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[ScaryShark]

The ground rules for the competition are that VAC banned players are not allowed to compete.
He is a VAC banned player.

I mean... its pretty clear cut as to why being VAC banned affects his entry into this competition.

It's not clear though. What relevance, outside of breaking a rule (I really hope the people supporting this decision don't support all rules/laws just merely for existing), does it have on this being a fair competition against the best players of this game?

The entire debate is on the rule's existence and if it even makes sense. Citing that the rule exists isn't a counterpoint.

If I'm a CS:GO fan there is no way I'd be in support of this. I want the best people competing. I wouldn't want 3 year old transgressions, irrelevant to skill or talent, to have an effect on this tournament.

 

[LordRaptor]

Life time bans for a single instance of cheating are hardly typical in traditional sports.

"Lifetime bans" in sports can actually mean a lifetime.
How confident are you that specifically CS:GO will be a viable eSport in 5 years time?

e:

It's not clear though. What relevance, outside of breaking a rule (I really hope the people supporting this decision don't support all rules/laws just merely for existing), does it have on this being a fair competition against the best players of this game?

If I'm a CS:GO fan there is no way I'd be in support of this. I want the best people competing. I wouldn't want 3 year old transgressions, irrelevant to skill or talent, to have an effect on this tournament.

What relevance?
It is the official policy of the competition.

 

[Shin]

He knowingly cheated, age doesn't matter, he very well knew how to find/get cheats and used them.
Pro player or not, the very same thing is plaguing CSGO and probably other online games, hell even yesterday I had a cheater banned (notice popped up in-game when I logged in).

 

[Budi]

So anyone who ever made a joke alt account during XBL free weekends is now banned from esports forever. Simple.

If they used cheats on that alt account, then yes. Otherwise no.

It's not clear though. What relevance, outside of breaking a rule (I really hope the people supporting this decision don't support all rules/laws just merely for existing), does it have on this being a fair competition against the best players of this game?

The entire debate is on the rule's existence and if it even makes sense. Citing that the rule exists isn't a counterpoint.

If I'm a CS:GO fan there is no way I'd be in support of this. I want the best people competing. I wouldn't want 3 year old transgressions, irrelevant to skill or talent, to have an effect on this tournament.

I'm all for giving second chances. But I don't think having the ban atleast for 3 years is a huge deal. Let's say it was 10 years ago, then I'd be also saying that let it go.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Never cheated myself but like most I have been the victim of a cheater. It is only human nature to go "ban em and throw away the key". However I am uncomfortable with the level of trust everyone places on these automated banning mechanisms it is especially scary when you consider the consequences are lifetime bans.

I feel as if the companies need to come up with a proper fair system with credible penalties but hey that would require time and effort. Yup much easier to just go with the one mistake and you are banned for life approach, far cheaper.

Does this guy deserve this because he cheated when he was 15, of course he doesn't. I mean seriously people are happy with lifetime bans for something as unimportant as games, jesus.

 

[Marcel]

I'll add that he could have disclosed his past bad behavior to the league organizers in the first place and hoped that they would grant him some leniency considering it was in the past and he has been clean since then. But he didn't. He wasn't actively dishonest or malicious but it is a lie by omission. I'm sure that didn't help his case.

 

[prag16]

Today I learned that gaf contains a TON of very vindictive, very petty, stubborn hardasses.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

If you think it's absurd, we likely aren't going to come to any kind of agreement. If people would rather watch skilled cheats/former cheats than marginally less skilled honest players, then I guess eSports will follow the path laid out by professional sports and all the baggage that brings too.

I just don't think that's the right path to follow. I'd rather champion honesty.

Here's the problem with the hard-line stance; it ignores circumstance. LeBron James is one of the best basketball players in the history of the game. He also happened to take gifts from sponsors in high school, a violation of rules regarding amateurs. If the NBA had taken a hard-line stance on that, we would never have seen a generational talent on the big stage. They considered the circumstances, said "this is a completely victimless crime," and pretty much everyone can agree that was the right call.

So, yes, I would like to see eSports move towards the professional sports model. And part of that model is independent review that can overturn suspensions and bans based on individual circumstances. In this case, the "any VAC ban ever prevents you from competing" rule is idiotic for precisely this reason. It doesn't take circumstances into account. It's mandatory minimum sentencing. Terrible policy for approaching criminal justice, terrible policy for administering a competitive league.

 

[LordRaptor]

Does this guy deserve this because he cheated when he was 15, of course he doesn't. I mean seriously people are happy with lifetime bans for something as unimportant as games, jesus.

But again, "lifetime ban" isn't as scary as it sounds.
Like... if you got lifetime banned from Quake 3 or UT2K4 back in the day, how disadvantaged are you today?

 

[CraigerGamer]

Cheating has consequences. 🤔

But consequences can be nuanced, right?

 

[Marcel]

Today I learned that gaf contains a TON of very vindictive, very petty, stubborn hardasses.

Being banned from a video game is not the end of your life, lol. This kid has plenty of time to get educated and get a day job, assuming he's done with games.

 

[mullet2000]

I'll add that he could have disclosed his past bad behavior to the league organizers and hoped that they would grant him some leniency considering it was in the past and he has been clean since then. But he didn't. He wasn't actively dishonest or malicious but it is a lie by omission.

That's not a far statement at all. It's like if I applied to a job at 7/11 and at my job interview I bring up that when I was 12 I shoplifted something from a 7/11. There's no benefit to bringing it up.

The cheating event could have also being so small and irrelavent to him that he hasn't even thought about it in 3 years, especially since he wasn't even an adult when he did it. We don't even know if this was a one time thing or a repeated thing.

 

[xir]

is it a life ban? Wasn't S1mple banned when he was 14 for like 5 years or something? Was that for cheating or BM?

 

[Reani]

Being banned from a video game is not the end of your life, lol. This kid has plenty of time to get educated and get a day job, assuming he's done with games.

do you say the same everytime youtuber gets banned for dmca claims or smth? "just get a real job?"
really?

 

[zerokoolpsx]

How did they know it was his smurf account in the first place? Its unfortunate that his VAC ban on that smurf account penalized him now, but rules are rules. They could at least given his team the opportunity to replace him, instead of punishing them all with DQ. Punish the player is reasonable, but the whole team is definitely stretching it.

Valve doesn't lift the VAC ban for any reason or circumstances either. Absolutely no tolerance for cheating.
My bro got his first steam account hacked and obviously the hacker got it VAC banned for cheating. He eventually gets it back, but the VAC ban is still there. If you're caught cheating, doesn't matter who did it, branded for eternity.
He since made a new steam account since then.

 

[ScaryShark]

What relevance?
It is the official policy of the competition.

...

I'm well aware. I'm arguing it's a terrible rule and irrelevant to the actual competition. You're not refuting me taking exception to a rule by just repeating that a rule exists.

No competitive advantage was gained in this match that deserves a retroactive disqualification of an entire team. If you have such stringent rules about VAC bans, then why wasn't this person vetted before they were allowed to compete?

The rule was only applied, after the fact, when an upset occurred. The 3-year old VAC had no bearing on the result of this match.

This rule would never apply to any other serious competition and it would never reverse the outcome of a game where no cheating actually occurred.

 

[prag16]

But again, "lifetime ban" isn't as scary as it sounds.
Like... if you got lifetime banned from Quake 3 or UT2K4 back in the day, how disadvantaged are you today?

It's not that simple. A VAC ban on Steam prevents you from ever again playing any online game on a VAC-secured server. There's a lower "game ban" that only bans you from that game. Doesn't sound like that's the case in this guy's situation. It says full blown VAC ban.

Valve doesn't lift the VAC ban for any reason or circumstances either. Absolutely no tolerance for cheating.
My bro got his first steam account hacked and obviously the hacker got it VAC banned for cheating. He eventually gets it back, but the VAC ban is still there. If you're caught cheating, doesn't matter who did it, branded for eternity.
He since made a new steam account since then.

He better hope he never aspires to turn pro in a game that uses VAC-secured servers. Some butthurt competitor may go all detective on his ass.

 

[uncredited male]

Hello I'm the father, my son did not cheat, it was his brother on the account. Please unban him valve

sincerely the father

 

[Imbarkus]

Neither of those two were banned for cheating. Currently in MLB getting caught for steroids is an 80 game suspension, and that's much stricter than it had previously been. Other forms of cheating see an 8 game suspension, which for starting pitchers is missing a single start in the rotation.

Lifetime bans for a single instance of cheating are hardly typical in traditional sports.

And... I realize it's a little off-topic, but I'm just a paying customer, with a lifetime VAC ban which my prepubescent son snagged me before I even knew the term. Shit happens, sometimes.

People rail against algorithms without appeal mediating things like Content ID, but the same people trust Cheater ID complicity.

Hello I'm the father, my son did not cheat, it was his brother on the account. Please unban him valve

sincerely the father

I'd just be happy with a 7 year expunge.

 

[Artanisix]

half of the csgo competitive scene are cheaters, surprised this is the only dude who gets banned tbh

 

[LordRaptor]

I'm well aware. I'm arguing it's a terrible rule and irrelevant to the actual competition.

You asked what relevance it had.
Its clear what the relevance is.

If you don't like the rules set by that competition, theres no obligation to participate in it.
Like... I don't understand what you're unclear about?

Competitions shouldn't be allowed to set terms and conditions of entry?

It's not that simple. A VAC ban on Steam prevents you from ever again playing any online game on a VAC-secured server. There's a lower "game ban" that only bans you from that game. Doesn't sound like that's the case in this guy's situation. It says full blown VAC ban.

I've literally never been VAC banned, so I'm not personally familiar, but as I understood it it was on a per game basis.
He'd best start training up in another FPS then.

 

[voOsh]

is it a life ban? Wasn't S1mple banned when he was 14 for like 5 years or something? Was that for cheating or BM?

This is actually a bit of a sore-subject within the CSGO community. s1mple was banned by the ESL anti-cheat client and admitted to it later. However, since he was never VAC banned he is still able to play all events.

 

[butzopower]

Not harsh enough, cheating should get you deported even if you are a citizen of the country you live in.

 

[prag16]

People rail against algorithms without appeal mediating things like Content ID, but the same people trust Cheater ID complicity.

Doesn't help when companies like BattlEye have a history of complaints about bullshit bannings, but have basically no appeal process and never overturn bans, and have extremely poor customer service (if you can even get in contact with them, which they make almost impossible to accomplish).

However I'm sure most of gaf here would respond to that with, "lol next time don't cheat, you liar.. you cheaty mccheatosaurus".

I've literally never been VAC banned, so I'm not personally familiar, but as I understood it it was on a per game basis.
He'd best start training up in another FPS then.

I think I was slightly incorrect. The ban won't apply to ALL games, but for example with CS:GO other games are under the umbrella that would be affected; mostly Valve games. It's entirely possible he's inherit the ban on the next CS game.

And other games that share the same anti-cheat system will have the ban potentially affect all such games (e.g. Arma 3, H1Z1, and DayZ would all be under the same umbrella).

 

[prag16]

Oops, double post.

 

[psn]

Happens all the time.

If anyone knows k0nf1g, he played for dignitas. I played with him for several years, he has at least 2 banned smurfs. He started cheating and began being cocky so I stopped playing with him. And then things like this happened:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYllUMj87d8

I bet that there are much much more hackers in the proplayer scene. Much more.

 

[Gamegeneral]

It sucks, but, I mean, how many MILLIONS of players aren't VAC Banned?

If it's so easy that they can do it, why couldn't you?

 

[shimon]

I don't know about lifetime...

 

[stan423321]

You asked what relevance it had.
Its clear what the relevance is.

If you don't like the rules set by that competition, theres no obligation to participate in it.
Like... I don't understand what you're unclear about?

Competitions shouldn't be allowed to set terms and conditions of entry?

No, the question was what's the relevance specifically aside from it being part of rules. You saying it's a part of rules specifically falls into that pigeonhole.

To get aside from semantics of the previous formulation, why is that rule needed? If I put up a rule banning whisky drinkers for life from competing in my tournament, that's a rule, alright, but even if it's a part of an AA party this rule doesn't appear to be particularly useful.

 

[Biscotti]

It's ok, I'm sure he would make more from streaming anyways. ( This is pretty bullshit though)

 

[Reani]

so if 3 years ago i gave no shits about csgo, played 1 game (literally the only one, friend gifted me the game) with hacks for lulz and got banned, then 3 years later i decide to give this game a second chance and become a professional player, according to many of you here i should be banned for life for daring to cheat in a public game once when i had zero intentions of playing it seriously at all.

good to know

 

[LordRaptor]

I think I was slightly incorrect. The ban won't apply to ALL games, but for example with CS:GO other games are under the umbrella that would be affected; mostly Valve games. It's entirely possible he's inherit the ban on the next CS game.

And other games that share the same anti-cheat system will have the ban potentially affect all such games (e.g. Arma 3, H1Z1, and DayZ would all be under the same umbrella).

Like I said upthread, I think there probably should be some kind of statute of limitations on VAC bans just in general, but the argument that being banned in Day Of Defeat should not affect entry to a CS:Source competition is a lot stronger than most of the arguments being put forward on his behalf ITT.

e:

No, the question was what's the relevance specifically aside from it being part of rules. You saying it's a part of rules specifically falls into that pigeonhole.

To get aside from semantics of the previous formulation, why is that rule needed? If I put up a rule banning whisky drinkers for life from competing in my tournament, that's a rule, alright, but even if it's a part of an AA party this rule doesn't appear to be particularly useful.

No, the follow up question was "okay, but how is it relevant excluding the very relevant thing that is the entire reason for his disqualifiaction?"
Host your own tournament and prizes and put up whatever rules you want, theres literally nobody stopping you.

 

[Budi]

so if 3 years ago i gave no shits about csgo, played 1 game (literally the only one, friend gifted me the game) with hacks for lulz and got banned, then 3 years later i decide to give this game a second chance and become a professional player, according to many of you here i should be banned for life for daring to cheat in a public game once when i had zero intentions of playing it seriously at all.

good to know

Why do you assume that people are advocating a ban for life and not just something more than 3 years. Cheaters ruin public games too btw.

 

[ScaryShark]

Competitions shouldn't be allowed to set terms and conditions of entry?

You're intentionally being dense, I get it, but your points are arguing things that aren't actually being discussed or are meaningful to the actual discussion.

 

[Reani]

Why do you assume that people are advocating a ban for life and not just something more than 3 years. Cheaters ruin public games too btw.

because that would make me VAC banned player and VAC bans are permanent. i am forever branded as a dirty cheater

 

[reckless]

so if 3 years ago i gave no shits about csgo, played 1 game (literally the only one, friend gifted me the game) with hacks for lulz and got banned, then 3 years later i decide to give this game a second chance and become a professional player, according to many of you here i should be banned for life for daring to cheat in a public game once when i had zero intentions of playing it seriously at all.

good to know

I mean sure why not, for the lulz.

Actions have consequences.

 

[Budi]

because that would make me VAC banned player and VAC bans are permanent. i am forever branded as a dirty cheater

Sure VAC bans are, but this tournament could loosen up their rules making it so that you have clean record after 10 years (for example) since the last ban. I'd be in favor, let the bygones be bygones. People can change.

 

[Reani]

I mean sure why not for the lulz.

Actions have consequences.

that consequence is VAC ban and account ban.
should not be lifetime stigma and eternal ban from competition. that is ridiculous

 

[ScaryShark]

Sure VAC bans are, but this tournament could loosen up their rules making it so that you have clean record after 10 years (for example) since the last ban. I'd be in favor, let the bygones be bygones. People can change.

10 years in esports is a lifetime ban.

 

[prag16]

Actions have consequences.

But we have this concept of the punishment fitting the crime. In the general sense most would agree with that sentiment I'd imagine.

In this case, the punishment clearly does not fit the crime.

And many (most?) here don't seem to care.

 

[Budi]

10 years in esports is a lifetime ban.

Nah, he will be 25 then and will have 5 more years to compete!

 

[reckless]

that consequence is VAC ban and account ban.
not lifetime stigma and eternal ban from competition

The consequence is apparently also an eternal ban from competition. Maybe if things like this happened more often people would think twice before cheating for the lulz.

But we have this concept of the punishment fitting the crime. In the general sense most would agree with that sentiment I'd imagine.

In this case, the punishment clearly does not fit the crime.

And many (most?) here don't seem to care.

Well thats all up to opinion isn't it.

 

[Seth]

neogaf is such a shit hole lol

 

[LordRaptor]

And many (most?) here don't seem to care.

I mean... no, not really, its not like CS:GO is the only eSport or even the only eSport FPS, and its not like he was caught cheating in some entirely other game.

"People who have been caught cheating in CS:GO are not allowed to enter this CS:GO tournament" doesn't come across as some outrageously egregious standard

 

[prag16]

Well thats all up to opinion isn't it.

Well as the gaf OT side would vehemently argue, some opinions have more validity than others.

 

[Reani]

I mean... no, not really, its not like CS:GO is the only eSport or even the only eSport FPS, and its not like he was caught cheating in some entirely other game.

"People who have been caught cheating in CS:GO are not allowed to enter this CS:GO tournament" doesn't come across as some outrageously egregious standard

"thief goes to jail" also sounds very reasonable but there is a huge difference between:
-someone stealing purse from old woman in an alley
-someone accidently taking a bubble gum from the store he forgot to pay for

both cases are technically theft, tell me both cases deserve the same punishment.

context matters

 

[reckless]

Well as the gaf OT side would vehemently argue, some opinions have more validity than others.

Ok then I guess the opinion that banning a known cheater from playing in competitive match is somehow not a reasonable punishment doesn't have much validity.

 

[LordRaptor]

"thief goes to jail" also sounds very reasonable but there is a huge difference between:
-someone stealing purse from old woman in an alley
-someone accidently taking a bubble gum from the store he forgot to pay for

both cases are technically theft, tell me both cases deserve the same punishment.

context matters

Which of those two does "Caught cheating on an undisclosed alt-account" fall under?

 

[MaxiLive]

That sounds rough, hopefully he can appeal the decision.

But it is understandable why he is banned as valve need to make an example and show this is what happens never mind how much of your lively hood relies on playing CS.

Maybe it is something that can be contest to limit it to a 1-2 year ban etc.

 

[AuthenticM]

That consequence doesn't seem proportional to what he did and the context in which he did it.