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Persona Community Thread |OT4| The Golden Number

And that's fine and well and good of you, but when you're like "It's no worse then (insert basically universally revered games)" it's not fair to those games or the people who made them. Because when people play those games, they don't need "resources".

I'm not knocking your tastes or your preferences. Some of my favorite games if the past generation are very flawed works. I have a whole paragraph worth of explaining to get out upon recommending them to people.

But I don't make them out to be classics or downplay the achievements of their peers.

EP and IS are regarded as classics by many people, and were hailed that way when they came out. The widespread popularity of P3 and P4 brought on the attention from a new generation who found they weren't for them, at all.

But I've long since acknowledged they won't be widely regarded that way anymore, so I'll leave it at that. I just hope people decide for themselves rather than listening to what very vocal opponents say.
 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
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And that's fine and well and good of you, but when you're like "It's no worse then (insert basically universally revered games)" it's not fair to those games or the people who made them. Because when people play those games, they don't need "resources".

I'm not knocking your tastes or your preferences. Some of my favorite games of the past generation are very flawed works. I have a whole paragraph worth of explaining to get out upon recommending them to people.

But I don't make them out to be classics or downplay the achievements of their peers.

Ad populum.

Mainstream appeal only means only that. Just because most people are "on your side" doesn't mean he can't like something as much as or more than something else and compare the two.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Oct 16, 2012
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If you don't like some of the mechanics in P2, that's fine, but don't pretend it's objective garbage.
It's certainly not brilliant. As I've said before, combat in P2 is just... not thought out very well. There is such thing as objectively bad design and P2 has some objectively bad design. The entire premise rewards aimless trial and error through fusion spells and the most control that you ever have over the party dynamic is deciding who goes first in what order. Demon negotiation is literally never explained even close to adequately by the game and as a whole, it's a slow and entirely aggravating experience that the game forces you to do at length through the tarot cards and the absurdly high prices to most of the Personae, particularly in EP. It's not something I haven't talked about at length before.

I really wouldn't prefer to be misunderstood, because there's certainly a lot to love about P2. Rather, you could say it's a testament to how much I enjoyed the cast and the story (for the most part) that I managed to finish it in spite of how much problems I had with it as a game, but I never once looked forward to the journey versus the reward (in terms of opening up new conversations and progressing further into the story)/

In terms of the earlier SMT/Megami Ibunroku games go, Soul Hackers is by far the best in terms of being reasonably dynamic and being consistently entertaining.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
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So many newer fans seem to feel the need to trash the game, I really don't get it. Just leave it be. No one is forcing you to like it if you tried it and you don't. It's still an important part of the Persona games' history though.

Love is a two way street. The reverse works perfectly, I assure you. We've seen it in play in previous threads quite often. Much more so than newer fans doubling back to "trash" P2. I don't spend a whole hell of a lot of time discussing P2 in any fashion, really, but I talk about it with these guys because they like it and it is history.

To be fair, I'd probably be there right along with him glancing at GameFAQs every five seconds. I wouldn't play an old school JRPG without a good reason in the first place, though. Like having Persona in the title.

I just like to mess with Dan. ;)
 
It's certainly not brilliant. As I've said before, combat in P2 is just... not thought out very well. The entire premise rewards aimless trial and error through fusion spells and the most control that you ever have over the party dynamic is deciding who goes first in what order. Demon negotiation is literally never explained even close to adequately by the game and as a whole, it's a slow and entirely aggravating experience that the game forces you to do at length through the tarot cards and the absurdly high prices to most of the Personae, particularly in EP. I haven't talked about at length before.

The best way around this is having stockpiles of free tarot. By mid-late game, almost any Persona should be easily accessible by then. Make a contract, become a magical girl free tarot tycoon.

This is why a FAQ is useful. Once you know every demon's personality type, you can quickly contract with them and have tarot on tap.
 

ramyeon

Member
Dec 1, 2010
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Love is a two way street. The reverse works perfectly, I assure you. We've seen it in play in previous threads quite often. Much more so than newer fans doubling back to "trash" P2. I don't spend a whole hell of a lot of time discussing P2 in any fashion, really, but I talk about it with these guys because they like it and it is history.
Of course it is, and that's equally as silly. Thus why I'm saying each individual game has its merits and I wish the community as a whole would try to accept that instead of trying to prove that "their" Persona is better than other Personas.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
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Of course it is, and that's equally as silly. Thus why I'm saying each individual game has its merits and I wish the community as a whole would try to accept that instead of trying to prove that "their" Persona is better than other Personas.

The merits of Persona 2 have been consistently acknowledged here, as every other game.

The best way around this is having stockpiles of free tarot. By mid-late game, almost any Persona should be easily accessible by then. Make a contract, become a magical girl free tarot tycoon.

This is why a FAQ is useful. Once you know every demon's personality type, you can quickly contract with them and have tarot on tap.

Yep. You need a FAQ because it's a poorly designed video game.
 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
746
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It's certainly not brilliant. As I've said before, combat in P2 is just... not thought out very well. There is such thing as objectively bad design and P2 has some objectively bad design. The entire premise rewards aimless trial and error through fusion spells and the most control that you ever have over the party dynamic is deciding who goes first in what order. Demon negotiation is literally never explained even close to adequately by the game and as a whole, it's a slow and entirely aggravating experience that the game forces you to do at length through the tarot cards and the absurdly high prices to most of the Personae, particularly in EP. It's not something I haven't talked about at length before.

I really wouldn't prefer to be misunderstood, because there's certainly a lot to love about P2. Rather, you could say it's a testament to how much I enjoyed the cast and the story (for the most part) that I managed to finish it in spite of how much problems I had with it as a game, but I never once looked forward to the journey versus the reward (in terms of opening up new conversations and progressing further into the story)/

In terms of the earlier SMT/Megami Ibunroku games go, Soul Hackers is by far the best in terms of being reasonably dynamic and being consistently entertaining.

I disagree with this completely. There is such a thing as design that is more appealing to a wider audience but, outside of games that flat do not work, there is no such thing as objectively bad design. Just design you do not like.

Edit: The fact that Buddha, Iwakura, and myself are willing to go to bat for these games proves that. The P2 games aren't even my favorite.
 

buddha0991

Member
Nov 15, 2011
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Ballertown
.
 

Makoto Yuki

Banned
Dec 26, 2013
3,991
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Of course it is, and that's equally as silly. Thus why I'm saying each individual game has its merits and I wish the community as a whole would try to accept that instead of trying to prove that "their" Persona is better than other Personas.

Yup, I absolutely agree with you.

 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
26,542
0
0
Los Angeles
I disagree with this completely. There is such a thing as design that is more appealing to a wider audience but, outside of games that flat do not work, there is no such thing as objectively bad design. Just design you do not like.

Edit: The fact that Buddha, Iwakura, and myself are willing to go to bat for these games proves that. The P2 games aren't even my favorite.

Nope. Nope nope nope.

Objectively bad game design is totally a thing. Always has been.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Jun 9, 2010
21,892
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It's certainly not brilliant. As I've said before, combat in P2 is just... not thought out very well. There is such thing as objectively bad design and P2 has some objectively bad design. The entire premise rewards aimless trial and error through fusion spells and the most control that you ever have over the party dynamic is deciding who goes first in what order. Demon negotiation is literally never explained even close to adequately by the game and as a whole, it's a slow and entirely aggravating experience that the game forces you to do at length through the tarot cards and the absurdly high prices to most of the Personae, particularly in EP. It's not something I haven't talked about at length before.

I really wouldn't prefer to be misunderstood, because there's certainly a lot to love about P2. Rather, you could say it's a testament to how much I enjoyed the cast and the story (for the most part) that I managed to finish it in spite of how much problems I had with it as a game, but I never once looked forward to the journey versus the reward (in terms of opening up new conversations and progressing further into the story)/

In terms of the earlier SMT/Megami Ibunroku games go, Soul Hackers is by far the best in terms of being reasonably dynamic and being consistently entertaining.

Word

Playing through Soul Hackers has convinced me that P2's gameplay isn't a relic of it's time; it's just bad.
 

Squire

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Feb 6, 2011
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You're forgetting the golden rule of the internet. No matter how much something is hated, someone will like it. No matter how much something is loved, someone will hate it.

Now then, in best couple news:

This is why I told you I wasn't discussing preference. Now people are arguing game design, which is a very different topic.

Good art!
 

buddha0991

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Nov 15, 2011
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^DMC3 has amazing gameplay but it is overrated. DMC1 is the greatest DMC game and my favorite game ever made. I really wish we got a real sequel to it, but hey the CURAZAY series that came up in its place is damn good too!

Buddha pls

I love P3 ;_;

Im playing The Answer right now, Mudoon pls.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Oct 16, 2012
10,506
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0
The best way around this is having stockpiles of free tarot. By mid-late game, almost any Persona should be easily accessible by then. Make a contract, become a magical girl free tarot tycoon.

This is why a FAQ is useful. Once you know every demon's personality type, you can quickly contract with them and have tarot on tap.
This doesn't get rid of the fundamental problem with demon negotiation or grinding, though. It's still wasting your time and moreover making you feel like it.

I disagree with this completely. There is such a thing as design that is more appealing to a wider audience but, outside of games that flat do not work, there is no such thing as objectively bad design. Just design you do not like.

Edit: The fact that Buddha, Iwakura, and myself are willing to go to bat for these games proves that. The P2 games aren't even my favorite.
You're telling me Aliens: Colonial Marines is a game as well conceived and designed as Persona 4?

Relativism is dumb.
 

Daimaou

Member
Sep 18, 2011
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This doesn't get rid of the fundamental problem with demon negotiation or grinding, though. It's still wasting your time and moreover making you feel like it.


You're telling me Aliens: Colonial Marines is a game as well conceived and designed as Persona 4?

Relativism is dumb.

I disagree with this completely. There is such a thing as design that is more appealing to a wider audience but, outside of games that flat do not work, there is no such thing as objectively bad design. Just design you do not like.

Edit: The fact that Buddha, Iwakura, and myself are willing to go to bat for these games proves that. The P2 games aren't even my favorite.

.
 

BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO

Junior Member
Mar 28, 2012
10,071
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Here's something interesting if your curious, a SMT III: Nocturne Prototype, originally under the name of SMT III: Vortex.

It contains some interesting stuff.
  • Maya and Lisa 3D models and Lisa talking in a cut scene, which I;m guessing were used as prototypes for the Nocturne engine to see how it would work.
  • Lilith had more involvement in the game in some form, other than being a demon to have in party.
  • Louis Cyphre having a look more akin to SMT I and II.
  • A completely different UI interface compare to the one in game.
  • A different battle UI interface, which in included Moon phases instead of the Katsuguchi phases found in the game, a bar at the top for which I don't what it's purpose is, demons having a bigger involvement in negotiation from what it looks like. And battle taking place in what looks like nothingness.

One more thing.....
SMT wrestling has the deepest lore
Kaneko and Okada are really cool looking people.
 

Makoto Yuki

Banned
Dec 26, 2013
3,991
0
0
^DMC3 has amazing gameplay but it is overrated. DMC1 is the greatest DMC game and my favorite game ever made. I really wish we got a real sequel to it, but hey the CURAZAY series that came up in its place is damn good too!



Im playing The Answer right now, Mudoon pls.

DMC3:SE is my personal favorite DMC game, but yeah, original DMC kicked ass. Also Its music was cooler.

I CAN DEMON SLAY TO THIS SHIT ALL DAY.


I think Bayonetta is overrated, don't crucify me.
My avatar has been through that already.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Oct 16, 2012
10,506
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0
That's not a counter-argument, though.

A:CM 'works'. You can play it to completion.

How do you define what 'works' and what doesn't 'work'? What makes it different from 'objectively bad design'?
 

Daimaou

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Sep 18, 2011
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That's not a counter-argument, though.

A:CM 'works'. You can play it to completion.

How do you define what 'works' and what doesn't 'work'? What makes it different from 'objectively bad design'?

Game-breaking bugs, mostly. Though I suppose that's not really design so much as lack of polish.

To your point, though, if someone really liked A:CM to the point they think it is the best game they have ever played then that is completely their choice. To say "you know better" and that it's "bad" is so arrogant it hurts.
 
This doesn't get rid of the fundamental problem with demon negotiation or grinding, though. It's still wasting your time and moreover making you feel like it.

Because P2 is the only game with grinding. You could make a case that social linking is a waste of time too, especially boring ones that result in great Persona.



Not that I feel that way, but another subjective thing.
 

Squire

Banned
Feb 6, 2011
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So snippy.

Should be written on my tombstone.

Look, I'm just saying not every game we like is designed well. There's a lot that goes in to making a game and quite a bit of it is objective as it's a scientific process as much as it is creating a piece of art.
 

Moonlight

Banned
Oct 16, 2012
10,506
0
0
Actually meaning to buy P1 when it comes on sale. Eventually. If nothing else than to complete my Persona collection on Vita. Whatever happened to that PSN sale, anyways?

Game-breaking bugs, mostly. Though I suppose that's not really design so much as lack of polish.

To your point, though, if someone really liked A:CM to the point they think it is the best game they have ever played then that is completely their choice. To say "you know better" and that it's "bad" is so arrogant it hurts.
I never said I knew better. I said there's such thing as objectively bad game design.

This is going to go nowhere, though, the relative opinion argument never does.
 

buddha0991

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Social Linking is fine on playthough 1, it feels engaging and good. On any replay of the game or New Game + however, it just feels like straight grinding to me. For P5, I think SLink levels should be an option to carry over in NG+