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Phil Spencer: We're upping our investment with first party and committed to innovate
- Thread starter leeh
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Yeah, it's the people who put CoD and GTA at the top of the charts every year. The ones who put Wildlands as the best selling game despite Zelda dropping in the same month. The majority of people like to play games with other people.
Okami Haundo
Member
I'm really curious to see if Phil's statements here will relate to their efforts with Xbox Game Pass. I think there was an interview about that in which he stated that he thinks games could potentially launch on the service. If that's how single-player focused titles get funded, I'm all for it! I wonder how a game like Sunset Overdrive would have performed as a rental vs. a full retail release.
JamesHolden
Banned
Most successful games are on most platforms anyways. Sony has been vastly more successful than MS this generation, thanks for sharing, I had no idea, but your opining of the "main reason" isn't really based on any hard facts beyond how you see the market according to your own tastes. There are far more issues surrounding console sales than exclusives games, especially during the early part of this generation, that have all been talked about ad nauseam here.
As I stated above, they need to get better at creating GaaS offerings.
Looking at the most played Xbox games, aside from fallout and skyrim there aren't many SP games in the top 25
Here's the thing: Microsoft is a service company. The service approach has always been what Microsoft is about. Its main product is an OS. Sony is an appliance and media company, so it will naturally care more about movie-like experiences.
Look back at Microsoft's most successful games: Halo, Gears, Forza, etc. On PC that has been Flight Simulator or Age of Empires. Microsoft has never been extremely successful with purely story-focused games. I don't think it's in Microsoft's DNA.
That said, Microsoft's major weakness in terms of third party support is Japan. If it wants 3rd parties to take care of the gap in SP games, it's going to need Japan. I don't see how Xbox becomes relevant in Japan. Maybe a path might lie in other Asian regions like Korea, Taiwan, etc. Japanese developers are starting to lean on Asia -- more of their big games are being translated into Chinese and Korean even before English, and in some cases that's been a main reason to release PC versions. When Japanese companies do release on Xbox it's pretty much purely for the benefit of North America and the UK. Microsoft still doesn't seem to be really committed however to getting ahead in territories outside NA and the UK.
When the sales for all 2017's games are tallied up next year we'll see how Zelda, Horizon, and Persona 5 stack up against COD WWII, Battlefront II, Red Dead 2, Madden, FIFA, 2K, more GTA V, and Destiny 2.
Look back at Microsoft's most successful games: Halo, Gears, Forza, etc. On PC that has been Flight Simulator or Age of Empires. Microsoft has never been extremely successful with purely story-focused games. I don't think it's in Microsoft's DNA.
That said, Microsoft's major weakness in terms of third party support is Japan. If it wants 3rd parties to take care of the gap in SP games, it's going to need Japan. I don't see how Xbox becomes relevant in Japan. Maybe a path might lie in other Asian regions like Korea, Taiwan, etc. Japanese developers are starting to lean on Asia -- more of their big games are being translated into Chinese and Korean even before English, and in some cases that's been a main reason to release PC versions. When Japanese companies do release on Xbox it's pretty much purely for the benefit of North America and the UK. Microsoft still doesn't seem to be really committed however to getting ahead in territories outside NA and the UK.
When the sales for all 2017's games are tallied up next year we'll see how Zelda, Horizon, and Persona 5 stack up against COD WWII, Battlefront II, Red Dead 2, Madden, FIFA, 2K, more GTA V, and Destiny 2.
xabbott
Member
You must not know about Roblox. It's the most popular "free" game on XB1 and is generally in the top 10 most played games on the console.
Aaronrules380
Member
and none of those are first party games. Nobody is arguing that the most successful games on the market aren't GaaS. We're arguing that they need games that sell consoles, not games that sell copies and those concepts are entirely different.
I mean, its not going to be close, but it isn't because Zelda, Horizon, and P5 sold terrible. The franchises you listed are juggernauts that are on more than one console.
Spoiler alert: they won't. Zelda might crack the top 10. No chance for Horizon or Persona. Spencer might be underselling SP games but he's not wrong in stating they don't move the needle as much as they used to.
Whoops, my apologies, posting in a few different threads and got you mixed up!
And yeah, I don't expect them to have these things right away but it just goes to show you need to lay the groundwork early and correcting course isnt so easy. I would say it's easier to keep momentum going than to go from standstill.
JamesHolden
Banned
Your argument is Sony has sold more consoles than Microsoft this generation, Sony has been better at creating SP games this generation. Therefore Sony has sold more consoles because consumers want better SP exclusive games, and Microsoft would sell more consoles if their SP offerings can compete better with Sony's. The first two points are undoubtedly true, your conclusions based on those points are not necessarily true.
DriftingSpirit
Member
What is the point of that comparison? They don't have to sell CoD type numbers to perform very well.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I don't know how he gets away with it in all honesty, as he still seems to be trusted by many gamers. But the proof is in the pudding.
Because his interview implies they're looking for a larger, longer-lasting install base than SP games can offer.
Of course those games are going to sell better, which is fine.... but that doesn't mean there's no room for story based, single player games. They can co-exist, and a large part of the market wants both.
Maintenance
Member
2blackcats
Member
Well, comparing console exclusive titles to those multiplats is just weird anyway.
If Zelda sold the same as COD it could only be because COD is an unbelievable flop.
DriftingSpirit
Member
The GaaS type games they are working on are not going to sell anywhere near those listed third party games and they won't have the same engagement either. That won't determine whether they succeed or fail though. I'm just pointing out that CoD selling more than Zelda and Horizon doesn't prove anything.
I'm just saying that Microsoft doesn't seem interested in selling consoles with individual games. It hasn't been probably since like 2009 or something. Its strategy has been to simply make Xbox seem like the better service. Last gen that worked because of the huge gap between XBL and PSN back then -- though you can argue the 360's advantage in third party exclusives early in that gen made a huge difference. Now Microsoft is trying to repeat this with things like Game Pass, Backwards Compatibility, EA Access not being on PlayStation, and constantly improving hardware models. I'm not saying that's actually going to work, I'm just saying that's what Microsoft seems inclined to do.
If you ask me personally, I think big publishers need to start rethinking singleplayer. SP shouldn't exclusively mean big linear storylines. I think a lot of the things that make MP compelling can be applied to SP if done right.
I also think Nintendo might be proof you can still get through the service games competition with unique ideas. We talk about Zelda but haven't talked as much about Mario Kart, Smash, and Splatoon. These are all successful MP games because they're fun and they're also unique. EA, Ubisoft, and Take-Two have nothing like Kart and Smash. Maybe Microsoft could learn from that example and try to think a little more outside the box if it's going to focus on service games.
Lastly, Zelda might be a console seller but I'm still not convinced Horizon is, or even if Uncharted really is in the same capacity as a Nintendo game. What's Uncharted's attach rate to PS4s compared to GTA V or 2K? Even if you add together Persona 5, Yakuza 0, Nioh, Nier, and Gravity Rush those are still all relatively niche Japanese games, P5 somewhat less niche. Among Sony's exclusives I'm actually interested in seeing how GT Sport does sales-wise.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Phil's been saying the same shit for 4 years nearly. What's happened in that time? Games canned or studios shut down.
Absolutely this. You can't outrun actual results, folks. The bottom line is that Xbox has a diverse lineup of games, exclusive games at that. However, the single player games on Xbox just haven't performed well. If you are looking to invest in a game, at this point, it seems like the larger service driven multi-player games provide a higher return on average. (probability of any return, for that matter). I say this as a person that loves SP games. The bottom line is, results simply aren't showing them to be as attractive of an investment on the Xbox platform. Bummer for those of us that like them, but it's tough to argue with the results.
Aaronrules380
Member
Attach rate isn't the defining factor of a game being a console seller. A game being a console seller means it attracts an audience that wasn't necessarily there otherwise. A game that sells 2 million units of which 500,000 are people new to the hardware is far more valuable to a console maker than a game that selling 10 million of which only 100,000 are new owners.
And yes I'm aware that this isn't MS's strategy right now. I'm arguing that's a bad decision and that their current strategy is a huge contributor to why they're doing so much worse than the PS4, a gap which is only growing with time. Some people might argue that Scorpio will lead to a turn around, but I'm heavily skeptical since I see Scorpio appealing more to people who already own an Xbox One than to people outside their ecosystem.
2blackcats
Member
He does say it very well though.
He's been talking a big game for ages now and has barely delivered anything.
Still there's something about the guy I like and I'm generally willing to cut him a lot of slack.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
Phil and Microsoft aren't interested in delivering the next Zelda or Horizon. They want the next Dota 2, World of Warcraft or Minecraft. They want people to pay a lot of money. They want games where it makes sense to put microtransactions into. Where it doesn't intrude too much. I feel that too much of their vision is clouded by greed to get any joy out of. You can have a business perspective, that's fine, but it has to be matched be creativity in order to feel sincere.
You're right. What I was poorly trying to get at is I think MS is over (or getting there) taking risks in regards to solely SP experiences. At least internally. Horizon worked for Sony. Zelda is obviously in a different class. But at the end of the day, the games that still sell the most are ones that can be enjoyed with your friends. That's what MS has always been about. I think he's hinting that there won't be internal AAA SP games going forward. Maybe AA or 2nd party, but them trying to craft a Horizon is a no go.
Yeah, this. I still think the main reasons PS4 is outselling Xbox One so much are as follows:
1) Microsoft fucked up its marketing message early on. Sony didn't.
2) PSN got close enough feature-wise to XBL.
3) Microsoft is still only really competitive in North America and the UK. Sony is more global, having advantages in Japan and continental Europe. It's also making inroads into Asia.
4) And maybe, the 3rd party Japanese exclusives have started coming back after a lull during the PS3 years.
DriftingSpirit
Member
I think looking at why these are the results would be more productive.
Papacheeks
Banned
I'd argue what were the numbers when witcher 3 launched? ANd what highly well received single player game is there currently out to play that's a must have? MASS EFFECT was shit, so what else is there currently for xbox single player wise?
Telltale?
JamesHolden
Banned
Microsoft is truly unique in seeking profits as a business model. Definitely super insincere on their part.
2blackcats
Member
Why though?
I know their efforts in the last few years didn't do crazy numbers but I presume they were all at least profitable.
Their big losses weren't on single player games, fable etc.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Their focus on mashing games into services has resulted in blanket cancellations.
It's almost like it doesn't work that well with a lot of games.
Papacheeks
Banned
Which is what a lot of people including me have been saying for a long time. It works for certain games where it makes sense. Trying to take an already established IP and mashing GAAS into it won't work.
It has to happen organically.
MilkyJoe
Member
They can't just abandon new ip though. Give things a chance.
xeroborn55
Member
Its the games that matter. As its always been.
I was in the market for a console this month. There are half a dozen ps4 games i want to play. 0 xbone games. And dont even get me started on the switch. Theres no fucking way im ever buying a switch.
Of course i got a ps4. If microsoft ever gives me reason (a good exclusive game) ill consider buying an xbox. Until then its just not going to happen
I was in the market for a console this month. There are half a dozen ps4 games i want to play. 0 xbone games. And dont even get me started on the switch. Theres no fucking way im ever buying a switch.
Of course i got a ps4. If microsoft ever gives me reason (a good exclusive game) ill consider buying an xbox. Until then its just not going to happen
Phil continuing to say everything I want to hear and I still have faith we'll see the results of this soon (ish). Actually expecting a weak e3 but plenty in the pipes that are just too early to announce/reveal. Also, loved the bit about Xbox games pass allowing for new content that otherwise may not exist aka Netflix originals.
Still not seeing why you can't have a single player game and it be a game as a service. Tell Tale and Hitman do it. No reason why they can't do the same with games like ReCore or Quantum Break #SaveBeth. SP games don't have to be one and done and I'll repeat, putting the exclusive SP games on GamePass will be a smart move and have those games have seasons and such so the story can evolve over time. Imo, Zelda can do service type of stuff in that world cuz it's so big and it would be awesome. Even story type of stuff.
But honestly, a GAAS doesn't have to mean a Destiny, Overwatch, or multiplayer type of game. Developers just need to rethink single player to also have the service type of stuff in there like Tell Tale but on a "core audience" type of thing. Funny enough, that's what I was planning with my Indy game but I need time to work on it.
I dont think that there is a "death" of single player 1P Xbox games... just that the model of them may not be the same. That's basically what Phil is stating but of course doom and gloom.
But honestly, a GAAS doesn't have to mean a Destiny, Overwatch, or multiplayer type of game. Developers just need to rethink single player to also have the service type of stuff in there like Tell Tale but on a "core audience" type of thing. Funny enough, that's what I was planning with my Indy game but I need time to work on it.
I dont think that there is a "death" of single player 1P Xbox games... just that the model of them may not be the same. That's basically what Phil is stating but of course doom and gloom.
GaaS could be as simply delivering new updates of content over time. That could be anything from Story DLC, cosmetic items, free maps, etc.
It doesn't necessarily mean multiplayer games and that is where the confusion is coming from.
Calm waterfall
Banned
The whatever reason is that these kind of games don´t sell on the Xbox.
DriftingSpirit
Member
That would be unfortunate because I do feel they could craft a Horizon.
Given the amount of surveys they do on games and analytics being a core part of the company, I think it is safe to say they do that. When I refer to results, I'm referring to it more broadly than sales results but also customer empathy/sentiment. I don't want to presume that they are foolish enough not to dig deeper. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how their plans develop and whether or not their strategy pans out.
I think part of it is their efforts are always less well received critically (financially too obviously) to Sony's counterparts. They also seem to lack the patience/faith of Sony or Nintendo. Knack is getting a sequel but not Sunset or Ryse.
Thank you. Someone else gets it. People are twisting meanings.
SmoothRunningGun
Member
Yep. RIP SP games from MS.
I think this makes sense. The big thing I think they are focused on is new revenue after a game is sold. They want to milk games and keep the revenue coming long after a game is first sold. Could be a very lucrative strategy if it works. Could also bomb miserably. Will be interesting to see.
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