Why are you equating a pro player's content to ours? Additionally why are you putting a normal gamer's status up to the pros? This comparison seems absurd. This entire argumentation is absurd.
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Polygon: Riot Games isn't worried about Valve's $10M Dota 2 prize pool, here's why
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
Why are you equating a pro player's content to ours? Additionally why are you putting a normal gamer's status up to the pros? This comparison seems absurd. This entire argumentation is absurd.
If you want to have an actual debate about business models and how each game's competative meta works...
It would help not to repeat incorrect stereotypes gotten from the LoL general forums.
Dota is not all about counter picking just like League isn't only about picking the top 10-20 heroes that Riot hasent nerfed into the ground, that both sides like to perpetuate.
I can see how you might think me comparing a normal player to the pros is absurd. But my argument about the champions is objectively true. A game offering everything gameplay related for free with no extra time or money put in versus a game that locks champions behind time played/money spent?
One is objectively friendlier to the consumer than the other.
"We wish Blizzard wasn't going after the Dota and LoL money."
Those selling points aren't very strong either.
Having multiple big and small tournaments over the year is like real sports too. Tennis for example works just fine like that. Considering most tournaments culminate in "lan finals" it makes sense to organise them like that, rather than one big league. By now quite a few 200k+ prize money tournaments have established themselves. Apart from the month after TI there's high quality Dota all year round.
Teams are really stable in DOTA too, the reason is simple, if you haven't been toghether for a while you don't get a direct invite to TI and everyone wants to go to TI.
Gully State
Member
I know nothing about LoL's pro scene so I can only chime in on DOTA's. I think for the most part, it's an amazing community that seems to be thriving more and more year after year. I feel like this year was especially solid even if you look outside of TI. There were plenty of tourneys with big prize pools for the top teams. Heck, you could earn quite a bit of money doing well in a lot of tourneys outside of TI. This obviously wasn't the case during TI2 and leading up to TI3. The scene has definitely grown by leaps and bounds this last year. Just casually looking at viewership numbers, non TI tourneys have grown significantly. We used to have 10K as good numbers for non TI tourneys but 30-50K and beyond is pretty normal these days. Decentralizing the league also leads to more interesting experiments in competitive formats. I thought the most enjoyable tournament this year outside the International was the Beyond the Summit's, The Summit. This was basically a 6 team LAN event that allowed for a more intimate atmosphere due to its location (BTS house). You had pro players jump in for off the cuff casting and an inside look of the studio. Having all the teams together in this manner also allowed for more low key interactions and it really gave the viewer a sense of being there on the couch watching the tournament unfold.
Fotheringay
Member
Wasn't that pic put out by Garena, not Riot?
that's a fair point but valves position has always been to let the community sort out these issues. It's a dangerous thing to have a single company be responsible for all tournaments and player salaries in the competitive scene. The important thing to note with Dota 2 is that salaries and support(such as equipment, boot camp, travel) from esports organizations have increased and the price pools of independent tournaments are quickly growing larger. It's really all about developing business models that allow organizations and content creators to experiment with different paths to earn money(while valve takes their cut). In my opinion that's a much more democratic system that will allow the game to prosper for a longer time while keeping the community happy and involved.
In addition to that, with the introduction of the dota 2 workshop tools and custom maps I only see Dota 2 continuing to grow at the same pace or faster for the foreseeable future.
Wolf Akela
Member
Not this stupid ass image again. This is Garena, not Riot. Just go to Garena's website and you'll see the similarity in the theme. They've always been shady. They even marketed some other F2P FPS as Counterstrike 2.
ashecitism
Member
And Valve aren't?
It seems to me like they are trying to make a big splash.
One change I would like to see is for Valve to take 50% of the money for compendiums and then split the other 50 between prize pool and a charity. I think that would be really great without affecting the prize pool. The compendium is esentially free money anyways. I mean Valve puts some work into it but I don't think it's 30 million dollars worth of work.
20 million is still fantastic and a charity would see a huge benefit from a 10 million dollar payout,
20 million is still fantastic and a charity would see a huge benefit from a 10 million dollar payout,
wonderdung
Member
I thought it was closer to 20k a split per player, but you'd have to look up Marn's numbers from the payment controversy to be sure.
One thing you didn't mention is streaming revenues which can run into 6 figures for the more popular players.
Also... kind of hilarious that people in this thread are suggesting that LoL's popularity is a conspiracy. Please. If you're that sick of it being on top all you have to do is wait. Most of my friends have lost interest over the course of season 4.
They've been steadily commited since the game came out, both for the game and TI. For the competitive scene they have developed tools and a market where tournament organisers can sell tickets to support the tournament. Dota also has the best spectator and replay client in videogames.
Valve is also famous for supporting their other multiplayer games for along time.
What gives you the impression they are just trying to make a big splash?
nephilimdj
Member
That image is from LOL beta in 2010, long before DOTA2 was even announced
Hon did similar advertising with "next gen DOTA"
I think Riots biggest issue is how the client is so outdated, every patch breaks something. Seems like everyday there is a new announcement of something disabled.
I think it helps that tons of old veterans from NA act like Kayne west and people seem to love it. LCS stuff is crazy
10 MILLION DOLLARS! I'd assume he heard about the money and thought Valve was just frontloading a big amount presumably without understanding it came from a hugely supportive community. The truth is that with the tools that Valve has put in place they could live a lifesupport team on Dota tomorrow and the hats would continue to flow.
lukeskymac
Member
Can't stand the thought of anything that might diminish LORD GABEN's sacred image, huh?
lukeskymac
Member
The amount of ignorance on this one is astounding.
Plenty of sports don't run on a league system, both are perfectly valid ways to do things.
I think he just means selling a commodity is not begging. It'd be like saying every company ever is begging. Valve let you know that they'd use part of the money for the actual thing you got to fund the International but the prize pool isn't what you were buying. It was the Compendium and associated rewards that you bought. Lord Gaben sold people an e-book with some trinkets and they lapped it up.
Holding your heroes hostage is some thirsty shit though.
This is unnecessarily salty. Seems Riot is at least a little jealous of Dota's growth. Valve wasn't really begging anyone, just giving them an opportunity to support the game (and community) that they play. In return for buying a compendium, you got ingame stuff. No different than any other value proposition.
It's also disingenuous, because Valve puts in a certain amount to the pool regardless of what goes on with the compendium.
I'm sorry but what?
Aeriscloud
Banned
SlickShoes
Member
How old is that ad?
More importantly though, Valve defies gravity and their Steam platform is untouchable. No other western developer/publisher has this position.
I don't think LoL or WoT can survive on hats.
I'll be really surprised if Riot doesn't follow this footstep and came with a similar model. Even if their fanbase might be less dedicated on average dota ones, and that's a if, the sheer size of itself is still multiple times bigger.
They are not going to leave money on the table after Valve make a killing with compendium. At least, I don't think Tencent is that stupid.
They are not going to leave money on the table after Valve make a killing with compendium. At least, I don't think Tencent is that stupid.
Prototype Viktor
Member
but you only need to know one..The General aka TheOddOne (and not the gaf user)
Sentenza
Member
It's strange that people are arguing for several pages about the prize pool and how it will affect viewers' perception... And yet, unless I missed something, no one pointed that if it keeps consolidating or even growing it will become a strong (and I mean STRONG) draw for top players in the competitive scene.
"Pro" players will inevitably end competing where they feel there's more to gain.
Also, the reasoning behind the "Well, me plan more tournaments, more often" is a bit bogus, mostly because "they are planning" but not doing it right now, which as consequence makes TI the main event, and there's nothing suggesting Valve itself doesn't have similar plans in the long term.
They were boring mostly because they were two curb-stomp defeats without any particularly impressive highlight of skill and with the losing team throwing the towel barely 10-15 minutes into each match.
"Pro" players will inevitably end competing where they feel there's more to gain.
Also, the reasoning behind the "Well, me plan more tournaments, more often" is a bit bogus, mostly because "they are planning" but not doing it right now, which as consequence makes TI the main event, and there's nothing suggesting Valve itself doesn't have similar plans in the long term.
That's... pretty much the opposite of what actually happened.
They were boring mostly because they were two curb-stomp defeats without any particularly impressive highlight of skill and with the losing team throwing the towel barely 10-15 minutes into each match.
For those wondering about the longevity of Dota 2, take a look at some of the modding tools that Valve has recently released. eSports growth aside, I wouldn't be surprised if the modding community formed by the eventual release of hundreds of custom games outlast both LCS and TI scenes.
Diprosalic
Banned
that was a picture to convince people going from DotA1 to LoL. iirc.
wow... this is odd. doesn't make any sense to me. All profit any company makes is "free money" then? Might as well give 50% of that to charities?
I don't think Dota 2 players decided to purely give valve $9+million prize pool (over $40 million overall) just for the tournament, it was also for the features/virtual_items which Valve had decided to put at certain milestones up the purchase/pay ladder pool.
If general/casual players started donating money for some international tournament for charity, I'd be completely surprised. But this isn't the case, a portion of the players purchased anything related to the tournament because there were something interesting attached to such purchases.
Edit: So this shoots back at League of Legends developers, do they have something interesting to offer to the players who can make such purchases? or are they such players in the first place, those who can afford to make purchases inside the game?
Edit 2
Edit 3: Correction from my end; when I meant charity..I meant giving money to Valve's tournament.
I am surprised.
This also means the playing community actually cares about the tournaments and players in them, but does RIOT has such support from the community?
If general/casual players started donating money for some international tournament for charity, I'd be completely surprised. But this isn't the case, a portion of the players purchased anything related to the tournament because there were something interesting attached to such purchases.
Edit: So this shoots back at League of Legends developers, do they have something interesting to offer to the players who can make such purchases? or are they such players in the first place, those who can afford to make purchases inside the game?
Edit 2
Edit 3: Correction from my end; when I meant charity..I meant giving money to Valve's tournament.
I am surprised.
This also means the playing community actually cares about the tournaments and players in them, but does RIOT has such support from the community?
I personally bought it solely to support the tournament/players. Never bothered to level it up, items are a nice bonus but I never cared much about cosmetics. If I want to support a charity I go do so by my own accord directly. Valve giving part of compendium money to charities would rub me the wrong way - in that case why not have that part as well added to the price pool? The suggestion doesn't make any sense.
A more efficient solution for a reputable charity would be to commission an item for the shop with some/all of the money going to the charity.
Similar principle as this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2717672
On crowdfunding tournies, the Dota community has done it for many tournaments since the concept was born with TI3. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Premier_Tournaments
Offer value in cosmetics (and other things), add the goodwill of aiding the prize pool, make money. TI makes the most because it's the biggest tournament and offers the most value for your money. It's neither begging nor any sort of charity.
Similar principle as this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2717672
On crowdfunding tournies, the Dota community has done it for many tournaments since the concept was born with TI3. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Premier_Tournaments
Offer value in cosmetics (and other things), add the goodwill of aiding the prize pool, make money. TI makes the most because it's the biggest tournament and offers the most value for your money. It's neither begging nor any sort of charity.
lukeskymac
Member
Irony in what? You don't see me licking Riot's feet in this forum; that image isn't related to them, that's just fact.
I think the LCS model is more stable but they could do compendiums from time to time too. It's just fun for the community.
I like all the contests Riot gives out, because I'm able to participate in most of them, but not everyone can draw/cosplay so donating money would be a nice way for everyone to contribute to their favorite game
I like all the contests Riot gives out, because I'm able to participate in most of them, but not everyone can draw/cosplay so donating money would be a nice way for everyone to contribute to their favorite game
You mean the people that popularized the games as service model?
I like that fact that Dota 2 has many gaming events a year taking place in Asia, Europe and America.
It's a lot like fighting gaming events, you have Evo being the main big one but you still have many other fighting events around the world.
I have no idea how LoL events go or how many.
It's a lot like fighting gaming events, you have Evo being the main big one but you still have many other fighting events around the world.
I have no idea how LoL events go or how many.
The LCS model is more stable from a team branding standpoint. People should also understand that is not just North American LCS and European LCS that the scenes that people are looking at there is the Chinese's league scene the OGN and the southeast Asia scene that have heavy following. At some point they will add a South American league tourney of some kind because there is a lot of growth in that area. On top of that Riot has pushed from for an amateur tourney as well. Riot has the advantage of a nine month tournament that they have made very easy for people to follow. Also it should be noted that there are smaller non Riot tournaments that exist they don't get LCS numbers but they do well.
http://na.lolesports.com is a go place to look up past vods and the upcoming schedule for the league scene.
innervision961
Member
AAA Post my friend. Couldn't have said it better. I think the feeling like you're a part of something in dota2 is amazing. I can't quiet figure out how, but this game had a hold on me like none before. And that's saying something because I despised it for years and just started up because ot TI this year. (The absurd prize pool piqued my interest, hadn't touched it since beta)
I only watch the NA scene even though I'm EUW because I like the personalities. I've stopped watching since spring and with all the roster changes (looking at you TSM) after a couple of matches I lost interest. It's not anyone's fault though.
Also are you Sky?