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[Theanine3D]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

Ah, yes, the "We need to hug more Nazis" card

Please understand. You can not be kind to people with an inherently violent, genocidal ideology. History has shown us what that leads to. I am not going to hold hands and sing kumbaya with someone wants me dead.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I think you might be overestimating how many people are actually made about the silence and underestimating how many people will be mad at his removal.

That just makes the devs moral cowards

 

[erlim]

Man I've never really paid attention to steam forums before but I had no idea it was that bad.

They come across as just a bunch of kids with no perspective. Racists are too vocal and kids are too impressionable. Some of their political opinions seem like they came straight from pepe memes, a scary thought.

There's a real danger in hand waving guys like that as simple minded children. But the truth of the matter is that there are many professionally functioning adults who are allowed to behave like shitty children because they go unchecked.

They are free to organize and strengthen their beliefs because most of the time, regular non-racist folk just go "damn their really a bunch of idiots with their pepe memes and tiki torches." But they aren't idiots. They're gaming the rest of us. They know we're outraged and in a stuppor and they love it. They are well organized and very supportive within their community of parasitic thought.

It's just shitty. It's hard not to get emotionally involved and riled up, but the developers, by remaining silent are letting their project be turned into a beacon for the alt-right mentality. You know their toxic community is going to champion this now, and that's all they need to keep normalizing JonTron's jackass racist philosophy.

And on the other side, there's plenty of us who find this innocuous and just want a new n64 platformer that are unwittingly supporting that alt-right mindshare.

Look, it's well within your rights to want a n64 platformer, and it's within the developers rights to turn a profit by not alienating racists. But make no mistake, there is a social consequence because the alt-right have happily entangled themselves with this project via a JonTron craft.

 

[Messofanego]

Removing him from the game seems silly to me.

Do you remove James Woods from Casino because of the shitty things he's said and done?

I understand that it's much easier to replace a voice actor but I don't think it's necessary. He did a job he was paid for before all this stuff came out.

Wouldn't stop me from buying the game.

Did James Woods' batshit craziness come out around the time of Casino? Was he a bit part in that movie? If not, that argument falls flat.

 

[Majukun]

There's a real danger in hand waving guys like that as simple minded children. But the truth of the matter is that there are many professionally functioning adults who are allowed to behave like shitty children because they go unchecked.

They are free to organize and strengthen their beliefs because most of the time, regular non-racist folk just go "damn their really a bunch of idiots with their pepe memes and tiki torches." But they aren't idiots. They're gaming the rest of us. They know we're outraged and in a stuppor and they love it. They are well organized and very supportive within their community of parasitic thought.

It's just shitty. It's hard not to get emotionally involved and riled up, but the developers, by remaining silent are letting their project be turned into a beacon for the alt-right mentality. You know their toxic community is going to champion this now, and that's all they need to keep normalizing JonTron's jackass racist philosophy.

And on the other side, there's plenty of us who find this innocuous and just want a new n64 platformer that are unwittingly supporting that alt-right mindshare.

Look, it's well within your rights to want a n64 platformer, and it's within the developers rights to turn a profit by not alienating racists. But make no mistake, there is a social consequence because the alt-right have happily entangled themselves with this project via a JonTron craft.

that's the part i don't get in the reasoning,what's the price? what's the consequence?
If nazi,ISIS or whatever decide to buy en masse a game what exactly changes in society,culture, in the political spectrum or whatnot?

all i see is people that have certain beliefs and will continue to have them..whenever they rally behind the game or they don't, their numbers is not gonna rise or diminish because of it.

 

[erlim]

Removing him from the game seems silly to me.

Do you remove James Woods from Casino because of the shitty things he's said and done?

I understand that it's much easier to replace a voice actor but I don't think it's necessary. He did a job he was paid for before all this stuff came out.

Wouldn't stop me from buying the game.

I think the main difference is games are way more community based and socially entrenched than film.

I mean, there are cinefiles, but there is a massive portion of social media and social culture built in and around games. Whether it's online play or subsequent let's play popularity, it does not take much for a game to become part of the zeitgeist.

In this case, JonTron as a new media star, has a huge rapport with his audience. His main medium of delivery isn't a tweet, but literally direct manifestos to his followers. He can indoctrinate and support a community of like-minded thinkers much easier than a person like James Woods trying to go through traditional media outlets.

Again, it doesn't take much for alt-right principles to grow and be normalized. They just need to go unchecked and continue forward through JonTron's viability as a popular personality.

that's the part i don't get in the reasoning,what's the price? what's the consequence?
If nazi,ISIS or whatever decide to buy en masse a game what exactly changes in society,culture, in the political spectrum or whatnot?

all i see is people that have certain beliefs and will continue to have them..whenever they rally behind the game or they don't, their numbers is not gonna rise or diminish because of it.

It's just another craft and a symbolic way to prove to the alt-right that their ideas and beliefs are acceptable to the main stream. It's not like registering a political party. There's no inbuilt way for society to keep the kind of viral overt racism of the alt-right through passive checks and balances, they merely need to survive on to continue growing mindshare. They grow by overt racism and rhetoric, but they are also allowed to grow further through passivism or apathy towards them.

Again, if you value fun nostalgia of a videogame---that's fine. Buying A Hat in Time isn't going to fast track Richard Spenser to the white house. It's just another signal of a larger problem wherein or society is complacent in allowing these fellas to score moral victories and support at will.

 

[excelsiorlef]

My take on this is always the same when it's about projects where many people are involved.

There are many people who might have worked in a game, movie or any other similar project. There's bound to be some shitty people involved. Think about your favorite movie... Hundreds of people worked for that right? You really think everyone was a saint? As far as racism goes, mathematically speaking, there bound to be at least a few racist people in any project where more than 10 people were involved. So what are you going to do? You might as well stop buying games or watch movies altogether, just to be safe.

And i find it pretty harsh that the good people also have to get punished because of the one guy who isn't even a major factor in the game. And it's not like everyone has a say in the matter i assume. Maybe most people in the team would agree to remove him from the game but it doesn't always mean they they have the power to do it if the one or two people in charge decides not to do so.

He wasn't just a hired VA, he was put in because he's JonTron.... that;s why h was there because he was YouTube Star JonTron....


And they've said not a peep against him this entire time.

 

[Muskieratboi]

I backed the Kickstarter.

I love the game to bits, and it is an extremely well polished title. I'm a bit miffed that a nasty person got a bit part as a momentary extra in a video game, but let's just remember, that much like the Yooka Laylee thing it's a bit part in a video game...

If the character was actually critically important? I'd be demanding it be replaced with quite a few of you.

IMO, this is yet again making Mumbo's Mountain out of Bottle's Molehill.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

Kindness would be condemning a guy, who outed himself as a white supremacist, that you put in your game specifically because of his celebrity

I backed the Kickstarter.

I love the game to bits, and it is an extremely well polished title. I'm a bit miffed that a nasty person got a bit part as a momentary extra in a video game, but let's just remember, that much like the Yooka Laylee thing it's a bit part in a video game...

If the character was actually critically important? I'd be demanding it be replaced with quite a few of you.

IMO, this is yet again making Mumbo's Mountain out of Bottle's Molehill.

Their silence is what made it this big. They could have released a statement but chose silence...

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I backed the Kickstarter.

I love the game to bits, and it is an extremely well polished title. I'm a bit miffed that a nasty person got a bit part as a momentary extra in a video game, but let's just remember, that much like the Yooka Laylee thing it's a bit part in a video game...

If the character was actually critically important? I'd be demanding it be replaced with quite a few of you.

IMO, this is yet again making Mumbo's Mountain out of Bottle's Molehill.

If the Nazis hadn't spent months harassing playtonic, I probably wouldn't care as much.

As it is, it unfortunately sends the message that they've scared Devs away from sending out any anti Nazi sentiment publicly, which is a bit shit.

.Their silence is what made it this big. They could have released a statement but chose silence...

If they made a statement they'd have had to endure months of harassment and likely death threats again. Vs a couple of neogaf threads. It's bad that they didn't, but I get why they didn't.

 

[squall211]

You would not be a cop from America by any chance would you?

What a stupid thing to say.

 

[GhostTrick]

If the Nazis hadn't spent months harassing playtonic, I probably wouldn't care as much.

As it is, it unfortunately sends the message that they've scared Devs away from sending out any anti Nazi sentiment publicly, which is a bit shit.

The problem is if you dont say anything, you'll make them your main userbase. And it'll be more difficult to distance yourself from these people... That is if you even want to get rid of these people.

 

[Myriadis]

A statement wouldn't change anything as he is apparently still in the game and for the looks of it, will unfortunately stay there. Any statement they will make will get the "Too little, too late"-treatment, considering the circumstances, anyway.

 

[Rmagnus]

What a stupid thing to say.

Last time I checked the blue wall is still a thing or am I mistaken? For example in the current Utah case where a black man was shot for running away from the cops did any of the cops appear to condemn that shooting? If I am wrong I apologize. Oddly enough Muslims are supposed to come out to condemn terrorist attacks etc the double standard is staggering

 

[erlim]

I backed the Kickstarter.

I love the game to bits, and it is an extremely well polished title. I'm a bit miffed that a nasty person got a bit part as a momentary extra in a video game, but let's just remember, that much like the Yooka Laylee thing it's a bit part in a video game...

If the character was actually critically important? I'd be demanding it be replaced with quite a few of you.

IMO, this is yet again making Mumbo's Mountain out of Bottle's Molehill.

The problem is that JonTron isn't just your rank and file covert bigot, he's a dude that's actively put out racist tirades and maintains a huge amount of popularity and support.

He doesn't have to kneel to any employers or corporate control, he very much has a direct rapport with his fans and supporters. Think about Gilbert Godfrey losing his Aflac sponsorship after one ill-tempurature joke towards Japan. Now imagine a man actively supporting insane racist rhetoric---why should he continue getting platforms to speak from and chances to further grow his fanbase?

It really doesn't matter if he played the main character or was an easter-egg cameo. By not condemning him, its passively acknowledging the racial perspectives that he overtly supports aren't damaging or dangerous enough to stop supporting.

Yes, it might be a great game, but it also feeds into some unsavory practices, unfortunately.

 

[Majukun]

It's just another craft and a symbolic way to prove to the alt-right that their ideas and beliefs are acceptable to the main stream. It's not like registering a political party. There's no inbuilt way for society to keep the kind of viral overt racism of the alt-right through passive checks and balances, they merely need to survive on to continue growing mindshare. They grow by overt racism and rhetoric, but they are also allowed to grow further through passivism or apathy towards them.

but that's the thing..saying to someone that you don't like their beliefs does nothing to remove them from said beliefs...in fact, and this is a psychological response that has been studied, the more you tell to someone that held a deep belief that said belief it's wrong, the more he/she will adhere and keep it close to his heart...in the end,humans don't like to be wrong,they want certainty in their lives, and their beliefs are part of that.

and if you are an US citizien,the recent elections should have already taught you that.

people that rally behind a nazi flag in 2017 or that spout ignorant and racist remarks are already beyond salvation..i'm all for not giving them some kind of public platform..but they rallying behind a game is not propaganda,but more of them circle jerking between themselves some more..and that's something they are gonna do whetever you buy this game or not....it kind of remembers me of the other guy here on Neogaf that was advocating for everyone to stop using the OK hand sign because some neo nazi or something are starting to use it for themselves..let them do whatever they want..they can even create a secret handshake for what it's worth... if you want to cancel an ideology, you have to pass from somewhere else than saying someone that he/she is wrong.

 

[OTIX]

I think we will see more and more small games flirting with the alt-right. For a big game it would be different but for a small game a boycott just isn't very effective since most people who hear about the controversy wouldn't have bought the game anyway. And it seems very few are willing to join the boycott in the first place. So the visibility and support from the right-wing communities and youtubers is far more valuable. The YL devs removed JonTron and they got a huge backlash for it.

Gears for Breakfast have been silent on this for months and while it is morally reprehensible it's also probably a smart business decision, sadly.

 

[Yoshi]

The problem is if you dont say anything, you'll make them your main userbase. And it'll be more difficult to distance yourself from these people... That is if you even want to get rid of these people.

Your main user base? I seriously doubt this and if alt righters turned out to be the main user base of the game, then the developers would be quite lucky, because obviously, the game would have failed massively otherwise. As it currently stands, most potential customers have no idea about the Jontron thing, then there are some who are aware and do not care, some who are aware and will not buy it because of this, but this for now seems mostly limited to the small audiences of NeoGAF and Polygon and some who are aware and are buying it because of Jontron's involvement (limited to very active alt righters I guess). If they said something, they'd swap the last two groups in terms of buyers / non-buyers (and potentially lose additional customers through aggressive actions against them by the right wing people), but I cannot see either group making up a majority of potential buyers.

 

[Elephant]

Asking for a statement is not fighting hate with hate. Neither is not buying the game. Equating what we are talking about with white supremacy is disgusting.

And if they don't give a statement? What's your reaction then? Can you account for everyone, not just on GAF, but across all social media as a result of articles like this? I can see how you would consider the comparison disgusting, but from another perspective the way people jump on these kind of articles and attack these people, does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things and are ultimately part of the problem.

Ah, yes, the "We need to hug more Nazis" card

Please understand. You can not be kind to people with an inherently violent, genocidal ideology. History has shown us what that leads to. I am not going to hold hands and sing kumbaya with someone wants me dead.

No ones asking you to be best friends with them. But shouting at someone will only result in making them more stubborn and defiant. Are we trying to change peoples views or are we considering them lost causes?


I think people are taking the "kindness" comment far too literally.

 

[erlim]

but that's the thing..saying to someone that you don't like their beliefs does nothing to remove them from said beliefs...in fact, and this is a psychological response that has been studied, the more you tell to someone that held a deep belief that said belief it's wrong, the more he/she will adhere and keep it close to his heart...in the end,humans don't like to be wrong,they want certainty in their lives, and their beliefs are part of that.

and if you are an US citizien,the recent elections should have already taught you that.

people that rally behind a nazi flag in 2017 or that spout ignorant and racist remarks are already beyond salvation..i'm all for not giving them some kind of public platform..but they rallying behind a game is not propaganda,but more of them circle jerking between themselves some more..and that's something they are gonna do whetever you buy this game or not....it kind of remembers me of the other guy here on Neogaf that was advocating for everyone to stop using the OK hand sign because some neo nazi or something are starting to use it for themselves..let them do whatever they want..they can even create a secret handshake for what it's worth... if you want to cancel an ideology, you have to pass from somewhere else than saying someone that he/she is wrong.

I'm not saying you can erase their ideology. But you can water down their shitty arrogant voices by not being apathetic to them or allowing them to further grow in their organization.

My whole point is, that leaving the alt-right unchecked goes beyond leaving them to their devices. More dangerously it will allow them to become larger in their mindshare. Just because you can't change their point of view doesn't mean you have to allow it to become normalized in art and media.

And yes, while the main scope of the game isn't to be some alt-right manifesto---it's a movement that prays on the passivity of the rest of the population.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

Man I've never really paid attention to steam forums before but I had no idea it was that bad.

They come across as just a bunch of kids with no perspective. Racists are too vocal and kids are too impressionable. Some of their political opinions seem like they came straight from pepe memes, a scary thought.

Steam forums are moderated by their respective developers. How bad they are depend on how heavily the developers moderate them. That stuff wouldn't fly on the forums for any of the games I've made. Of course that's easy to say since my games aren't remotely as big and don't receive even close to the same amount of discussion so moderating is a lot easier (I've rarely had to actually do any moderation, I think I've deleted like two posts total).

 

[GhostTrick]

Your main user base? I seriously doubt this and if alt righters turned out to be the main user base of the game, then the developers would be quite lucky, because obviously, the game would have failed massively otherwise. As it currently stands, most potential customers have no idea about the Jontron thing, then there are some who are aware and do not care, some who are aware and will not buy it because of this, but this for now seems mostly limited to the small audiences of NeoGAF and Polygon and some who are aware and are buying it because of Jontron's involvement (limited to very active alt righters I guess). If they said something, they'd swap the last two groups in terms of buyers / non-buyers (and potentially lose additional customers through aggressive actions against them by the right wing people), but I cannot see either group making up a majority of potential buyers.

Not alt right. Extreme right.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

And if they don't give a statement? What's your reaction then? Can you account for everyone, not just on GAF, but across all social media as a result of articles like this? I can see how you would consider the comparison disgusting, but from another perspective the way people jump on these kind of articles and attack these people, does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things and are ultimately part of the problem.

Then you keep bringing it up. You keep up the discussion. Just because they aren't giving a statement now doesn't mean you can let them sweep it under the rug to forget about it.

Also be more specific, what people. How will it do more harm than good to actively call it out.

 

[Rmagnus]

And if they don't give a statement? What's your reaction then? Can you account for everyone, not just on GAF, but across all social media as a result of articles like this? I can see how you would consider the comparison disgusting, but from another perspective the way people jump on these kind of articles and attack these people, does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things and are ultimately part of the problem.



No ones asking you to be best friends with them. But shouting at someone will only result in making them more stubborn and defiant. Are we trying to change peoples views or are we considering them lost causes?


I think people are taking the "kindness" comment far too literally.

Go read a history book on how Germany took Hungary in ww2

 

[Ryuuga]

Dead at the twitter threads. In them most of the anger is directed people no longer supporting the game now that they realize this racist fuck is in it. Like others I saw the game a couple months back and figured I'd pick up at some point, but I can't willingly support the game when the devs left him in knowing what he represents. The silence makes them all the more complicit.

 

[Adam_Roman]

I backed the game, so I put a few hours into it so far. I enjoy it a lot, but this whole situation has left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm confident I wouldn't have bought it this early if I didn't back it, but since they had my money a few years ago, all I can say is the game's fun but Jon's a bad voice actor. He talks in a way that just really annoys me. The one line I've heard from him in game so far is in the second world, he says something like "I'm watching the front desk here. DON'T even THINK about trying to SNEAK PAST ME!" I can't remember the exact line but his cadence and emphasis was really cringey.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I backed the game, so I put a few hours into it so far. I enjoy it a lot, but this whole situation has left a sour taste in my mouth. I'm confident I wouldn't have bought it this early if I didn't back it, but since they had my money a few years ago, all I can say is the game's fun but Jon's a bad voice actor. He talks in a way that just really annoys me. The one line I've heard from him in game so far is in the second world, he says something like "I'm watching the front desk here. DON'T even THINK about trying to SNEAK PAST ME!" I can't remember the exact line but his cadence and emphasis was really cringey.

See? Like I said, he's literally just talking as himself. Didn't even dress it up for the contextual situation. Those guys couldn't even do more takes than that?

 

[Majukun]

I'm not saying you can erase their ideology. But you can water down their shitty arrogant voices by not being apathetic to them or allowing them to further grow in their organization.

and not buying this game does nothing in this regard

My whole point is, that leaving the alt-right unchecked goes beyond leaving them to their devices. More dangerously it will allow them to become larger in their mindshare. Just because you can't change their point of view doesn't mean you have to allow it to become normalized in art and media.

and again..this game does nothing to normalize their beliefs in art and media..this is not a nazi game that can be a vehicle of propaganda, this is a game that has one guy in a very marginal role that hold certain beliefs, nobody is gonna be swayed to racism or nazifascism because jon tron is in a hat in time..to me it sounds more like you really just want to believe in some kind of karmic justice..to be able to hit and punish jontron in some way for his racism more than to do anything concrete in opposition to the spreading of its beliefs.

And yes, while the main scope of the game isn't to be some alt-right manifesto---it's a movement that prays on the passivity of the rest of the population.

concentrating your efforts in what actually matters it's different than being passive, but more like being able to choose your battles to fight more effectively. At least that's my view on the matter.

but in the end, everyone will keep acting like his/her beliefs dictates and buy or boycot this game because of them..it was kind of the point of my post in the end

 

[Unclebenny]

This was brought up earlier in the conversation but it is worth repeating.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbern...te-nationalism?utm_term=.rbGxrxL75#.rs63g34KL

Milo aided and abetted by in the background Breitbart leveraged the white hot heat and stupidity around Gamergate to sneak White Supremacist rhetoric into the mainstream. A lot of the people included in this are in the games and tech industry.

There are numerous game industry types on Twitter right now, lamenting their lack of action in rebutting this nonsense and letting it fester:

https://twitter.com/patrickklepek/status/916062780159127552

This is what happens when we don't react in the strongest terms. The half arsed, semi- conciliatory replies of the gaming community is what allows it to be the enormous lumbering mess it is. Justifying itself in getting whipped into a frenzy over fucking loot boxes but unable to condemn heinous racism in the strongest terms.

This is why we can't have a sensible discussion about anything in the gaming community because the product comes before the people.

 

[Kusagari]

Their silence basically says they're actively courting the alt-right and are too scared to do a single thing to upset them.

And it's why I won't buy this game. I would have done it, even if they had put out a boiler plate statement and left him in. But this silence shows what they really think.

 

[erlim]

Go read a history book on how Germany took Hungary in ww2

Exactly, enacting real progressive social change for equality is hard. Bigotry, prejudice, and racism need only wider apathy to grow.

If you're going to support this game, and the developers' complacency to support a bonafide racist with celebrity status; don't say it's to support the artists and on the ground programmers of the game.

Nobody is forcing you to take up a cause. If you value nostolgic fun in a videogame experience over actively taking on a racist, there's nothing wrong with that. It takes a lot of dedication and focus to stamp out these social parasites.

Just please don't diminish the fact that JonTron and like-minded groups have an extremely damaging effect on POC on a robust social scale. What might seem innocuous and insignificant in the scheme of things is actually giving face to a person many feel is detestable, toxic, and personally harmful.

This is what happens when we don't react in the strongest terms. The half arsed, semi- conciliatory replies of the gaming community is what allows it to be the enormous lumbering mess it is. Justifying itself in getting whipped into a frenzy over fucking loot boxes but unable to condemn heinous racism in the strongest terms.

This is why we can't have a sensible discussion about anything in the gaming community because the product comes before the people.

Damn Jr; QFT.

and again..this game does nothing to normalize their beliefs in art and media..this is not a nazi game that can be a vehicle of propaganda, this is a game that has one guy in a very marginal role that hold certain beliefs, nobody is gonna be swayed to racism or nazifascism because jon tron is in a hat in time..to me it sounds more like you really just want to believe in some kind of karmic justice..to be able to hit and punish jontron in some way for his racism more than to do anything concrete in opposition to the spreading of its beliefs.

Look. There's people that are extremely damaging to POC, women, and minorities, without dressing up in Hitler cosplay. That's just not how the alt-right works. I don't have any reason to believe in karmic justice---I just understand that if people of the alt-right and white nationalists can get away with whatever horrible platform they believe, it's working towards validating them. Like I said, nobody is forcing you to take a cause. It's just disconcerting to some of us that a brazen racist is given any opportunities or platform at all.

 

[Elephant]

Then you keep bringing it up. You keep up the discussion. Just because they aren't giving a statement now doesn't mean you can let them sweep it under the rug to forget about it.

Also be more specific, what people. How will it do more harm than good to actively call it out.

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

 

[Nanashrew]

To add to that Buzzfeed article that is showing up and how Breitbart really moved up in the world. JonTron also did an interview for Breitbart before too. Long before the Destiny interview. People ignored all these signs until he finally screwed up and made everything clear about who he really is in the Destiny interview.

He then started following a ton of people like writers for Breitbart and Infowars and many other terrible people. I remember because PeanutButterGamer had gotten into an argument with JonTron about the interview.

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

Go read a history book on how Germany took Hungary in ww2

How does that relate to anything? If we're talking about the rise of alt-right nationalism in America, you have to look at your options. Either these people are a lost cause and the only option is to remove thier voting rights altogether or I don't know, lock them up or something?

Or you can try to change their minds. As Elephant already said, insulting and condemning people, however well deserved it might be, has a poor history of winning them over. So what's the plan?

You've got to ask yourself what you priority is, making the world a better place or letting everyone know how much you hate people with certain viewpoints? The former is a far more nuanced challenge than smacking a bitch up, so to speak, reasoning with people likely won't win over everyone, maybe not even most, but it will have an infinitly better rate than insults.

Doing the right thing, is rarely easy.

Sometimes it is... like the right thing is for the devs to say something... and that's pretty easy...

You're not wrong, mine was just a wider response to the converstaion above - slightly off-topic, I appreciate.

 

[Ryuuga]

I'm already seeing some surmise that low review scores are/will be due to JonTron's involvement. Should reviewers disclose his involvement and what he represents if it doesn't negatively affect gameplay? I wouldn't mind if it was disclosed in a section discussing voice work, or at least a link to another article surrounding the controversy regarding his involvement.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

Because they put him in because he was a famous YouTuber, he exists in the game solely because of who he is.


And because saying nothing is cowardly

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

Fuck buying this game after this:

I was the only one on the team who had the skills to create Snatcher in 3D. Snatcher was originally just a 2D sprite that was overlayed on the environment, but because of certain cutscenes he later had to be evolved into a full 3D animated mesh. However, this required shape key (also known as morph target) animation, something no one else on the team at the time knew how to do. I also created the pillow pile (the one you can "swim" in) in Hat Kid's spaceship, using a physics simulation. None of my colleagues knew how to do that either.

Yet despite all that, the company remained quiet after JonTron called people like me lazy welfare thieves that should be kept out of the gene pool. Not even a measly tweet saying they disagree with him.

Disgusting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

How does that relate to anything? If we're talking about the rise of alt-right nationalism in America, you have to look at your options. Either these people are a lost cause and the only option is to remove thier voting rights altogether or I don't know, lock them up or something?

Or you can try to change their minds. As Elephant already said, insulting and condemning people, however well deserved it might be, has a poor history of winning them over. So what's the plan?

You've got to ask yourself what you priority is, making the world a better place or letting everyone know how much you hate people with certain viewpoints? The former is a far more nuanced challenge than smacking a bitch up, so to speak, reasoning with people likely won't win over everyone, maybe not even most, but it will have an infinitly better rate than insults.

Doing the right thing, is rarely easy.

Sometimes it is... like the right thing is for the devs to say something... and that's pretty easy...

 

[Rmagnus]

How does that relate to anything? If we're talking about the rise of alt-right nationalism in America, you have to look at your options. Either these people are a lost cause and the only option is to remove thier voting rights altogether or I don't know, lock them up or something?

Or you can try to change their minds. As Elephant already said, insulting and condemning people, however well deserved it might be, has a poor history of winning them over. So what's the plan?

You've got to ask yourself what you priority is, making the world a better place or letting everyone know how much you hate people with certain viewpoints? The former is a far more nuanced challenge than smacking a bitch up, so to speak, reasoning with people likely won't win over everyone, maybe not even most, but it will have an infinitly better rate than insults.

Doing the right thing, is rarely easy.

Good luck winning people who see others as inferior just by the colour of their skin. I will be cheering you on

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

That's funny, considering there are non-white employees that worked on the game who are less than happy about their employers lack of response about JonTron. What was that about an ego-boost again, because to me it seems like you're assuming their position and using that to bolster your argument.

 

[Lime]

My tolerance for benign nazi collaborators is at an all-time low. No more discussion, no more 'both sides', no more "let's give the nazi benefit of the doubt", no more "his iron cross and his nazi tattoo are just ironic". If you're helping nazis, you're a collaborator. That's your choice and I can't do anything about it, but don't be mad at me calling a spade a spade.

 

[axisofweevils]

To me, it seems like a Codename STEAM issue. VA was recorded long before controversy came to light and removing it at this late stage isn't worth the time involved.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

Look mate, I'll level with ya. Ego boost? Nah. I got literally nothing to gain except peace of mind from wanting a developer to state SOME kind of confirmation that their inclusion of a person with controversial views does not actually reflect their philosophies and if they have a reason for their perpetual silence on the subject. He's already in the game, yes. I don't even expect any changes, because at this point a bunch of people are going into this thing solely to support Jontron's influence. But I expect an explanation. I would like a tangible reason why the dev team kept those lines in.

How much work and money goes into making a statement? None.

How much do they have to lose from talking about why JonTron is still in there? Not a lot! JonTron is still in the game, we have some capacity of understanding on why he's still there, and for some people that's just enough of a reason to go ahead with a purchase. And depending on their answer, I can at least know that there's a reason.

 

[Enjay]

I had never heard of this game until I read about JonTron being in it. Looks like a fun throwback platformer, hopefully with this and Sonic Mania the genre gets a resurgence on consoles.

 

[erlim]

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

I don't get it. How can people argue that this doesn't affect JonTron because 'he already got paid,' but that it does affect the employees and their families who likely also received their salary?

My tolerance for benign nazi collaborators is at an all-time low. No more discussion, no more 'both sides', no more "let's give the nazi benefit of the doubt", no more "his iron cross and his nazi tattoo are just ironic". If you're helping nazis, you're a collaborator. That's your choice and I can't do anything about it, but don't be mad at me calling a spade a spade.

Right. It's a thoughts and prayer situation. You're not going to stop racially-charged prejudice by letting it slide and hoping it will subside.

 

[Oersted]

Doing the right thing, is rarely easy

You are neither trying to win over the Neo-Nazi nor you are condemning the Neo-Nazi.

Instead, you are attacking those who condemn a Neo-Nazi, the sure fire way to win us and the Neo-Nazi over.

Why don't you do the right thing and tell JonTron how much you love him and spare us?

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views.

Pretending you are arguing in faith ... how do you know they are not sharing his views? And why does opposing a Neo-Nazi pain you so much?

 

[Prithee Be Careful]

Good luck winning people who see others as inferior just by the colour of their skin. I will be cheering you on

Difficult jobs are definitely things you should avoid doing, particularly if they can make a real difference... truth be told, if you manage to change the mind of one eligble voter, you've made an infinitely bigger contribution than somebody who just stands there megaphoning about things they find objectionable.

Again, if you've got any better ideas, I'm sure everyone's all ears.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Why do you want a statement? What are you expecting them to say? The company aren't guilty of his views. How much work and money goes into making these kinds of changes? You're not affecting JonTron, he already got paid. The only people you're affecting are the innocent employees and their families. A statement does nothing but give you an ego boost. So tell me what's the good out of that situation?

Silence is tacit approval of there being a place in the industry for people who are proud white supremacists.

 

[Elephant]

That's funny, considering there are non-white employees that worked on the game who are less than happy about their employers lack of response about JonTron. What was that about an ego-boost again, because to me it seems like you're assuming their position and using that to bolster your argument.

I did, I made the assumption that if the game suffers out of association, there'll be financial repercussions for everyone.