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[onQ123]

I expect them to release a 6TF console, exactly as the said in the video. And that's the same TF that we use in every other measurement, not some modified version the suits a conspiracy theory narrative.

This isn't something that I'm making up Polaris has native half-precision floating point computation support so the peak flop number is no longer the single -precision number it's the half-precision number so someone could use the peak number number of half-precision as a marketing number & it wouldn't be a lie.

Still, there are a few features in the RX 480 that you won't find in older graphics cards. There's DisplayPort 1.3 HBR, HDMI 2.0b (at last!), and support for HDR content. Without any consumer HDR PC monitors around, you'll have to pick up a TV in order to actually view HDR content, although AMD says it's working with monitor manufacturers to get models on the market as soon as possible. Native FP16 (half-precision computation) support has been introduced for the first time, too, and while that will mean little to gamers, those into heavy compute tasks such as computer vision or machine learning stand to benefit from the reduced memory use of FP16 instructions.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/06/amd-rx-480-polaris-review/

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Wait, it's taking MS an extra year to release a system that's actually 1.2TF weaker than the Neo and they are just lying about it to save face?

 

[Noobcraft]

This isn't something that I'm making up Polaris has native half-precision floating point computation support so the peak flop number is no longer the single -precision number it's the half-precision number so someone could use the peak number number of half-precision as a marketing number & it wouldn't be a lie.

If you think Microsoft is going to release a weaker console than the PS4 Neo a year later you're insane. They'll probably use an RX485 or whatever AMD has released by then.

 

[Chobel]

I think you should stick with uprendering, onQ123.

 

[NXGamer]

The move to 14/16nm happened this year so next year isn't going to make much of a difference besides being able to clock your processors higher & so on but like I said if Xbox Scorpio has to keep the embedded ram for Xbox One compatibility & they are probably using even more embedded ram for 4K that wouldn't leave much room for a GPU with over 36 compute units in a console SoC.

It will not, no need, point or benefit that ship has sailed and the entire BC process and direction for MS no longer mandates or even requires any bespoke hardware or even software solutions.

Abstraction and translucency is the future, has been for years.

 

[Caayn]

Uprenders and half precision FLOPS for all.

 

[krang]

I'd say that this heavily suggests Neo won't release in October. Think how annoying it would be to buy one, then have to wait a couple of months before there's a decent number of games that take advantage of it.

The "October onwards" timeframe ensures the big hitters for the holiday are ready for Neo, not the other way around.

 

[TH-Work]

Enthusiast don't care about price, sure.
If all gamers want is most powerful hardware regardless of price, tell me why 970 is the best selling card? Not the most powerful Titan X or 980Ti.

PC in my opinion is another Story It's in peoples mind that you never can't have the most powerful PC. But you can have the most powerful console Look at how many people already want to upgrade their PS4 to PS4 Neo or how much they spend for Oculus Rift or PSVR, if they want the new hardware which they are interrested in then they buy it and the costs doesen't matter

 

[Averon]

http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-rx-470-460-official-performance/

Is it even remotely possible the PS4 GPU is based on the RX 470, not an RX 480? Looking at those specs (5TF, 110 TDP, 224 GB/s) sounds pretty similar to what we know about the PS4's GPU.

 

[Caayn]

http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-rx-470-460-official-performance/

Is it even remotely possible the PS4 GPU is based on the RX 470, not an RX 480? Looking at those specs (5TF, 110 TDP, 224 GB/s) sounds pretty similar to what we know about the PS4's GPU.

RX470 and RX480 are using the same GPU. Neo's GPU uses the same core count as the RX 480 but at lower clocks according to the docs hence the lower theoretical performance.

 

[Lady Gaia]

And I am not an engineer, but couldn't the bump in CPU/GPU be turned a little bit higher? Is heat that much of a problem?

Heat is your enemy in a lot of respects because it directly correlates to power consumption, cost of cooling systems to prevent it from building up, noise generated by doing so, and when not well managed it leads to high failure rates.

The exact correlation is complex but in practice power consumption, and therefore heat generation, scales roughly as the cube of frequency. That means that all other factors being equal, and presuming you can get the part to work at all, when you double the clock speed you're consuming about eight times as much power and generating approximately eight times as much heat.

Clocking the leaked Neo GPU high enough to hit 4.5TF would yield a 23% increase in power consumption/heat production. That's not trivial and it completely ignores questions of yield and stability of those parts at that speed.

 

[Prologue]

starting to think they won't even announce this thing at a stage event.

here's my prediction:

- PS4 Neo announced via press release/blog post with a fancy video in September and a list of first party games that will have Neo modes at launch
- Available in October
- $399, OG PS4 $299

I'm starting to feel its next year at this point.

 

[J-Skee]

Anyway to download the PDF on mobile without signing up for the website or downloading the Scribd app?

 

[DESTROYA]

PC in my opinion is another Story It's in peoples mind that you never can't have the most powerful PC. But you can have the most powerful console Look at how many people already want to upgrade their PS4 to PS4 Neo or how much they spend for Oculus Rift or PSVR, if they want the new hardware which they are interrested in then they buy it and the costs doesen't matter

Sure you can, personally I came to that conclusion.
I've primarily have been a PC gamer in the past and consoles always came in second but I focused way too much on which settings were best, how can I get better performance,blah,blah,blah and at some point you get diminishing returns unless you want to spend a lot more money on new hardware on a regular basis ..the point to my story is I used to spend way too much time tweaking settings and not enough time actually enjoying the games so "power" isn't always everything.
I have just as much fun playing games on my PS4 than I do with my PC.

 

[mrklaw]

Well obviously you can downport almost anything if you strip everything else. But that's not what I'm talking about either.

Let me give you a clearer example. We have Rise of the Tomb Raider, that either mechanically or tech wise can stand up against a game made fully from the ground up for ps4, like uncharted, and still was downported gracefully for 360 whilst being intact gameplay wise.

And that's a 512mb and a 0.2tf device in 2015. Do you truly believe that 4 years from now xbone and ps4 will be so weak to the point they limit what a developer might want to do in a game like you guys are talking about?

I think Sony and MS would remove the mandatory support for PS4 and XB1 when PS5 etc come out, but publishers will be free to do what they want. I'd expect many will not ignore the large PS4 market and so instead of just being Neo+PS5, they'd include PS4 support too - albeit at a lower resolution or framerate.

 

[iTehDroiD]

Anyway to download the PDF on mobile without signing up for the website or downloading the Scribd app?

Just enable desktop mode in the browser I guess

 

[tinfoilhatman]

So stoked to actually own a PS4 when this releases, glad I decided I turn my back on this gen as soon as the launch hardware specs were released.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Anyway to download the PDF on mobile without signing up for the website or downloading the Scribd app?

Here, I uploaded it for you:

https://goo.gl/9gzfkg

https://mega.nz/#!MlIAgB4S!F_KwJ9aNGxU_x9qcIxLfeF10PS2DsByR5PaIZn2bIvs

 

[LukasTaves]

You mean something like Xbox Anywhere? No way every publisher is gonna support it. Plus Sony can easily do it if somehow publishers demand it.

I also want you to explain this to me: how not doing forward compatibility (=Xbox Anywhere?) means you're starting from scratch? Offering BC alone solves that.

No, not Xbox anywhere. Even if publishers doesn't support play anywhere (I do think they do, but that's a discussion for another topic ) on Xbox from now on games are decoupled from hardware. This means that if a game supports both xbone and Xbox 2 it's the same game, the same online community. It just happens to run and/or look better on the newer console.

And BC doesn't solve that problem. If a game releases for both consoles they are most likely to not be interchangeable. So it's two games, with two different populations.

Ms universal platform was made with that in mind, not only the games, but the platform itself is the same, it will be the same network whether you are on xbone or xbox 2, playing the same games (bar those who are too demanding to run on xbone 1 which will come a few years later), with the same accessory support.

What I'm talking about is essentially what you already have on iOS or Pc, where you can upgrade your hardware and your games automatically run better, not because they are being emulated, but because the game itself was made to run and adapt to devices with different performances.

 

[spectator]

So stoked to actually own a PS4 when this releases, glad I decided I turn my back on this gen as soon as the launch hardware specs were released.

I'm glad you're glad, but it's been a really fun three years of gaming.

 

[LukasTaves]

Xbox Anywhere is the Cross-Buy feature of the PlayStation systems.

And like them there is a different game SKU for each platform, in this case Xbox and Win10 store.

Currently they might be implemented like that (I really have no idea), but the goal of the platform is to be a single package that runs on both. (It doesn't mean 100% of the code will be the same on all platforms, but the package support multiple binaries and the store knows which ones to download to each device). A single package, with a single submission process, that is available to one or more platforms at once.

 

[fudgey_lumpkins]

Magic 8 ball says No

But jeff_rigby

Spoiler

and only jeff_rigby

says yes.

 

[quest]

No, not Xbox anywhere. Even if publishers doesn't support play anywhere (I do think they do, but that's a discussion for another topic ) on Xbox from now on games are decoupled from hardware. This means that if a game supports both xbone and Xbox 2 it's the same game, the same online community. It just happens to run and/or look better on the newer console.

And BC doesn't solve that problem. If a game releases for both consoles they are most likely to not be interchangeable. So it's two games, with two different populations.

Ms universal platform was made with that in mind, not only the games, but the platform itself is the same, it will be the same network whether you are on xbone or xbox 2, playing the same games (bar those who are too demanding to run on xbone 1 which will come a few years later), with the same accessory support.

What I'm talking about is essentially what you already have on iOS or Pc, where you can upgrade your hardware and your games automatically run better, not because they are being emulated, but because the game itself was made to run and adapt to devices with different performances.

I really like MS plan for this and hope Sony changes their minds to do something similar.

 

[J-Skee]

Here, I uploaded it for you:

https://goo.gl/9gzfkg

https://mega.nz/#!MlIAgB4S!F_KwJ9aNGxU_x9qcIxLfeF10PS2DsByR5PaIZn2bIvs

You are a gentleman & a scholar. Thank you very much.

 

[Chris_Rivera]

I'm starting to feel its next year at this point.

I think they will release it, maybe soft release in October. They wouldn't put the deadline in place unless it had some significance.

 

[LukasTaves]

I think Sony and MS would remove the mandatory support for PS4 and XB1 when PS5 etc come out, but publishers will be free to do what they want. I'd expect many will not ignore the large PS4 market and so instead of just being Neo+PS5, they'd include PS4 support too - albeit at a lower resolution or framerate.

I too think they won't even be needed to mandate support, not supporting xbone and ps4 would be suicide, but that upgradeable console paradigm is new, and they need to give their user base some assurance.

By the time Xbox 2 is launched, the concept around iterative console won't be a new thing to be feared, so at that point they won't even need to tell the users support will be mandated.

And developers will just do their best to support as many consoles as they can, because that means more profit.

 

[krang]

I think they will release it, maybe soft release in October. They wouldn't put the deadline in place unless it had some significance.

As per my post above, the October date seems more like an assurance that the holiday titles support Neo, whenever it releases. Otherwise you've got a console out with very few games that take advantage of the power.

 

[AndyD]

As per my post above, the October date seems more like an assurance that the holiday titles support Neo, whenever it releases. Otherwise you've got a console out with very few games that take advantage of the power.

Indeed. This way virtually every big fall title will support the console on launch day.

 

[LukasTaves]

I really like MS plan for this and hope Sony changes their minds to do something similar.

One of the reasons for neo might be just that. They currently don't have the platform in place to allow that (heck, not even Ms has their platform read yet and they spent many years building and talking about it), but it counters Scorpio and buys them time to move towards a device agnostic platform.

And since neo is basically a faster Ps4 all the same optimizations apply and supporting neo becomes an issue of having higher settings enabled, with almost not code changes other than check which device you are running and some hard coded settings like resolution.

 

[farisr]

I really like MS plan for this and hope Sony changes their minds to do something similar.

I absolutely hate it and hope Sony keeps doing things their own way.

We've been seeing less and less improvements every generation in terms of graphical & performance capabilities, MS' plans just makes this a whole lot worse as far as I'm concerned, I like a proper next-gen jump. MS' plan gets rid of it and will slow down things even further. The improvements we'd be seeing in 6 years if everything was left as is, we may not see till 9 years with an iterative/forward compatible model.

 

[Leyasu]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

 

[Kibbles]

Checkerboard rendering? What are all these faux 2160p stuff?

 

[Danlord]

I'm saying that Xbox Scorpio could be just like what the Neo is to the PS4 a APU with 2X the CUs with a higher clock speed & because Polaris is capable of half-precision computation Microsoft was able to say that it is 6tflops because


24 compute units clocked at 1Ghz would be 3tflops single-precision & 6tflops half-precision.


Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

...


...

I'm just curious, what's wrong with what onq123 said, is it completely false? Can we not count half-point floating point precision the way it's suggested?

 

[Mula]

I'm just curious, what's wrong with what onq123 said, is it completely false? Can we not count half-point floating point precision the way it's suggested?

It isn't false. But It's hilarious to think Ms releases a 3TF console end 2017.

 

[Noobcraft]

It isn't false. But It's hilarious to think Ms releases a 3TF console end 2017.

Especially with their emphasis on native 4k.

 

[dead monkey uk]

Checkerboard rendering? What are all these faux 2160p stuff?

Digital Foundry's job just got a lot more complicated.

 

[Danlord]

Especially with their emphasis on native 4k.

Could Microsoft's emphasis on "native 4K" also be like Aaron Greeberg's comment "You realize you will see every game in 1080p as your output right?" where it'll something like 1440p but upscaled and then output at 4K?

 

[RoboPlato]

Checkerboard rendering? What are all these faux 2160p stuff?

Reconstruction techniques. Rainbow Six Siege uses checkerboard rendering to great effect to hit 1080/60 on PS4. Very curious/excited to see what kind of results it can get for 4K output and if there will be enough GPU grunt left over afterwards for some added visual effects on top of that.

 

[quest]

I absolutely hate it and hope Sony keeps doing things their own way.

We've been seeing less and less improvements every generation in terms of graphical & performance capabilities, MS' plans just makes this a whole lot worse as far as I'm concerned, I like a proper next-gen jump. MS' plan gets rid of it and will slow down things even further. The improvements we'd be seeing in 6 years if everything was left as is, we may not see till 9 years with an iterative/forward compatible model.

The Scorpio would hardly hold anything back. The PS5 is going to be the first 4k console that will use a lot of its juice. The Scorpio version will just run 1080/30 with a few less effects. It beats the current crappy cross gen with 2 separate communities for several years. It also will be a lot less of risk for developers having a built in user base.

 

[icespide]

I have to commend onQ123 no matter how many people shit on his ideas, he remains cool and collective, backing up all of his claims with plausible technical details. admirable

 

[flkraven]

I have to commend onQ123 no matter how many people shit on his ideas, he remains cool and collective, backing up all of his claims with plausible technical details. admirable

Shocker.

He isn't being a jackass or anything but he hasn't really explained his reasoning as to why it's plausible that MS would represent their numbers this way. Sure it's technically a possible, but there is zero reason to believe it's true in this situation.

 

[blastprocessor]

Polaris support native half-precision floating point calculations & because of that Sony could say that PS4 Neo is 8.4tflops because it would be true if they are using Polaris. .

So could the Neo do games at 4K using this half-precision?

 

[icespide]

Shocker.

He isn't being a jackass or anything but he hasn't really explained his reasoning as to why it's plausible that MS would represent their numbers this way. Sure it's technically a possible, but there is zero reason to believe it's true in this situation.

why shocker?

 

[LukasTaves]

I absolutely hate it and hope Sony keeps doing things their own way.

We've been seeing less and less improvements every generation in terms of graphical & performance capabilities, MS' plans just makes this a whole lot worse as far as I'm concerned, I like a proper next-gen jump. MS' plan gets rid of it and will slow down things even further. The improvements we'd be seeing in 6 years if everything was left as is, we may not see till 9 years with an iterative/forward compatible model.

That's simply not true at all. If anything iterative releases bring new tech faster.

Look no further than the pc market, pc versions of last gen games already had the visual fidelity you would find early on this generation, only a few years prior.

Mobile phones are also another example on how games advanced when they moved to iterative releases compared to dedicated handhelds.

It's releasing a big jump every 6 or more years that brings advancements down, not to mention the impact it had on the industry when pc developers started supporting consoles and console only devs were left in the dust.

 

[Negotiator]

I have to commend onQ123 no matter how many people shit on his ideas, he remains cool and collective, backing up all of his claims with plausible technical details. admirable

Just like Jeff, right?

 

[icespide]

Just like Jeff, right?

hey, I admire jeff for that too. He's gets shit on constantly for his crazy threads but I've never really seen him break

 

[leeh]

I have to commend onQ123 no matter how many people shit on his ideas, he remains cool and collective, backing up all of his claims with plausible technical details. admirable

Do you think his ideas will become the reality?

 

[icespide]

Do you think his ideas will become the reality?

no, I'm just saying he's taken a lot of crap in this thread but it doesn't phase him

 

[gundamkyoukai]

That's simply not true at all. If anything iterative releases bring new tech faster.

Look no further than the pc market, pc versions of last gen games already had the visual fidelity you would find early on this generation, only a few years prior.

Mobile phones are also another example on how games advanced when they moved to iterative releases compared to dedicated handhelds.

It's releasing a big jump every 6 or more years that brings advancements down, not to mention the impact it had on the industry when pc developers started supporting consoles and console only devs were left in the dust.

Both have there plus and minus going for them .
The problem is the long jump is not as big as it use to be .
Which happen because of many factors .
It's not like PC devs target the highest end to begin with anyway .

 

[Shaunboy97]

Could Microsoft's emphasis on "native 4K" also be like Aaron Greeberg's comment "You realize you will see every game in 1080p as your output right?" where it'll something like 1440p but upscaled and then output at 4K?

Greenberg was very careful in NOT saying 'native'... There's a difference!!