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[swerve]

What will the game that will show the capabilities of Nintendo's "Project Café" at E3 2011? A new Mario, Zelda, Metroid? Can't wait to see!

500 pikmin running riot all over a sumptuously lit garden full of beautifully animated giant insects.

 

[A Human Becoming]

My local news station just said it has pictures of what it will look like. Was this leaked and I just wasn't aware?

 

[apana]

Why would third parties care about "competing" with Nintendo when all they would be doing is porting games. I don't expect anyone to create an exclusive game for a Nintendo console unless Nintendo puts forth some kind of special deal or incentive.

 

[AceBandage]

My local news station just said it has pictures of what it will look like. Was this leaked and I just wasn't aware?

Your local news station probably got hold of that really old fake newsletter.

 

[Nirolak]

Why would third parties care about "competing" with Nintendo when all they would be doing is porting games. I don't expect anyone to create an exclusive game for a Nintendo console unless Nintendo puts forth some kind of special deal or incentive.

Nintendo's goal here would presumably be to not end up like the GameCube, where the system was fully capable of receiving ports, but didn't because publishers didn't believe there was an audience for their titles on the platform.

If Nintendo is publishing successful games in the genres that third parties make their games in, third parties will believe that a market exists on the Cafe for their titles, and thus keep porting them.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I'm picturing a trailer with Mario on the screen in standard def with black bars on each side. He's running and jumping in 2-D, then he jumps off a trampoline, over a flagpole and into the area of the black bar.

He looks confused for a moment, then Kamek comes on the screen, sprinkles some magic dust, and KAPOW! The screen goes wide, everything swirls into HD and it shows a jaw-dropping battle between Mario and Bowser in stunning HD with PS4 visuals.

Also, Link shows up at the end and says, "Whoa..."

 

[Amir0x]

Nintendo's goal here would presumably be to not end up like the GameCube, where the system was fully capable of receiving ports, but didn't because publishers didn't believe there was an audience for their titles on the platform.

If Nintendo is publishing successful games in the genres that third parties make their games in, third parties will believe that a market exists on the Cafe for their titles, and thus keep porting them.

I think a major problem was that Gamecube had 1.8GB disc space, making porting of certain games difficult without multiple discs and most companies didn't want to do that.

Because otherwise it still got a ton of ports.

 

[Father_Brain]

Iwata seemingly implied in the last investor Q & A that there's a Western-developed first-party project(s) in the works aimed at the current HD core audience. I'm as curious about that as I am about seeing what Nintendo's major IPs look like on Cafe.

 

[TUROK]

I'm picturing a trailer with Mario on the screen in standard def with black bars on each side. He's running and jumping in 2-D, then he jumps off a trampoline, over a flagpole and into the area of the black bar.

He looks confused for a moment, then Kamek comes on the screen, sprinkles some magic dust, and KAPOW! The screen goes wide, everything swirls into HD and it shows a jaw-dropping battle between Mario and Bowser in stunning HD with PS4 visuals.

Also, Link shows up at the end and says, "Whoa..."

And then... "Only on Xbox 360."

 

[A Human Becoming]

Your local news station probably got hold of that really old fake newsletter.

They said everything we already know. I didn't really expect anything new, but hey, a man can hope.

Iwata seemingly implied in the last investor Q & A that there's a Western-developed first-party project(s) in the works aimed at the current HD core audience. I'm as curious about that as I am about seeing what Nintendo's major IPs look like on Cafe.

So NST or Retro.

 

[AceBandage]

And then... "Only on Xbox 360."

Followed by: Live in your world, play in ours.

 

[apana]

Nintendo's goal here would presumably be to not end up like the GameCube, where the system was fully capable of receiving ports, but didn't because publishers didn't believe there was an audience for their titles on the platform.

If Nintendo is publishing successful games in the genres that third parties make their games in, third parties will believe that a market exists on the Cafe for their titles, and thus keep porting them.

We're not in that same age anymore. Third parties port to everything that they can, and no one is going to have PS2 level domination again. Yes if software sales are so abyssmal that it doesn't even justify creating a port that is another question altogether but I can't imagine that happening. Even if Wii 2 isn't as succesful as the original it will probably sell well north of the 20 million install base of the gamecube.

 

[Nirolak]

I think a major problem was that Gamecube had 1.8GB disc space, making porting of certain games difficult without multiple discs and most companies didn't want to do that.

Because otherwise it still got a ton of ports.

What it was missing though were really important titles like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Devil May Cry, Morrowind, and Doom 3.

They don't want to be "The system that gets a lot of ports, but not of the really big games."

We're not in that same age anymore. Third parties port to everything that they can, and no one is going to have PS2 level domination again. Yes if software sales are so abyssmal that it doesn't even justify creating a port that is another question altogether but I can't imagine that happening. Even if Wii 2 isn't as succesful as the original it will probably sell well north of the 20 million install base of the gamecube.

It's just that the reason that quote is concerning is it implies they're even contemplating not supporting the platform.

I don't think we would see statements about that like the PS4 or Xbox 3.

 

[AceBandage]

What it was missing though were really important titles like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Devil May Cry, Morrowind, and Doom 3.

They don't want to be "The system that gets a lot of ports, but not of the really big games."

Eh?
Gamecube got both of those.

 

[Hero of Legend]

Hopefully Sakurai has nothing to do with it after the clusterfuck that was Brawl.

I agree, just get HAL on it solo, and I'll die a happy man.

 

[Father_Brain]

Eh?
Gamecube got both of those.

It didn't get MGS 2/3 or FFX/FFXII. Don't be obtuse.

 

[Nirolak]

Eh?
Gamecube got both of those.

Crystal Chronicles and a remake of Twin Snakes are no where near as relevant as Final Fantasy X/XII and Metal Gear Solid 3.

 

[Amir0x]

What it was missing though were really important titles like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Devil May Cry, Morrowind, and Doom 3.

They don't want to be "The system that gets a lot of ports, but not of the really big games."

Was that necessarily because it wasn't the right system for these ports or because obtaining exclusives was still possible back then?

Genuine question. It got METAL GEAR TWIN SNAKES, of course, but I am fairly certain Sony secured certain exclusive rights or exclusive time releases for the MGS series.

I just think Sony was so big and Sony was so influential they could stop major series from going elsewhere if they wanted. Again, I am pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 3 went over the 1.8GB limit as well as MGS2.

 

[defferoo]

Eh?
Gamecube got both of those.

ehh... not really. Crystal Chronicles was not a mainline FF and the Twin Snakes was a remake..

EDIT: beaten... so many times. lol

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Eh?
Gamecube got both of those.

He means real FF games.

 

[AceBandage]

But... neither did the XBox...
So, why was this a problem for the GC?
The PS2 got a LOT of exclusive stuff, than in this day and age, would never be exclusive.

 

[plainr_]

What will the game that will show the capabilities of Nintendo's "Project Café" at E3 2011? A new Mario, Zelda, Metroid? Can't wait to see!

Mario. I want to see the fine lint on his plumber swag.

 

[FoneBone]

I think a major problem was that Gamecube had 1.8GB disc space, making porting of certain games difficult without multiple discs and most companies didn't want to do that.

Eh... not that it helped Nintendo (obviously), but I can't recall a single developer invoking that as a factor in not bringing their PS2/Xbox project to GC (though there probably were a few I can't remember).

There were plenty of multiplat games that were released on all platforms simultaneously, and with a few exceptions (from the numbers I recall, mostly younger-skewing licensed stuff), the GC versions would consistently sell the worst by far - and yes, that's accounting for the GC's lower userbase.

 

[Amir0x]

Mario. I want to see the fine lint on his plumber swag.

i like that our choices are just 'which franchise will Nintendo whore this round!'

I am going with option D

A BRAND NEW GAME NOBODY HAS HEARD OF BEFORE

Eh... not that it helped Nintendo (obviously), but I can't recall a single developer invoking that as a factor in not bringing their PS2/Xbox project to GC (though there probably were a few I can't remember).

There were plenty of multiplat games that were released on all platforms simultaneously, and with a few exceptions (from the numbers I recall, mostly younger-skewing licensed stuff), the GC versions would consistently sell the worst by far - and yes, that's accounting for the GC's lower userbase.

I remember multiple cases of it being sited. But of course it didn't help. it costs more money to produce 2 discs games than 1 and more effort to split the game in awkward places and GCN was generally seen as a platform that didn't deserve that sort of effort.

 

[Nirolak]

Was that necessarily because it wasn't the right system for these ports or because obtaining exclusives was still possible back then?

Genuine question. It got METAL GEAR TWIN SNAKES, of course, but I am fairly certain Sony secured certain exclusive rights or exclusive time releases for the MGS series.

I just think Sony was so big and Sony was so influential they could stop major series from going elsewhere if they wanted. Again, I am pretty sure Metal Gear Solid 3 went over the 1.8GB limit as well as MGS2.

Well, Metal Gear Solid 2 was ported to the Xbox and PC, but not the GameCube, which I think says something about what Konami thought of the platform.

We have seen major companies put out multi-disk games on the 360 this generation as well, so it seems that wasn't too huge of an issue for them.

 

[mclem]

The notable thing here is that he doesn't think Nintendo is dedicated to the audience Irrational's games appeal to, meaning that they haven't communicated the message that they're serious about Western core games to third parties.

That should concern Nintendo. His position is definitely reasonable, so Nintendo should be working hard to address that.

I have completely lost track of whether third parties want to compete with Nintendo or not.

 

[DrM]

500 pikmin running riot all over a sumptuously lit garden full of beautifully animated giant insects.

Bring it on. I think that new Pikmin title will be launch title for Project Cafe - they probably switched from Wii to Project Cafe quite long time ago and because of that this game is still hidden.

 

[Amir0x]

Well, Metal Gear Solid 2 was ported to the Xbox and PC, but not the GameCube, which I think says something about what Konami thought of the platform.

We have seen major companies put out multi-disk games on the 360 this generation as well, so it seems that wasn't too huge of an issue for them.

I really think this just boils down to the disc space issue. It is simply not a game Konami was to split across multiple discs.

Of course we'll never really know either way but it seems to me the more obvious factor consider it DID get Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes...

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

But... neither did the XBox...
So, why was this a problem for the GC?
The PS2 got a LOT of exclusive stuff, than in this day and age, would never be exclusive.

Xbox had Xbox live and Halo, that's all it needed.

 

[Diffense]

Nintendo makes WiiSports: Well obviously Nintendo doesn't want our games!
Nintendo makes Killshitbrowngreyshootenfuckyouup: Well, we can't compete with Nintendo!

lol...pithy and accurate.
I edited some stuff into my post but that says it all.

I think Nintendo's dominance as a publisher on its own platform is something that affects its relationship to third parties.
They see the sales of Nintendo's core franchises are absolutely afraid of making games that would compete with Mario et al.
However they see Nintendo as setting the tone for the platform and are afraid of complementing their games either for fear that the market will not be there.
My suggestion to Nintendo is that they launch with a bunch of BAD first person shooters.

 

[AceBandage]

i like that our choices are just 'which franchise will Nintendo whore this round!'

I am going with option D

A BRAND NEW GAME NOBODY HAS HEARD OF BEFORE

To be fair, established franchises are what sells and what gets the most buzz. From any company.
That doesn't mean they WON'T show a new franchise, but it won't be their main focus.

 

[Nirolak]

I have completely lost track of whether third parties want to compete with Nintendo or not.

They want Nintendo to build an audience in the genres they make games in, but not have so much success that no one buys their titles.

Like, Halo builds a large FPS audience, but it doesn't kill CoD, Battlefield, or any of the other FPS games out there.

It's a rather difficult thing to do, and the way you achieve this is by just getting so many people who like games in that genre on your platform that they can support a lot of titles.

Publishers are also afraid to compete in genres that they have almost no experience in like platformers, since they think they won't be able to make something competitive on a quality basis.

 

[JGS]

What will the game that will show the capabilities of Nintendo's "Project Café" at E3 2011? A new Mario, Zelda, Metroid? Can't wait to see!

I'm going with a new IP like WiiSports was new.

Maybe this time it'll be a Mature FPS or it could be a largely 3rd party affair to show thatbthey are committed to it.

 

[Amir0x]

To be fair, established franchises are what sells and what gets the most buzz. From any company.
That doesn't mean they WON'T show a new franchise, but it won't be their main focus.

The primary game Sony used to push PS3 on day one was RESISTANCE.

It can happen and should happen. We need companies to stop thinking that's all anyone wants >_<

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

BRAND NEW GAME NOBODY HAS HEARD OF BEFORE

 

[Amir0x]

lies that is Super Mario Bros. 3... I've totally heard of that.

 

[Nirolak]

The primary game Sony used to push PS3 on day one was RESISTANCE.

They also notably followed up by pushing Uncharted as the face of their platform, and still seem to be doing that today.

 

[Amir0x]

They also notably followed up by pushing Uncharted as the face of their platform, and still seem to be doing that today.

And they peppered in stuff that others did know of, like Ratchet.

I still WANT Mario, Zelda and Metroid, but I don't want that to always be the face of their real hardcore efforts. I want them to push budgets and marketing @ the Zelda/Mario level but with brand new characters, worlds and concepts without the restrictions of a franchise.

I will die when they reveal Pikmin 3 and F-Zero: STREAM same as anyone else of course

 

[JohnTinker]

I'm all for a brand new Pikmin being one of the flagship first party launch games, but there has to be at least one or two more.

The dream game is a real Mario World sequel, but I personally think a not too farfetched launch game would be a new console Pilotwings. Show off the physics, the weather effects, the skyboxes, the foliage & trees, the water effects. I think it would be a great showcase.

 

[apana]

lol...pithy and accurate.
I edited some stuff into my post but that says it all.

I think Nintendo's dominance as a publisher on its own platform is something that affects its relationship to third parties.
They see the sales of Nintendo's core franchises are absolutely afraid of making games that would compete with Mario et al.
However they see Nintendo as setting the tone for the platform and are afraid of complementing their games either for fear that the market will not be there.
My suggestion to Nintendo is that they launch with a bunch of BAD first person shooters.

Again this makes no difference. As long as the games sell enough to justify the costs of porting it, they will port it. Doing otherwise would just be pure bias on the part of game developers and I don't think they work like that. Gamecube was a system that sold 20 million as opposed to the PS2 which was the best selling console ever. That was also at a time when costs of building the games weren't so high. They need the widest userbase possible and Wii 2 will have at least a significant chunk of the total gaming userbase even if it sells a lot less than the original Wii.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Nintendo's goal here would presumably be to not end up like the GameCube, where the system was fully capable of receiving ports, but didn't because publishers didn't believe there was an audience for their titles on the platform.

If Nintendo is publishing successful games in the genres that third parties make their games in, third parties will believe that a market exists on the Cafe for their titles, and thus keep porting them.

Gamecube was at the stupid 'kiddy' generation where Nintendo was painted as a toy for children while Sony was cool and mature... that was marketing and that was generations ago and there was also the Cube's little disk space to think about.

Nintendo should not have to change its focus for 3rd Parties, Nintendo needs to focus on just being Nintendo if they ever lose that they lose everything they cannot copy Sony with a hardcore we are so cool image. They went from 'teh kiddy' generation to WiiSports for 'everyone' generation. They do have an image in the mind's of everyone who sees the name Nintendo that image can only be changed very slowly but it will never be what people think about Xbox or Playstation.

Kinect is trying to be Wii HD when Nintendo failed to provide it and so fair it proves that Nintendo missed out on a segment. Sony copies the Wiimote and the core Sony base pretty much ignored the move. You cannot change your image and expect to attract a new audience overnight.

Cafe needs to be much more than what the Wii is and it needs to bring Nintendo one more step ahead of what they were able to do with the Wii. They won the generation when people really wanted to laugh but as sales started stacking up people stopped laughing and started to rush to copy the success.

Why fall back on Core FPS bald marines market? Why tell your 3rd Parties this is all you want from them? Give them the hardware power they need and let them do what they want regardless. Give them a controller that has enough buttons for once.

Beyond that Cafe needs to have that extra "surprise" that Nintendo thing.

Don't force a change people may not follow your new image

 

[Amir0x]

Gamecube was at the stupid 'kiddy' generation where Nintendo was painted as a toy for children while Sony was cool and mature... that was marketing and that was generations ago and there was also the Cube's little disk space to think about.

Nintendo should not have to change its focus for 3rd Parties, Nintendo needs to focus on just being Nintendo if they ever lose that they lose everything they cannot copy Sony with a hardcore we are so cool image. They went from 'teh kiddy' generation to WiiSports for 'everyone' generation. They do have an image in the mind's of everyone who sees the name Nintendo that image can only be changed very slowly but it will never be what people think about Xbox or Playstation.

I agree that Nintendo should stick to being Nintendo. But I disagree with your assertion that helping third parties out and forming partnerships and making the environment friendly to their titles amounts to Nintendo 'changing its focus.' They compete in an environment where they must compete. If they don't, others will simply take the window of opportunity to make their platforms even better.

I think Nintendo realizes that.

Why fall back on Core FPS bald marines market? Why tell your 3rd Parties this is all you want from them? Give them the hardware power they need and let them do what they want regardless. Give them a controller that has enough buttons for once.

Beyond that Cafe needs to have that extra "surprise" that Nintendo thing.

Don't force a change people may not follow your new image

Third parties should do what they're good at same as Nintendo should do what they're good at. Nintendo merely needs to facilitate an environment that seems friendly to what third parties are good at while fostering their own talents. Same as you wouldn't ask Nintendo to change who they are, we definitely should not ask third parties to change.

 

[Diffense]

Again this makes no difference. As long as the games sell enough to justify the costs of porting it, they will port it. Doing otherwise would just be pure bias on the part of game developers and I don't think they work like that. Gamecube was a system that sold 20 million as opposed to the PS2 which was the best selling console ever. That was also at a time when costs of building the games weren't so high. They need the widest userbase possible and Wii 2 will have at least a significant chunk of people even if it sells a lot less than the original Wii.

If enough third party's have ideas similar to Irrational, as outlined by Tm Gerritson, it makes a difference.
I do believe that the big publishers, such as EA, will port their popular franchises more often than not as long as it is cost-effective to do so.
But smaller publishers with more niche games and smaller marketing budgets will still view Nintendo platforms as intimidating, IMO.

 

[ReyVGM]

Of course we'll never really know either way but it seems to me the more obvious factor consider it DID get Metal Gear Solid Twin Snakes...

But that's because Silicon Knights did all the dirty work.

 

[Amir0x]

Right, but it's also likely because the core game is smaller and thus easier to fit on 1.8GB. Metal Gear is not the type of game that should be disc split.

In other words, Konami is not adverse to the idea of Metal Gear on Nintendo platforms. They jumped at the opportunity to remake for 3DS, and they jumped at the opportunity to remake for GCN. i just think GCN was primarily missing such big games as GTA and Metal Gear ports due to disc space more than 'kiddie lol'

 

[Nirolak]

Right, but it's also likely because the core game is smaller and thus easier to fit on 1.8GB. Metal Gear is not the type of game that should be disc split.

In other words, Konami is not adverse to the idea of Metal Gear on Nintendo platforms. They jumped at the opportunity to remake for 3DS, and they jumped at the opportunity to remake for GCN. i just think GCN was primarily missing such big games as GTA and Metal Gear ports due to disc space more than 'kiddie lol'

Do you think they would have disc split the game if they thought they could sell 2+ million additional copies on the system?

 

[Amir0x]

Do you think they would have disc split the game if they thought they could sell 2+ million additional copies on the system?

Sure, but i don't think it's BECAUSE the GCN was viewed as kiddie as much as it was simply because the system was doing poorly and the added effort was viewed as counterproductive. If it wasn't going to be disc split and such, maybe they would have viewed it as worth the effort.

Or maybe the sales of Twin Snakes told them it was not worth it, who knows!

 

[bgassassin]

The notable thing here is that he doesn't think Nintendo is dedicated to the audience Irrational's games appeal to, meaning that they haven't communicated the message that they're serious about Western core games to third parties.

That should concern Nintendo. His position is definitely reasonable, so Nintendo should be working hard to address that.

Looking at his comment he seemed to associate the lower-spec Wii hardware with the casual software by Nintendo. I think that goes back to the comment I made about Nintendo going to an extreme of not being like Sony and MS when it could have still made a console somewhat comparable to the others. Like you said they have a right to be skeptical about what Nintendo is saying. At the same time though I hope they realize that Nintendo themselves will always be centered family-oriented games. This is where Nintendo will have to go slightly out of the way to show those devs that they want those devs to fill in the gap that Nintendo won't.

And hopefully that means no more limited hardware or hardware-capable purses.

 

[Nirolak]

Gamecube was at the stupid 'kiddy' generation where Nintendo was painted as a toy for children while Sony was cool and mature... that was marketing and that was generations ago and there was also the Cube's little disk space to think about.

Nintendo should not have to change its focus for 3rd Parties, Nintendo needs to focus on just being Nintendo if they ever lose that they lose everything they cannot copy Sony with a hardcore we are so cool image. They went from 'teh kiddy' generation to WiiSports for 'everyone' generation. They do have an image in the mind's of everyone who sees the name Nintendo that image can only be changed very slowly but it will never be what people think about Xbox or Playstation.

Kinect is trying to be Wii HD when Nintendo failed to provide it and so fair it proves that Nintendo missed out on a segment. Sony copies the Wiimote and the core Sony base pretty much ignored the move. You cannot change your image and expect to attract a new audience overnight.

Cafe needs to be much more than what the Wii is and it needs to bring Nintendo one more step ahead of what they were able to do with the Wii. They won the generation when people really wanted to laugh but as sales started stacking up people stopped laughing and started to rush to copy the success.

Why fall back on Core FPS bald marines market? Why tell your 3rd Parties this is all you want from them? Give them the hardware power they need and let them do what they want regardless. Give them a controller that has enough buttons for once.

Beyond that Cafe needs to have that extra "surprise" that Nintendo thing.

Don't force a change people may not follow your new image

What Microsoft showed with Kinect was that they could appeal to the same casual audience that liked the Wii by offering them a new concept designed around things that appeal to them.

Nintendo would be well served by releasing a few core games with innovative new concepts to appeal to Western core gamers if they want that market. Obviously a Call of Duty clone won't work, but neither will just releasing a new 3D Mario game with even higher production values.

Also, this quote seems to indicate they plan to do just that:

Iwata: Next, regarding the subject of overseas, there was an era in the past, which was until the time of PlayStation 2, when games made in Japan sold well all over the world. However, I think that, over the past three or four years, the presence of Japanese software developers has become relatively small. Nintendo is doing what overseas software developers do not do, so Nintendo's software is selling relatively well also in foreign countries, but for the software oriented to enthusiastic game players, such as "Call of Duty," the ones created by overseas developers are more mainstream in the overseas markets. In addition, because the expressions in games are becoming more and more photo-realistic, I imagine that the cultural differences in acceptance have started to be reflected more clearly. I think this is the reason why western users tend to prefer software created overseas than software from Japanese software developers.

Of course, Nintendo will continue to run a business by creating Nintendo-like games, but we will not be able to meet the various tastes of consumers by only doing this, so I feel that it will become necessary to reinforce the development resources in the foreign countries. Therefore, I hope we will be able to show you something like that at E3.

Source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=429086

I think the success of this effort will determine much of their success with the Cafe, especially in terms of expanding beyond the Wii audience.

 

[Nirolak]

Sure, but i don't think it's BECAUSE the GCN was viewed as kiddie as much as it was simply because the system was doing poorly and the added effort was viewed as counterproductive. If it wasn't going to be disc split and such, maybe they would have viewed it as worth the effort.

Or maybe the sales of Twin Snakes told them it was not worth it, who knows!

Right, I'm not saying they avoided the platform solely because they thought it was kiddy, but because they felt Nintendo didn't build a big enough audience specifically for games like Metal Gear to make the port worthwhile.

Spoiler

I double posted by accident so I just split this here.