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[StrongBlackVine]

I find the concept of the pro to be annoying and idiotic. Still think Sony should have just ridden things out with the standard PS4 lowering the price as they went along and put all this shit into ps5 when that time comes rather than creating this stupid divide in their own consumer base instead now people are looking at pro features to justify their money which is idiotic for me. Totally unnecessary.

Don't like then don't buy it. I'm happy to get a choice.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I find the concept of the pro to be annoying and idiotic. Still think Sony should have just ridden things out with the standard PS4 lowering the price as they went along and put all this shit into ps5 when that time comes rather than creating this stupid divide in their own consumer base instead now people are looking at pro features to justify their money which is idiotic for me. Totally unnecessary.

I agree. They could have easily ridden out another 3 years and just put out a Xbox One S like PS4 upgrade at the halfway point in place of the current Slim and just called it a day.

What's stupid is that they are most likely going to release the PS5 in the same general timeframe they otherwise would have anyway, so what's the point?

You've done confused everybody who can't understand basic hardware utilization(which to be fair is quite a few people who are not well versed in the nuance) and caused a lot of anger and frustration for nothing.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

I don't think that may be the case. If MS includes Jaguar in Scorpio(something that is still very possible), you basically relegate the machine to a Pro with a better GPU and more more ram.

Generally speaking, your still fighting with Pro over marginally higher resolutions and slightly better textures.

Not if it re-uses weak Jaguar cores

I will permanently change my avatar to anything of anyones choosing if they go with Jaguar for the CPU.

 

[joebruin]

Yes, although Scorpio will have an easier up-sell as the additional power will be much more noticeable.

i dunno about that. especially if its more expensive. not to mention we already have an idea of what a 6tflop console will look like based on current PCs. and in those shoot outs lots of people still think the current consoles look good enough.

Scorpio might end up being a hard sell to you too if you currently think the ps4p is a hard sell.

 

[Always-honest]

I think people know Pro will be for 4K users, or at least this is my impression.

Maybe Sony don't want to market it that much for 1080p improvements (if there are any? I've still not understand that point) because don't want to disappoint who already bought a standard PS4.

The higher resolution games are being downscaled on a 1080p screen. That means a cleaner image quality. But there is a lot more power for extra Anti aliassing, better effects, better quality shadows, better textures, more things on screen (like particles or vegetation), etc., as well as improved framerate.

(should you be interested in knowing a bit more on the subject: there are articles and threads about it)

 

[Mokubba]

You think Sony is only marketing the PS4 Pro towards NeoGAF users?

It's going to be very difficult for a kid to convince their parents to buy the PS4 Pro, if they already have a PS4.

Off course not but my point is, for the core gaming crowd, i.e. the users here on GAF, it shouldn't be difficult to understand and I'm not tech savvy compared to some of the people on here.

I don't think the Pro will have a hard time selling. It's a PS4 with better hardware. It isn't hard to convey that across to new buyers.

To be fair there were so many conflicting reports about Pro that it's easy to get lost. I consider myself tech savvy and only last week after reading the new Eurogamer article and some Cerny interviews I began to get clearer picture about Pro.

I think there will be a lot of disappointed people who buy Pro and find out that only a handful of select games will receive Pro updates. Sony really needs to repeat again and again, maybe even add disclaimers on packaging etc. that all your PS4 games will not look or run better UNLESS they receive a Pro patch.

What conflicting reports?

As far as I know, the leaks in the leaked documents earlier this year were more or less confirmed in Sony's press conference and then digital foundry articles just made things even easier to understand unless there's something I've forgotten.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I will permanently change my avatar to anything of anyones choosing if they go with Jaguar for the CPU.

<< u sure u wanna do that

 

[Plum]

I don't think the console's design factors into value.

I would argue that if you have a 1080p TV, your actually going to see way more benefit and improvement to your games than if you own a 4K television, as every game regardless of res will be downsampled to your screen in addition to the FPS or visual improvements, and on top of that, there are 1080p specific modes, and modes in between 1080p and 4K as well.

The console's design is definitely a factor when deciding whether to buy it. If it weren't the ugly design of the original Xbox One (and then the subsequent amazing design of the S) wouldn't have been a big deal. The Pro does not look like an aesthetically pleasing console at all.

As for 1080p, how can you get additional FPS improvements to 4K mode if it downsamples from said 4K mode? That's not how it works, on PC if I downsample from resolutions higher than 1080p my framerate will go down. Better IQ is not a good reason for me to buy a console, the games that sorely need it and FPS improvements (Bloodborne) aren't getting a patch and the games that are getting a patch (UC4, Infamous) already had amazing IQ in the first place.

1080p specific modes will be way too rare to justify a purchase, if it's not mandatory that's extra optional work for devs and that just won't happen. Note how those modes are tied to either games Sony is obviously footing the bill for (Paragon, Andromeda) or older/smaller games that aren't in active development (Tomb Raider, Witness). In the vast majority of cases it's just going to be a higher IQ for 1080p gamers, the fact that the hardware can do better does not mean developers will want to bug-test and work on a specific version.

 

[GinoFelino]

I agree. They could have easily ridden out another 3 years and just put out a Xbox One S like PS4 upgrade at the halfway point in place of the current Slim and just called it a day.

What's stupid is that they are most likely going to release the PS5 in the same general timeframe they otherwise would have anyway, so what's the point?

I'm happy with the choice. The people sticking with the OG lose out on nothing, but those who don't want to wait another 3 years to enjoy a higher resolution on their 4K TV's get this new device.

How is that stupid to anyone?

 

[madmackem]

Pr has been bad because it's a new thing, it's the first time we've had a bump in specs like this mid gen. It's a marketing minefield, they have to show why you'd want one while not pissing off nearly 50m install base of the current machine, it's a tough one to juggle.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

<< u sure u wanna do that

Haha!

 

[GinoFelino]

i dunno about that. especially if its more expensive. not to mention we already have an idea of what a 6tflop console will look like based on current PCs. and in those shoot outs lots of people still think the current consoles look good enough.

Scorpio might end up being a hard sell to you too if you currently think the ps4p is a hard sell.

Yeah, much more noticeable is complete nonsense.

Even the pixelfuckers at Digital Foundry (I say that with love) are hard-pressed to spot the difference between PS4K and native 4K. You think it will be 'much more noticeable' for the average consumer?

Pr has been bad because it's a new thing, it's the first time we've had a bump in specs like this mid gen. It's a marketing minefield, they have to show why you'd want one while not pissing off nearly 50m install base of the current machine, it's a tough one to juggle.

Yup, totally this too.

 

[madmackem]

The console's design is definitely a factor when deciding whether to buy it. If it weren't the ugly design of the original Xbox One (and then the subsequent amazing design of the S) wouldn't have been a big deal. The Pro does not look like an aesthetically pleasing console at all.

As for 1080p, how can you get additional FPS improvements to 4K mode if it downsamples from said 4K mode? That's not how it works, on PC if I downsample from resolutions higher than 1080p my framerate will go down. Better IQ is not a good reason for me to buy a console, the games that sorely need it and FPS improvements (Bloodborne) aren't getting a patch and the games that are getting a patch (UC4, Infamous) already had amazing IQ in the first place. 1080p specific modes will be way too rare to justify a purchase, if it's not mandatory that's extra optional work for devs and that just won't happen.

Got the lotto number too?. The ps4 isn't some design masterpiece yet sold pretty well aesthetics mean little to the market pro is after the hardcore PlayStation user.

 

[JawzPause]

Yeah. That is why I decided to wait and purchase Scorpio...Too much of the unknown. Can't be spending $400.

This makes no sense. We know nothing on scorpio. Unless you mean you're going to wait for scorpio details to come out and then consider your purchase

 

[Inuhanyou]

As for 1080p, how can you get additional FPS improvements to 4K mode if it downsamples from said 4K mode? That's not how it works, on PC if I downsample from resolutions higher than 1080p my framerate will go down.

This isn't like PC which requires a tool.

The Pro will still internally res at the same high resolution by default. If you have a PS4 game running on a 720p TV for example, it will automatically resize to the screen and provide down sampling benefits regardless of if the console itself is outputting in 1080p or if the game is internally rendering at 1080p.

According to Guerilla, they are providing a higher resolution mode which will have FPS improvements compared to the original game, so if you run that on a 1080p screen, you get the FPS improvement and the downsampling benefits.

I'm happy with the choice. The people sticking with the OG lose out on nothing, but those who don't want to wait another 3 years to enjoy a higher resolution on their 4K TV's get this new device.

How is that stupid to anyone?

Its stupid because the announcement of the Pro has caused all this unrest and misinformation and confusion by many people when they could have just kept it simple.

Now all that may disappear when the thing actually comes out and DF and others actually get to see things running, but right now, it feels like strangely confusing for many people.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Statements like "Games will look better no matter which TV you own" & "twice as powerful" don't clearly communicate the difference in quality I will see. You know what would? Some comparisons.

If you don't understand how 2x more powerful will translate into better looking games, then PS4 Pro probably isn't for you.

Does nvidia show comparison shots of games running on different cards to demonstrate the benefits of increased power? No, because the people these cards are marketed towards already know what stuff like 2x more powerful means.

 

[Plum]

Got the lotto number too?. The ps4 isn't some design masterpiece yet sold pretty well aesthetics mean little to the market pro is after the hardcore PlayStation user.

I gave an example right there in my post. The Xbox One was laughed at for being a massive VCR-looking thing and that almost definitely had an impact on it losing sales to Sony. If the PS4 had originally been competing with an Xbox One with the S's design things would almost definitely be different.

 

[leeh]

I don't think that may be the case. If MS includes Jaguar in Scorpio(something that is still very possible), you basically relegate the machine to a Pro with a better GPU and more more ram.

Generally speaking, your still fighting with Pro over marginally higher resolutions and slightly better textures.

I'd argue that it's the least likely option. They took the hit of delaying a year for a good reason. They had a spec sheet of what a console releasing this year would look like (presumably very similar to pro) and what the upgrade would look like next year.

Without a different CPU. I don't think they would of set it back a year. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[TalentBurke]

Nobody finds the first post amazing? Only me?

What is going with you Neogaf?

lol I was laughing so hard when I read this.

 

[Lagamorph]

Sony PR and marketing has been terrible in general lately. Even now that it's out the PSVR receives no marketing whatsoever in the UK and you've got one of our biggest and best know game retailers trying to charge you for demo of it.

 

[Plum]

This isn't like PC which requires a tool.

The Pro will still internally res at the same high resolution by default. If you have a PS4 game running on a 720p TV for example, it will automatically resize to the screen and provide down sampling benefits regardless of if the console itself is outputting in 1080p or if the game is internally rendering at 1080p.

According to Guerilla, they are providing a higher resolution mode which will have FPS improvements compared to the original game, so if you run that on a 1080p screen, you get the FPS improvement and the downsampling benefits.

That's not how this works, downsampling only happens when the internal rendering resolution of the game is higher than the output resolution of the TV/Monitor you're playing it on. There is no difference between the way downsampling works on PC and the way it works on the Pro. The PC requiring a tool makes no difference to the end result which is exactly the same . So unless the developer specifically makes the game have performance improvements (which, considering developers, will just be "stable 30fps instead of 25-30fps") then the game will run exactly like it will in 4K mode if it's downsampled.

There's my main issue. All this talk of improvements for 1080p users and the like but in most cases those improvements will just be nicer IQ due to downsampling, and that's only in future games with mandatory PS Pro patches. I honestly doubt many developers that aren't Sony-owned or Sony-backed (and, considering From, not even then) will bother to implement such benefits.

 

[KORNdoggy]

it's clearly a console mainly catering to 4k TV owners. and the problem with selling a system for 4k and HDR is that NEITHER of them are able to be demo'd via a 1080p TV. or a PC monitor, or youtube. or anything really. it's why when they announced it they had to have actual TV's around to show the benefit of the jump.

same goes for VR. how do you promote and market a device you really need to experience first hand to "get"?

but what are the options? 4k, HDR and VR demo units worldwide in every store? it's kind of unrealistic.

 

[GinoFelino]

Its stupid because the announcement of the Pro has caused all this unrest and misinformation and confusion by many people when they could have just kept it simple.

Now all that may disappear when the thing actually comes out and DF and others actually get to see things running, but right now, it feels like strangely confusing for many people.

I really think so. Again, this is one of those things that people will slowly come to understand and appreciate. It's a first for console gaming (not counting the 32X type addons) and I think some minor confusion is unavoidable, especially among those who don't take the effort to educate themselves.

I understand them downplaying the Pro for now, so the current user base doesn't feel cheated. Its capabilities will become clear soon enough.

Nobody finds the first post amazing? Only me?

What is going with you Neogaf?

I called him out on page 2! -wants pat on the head -

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'd argue that it's the least likely option. They took the hit of delaying a year for a good reason. They had a spec sheet of what a console releasing this year would look like (presumably very similar to pro) and what the upgrade would look like next year.

Without a different CPU. I don't think they would of set it back a year. It just doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense because that was their timeline to begin with. They didn't set it back a year when they heard Pro was launching, just like Pro wasn't set up a year earlier than Scorpio was launching. These companies don't operate in a reactionary manner like that, they have to plan this stuff years in advance.

Basically, MS wanted "true 4K" gaming and highest quality pixels, and Sony were willing to split the difference between 4K and lower resolutions, and 1080p.

In general, Lisa Su has already confirmed that there are no semi custom Zen designs ready before 2018, and in mid 2017, the only thing they will have ready are desktop 4 to 8 core variants,which will consume far more power than what would be feasible in a modern console.

 

[a.wd]

Everyone in the no hype thread seems to be buying it, so I would argue that they dont need to do anything more than what they are currently to engage their potential user base.

 

[The God]

I'm happy with the choice. The people sticking with the OG lose out on nothing, but those who don't want to wait another 3 years to enjoy a higher resolution on their 4K TV's get this new device.

How is that stupid to anyone?

muddying up the console market to compete with pc is stupid.

 

[viHuGi]

Who needs PR? it's called Playstation and since they announced it the damn thing has been dominating charts across the globe, just went to biggest retailer here and they said Pro is outselling regular consoles pretty easily with the exception of Fifa weeks when they had Slim and One S bundles.

Thing is gonna sell 30 million minimum.

 

[Ascenion]

I mean given what the Pro brings to the table seeing is believing. The best they can do imo is send out Pro demo units to stand alongside normal PS4 demo units so people can actually live the difference. Bonus points if they can convince Best Buy to hook them up to non garbage 4K sets (LG OLED, Samsung Quantum Dot).

 

[Inuhanyou]

it's clearly a console mainly catering to 4k TV owners. .

I would argue that this is a fallacy that has been wrongly pushed by Sony and given way more uplift than it should.

While higher internal resolutions pushed by the Pro will display more cleanly on 4K televisions than 1080p resolution obviously, I would argue the benefits you will see for Pro are actually more dramatic for 1080p owners than 4K users.

 

[GinoFelino]

muddying up the console market to compete with pc is stupid.

I think it's great!

Do you see how stupid it is to just shout stuff without further elaboration?

It's stupid? Why? What's 'muddying up the console market'? Does Scorpio count towards that muddying too? Did you enjoy the last generation getting really long in the tooth the last couple of years?

I would argue that this is a fallacy that has been wrongly pushed by Sony and given way more uplift than it should.

While higher internal resolutions pushed by the Pro will display more cleanly on 4K televisions than 1080p resolution obviously, I would argue the benefits you will see for Pro are actually more dramatic for 1080p owners than 4K users.

That's very unlikely. Please elaborate. Did you ever see a game running in/near 4K? The difference is huge!

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think it's great!

Do you see how stupid it is to just shout stuff without further elaboration?

It's stupid? Why? What's 'muddying up the console market'? Does Scorpio count towards that muddying too? Did you enjoy the last generation getting really long in the tooth the last couple of years?

To be fair, this gen will be no where near as long as PS3 or 360, so it doesn't matter. 6 years isn't that long at all. 360 and PS3 would have ended 2 to 3 years before they actually did, but last gen was abnormal.

That's very unlikely. Please elaborate. Did you ever see a game running in/near 4K? The difference is huge!

The higher the resolution gets, the more clean the 1080p TV visuals get. As opposed to 4K TV's which has to deal with below native resolutions and a semi imperfect checkerboard rendering technique to scale better to 4K displays, 1080p TVs on Pro will benefit way more with every game either rendering far higher than 1080p by default, or offering an enhanced 1080p mode with better graphical fidelity, or even sometimes both.

 

[PodcastFips]

Why are we still bringing Scorpio into discussion? By the time it releases, the PS4 Pro will likely be available for around 300$ in a nice bundle.

There is nothing to compare.

 

[CyberPunked]

Agreed. I'll buy it nevertheless, but primarily because of better performance/graphics in VR.

Is this actually going to be the case?

 

[Ozorov]

Is this actually going to be the case?

Better performance in PSVR? Yes

Farpoint(PSVR-game) developer on Pro: "Across the board, it&#8217;s more crisp. That&#8217;s because we are rendering roughly twice as many pixels (as on PS4)"

 

[GinoFelino]

To be fair, this gen will be no where near as long as PS3 or 360, so it doesn't matter. 6 years isn't that long at all. 360 and PS3 would have ended 2 to 3 years before they actually did, but last gen was abnormal.



The higher the resolution gets, the more clean the 1080p visuals get. As opposed to the checkerboard rendering technique which has to deal with below native resolutions and a semi imperfect checkerboard rendering technique to scale better to 4K displays, 1080p TVs on Pro will benefit way more with every game either rendering far higher than 1080p by default, or offering an enhanced 1080p mode with better graphical fidelity, or even sometimes both.

It'll depend on the game, I guess, but at its very cleanest 1080p still looks nowhere near as clean and detailed as the checkerboard 4K most games will employ.

The graphical effects/framerate boost at 1080p might be valid reasons to switch to 1080p for some games though.

Stealth edit reply to your stealth edit:

I think 6 years is pretty damn long to go without upgrades!

 

[CyberPunked]

Better performance in PSVR? Yes

Is this confirmed? It's just I'm aware that games that don't "support" the pro down clock the GPU.

That's very unlikely. Please elaborate. Did you ever see a game running in/near 4K? The difference is huge!

I believe he's referring to the fact that large graphical sacrifices will have to be made to run games at 4K relative to if they were just 1080p.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It'll depend on the game, I guess, but at its very cleanest 1080p still looks nowhere near as clean and detailed as the checkerboard 4K most games will employ.

The graphical effects/framerate boost at 1080p might be valid reasons to switch to 1080p for some games though.

Stealth edit reply to your stealth edit:

I think 6 years is pretty damn long to go without upgrades!

That's always been the general generation switch though, 6 to 5 years. That is what Nintendo has stuck to stuck to as well. If Wii U wasn't a failure, they probably would have kept wii u going for much longer.

 

[farmerboy]

Well, they've got me to buy one. Funnily enough when the shop assistant asked why I decided to upgrade I couldn't really give him a straight answer.

I suppose I like Playstation and it's exclusives and I really want to play Horizon and GOW4 at their best.

Anyway, they haven't even tried yet, they're too busy concentrating on PSVR.

Also, you are all over complicating it. Average consumer will see 2 different prices and ascertain that one is better than the other. "Why's it dearer?" they'll ask. "Its twice as powerful and will play the same games but better". Simple really.

 

[GinoFelino]

Is this confirmed? It's just I'm aware that games that don't "support" the pro down clock the GPU.


I believe he's referring to the fact that large graphical sacrifices will have to be made to run games at 4K relative to if they were just 1080p.

I don't think you can label them graphical sacrifices when you get a large graphical boost in return (going to 4K or near-4K resolution).

That's always been the general generation switch though, 6 to 5 years. That is what Nintendo has stuck to stuck to as well. If Wii U wasn't a failure, they probably would have kept wii u going for much longer.

There have been way shorter generation switch cycles than 5-6 years, too. Besides, this generation has a big resolution switch happening in the middle of it. I think a mid-gen upgrade makes sense, then.

 

[Ozorov]

Is this confirmed? It's just I'm aware that games that don't "support" the pro down clock the GPU.


I believe he's referring to the fact that large graphical sacrifices will have to be made to run games at 4K relative to if they were just 1080p.

Well the games has to be patched.

Here's a list of the confirmed titles atm: https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/590ek5/a_list_of_psvr_games_with_pro_upgrade_confirmed/

 

[wapplew]

How did Apple market/PR their S phone?
Did they show side by side comparison or just tell us how much % more powerful?

 

[Inuhanyou]

I don't think you can label them graphical sacrifices when you get a large graphical boost in return (going to 4K or near-4K resolution).

You don't think the clarity at 1080p due to the downsampling will be an absolute sea change compared to the FXAA laden, sub 1080p PS4 versions of games? Bruh.

That's in comparison to only a certain amount of games actually hitting native 4K res on Pro, and the clarity of the image absolutely being somewhat muddled by the artifacting by having to scale to that higher res with checkerboard rendering a lower resolution. In addition to the 1080p enhanced modes having the same basic clarity of a normal 1080p game upscaled to a 4K TV.

1080p TV's intepretation of the Pro will look absolutely pristine by comparison is what i say.

I think we should probably have a thread on 1080p TV Pro vs 4K TV Pro when it comes out.

 

[The God]

I think it's great!

Do you see how stupid it is to just shout stuff without further elaboration?

It's stupid? Why? What's 'muddying up the console market'? Does Scorpio count towards that muddying too? Did you enjoy the last generation getting really long in the tooth the last couple of years?

It's stupid because it doesn't do a good job of keeping anyone seriously looking into PC from making the switch. Instead the consoles get more iterative like the PC but without any of the advantages of the PC platform. As for getting long in the tooth I don't see why a PS5/XB2 couldn't come out in 2018/19.

 

[UrbanRats]

The problem is that Sony wants it both ways.

With one hand they're telling you "You need this, go buy it, it's great!" but with the other they want to reinforce that "Your PS4 is fine, you don't need this, it's not a big deal".

 

[Inuhanyou]

The problem is that Sony wants it both ways.

With one hand they're telling you "You need this, go buy it, it's great!" but with the other they want to reinforce that "Your PS4 is fine, you don't need this, it's not a big deal".

that's the issue with iterative consoles in general. They are built to be optional, and so can't be sold in a way which dilutes the point of the base unit.

 

[Sony]

So you first buy the thing and then wonder what it would do for you?

 

[StrongBlackVine]

The problem is that Sony wants it both ways.

With one hand they're telling you "You need this, go buy it, it's great!" but with the other they want to reinforce that "Your PS4 is fine, you don't need this, it's not a big deal".

They can't alienate 40 million PS4 owners so they can't make it seem like they are getting a worse experience even though they will absolutely be getting a worse experience compared to Pro owners going forward.

 

[KOHIPEET]

Well the games has to be patched.

Here's a list of the confirmed titles atm: https://www.reddit.com/r/PSVR/comments/590ek5/a_list_of_psvr_games_with_pro_upgrade_confirmed/

Thanks for this link man.

 

[krang]

that's the issue with iterative consoles in general. They are built to be optional, and so can't be sold in a way which dilutes the point of the base unit.

If this becomes the norm, then this won't be a problem. Like phones, they can big up their new device and people will automatically be aware that they can buy the older console for less but not with all the new bells and whistles. It's just this transition period where it's weird for them to market.

 

[GinoFelino]

You don't think the clarity at 1080p due to the downsampling will be an absolute sea change compared to the FXAA laden, sub 1080p PS4 versions of games? Bruh.

That's in comparison to only a certain amount of games actually hitting native 4K res on Pro, and the clarity of the image absolutely being somewhat muddled by the artifacting by having to scale to that higher res with checkerboard rendering a lower resolution. In addition to the 1080p enhanced modes having the same basic clarity of a normal 1080p game upscaled to a 4K TV.

1080p TV's intepretation of the Pro will look absolutely pristine by comparison is what i say.

I think we should probably have a thread on 1080p TV Pro vs 4K TV Pro when it comes out.

Time will tell! I think I'll prefer 4K Pro over 1080p Pro in many cases, but we won't know for certain until it comes out. I really haven't seen too many games at 1080p downsampled from a much higher res, so I can't really say for sure.

All I know is 4K games (even the Youtube-compressed 4K Pro footage) look miles better than the same games at 1080p, so buying a Pro is an easy sell for me.

It's stupid because it doesn't do a good job of keeping anyone seriously looking into PC from making the switch. Instead the consoles get more iterative like the PC but without any of the advantages of the PC platform. As for getting long in the tooth I don't see why a PS5/XB2 couldn't come out in 2018/19.

Well, I was going to buy a gaming PC and now I'm not because of PS4 Pro. So I'd say it's actually doing quite a good job of that.