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Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
I thought it was said to release Q1 next year
justsomeguy
Member
You're massively downplaying or underestimating the impact of early adopters and word-of-mouth here IMO. The Nielsen report last year showed the #1 reason for people buying a PS4 was superior resolution (albeit it wasn't clear if that was their reason for picking PS4 over XBox One, or just in absolute terms why they switched gen, or both).
Agreed re. WW appeal - we just differ on what impact being "second most powerful, and the most expensive" at launch had. So you think MS just need to drop the XBox One price and let the Neo go off into the distance? That seems unlikely to succeed, to me. Again I think you're downplaying the impact of power and word of mouth.
Look at the reaction Star Fox got recently (at least from me
) - terrible graphics by today's standards. Xbox One would very quickly become the "terrible graphics" box compared to Neo. I'm not sure there's a market for a $150 box to play 900p games at 25 fps in a market where Neo doing 1080p/60. Even if the price is $150 vs. $300 or whatever it ends up being.You said new hardware doesn't matter and a price cut/games was more important. So if MS just drop the price on the xbox one again with the slim, then Sony doesn't get the 12 months' free reign, by your logic.
Letting gamers know that there is a box 50% more powerful than Neo coming, albeit a way out, may just influence those early adopters/"power" console gamers to hold fire and wait for MS' offering, and it will certainly weaken Sony's messaging around the PS4k, both of which are totally valid business strategies.
edit: According to that B3D post, no NEO this year means ~6 months of gap. Manageable IMO.
Your point about the size of the digital library and investment in the platform is exceptionally well made. It's a huge, huge hurdle for the second-place player. However.. you think MS should just give up and go home? Or their only answer is to keep reducing the Xbox One price until it's given away free with breakfast cereal? Or should they wait until Sony launch the PS5 and then launch their new console?
amstradcpc
Member
Last thing wasn´t October?.
I definitely agree that many people simply care about games but saying that the "900p vs. 1080p" talk hasn't played a role in how things currently are -- especially as to why the Xbox One isn't as dominant as the 360 was in the US and UK isn't really telling the true history of how this current gen has gone in my opinion.
But the Xbox One isn't doing as well as the 360 did in those territories against PlayStation so there's definitely room to grow/improve in my opinion.
And I'm saying that this will more than likely never happen for the Xbox brand as those territories will simply never have an interest in the brand no matter the (solid) effort from MS. I feel that this plays a role in why MS are bringing console exclusives to PC. People in territories outside of US and UK may be far more interested in playing Xbox titles on PC (a device they already own) in comparison to buying an Xbox console to play these games.
MS gaining in US and UK though would definitely help as it would make their position closer to how things were with the 360 instead of how they currently are with the Xbox One.
Same was true for the PS3 last gen. Fighting games and RPGs still sold better on the PS3 in comparison to the Xbox 360 because it was what the Playstation brand was known for. Again, I definitely agree that power is not the most important trait but it definitely should help -- especially as seemingly more people are buying consoles to simply play multiplatform games.
But this time everything that we bought on PS4 & Xbox One will work on the Neo & Scorpio so it's definitely different in that sense. It's not a complete refresh as things were from this gen to last gen since compatibility with the old will be there at launch. People (seemingly) won't have to buy a "new console version" of a game that they already own for their older console since games will scale & download visual content based on what system they are being played on. This is on top of accessories more than likely being compatible too.
What people have now should work on what's coming out in the future and that's very different from the PS3/360 --> PS4/Xbox One transition.
I really don't see how it's foolish, especially if the PS4 Neo won't be marketed as a "next gen" console. If the Xbox Scorpio gets marketed as a next gen console from MS that simply has full compatibility with Xbox One then that may be very attractive to many gamers in the US and UK thus creating a gain that will continue on until whenever the next Playstation system (the one after Neo) launches.
I don't fully agree considering a part of that (eventually) 63-65 million userbase would be UK and American gamers who bought the original PS4 due to it being the more powerful console for multiplats. Some of those people would definitely stay with Playstation but not all if the power advantage for many of the best selling games (i.e. multiplats) changes.
I definitely feel that Playstation will always have the greater userbase worldwide -- especially if people who will move from the PS4/PS4 Neo and go to Xbox Scorpio will still count as being people in that Playstation userbase. I just also feel that the Xbox brand's position would improve if the Scorpio is as powerful as rumors are stating and it releases at an acceptable price (nothing more than $400) since the visually better version of third party games matters to people in the US and UK. The Playstation brand wouldn't have made as big of gains in these territories in comparison to how things were during the PS3 gen if power didn't matter at all.
MS doesn't have to sell the most to be successful.
CrispyBoar
Banned
Doesn't matter if "Scorpio" is much more powerful than "Neo" is.
If anything, most 3rd party publishers/developers will continue to make PS4 versions of games the lead/base platform while downgrading Xbox One versions of games because of the largest userbase that PS4 has over Xbox One in general.
These aren't exactly next gen consoles we're talking about here.
justsomeguy
Member
Of course. Sony wanted people to talk about the differences in power and it is totally clear why they wanted it. It is giving you an advantage in perception by the hardcore fans which will get to the media and the media will tell it to a broader audience. Nothing wrong with that, especially considering that the Xbone was also more expensive than the more powerful PS4 in the beginning.
People don't want to buy inferior products and what would be easier to compare products by raw numbers? I mean, give me 1 dollar for everytime someone on GAF posted the spec comparison of the two consoles. I could have a nice holiday
Jesus you're quick, I edited that out in about 10 seconds because it wasn't quite the point I was trying to make :lol:
edit: I totally agree with you though! I can't believe the people trying to downplay the power difference now, lol, it does make me wonder where they were / are when other people talk about xbone being weaker.
Broken Hope
Member
Let me guess Nintendo will release NX with less power than the Original XB1 and Sony and Microsoft will again have consoles that are vastly more powerful so NX still won't get 3rd party support?
amstradcpc
Member
I would say this is not a one-chip APU, too much hot from the GPU part to be an APU. It could be a SOC-like APU with Zen cpu and HBM2 memory on an interposer. Like the one rumored months ago.
Risk Breaker
Member
They didn't even get the TFLOP number for the Xbone correctly. It's 1.23, not 1.32.
Having both the least powerful and the most powerful SKUs at the same time would be weeeeird, and having 4x power "wasted" on the same game with just a few improved things, but MS has done weirder things many times, so...
Having both the least powerful and the most powerful SKUs at the same time would be weeeeird, and having 4x power "wasted" on the same game with just a few improved things, but MS has done weirder things many times, so...
dragonelite
Member
I think Microsoft just want people in the Xbox/Windows media ecosystem. Also dont think
They see Sony as a competitor in that space.
They are probably worrying about Apple and googles en trance into that space.
paradise_circus
Member
6 tflops sounds huge. let's see how Sony and Ms will manage the forward compatibility of the current consoles, if at all.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Of course not. The only good things come from Sony
Of course it is also the CPU. What do you realistically expect? By that number, it will better than an PS4k. But is that so important that we have to have posts that try to put a "realistic" view on it?
Both manufacturers can only put in what the market offers. Neither PS4k, nor Xbox2 will be high end devices because of their prices. Neither will have groundbreaking tech nobody knows about, the effect of "coding to the metal" will be smaller than ever and people hyped about hardware will also disappear. Both are going the PC route and hardware enthusiasts will never be impressed again because there will never be "secret" hardware again in a console. Only off-the-shelf hardware with perhaps some small modifications.
Don't be so touchy about it lol.
Point is, the PS4 Neo is releasing this year as far as we know so its specs are in line with that. I actually think the Scorpio lines up in exactly the same performance bracket for its time if it releases end of 2017.
By that time AMD Vega will be old news and we'll be close to Navi GPUs which will pack around 12+ tflops. Scorpio will look extremely underpowered compared to the high-end at the time.
It may not be coming this year.
SaucyJack
Member
I am drawn to the word TARGETING in the report for some reason.
Sony are apparently about to release something and according to Polygon Microsoft are targeting something even more powerful than that at some vague point in the future. How very convenient.
And 6 Tflops is what, a Titan X? A $1,200 card! Colour me sceptical.
Of course, it may be true but when you have form you can't complain if people doubt you.
Well, actually I had to go back in my browser to see your post how it was because I wondered where the information went
Preparation for the apparently inevitable: going from team win to team loose (in terms of power). We will probably see arguments like "I don't care for less power because exclusives is where it counts" or "look at what ND is able to do with that hardware, I am fine with PS4k". Which is of course ok but I think some of these people will be the same that go to DF threads to show how much more powerful the PS4 is in comparison to Xbone.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
I honesty hope they (Sony and MS) lower the price of the base model as much as possible but go all in for the s versions. Like 800 of power !
THE:MILKMAN
Member
If Neo and Scorpio are next year where are AMD's announced extra 2016 profits coming from for late 2016? Just the two Xbox revisions? If Neo is next year will there be a PS4 slim this year?
I still can't fathom why Sony shared such detailed info with retail so early though. May be both are trying to fake each other out?
SplitYourInfinities
Member
I don't think that the PS4K is coming out this year. I mean, Sony is already releasing an expensive platform this fall, it wouldn't be smart.
Got the feeling that the most promising strategy for either MS or Sony would be to not give in to this upgrade wars and hold on to their respective consoles. I don't think consumers will be all too happy about all this confusion and fragmentation. Personally I prefer console gaming (with some exceptions like Dota and Civ) because I got fatigued by the upgrading hassle. And now it leaks to consoles. To be perfectly honest, it makes me want to go back to PC gaming.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
I see many comments that Neo would have a head start if its true that Scorpio is a late 2017 vs early 2017 stuff. To be honest, a head start will not make a difference. It is not as important as it was before in the sense that, every game from 3rd party that comes on Neo, will be out as well on Scorpio. (Remember that many games are released as Console and PC)
So yeah, Neo most likely will be out before but both (most likely) will be battling it out for xmas 2017. Every game that will be on Neo, will be on Scorpio as well, so lack of games because of late entry will not be an issue.
Then we have the potential VR connection/push. VR, most likely, will have a breakout year during 2017 due to current high price. During next year, prices will decrease a bit and more must have software will be out, making VR more compelling.
For MS, to have a machine that is VR ready for next year, and that can handle Rift (and Vive) from a performance standpoint, could mean that MS could ride the VR wave and get an extra push because of that.
So basically, even though Scorpio will come out late, it will not matter because it will not affect it software wise. And considering other factors, like VR, it can actually benefit from coming out late, if it allows MS to have a hardware that is capable of handling VR without breaking the bank.
Lastly, the thing is.. MS is such a huge company, with an immense financial warchest. Whether MS is "losing" or "winning" is totally up to MS themselves. They have the wealth to stear things at their direction. The only problem is focus. If MS can focus as they did with OG Xbox and to an extent 360, then it can be a successfull product.
So let´s see how VR will perform during next year and that will tell you how Scorpio will do..
So yeah, Neo most likely will be out before but both (most likely) will be battling it out for xmas 2017. Every game that will be on Neo, will be on Scorpio as well, so lack of games because of late entry will not be an issue.
Then we have the potential VR connection/push. VR, most likely, will have a breakout year during 2017 due to current high price. During next year, prices will decrease a bit and more must have software will be out, making VR more compelling.
For MS, to have a machine that is VR ready for next year, and that can handle Rift (and Vive) from a performance standpoint, could mean that MS could ride the VR wave and get an extra push because of that.
So basically, even though Scorpio will come out late, it will not matter because it will not affect it software wise. And considering other factors, like VR, it can actually benefit from coming out late, if it allows MS to have a hardware that is capable of handling VR without breaking the bank.
Lastly, the thing is.. MS is such a huge company, with an immense financial warchest. Whether MS is "losing" or "winning" is totally up to MS themselves. They have the wealth to stear things at their direction. The only problem is focus. If MS can focus as they did with OG Xbox and to an extent 360, then it can be a successfull product.
So let´s see how VR will perform during next year and that will tell you how Scorpio will do..
As PS4k will be this year. This is not being touchy but you trying to put a wrong image of the system and Xbox as a whole in many posts.
Again, both consoles will *never* be high end because they can't. The price forbids high end. That said, going by MS plans, you are free to build your "own Xbox": build your own PC, put in whatever you want and turn your Windows 10 into an Xbox with the same interface. MS is just building hardware for you.
I think it will take some time to adjust ourselves to this strategy and platform idea but this is where they are heading. You even can build your PC right now and make it more powerful than PS4k and Xbox2 will be when they release and when MS releases the necessary updates, it will be an (x)box that will be the best console spec-wise for you.
Tarin02543
Member
if this thing uses Puma/LAgear/Airmax with 18 cores, it will be a beast!
amstradcpc
Member
DonMigs85
Member
Can you imagine having different console versions on the shelf and having to explain it to the average mom or child? Not to mention it's a shelf space nightmare, and they'll likely have to deal with a ton of unsold inventory.
Definitely agree with this. Already owned Xbox One games will turn into Xbox Scorpio games due to compatibility, and Scorpio users will be able to play games with (original) Xbox One users.
The only thing that I'm questioning is how the Xbox Scorpio userbase will be counted. Will the Xbox One userbase be added on to the Xbox Scorpio userbase due to compatibility or would MS marketing the Scorpio as a "next gen Xbox" change that?
CrispyBoar
Banned
Here we go with this thinking again...
Why do posters keep thinking that just because Microsoft has a lot of money, that they'll continue to throw infinite amounts of it on Xbox in general forever?
Sony's expecting to sell 20 million console units in their current fiscal year. A March release for PS4K would be too late to (significantly) help with that number and similarly a PS4 price drop alone. They need both to happen this year to be able to hit those crazy estimates me thinks. The PSVR won't slow console adoption down by being available (rather the opposite) as it is a premium peripheral.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Oh shit.
I love this. Let's get some really power competition going again. Much needed.
I love this. Let's get some really power competition going again. Much needed.
If it's 5-6Tflops overall, not just for the GPU, that might make the ballpark more like 20-25% more powerful than the rumoured Neo spec on the GPU side, rather than 40-50%... Depending on the CPU.
Which would be kind of a small improvement by comparison, if there's really a ~12 month gap between the two.
Then again, maybe Neo isn't coming this year?
Which would be kind of a small improvement by comparison, if there's really a ~12 month gap between the two.
Then again, maybe Neo isn't coming this year?
Ah yes. They are losing because they chose to lose otherwise their infinite warchest means they can win. I mean look at Windows phone. OG xbox was anything but a successful product too.
MilkyJoe
Member
Those shady inside sources
Seem's MS want to remove some of that inferior performance stigma, trouble is would people jump platforms on a mid gen iteration? especially if both iterations give full library compatibility, it's a hell of a lead PlayStation has already.
That's the $50,000 question.
A lot of Xbox people jumped ship, but MS still has some advantages over PS.
Also people need to remember the current customers are not the only customers, new people are born every day, and kids get older every day, so there is always going to be a steady supply of new customers.
Depends. Even if these upgraded consoles are way more powerful, 3rd party's ain't going to drop xbone/ps4 support anytime soon. So as long as the NX is decently close to those they should be OK on the power front for a while.
The same notion was often raised during Durango/Orbis era. Fast forward to the end of 2013 and we had next-gen consoles with $399 and $499 price tag.
amstradcpc
Member
They have two options:
-Or they launch in October taking advantage of christmas sales and near a one year advantage
-or they launch near the sime time.
Being underpowered only have sense with the first option.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Maybe people are being more negative about the Xbox Scorpio because they see it as largely pointless. As you say. you can build your own PC or buy one that is much more powerful and play every single one of its games, probably for cheaper prices. In this sense, MS's strategy is a confusing one.
With the PS4/Neo, you know you are getting a batch of top-tier AAA exclusives like Bloodborne, Uncharted 4, GoW etc that you cannot play anywhere else. You can't build a PC to play these games. You also won't be able to play any of the many exclusive PS VR titles Sony has in the works.
On the other hand, MS are trying to team up with Occulus and get their VR games on Xbox Scorpio as well. Again, what's the point when you can play them better on PC with higher settings.
So you're saying that Microsoft decided they were not going to win with Xbox One? That they purposely dropped the ball during the months of the Xbox One's reveal? Microsoft made a lot of mistakes this generation, and not one of those mistakes were something they decided to do simply because they felt the need to give the Xbox One a bad rep for the first year (and maybe a bit after). They could of did a better job of turning things around with their loaded pockets, but they didn't.
Go on, say it....something about shareholders? When this argument comes up, and with Elop being talked about replacing Ballmer earlier in the gen, people where were buzzing with the thought of xbox department being sold off, shareholders (lol) were unhappy but it looks like they're doubling down and investing even more into the brand (rumours of multiple devices and universal apps). So it doesn't seem like he's far off with his statement at least there's reason to believe it to be true the the tired 'but shareholders' argument used when this comes up.
You could always play better versions of most games on PC yet these consoles make up the majority of gamers, so it's a moot point. Fot alot of people Gaming on PC isn't the preferred option.
amstradcpc
Member
Jaguar is near 100 Gflops in consoles. At 2,1 Ghz is not too far from that. Not a lot of flops to make a difference in the flops metric.
Obscuritas
Member
VR won't definitely be a large factor in this iterative-hardware war. It's just too soon.
And yeah, winning is not as simple as wasting your war chest's money. They are already doing it since 2001.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
I am not saying that just because X they can do Y.
There are many factors... however, for arguments sake (and this is just for arguments sakes) that one day Satya Nadella wakes up and thinks that Xbox should be the most awesomest videogames platform ever, then there is the potential to throw lots of money into Xbox.
I remember meeting with J Allard at X02 in Seville and we talked abit about the financial aspect of Xbox (when MS was bleeding money just to establish the brand) and he said that they had no problem continuing doing that for 10-15 years if that was what it would take.
Now, MS has different leadership now and the question for MS is, how important is Xbox to the whole Windows ecosystem? The more important, the more resources will be steared that way..
AusRoachman
Member
The real question is how much more power will it be with the cloud ?
Seriously though as someone who bought Xbox one and ps4 around launch I'm a little annoyed I may have to upgrade again, especially now that both seem to be hitting there strides in terms of games , but if Scorpio is still late next year that's not so bad , but I will probably have to drop down to a 1 console ecosystem .
Hopefully Xbox one / ps4 games will continue to be supported for years to come so I don't feel too shafted .
Looks like they have a chance to drop all the stupid shit (Kinect / tv integration ) and just focus on a pure gaming machine which is one good thing. Also now they have win10 integration they can focus on not rewriting there os every year and keep it in sync with win10.
In the end it all comes down to games so bring on e3
Seriously though as someone who bought Xbox one and ps4 around launch I'm a little annoyed I may have to upgrade again, especially now that both seem to be hitting there strides in terms of games , but if Scorpio is still late next year that's not so bad , but I will probably have to drop down to a 1 console ecosystem .
Hopefully Xbox one / ps4 games will continue to be supported for years to come so I don't feel too shafted .
Looks like they have a chance to drop all the stupid shit (Kinect / tv integration ) and just focus on a pure gaming machine which is one good thing. Also now they have win10 integration they can focus on not rewriting there os every year and keep it in sync with win10.
In the end it all comes down to games so bring on e3
CrispyBoar
Banned
I'm sorry, but that "infinite warchest" shit's getting old & tired now.
People seem to think that just because they have money & that Xbox is branded with Windows, that they'll continue to pour money into it without expecting a return, LOL. They know nothing about business, including yourself.
And if they continue to do so just for the sake of it, then they're certainly a clueless company. If I were CEO of the company, I would've gotten rid of Xbox as well as others like Bing a long time ago because they're big money sinks & focus on products that does make money.
But you also get games on PC you can't play on Playstation. MS doesn't really care if you buy the Xbox hardware and play their games or do it on your PC. Software is where the money is.
It's basically not PS/XBox/PC anymore but PS/PC. You are free to buy the hardware prebuilt for you but you don't have to. I don't see how this is confusing at all.
The thing is that many people don't want to build their own PC and you have to take care of that the hardware runs well and is powerful enough to be able to play all the games while with the MS hardware it takes care for you for that.