Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Graphics engineer explicitly said the Geometry Engine is more advanced. Like significantly.
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Playstation 5 Unified L3 Cache Shown In Patent.
- Thread starter Caio
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Graphics engineer explicitly said the Geometry Engine is more advanced. Like significantly.
It´s not all but it is. I doesn´t that tflops doesn´t care. People is very extremist
FranXico
Member
My dad is biggest of them all!
michaelius
Banned
It looks like Microsoft took standard designs and slapped biggest gpu they could fit inside and called it a day.
So they are on standard Zen2 cpu, standard rdna2, standard off the shelf m2 SSD.
Ev1L AuRoN
Member
Fascinating stuff. PS5 will make a mark on the industry. What they achieve with a smaller SoC and clever engineering is truly mind-blowing. Looking forward to the next projects from Naughty Dog, Santa Monica, Sucker Punch and Guerilla. Ratchet will give us a glimpse of the things to come.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's interesting because in the past both consoles had mixes between current gen architectures with small next-gen stuff.
Sony got a CPU + GPU features from next gen AMD stuff and MS just stuck with all this-gen... I'm super curious why/how it ended up this way. All the Sony fanboys want to envision Mark Cerny sitting in a lab designing CPU's and GPU's while AMD sits around copying off of his work but I get the feeling this is more AMD lending Sony tech and Sony patenting the implementation for their devices. But MS sells 10's of millions of chips too.. so it's not like they aren't also a priority customer.. so I doubt this was AMD doing something for Sony they'd refuse to do for MS... but that's possible I guess. MS of course thinks they'll need lots of chips for xCloud and ONE BILLION GAMERS as well, but maybe AMD isn't buying that crap... or maybe that pie in the sky xCloud shit is why MS stuck with a simpler setup, dunno.
Sony got a CPU + GPU features from next gen AMD stuff and MS just stuck with all this-gen... I'm super curious why/how it ended up this way. All the Sony fanboys want to envision Mark Cerny sitting in a lab designing CPU's and GPU's while AMD sits around copying off of his work but I get the feeling this is more AMD lending Sony tech and Sony patenting the implementation for their devices. But MS sells 10's of millions of chips too.. so it's not like they aren't also a priority customer.. so I doubt this was AMD doing something for Sony they'd refuse to do for MS... but that's possible I guess. MS of course thinks they'll need lots of chips for xCloud and ONE BILLION GAMERS as well, but maybe AMD isn't buying that crap... or maybe that pie in the sky xCloud shit is why MS stuck with a simpler setup, dunno.
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
More or less. Series X has some small customizations, but because the console needs to be cross compatible with PC, there is a limit to how custom/exotic they could have gone with their hardware. It is what it is and no amount of waiting will change that.
MastaKiiLA
Member
Unified L3 offers the advantage of allowing all 8 cores to work on the same piece of data, without having to shuffle any of it through system memory, which incurs a latency penalty. Latency means wasted clock cycles, while the core(s) wait to get the data they need to complete their work. Zen2 currently has L3 in 2 partitions, with 4 cores per partition. This generally means you have to limit shared code to half the size of a Zen3 CPU, and you're only really going to get to spread it across 4 cores at once.Unifed L3 cache is so nice but
Zen 3 has that too, right? do the performance and efficiency improvements compared to Zen 2 come from this?
Does a patent necessarily mean that the PS5 has this?
have we seen the floorplan of the soc yet?
Having shared L3 might also explain why SMT is always enabled for the PS5 CPU, as opposed to the XSX CPU that can run single-threaded. If all cores share the same L3, then it means they always have the ability to work on the same data, so there's no inherent gain in running single-threaded vs multi-threaded, since 1 or 8 cores still see the exact same L3 cache. I feel like that fact has been staring us in the face, and it's been overlooked. Someone correct me if I'm ignoring something here.
The existence of a patent that was created within the development window for the processor suggests strongly that the PS5 has it. It's not a fact, until proven, but patenting tech for the next-next-gen of consoles seems a bit pointless, as technology is constantly evolving, and the patents might not be applicable to tech in 7 years.
We have not seen the PS5 SOC images/diagrams yet. It's all conjecture at this point, but there's been so much smoke that some of us assume there's fire.
But who did that ?? You are putting everyone in the same bag. You can't act like angry little kids for revenge
1. Almost no generation won the most powerful console (PS1, PS2, PS3)
2. What the hell is win the generation? sell more?
3. Who said that Xbox was going to win the generation by being more powerful?
Generations are won by games, services, etc. and it has just begun and it is not yet known who will do better. This is not going to depend on power and more when the graphics are already so good on both consoles!!!
Cherrypepsi
Member
But you have nothing to add to the topic than redicule people's speculations just because you see yourself as an expert and this is a forum? good luck then
thanks, I looked it up.
Tomshardware said this:
"AMD’s decision to unify the L3 cache pays big dividends in applications that profit from low-latency memory access, with gaming being the perfect example. Meanwhile, more nuanced improvements to the branch predictor and front end expose faster performance across the board, yielding big gains in both single- and multi-threaded workloads. "
source:
AMD Ryzen 9 5950X and 5900X Review: Zen 3 Breaks the 5 GHz Barrier
AMD's Magnum Opus
www.tomshardware.com
ABnormal
Member
Yeah, I love that: customization that actually makes things easier and more efficient, not PS3 customization
One of the best comment I ever see in this forum!
Amd used unified L3 in the past in their processors without sucessBut you have nothing to add to the topic than redicule people's speculations just because you see yourself as an expert and this is a forum? good luck then
thanks, I looked it up.
Tomshardware said this:
"AMD’s decision to unify the L3 cache pays big dividends in applications that profit from low-latency memory access, with gaming being the perfect example. Meanwhile, more nuanced improvements to the branch predictor and front end expose faster performance across the board, yielding big gains in both single- and multi-threaded workloads. "
source:AMD Ryzen 9 5950X and 5900X Review: Zen 3 Breaks the 5 GHz Barrier
AMD's Magnum Opus
L3 unified Cache doesn´t mean that it´s better. Its mosly depending of the general desing
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FranXico
Member
Lovely projection, meirl. Or Hix.
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v_iHuGi
Banned
Yeah, I love that: customization that actually makes things easier and more efficient, not PS3 customization
Well Ps3 was actually great for internet reading, the headlines were always crazy
"Power of the Cell"
OptimistPrime
Member
Without going into rumor territory, there is a fundamental issue how DirectX works. Draw calls are expensive on Xbox or PC for that matter. This is not the case on Playstation. Here is receipts from 4A dev:
Metro Redux: what it's really like to develop for PS4 and Xbox One
As tech interviews go, this one's a corker. Readers of our previous Metro 2033 and Metro Last Light tech Q&As will know…www.eurogamer.net
That 4A dev article is from 2014 - a year before DX12 was released. DX12U introduces even more changes in terms of draw calls. I don’t think this take is super relevant, especially once the Series X tools mature.
kyoji
Member
They already did, there slogan is now the most powerful 'xbox'
Maybe for a legal questions.
it´s depending if we take teraflops as power or not. Xbox technically is more powerfull but we have to see if it´s more efficient. I think it´s too early to talk about this. Games but not the terrible games that we are getting now if not the real next gen games will show it.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yeah Sony has a lot of pie in the sky random patents but these kind of concrete implementation patents probably exist because.. well, Sony used them in PS5.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Perhaps more interesting than unified CPU cache is the other rumour he mentions here of Infinity Fabric-like tech helping the PS5's memory (bandwidth). This could mean that effective bandwidth is higher than Series X.
I mean, what you say isnt so controversial.
Phil even said they were waiting for AMD tech (Full RDNA 2....). Sony went the custom route for that.
Maybe more off the shelf than the PS5. We all know both consoles have customizations.
Thank you.
I get it, same thing basically happened last gen. And the launch games were used as metrics for the consoles.
Now all of a sudden, it needs to be different....
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SilentUser
Member
I don't understand a thing about all this, but I must say Sony is clearly doing something right as the "lesser" machine is performing better (in general) compared to the "stronger" machine. Kudos to Sony, their optimizations are paying off. Perhaps Microsoft should drop the "most powerful console" marketing slogan, it is borderline a lie.
They kind of did. It’s now just the most powerful Xbox rather than console.
OptimistPrime
Member
Alternate view: it feels more off-the-shelf because Microsoft has so much influence on the shelf itself with DirectX. Turing/Ampere/RDNA2 all support the same DX12U feature set, so it has become standard.
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ethomaz
Banned
The patent is specific for PS5 not a nee next-gen console.
It says PS5 diagram in the doc.
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Caio
Member
try to explain to blatant greenTèTeam warriors, Ricky on top of it. It's just a waste of time. The only clever thing they can do is to put a "LOL" at any comment or thread from a Sony fan or entusiast gamer in general who likes PS5 a lot. They are embarassing.
a multicultural team of v
Member
Which would also explain the 120fps results between the consoles, because 120 frames are a lot of frames to draw in a short amount of time and requires very low latency.
ethomaz
Banned
Xbox fans.
Journalists.
Digital Foundry.
Microsoft.
The big backslash that is making Xbox fans ask for permaban only happened due the winner narrative created for the whole year before the console launches.
kensama
Member
Seems you know nothing in life, in spite you claim you are more clever tahtn everybody throwing us your diploma.
Cause first to use AMD GPU on console is Nintendo on gamecube
ethomaz
Banned
It is the same for mobile CPUs.
Series X has 8MB L3 cache too... 4 + 4.
OptimistPrime
Member
I’m not sure this makes a ton of sense. It’s probably true that more threads would increase the probability that a request to the other cache would occur, but I can’t imagine by much. Arguably using fewer threads (<8) would actually benefit PS5 more (if it is indeed unified L3) since the cache:core ratio would increase more in that scenario relative to Series X.
Since there’s a clockspeed difference, it seems obvious to me that Microsoft simply saw they had some additional thermal/power headroom with SMT disabled and they thought they’d enable that option.
Caio
Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
There's a chance this patent might not be for PS5 at all, but the PS4 CPU. However, if it is referring to unified L3$ on the CPU then I can see that being the case. It makes a lot more sense than some phantom Infinity Cache in either system. For heavy CPU-bound tasks it could be of some benefit to PS5 relative to Series X, but I wouldn't expect night-and-day differences in that regard.
As to if this is to explain for some of the performance differences in 3P games between Sony and MS systems so far...well the mistake people make too often is looking for a "smoking gun". There is no "smoking gun", it's not that simple. I'd say unified L3$ is an exacerbation of the issue in that regard, not the root of it. Same would've been the case if there was IC on PS5 (there isn't). Even something like one being variable clock and the other fixed clock, in the end those are just exacerbating the root cause.
And what is that root cause? Combination of new API elements in the GDK, some GDK features still being unstable, certain functionality like NGG not fully going yet, and lack of time in familiarity with GDK features by some 3P devs, as well as perhaps lack of time to optimize the Series versions (PS5 versions may've been the priority), lack of timely GDK for Series S potentially impacting Series X development/optimization.
The total net of factors are a lot more complicated than just pinning it on one thing, especially one thing at a hard-fixed silicon level which would immediately imply the person going right to that conclusion doesn't think (or doesn't wish) the current ailments can be fixed with effort and time. Generally you need a lot more time and results to even begin pinning certain performance issues to very specific hardware limitations anyway, and even if such limitations turn out to be the case, there are still devs (usually 1P) who can work around those and produce results commonly accepted as impossible with those limitations present, through smart design and programming.
MS consoles also have extended hardware features for executeIndirect explicitly for handling drawcalls, this would be present in the Series systems as well.
It's kind of like people clinging onto super-old John Carmack quotes from the mid-2000s on narrow/fast vs. wide/slow designs, not understanding those quotes were made in a specific era and within the constraints of technology of that era. They aren't necessarily applicable as blanket statements in today's technological environment. Nuance in parsing the meaning where appropriate has to be taken.
Yep. When people hear something they think sounds new and therefore exotic in some way (I'm talking tech-wise), and they may already have some common-formed perceptions about two or so pieces of kit relative to each other (assuming one must be pedestrian, and the other must be unique), depending on their various preferences brand/technology-wise if that particular "thing" falls on one side or the other they will attach either positive or negative connotations to it.
But this usually is done without actually researching the feature in particular from a wider industrial field perspective to see in what ways it's actually been implemented and in what ways it's been useful (or a hindrance). Now with all that said, something that maybe was implemented in the past and didn't work out too well, doesn't mean the idea or concept itself is fundamentally flawed. Maybe its time for practical use was just too early when first utilized. So maybe the bigger reason why unified L3$ on AMD's older CPUs didn't bring much wasn't because of the unified L3$, but because AMD's CPU microarchitecture wasn't optimized for leveraging a unified L3$ efficiently back in that time.
It could, however, now be optimized for that with Zen 3, so they bring it back. Stuff like that.
As to if this is to explain for some of the performance differences in 3P games between Sony and MS systems so far...well the mistake people make too often is looking for a "smoking gun". There is no "smoking gun", it's not that simple. I'd say unified L3$ is an exacerbation of the issue in that regard, not the root of it. Same would've been the case if there was IC on PS5 (there isn't). Even something like one being variable clock and the other fixed clock, in the end those are just exacerbating the root cause.
And what is that root cause? Combination of new API elements in the GDK, some GDK features still being unstable, certain functionality like NGG not fully going yet, and lack of time in familiarity with GDK features by some 3P devs, as well as perhaps lack of time to optimize the Series versions (PS5 versions may've been the priority), lack of timely GDK for Series S potentially impacting Series X development/optimization.
The total net of factors are a lot more complicated than just pinning it on one thing, especially one thing at a hard-fixed silicon level which would immediately imply the person going right to that conclusion doesn't think (or doesn't wish) the current ailments can be fixed with effort and time. Generally you need a lot more time and results to even begin pinning certain performance issues to very specific hardware limitations anyway, and even if such limitations turn out to be the case, there are still devs (usually 1P) who can work around those and produce results commonly accepted as impossible with those limitations present, through smart design and programming.
MS consoles also have extended hardware features for executeIndirect explicitly for handling drawcalls, this would be present in the Series systems as well.
It's kind of like people clinging onto super-old John Carmack quotes from the mid-2000s on narrow/fast vs. wide/slow designs, not understanding those quotes were made in a specific era and within the constraints of technology of that era. They aren't necessarily applicable as blanket statements in today's technological environment. Nuance in parsing the meaning where appropriate has to be taken.
Yep. When people hear something they think sounds new and therefore exotic in some way (I'm talking tech-wise), and they may already have some common-formed perceptions about two or so pieces of kit relative to each other (assuming one must be pedestrian, and the other must be unique), depending on their various preferences brand/technology-wise if that particular "thing" falls on one side or the other they will attach either positive or negative connotations to it.
But this usually is done without actually researching the feature in particular from a wider industrial field perspective to see in what ways it's actually been implemented and in what ways it's been useful (or a hindrance). Now with all that said, something that maybe was implemented in the past and didn't work out too well, doesn't mean the idea or concept itself is fundamentally flawed. Maybe its time for practical use was just too early when first utilized. So maybe the bigger reason why unified L3$ on AMD's older CPUs didn't bring much wasn't because of the unified L3$, but because AMD's CPU microarchitecture wasn't optimized for leveraging a unified L3$ efficiently back in that time.
It could, however, now be optimized for that with Zen 3, so they bring it back. Stuff like that.
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Agnostic2020
Member
We have heard this hinted by so many people and its not a coincidentally that now we see patent was submitted for it last year around same time their soc was final .
That's also probably why ps5 can't turn smt off and its always engaged as there is no benefit to turning it off.
That's also probably why ps5 can't turn smt off and its always engaged as there is no benefit to turning it off.
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Killer Sakoman
Member
Hix?
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Because they went to AMD and said give me those TFs!
AMD gave them TFs.
Sony went and started a project around the existing AMD architecture, requesting deep chamges to fit their vision.
Given how they end up at about the same place in therms of performance (so far, we could argue about which has more potential for development).
About the future:
1 - MS could at best be more efficient around their APIs and get closer to Chip's full 12tf potential.
2 - if you want a taste of what storage that's close to the hardware can do look up AMD s purchase of Xilinx and their solutions for moving compute closer to data... We can only guess how videogames will benefit from a similar approach (the unreal 5 demo is probably a taste of what is to come).
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
You're acting like one all over this thread right now.
assurdum
Banned
Man some of you are something else really. So MS can do everything better than Sony because they have more money but only a deeper university instructions can give such deeper introspective consideration. Furthermore Sony doesn't have a single clue of what they did with the ps5 design, every patent means nothing, everything on ps5 is absolutely casual and inferior because you know...reasons. But sure there are just Sony fans who already declared the winners early, definitely.
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A Most Virtuous Cat
Banned
I think MS already has dropped that and changed to "most powerful xbox"
assurdum
Banned
The thing people seems completely to ignore (I don't know if intentionally or less) is Sony has practically designed their GPU from the ground, asking to AMD to save money giving them the full access to their Navi tech later (Cerny, road to the ps5), MS indeed simply call AMD and asked the best GPU possible to put on Xbox then they customized it. I don't know why we continue to compare the two as the same when clearly they acted completely different and definitely Sony was more involved in the chip design of the Navi gpu compared MS.
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Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Microsoft had no choice but to spread FUD about teraflops. They don't have any games. What were they supposed to do - just admit that their console sucks? At this point Microsoft is selling an inferior product to loyalists, low-information consumers, and tech obsessives with more money than they know what to do with: the first two groups love FUD and the last group doesn't care because they buy every new gadget at launch for no reason.
SplunkyMunkey
Member
Also what makes it abit worse is even thou series x is zen 2 but the cores they went for is server cores. Dont get me wrong still can be used for gaming but its not brilliant compared to gaming zen cores
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
They also have... Xbox fans who don't care that much about winning some power war.
Outside of crazy fanboys people just... play games on systems they like.
TimFL
Member
They already changed it to „the most powerful console we ever created“.
Yes, that´s true. Anyway we will see how it works. By the moment the performance in both consoles are great
8BiTw0LF
Banned
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