing can happen at MS (and within the Xbox division) is because this is how it's been going for the last decade for them. Which is why I continually say buying things will not solve any of that. The fish stinks from the head as they say. Without a change in management and leadership, it's just going to continue on, and on, and on.

Good stuff here. I never thought of it like that. I believe I've turned all those companies that MS bought, and internally I gave MS credit for creating everything those companies made. But you make a great point. MS can't just buy their way out of competition anymore.
 

MacReady13

Member
This studio was announced with lots of big words and promises. But something Microsoft doesn't seem to have learned is that shouting high from the rooftops will only bite themselves. This has proven to be the case once again with this generation.
But they have gamepass that has $8000+ worth of quality games on there, and that will only get better once their "teams" start firing on all cylinders...
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
They launched a console and outspent on third parties, offered a superior storage option and coasted on third party games the entire gen. PS1 is known for Castlevania, FFVII, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro - all third party games except Gran Turismo 1 and Legend of Dragoon almost. PS2 saw a few classics, and many misses. God of War, Gran Turismo, Shadow of the Colossus. Still mostly third parties. PS3 saw the beginnings of Naughty Dog in their modern form. Sucker Punch still mid-tier. It wasn't until PS4 that they really managed to consistently put out 88+ MC average games almost every time and become a force in first party releases. That is a lot of time. MS, whether we like it or not, is starting over almost entirely from the middle / end of the Xbox One era. Playground games are one of their only studios around with history, and it shows.

Are you sick or something? Everything I bolded from you is a straight up LIE!
 

OmegaSupreme

advanced basic bitch
I said PS3 was the beginning of Naughty Dog in their current form. But it wasn't until PS4 that basically every Sony studio was at that level.

The shit just takes time. And unfortunately, it will never be as easy to gain project management / culture experience as it was back then. Sucker Punch could work on Sly and inFamous with mid-tier budgets and put out two trilogies before they got to the level of Ghost of Tsushima. When 1 game takes 5 years now, that will never be a possibility ever again. This is why acquisitions are happening everywhere. Nintendo has project managers and execs with experience shipping finished products since the 1970s. It takes a very long time. Guerilla put out a whole trilogy and then some. Insomniac as well.
Ah. Gotcha.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Microsoft is "A" software company yes, but I would hardly classify them as "THE" software company within the software engineering world. DX12 is an API yeah, but there are several graphics APIs, and DX12 isn't the hottest thing around or anything, it's just the defacto API for the largest personal computer OS around. That's why it's "big." That's one reason that old Greenberg quote about "We have DirectX, do you think we are going to give up 50% graphics performance?" or whatever similar words he used, was such a joke. Like their own heads don't understand their products/tech. Yeah, Aaron, you did give up that performance.

Microsoft does not attract the top talent at all, and I certainly wouldn't hold them on some kind of pedestal. I know a lot of people on this board won't like that, but the industry is what it is. Think about it. Maybe you're not familiar with the tech world but if you could go anywhere you wanted, would you go to Microsoft? To work on Office? Or Windows? Or Xbox? These are basically "old" product lines and the top people out there, generally, like to work on new ideas and solve new problems. Not trying to dunk on them, yeah they make a lot of cash, but that is basically because they are standard platforms for business. So, they are an entrenched company, and they will be around for a long time but their glory days were the 90s and, barring some kind of Apple like revival, those glory days won't return. So yeah, the reason this sort of thing can happen at MS (and within the Xbox division) is because this is how it's been going for the last decade for them. Which is why I continually say buying things will not solve any of that. The fish stinks from the head as they say. Without a change in management and leadership, it's just going to continue on, and on, and on.
Good point. Comes down to what someone classifies as important. Sales? Profits? Widespread use? All totally useful metrics. But there's others too.

It's like saying is Walmart the best retailer in the world since it's giant, hires lots of people and just about everyone shops there at some point in their life? Maybe if that's the metrics they are using.

But Walmart sells average to below average stuff, mostly mainstream boring products you can get anywhere, half the time their stores are grimy, and the people working there couldnt tell you one thing about the products they sell except "I think what youre looking for is in Aisle 8". Evaluating it based on those criteria would make Walmart closer to the bottom.
 
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anothertech

Member
Gotta be honest. Xbox first party has been pissing me off since xbone era.

Was really hoping they would hit at least one out of the park for that gen. SoT was good, and flight sim great. But we never really got the Halo/Gears/Forza of the xbone gen. Still waiting I guess.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Same bro.

It feels like I’m constantly edging for years with Xbox. I’m getting pretty fed up of it to be honest. Halo Infinite and FH5 are good but it’s the age old fecking meme of ‘Halo, Gears, Forza’ all over again.

Ori 1 & 2 are some of the best games I’ve played in the last 10 years however they were made by Moon.

You just know with Nintendo and Sony that you will get at least 2 or 3 great first party games per year with 99% less of the bluster.

Yo! I never thought of it like this, but you're right. They got Halo mostly right and Forza Horizon was awesome. But it's the same cadence for 10 straight years now. It makes total sense as to why they spent $75 Billion on Bethesda, Zenimax, Activision, and Blizzard.
 
If you get proven wrong on something you just posted, shouldn't you accept some criticism if it's pointed out it was totally exaggerated and wrong?
Weird, that quote has my name on it but if you click the arrow it takes you to a post I actually wrote.

Are you replaying to me or whoever posted what you're quoting?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Gotta be honest. Xbox first party has been pissing me off since xbone era.

Was really hoping they would hit at least one out of the park for that gen. SoT was good, and flight sim great. But we never really got the Halo/Gears/Forza of the xbone gen. Still waiting I guess.

This makes me wonder why MS never tried to switch it up completely during the Xbox One generation with some different IPs from their A+ studios. Like starting with a clean slate.
 
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