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[Dictator93]

But it really does, if a middleware solution has a error or fault then these things can be turned off by default. This game does not have the amount of texture work to qualify having these disabled, the bandwidth/overhead/API issue he mentions is not only plausible but entirely possible.

The fact it happens or not could be a simple question of time/effort or budget, lets see if the XboxOne version has it enabled.

You really think devs are just putting normal DX code with no thought at all on to the PS4? And it is at the point where, of all features, AF is something they purposefully turn off / automatically is turned off in the process save on performance?

A couple of assumptions of which I have no knowledge of and form the basis of that theory:
1. You can just drop DX11 code on the PS4 and it converts it at runtime?
2. That this is so inefficient (aka, why does the PS team even allow it if true) that devs choose to reduce the oddball AF feature (which somehow is so expensive all of a sudden?)?
3. Devs care so little about their games that they make the PS4 version run on foreign libraries.

 

[Birgitte2004]

I'm starting to think you haven't read at all this thread. I don't remember a single post who pointed out it's an hardware fault, far the contrary.

There are numerous posts talking about the power of the PS4, including several that say it might not be powerful enough to do it while running at a higher resolution(than Xbox One).

Nobody used the words "hardware fault", but you don't need a dozen+ posts talking about the PS4 power to not see some discussion about a possible hardware fault.

 

[Majanew]

No there aren't. Read the thread. I work with a PS4 everyday of the week so I think I know what is and isn't better than people only guessing stuff according to anecdotal evidence and various websites full of misinformation.

Well we're gonna have to get Bish to verify you if you're going to make those claims.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Same for DICE. AF in BF4 was very lacking on both platforms. Probably around 4x in both GTAV and BF4. Though in both cases AF was identical between XBO and PS4.

Thats why I probably thought they were fine. The most glaring differences I remember are Thief, Strider, recently DmC and a few others that shouldn't be the most taxing games out there. When Thief was compared I thought its the higher resolution of the PS4 causing it, as if Sony would prioritize that for reasons. But that doesn't make sense in case of Strider and DmC.

Also, didn't TR DE actually have better AF on PS4?

 

[c0de]

Also, didn't TR DE actually have better AF on PS4?

I only remember both ports were done by different devs/teams.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I only remember both ports were done by different devs/teams.

Yeah Nixxes did Ps4 version. They also did the Ps3 version which was superior to the Xbox 360 version. X1 version was done by United Front.

 

[c0de]

Yeah Nixxes did Ps4 version. They also did the Ps3 version which was superior to the Xbox 360 version. X1 version was done by United Front.

Were they responsible for the 360 version?
Ugh, just googled them. They were also involved in mcc according to wiki.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Were they responsible for the 360 version?
Ugh, just googled them. They were also involved in mcc according to wiki.

I assume the 360 version is the only one done in house by CD themselves. PC and PS3 were outsourced. Nixxes > CD apparently.

 

[mintylurb]

There are numerous posts talking about the power of the PS4, including several that say it might not be powerful enough to do it while running at a higher resolution(than Xbox One).

Nobody used the words "hardware fault", but you don't need a dozen+ posts talking about the PS4 power to not see some discussion about a possible hardware fault.

Besides Strider, is there any multi-platform game where x1 and ps4 versions have the same resolution but the ps4 version having worse AF?

 

[R_Deckard]

You really think devs are just putting normal DX code with no thought at all on to the PS4? And it is at the point where, of all features, AF is something they purposefully turn off / automatically is turned off in the process save on performance?

A couple of assumptions of which I have no knowledge of and form the basis of that theory:
1. You can just drop DX11 code on the PS4 and it converts it at runtime?
2. That this is so inefficient (aka, why does the PS team even allow it if true) that devs choose to reduce the oddball AF feature (which somehow is so expensive all of a sudden?)?
3. Devs care so little about their games that they make the PS4 version run on foreign libraries.

I think you are taking this abit to extreme, from watching the video he does not say any of the above?!?

He says that the X API works more like DX but this comes with more overhead (i.e. the Framestutters) and that the API/Engine may have an issue with this and this is why we see AF not working as it seems here. We have other games that do it.

What is with this "PS" team? Who are these people? Do you think Sony sends a group of Hardcore programmers into each game to check Filtering, AA etc and sign it off!! You have some odd assumption of any QA process. All they do is make sure the game runs, does not crash the system and work as intended anything else is between the Dev house/Publisher.

At this point we have enough games and situation to know that hardware rather than software is the issue here and in other cases (Not all mind as I and many have said AF is not free and we are seeing much higher level textures now than last gen) but this game, strider, unfinished swan are not pushing the envelope on textures or overhead use so a valid performance trade off on say The order or AW all make sense but not in these examples.

 

[SeanTSC]

Besides Strider, is there any multi-platform game where x1 and ps4 versions have the same resolution but the ps4 version having worse AF?

DmC: DE, can't remember the others off the top of my head.

 

[Backfoggen]

Besides Strider, is there any multi-platform game where x1 and ps4 versions have the same resolution but the ps4 version having worse AF?

Saints Row and Murdered

 

[impact]

Besides Strider, is there any multi-platform game where x1 and ps4 versions have the same resolution but the ps4 version having worse AF?

Revelations 2

pls stop trying to pretend this isn't an issue with the PS4 guys. All these devs wouldn't exclude AF for no fucking reason...

 

[Ehker]

Revelations 2

pls stop trying to pretend this isn't an issue with the PS4 guys. All these devs wouldn't exclude AF for no fucking reason...

It had worse AF in Revelations 2?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-resident-evil-revelations-2-face-off
"Both versions also make use of what appears to be full 16x anisotropic filtering with sharp, clean textures visible at any angle."

 

[SeanTSC]

Revelations 2

pls stop trying to pretend this isn't an issue with the PS4 guys. All these devs wouldn't exclude AF for no fucking reason...

Er, Revelations 2 doesn't have an AF issue. Both have 16x AF according to DF. The Revelations 2 problem is some major Framerate issues on Barry's side on the PS4 which shouldn't be happening for the level of graphics that Rev 2 has, which is most likely some bugs/optimization issues that just need patched.

 

[Dictator93]

He says that the X API works more like DX but this comes with more overhead (i.e. the Framestutters) and that the API/Engine may have an issue with this and this is why we see AF not working as it seems here. We have other games that do it.

He is implying that devs are taking their PC code and just dropping it in GNMX. If it has dx11 style overhead, which the xb1 also has, why would that affect AF? Everything we know about overhead is that it is primarily found on the CPU.

What is with this "PS" team? Who are these people? Do you think Sony sends a group of Hardcore programmers into each game to check Filtering, AA etc and sign it off!! You have some odd assumption of any QA process. All they do is make sure the game runs, does not crash the system and work as intended anything else is between the Dev house/Publisher.

I am referencing the fact, that if GNMX is so bad... why on earth does ICE team (the PS team) maintain it as an API / how bad is ICE that GNMX apparently disallows good performance with AF enabled.

Either way, the idea that it is a performance problem due to API choice assumes two things: that devs are incompetent, or that the team developing GNMX is incompetent.

I would rather assume it is some oversight that we here can have little knowledge of. An assumption which has a less "conspiracy" theory like taste.

 

[cgcg]

It was 4x on most surfaces, with some having higher.
So pretty much current gen 'standard'.

http://i3.minus.com/ibirx9q8FmRbiV.png
http://i1.minus.com/i15fU3Tpg0lbC.png
http://i4.minus.com/iiqhc49UOfMF9.png
http://i3.minus.com/iQauzde7zeC0i.png

Wow the shots look so blurry, especially the third one. Are these direct feeds?

 

[omonimo]

DmC: DE, can't remember the others off the top of my head.

The most worrying thing, AF it's even worse of the PS3 version. Seriously, this shit need to stop as soon as possible.

 

[Dictator93]

Wow the shots look so blurry, especially the third one. Are these direct feeds?

The game is 900p internally, so yes, the game is blurry when upscaled.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

What is with this "PS" team? Who are these people? Do you think Sony sends a group of Hardcore programmers into each game to check Filtering, AA etc and sign it off!! You have some odd assumption of any QA process.

This was actually my job early on in my career at a couple publishers over a decade ago. Check PC titles in development on various supported hardware configurations and see if different video and audio settings were working correctly both through in-game options and through driver settings. Resolutions, anti-aliasing, texture filtering, etc.

Sony doesn't do that level of checking during the TRC process, therefore it would be more on the developer/publisher. But because most of that kind of thing won't be flagged during certification, there's no real pressure on the devs to go through that level of scrutiny beyond standard QA looking for graphical defects during standard testing.

 

[omonimo]

There are numerous posts talking about the power of the PS4, including several that say it might not be powerful enough to do it while running at a higher resolution(than Xbox One).

Nobody used the words "hardware fault", but you don't need a dozen+ posts talking about the PS4 power to not see some discussion about a possible hardware fault.

Numerous users continue to think xbone it's more powerful of the ps4 in this forum. You can't believe me, but I have encountered different posters quite convinced of this. The point it's how much fair are some opinions.

 

[mintylurb]

Saints Row and Murdered

Ah Thanks. Indeed, x1 versions of those two games sport better AF. Though apparently, the ps4 versions have better framerate.

So, guys. I've cracked the code. PS4 has to make compromises; Higher resolution and/or higher fps at the cost of lower AF. You're welcome DF!

 

[cgcg]

To be honest those games are not exactly the best example of good AF on ps4, especially The Order.

Oddworld is 2D just like Strider and yet it has really good AF, probably 16x and the game looks about 20x more detailed than Strider so really what gives?

 

[R_Deckard]

He is implying that devs are taking their PC code and just dropping it in GNMX. If it has dx11 style overhead, which the xb1 also has, why would that affect AF? Everything we know about overhead is that it is primarily found on the CPU.

I am referencing the fact, that if GNMX is so bad... why on earth does ICE team (the PS team) maintain it as an API / how bad is ICE that GNMX apparently disallows good performance with AF enabled.

Either way, the idea that it is a performance problem due to API choice assumes two things: that devs are incompetent, or that the team developing GNMX is incompetent.

I would rather assume it is some oversight that we here can have little knowledge of. An assumption which has a less "conspiracy" theory like taste.

The only one turning this into a conspiracy is you? Mistakes happen, software has issues I can see you have no experience in this but it happens. The issue could be a middleware i.e. the Engine + API that causes this to fail or fault, a workaround or suffix update could fix this. But issue/time size of team ultimately "reasons" cause this to happen. Having so many separate devs leave this feature off by mistake is far more of a conspiracy that we have just such a large bunch of selective incompetence that so many are leaving this off on PS4 and on for X1.. but everything else is fine.

Also the CPU overhead is what is mentioned with the stutters on fps.

This was actually my job early on in my career at a couple publishers over a decade ago. Check PC titles in development on various supported hardware configurations and see if different video and audio settings were working correctly both through in-game options and through driver settings. Resolutions, anti-aliasing, texture filtering, etc.

Sony doesn't do that level of checking during the TRC process, therefore it would be more on the developer/publisher. But because most of that kind of thing won't be flagged during certification, there's no real pressure on the devs to go through that level of scrutiny beyond standard QA looking for graphical defects during standard testing.

Exactly, Software QA, Regression or even UAT testing is a big, big issue. Add in hardware variations and multiple middleware solutions things can happen. I have shipped products before that I know have umpteen issues that come back from Bug fixes on clients that we knew would happen but have to manage the fixes on a priority. Poor or no AF is not going to be high on the Must fix list or as you say in a QA pass stage.

 

[Three]

But there are an increasing number of games that inexplicably have better AF on Xbox One than they do on PS4.

I can give you a reason for Theif at least. Reasons for individual games may be different. It ran at a higher res with better performance on the PS4 but the main reason is probably because unlike the XB1 version of theif which was missing it entirely it had Parallax Occlusion Mapping too. AF gets expensive with it enabled. Contrary to popular opinion, it's not free at all:

Review of Displacement Mapping Techniques and Optimization

btu.se/fou/cuppsats.nsf/all/9c1560496a915078c1257a58005115a0/%24file/BTH2012Hrkalovic.pdf

 

[c0de]

Numerous users continue to think xbone it's more powerful of the ps4 in this forum. You can't believe me, but I have encountered different posters quite convinced of this. The point it's how much fair are some opinions.

Yeah but let's not pretend there are a lot and sometimes I think these people aren't even serious if they post. I think we should just ignore both extreme users on either fence.

 

[Slaythe]

Can't we just ask Ninja Theory ? They usually answer a lot of stuff.

Maybe they can share light as to why the PS4 version looks worse than all the other counterparts.

1080p is meaningless if anything looks like mud. That's not even a joke, it literally negates the resolution bump.

 

[impact]

It had worse AF in Revelations 2?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-resident-evil-revelations-2-face-off
"Both versions also make use of what appears to be full 16x anisotropic filtering with sharp, clean textures visible at any angle."

I wonder if the AF is what's causing the PS4 version to run at half the fps? Hmmm!

I can't believe people are denying that there is an AF issue with this console. Do you not like your textures? We need to pressure Sony into fixing this asap.

 

[Liquidsnake]

I wonder if the AF is what's causing the PS4 version to run at half the fps? Hmmm!

I can't believe people are denying that there is an AF issue with this console. Do you not like your textures? We need to pressure Sony into fixing this asap.

Its been pretty apparent to me, as I own both consoles.

 

[Shin-Ra]

1080p is meaningless if anything looks like mud. That's not even a joke, it literally negates the resolution bump.

I don't know how to respond to such nonsense.

I wonder if the AF is what's causing the PS4 version to run at half the fps? Hmmm!

That's why Tomb Raider and Sniper Elite perform better with higher levels of AF on PS4.

 

[Elandyll]

I wonder if the AF is what's causing the PS4 version to run at half the fps? Hmmm!

I can't believe people are denying that there is an AF issue with this console. Do you not like your textures? We need to pressure Sony into fixing this asap.

If games (most) have AF on PS4, then the first question should be asked to the devs whose PS4 version seem to lack AF, don't you think?

:shrug: Just think it makes sense really.

 

[-griffy-]

1080p is meaningless if anything looks like mud. That's not even a joke, it literally negates the resolution bump.

Nah, mud looks better at 1080p than it does at 720p. AF negates hi-res textures more than it does resolution. Doesn't really matter how hi-res your textures are if they turn to N64 level a few feet from the camera on any angled surface.

 

[c0de]

If games (most) have AF on PS4, then the first question should be asked to the devs whose PS4 version seem to lack AF, don't you think?

:shrug: Just think it makes sense really.

But do most games have af? How do we know if there is no face off from a website? I don't say they don't but it's hard to prove, I guess.

 

[Kayant]

I wonder if the AF is what's causing the PS4 version to run at half the fps? Hmmm!

I can't believe people are denying that there is an AF issue with this console. Do you not like your textures? We need to pressure Sony into fixing this asap.

And how do you know it's a Sony issue?

There have been games that have good levels of AF.
There have been games that have greater levels than the XB1 counterpart.
There have been games that have same levels of AF.
There is been games that had poor levels of texture filtering on both current-gen systems.

That suggests a per dev issue not something wrong with the console.

 

[-griffy-]

But do most games have af? How do we know if there is no face off from a website? I don't say they don't but it's hard to prove, I guess.

Most console games have (low) levels of AF. Most console games have identical (low) levels of AF on both Xbox One and Playstation 4. Most platform exclusive games have (low) AF. A lower number of multiplats and exclusives have truly excellent AF. A small, yet growing, number of games have better AF on XBO over PS4. A smaller number have better AF on PS4 than on XBO.

 

[mintylurb]

I don't know how to respond to such nonsense.


That's why Tomb Raider and Sniper Elite perform better with higher levels of AF on PS4.

TR and SE were made before the x1's potential was unlocked though.

I know nAo used to occasionally answered questions about NT games when he was still them.
It'll be interesting to know NT's rationale for cutting back the AF for the ps4 version.

 

[Gbraga]

If games (most) have AF on PS4, then the first question should be asked to the devs whose PS4 version seem to lack AF, don't you think?

:shrug: Just think it makes sense really.

But it's not just AF on vs AF off, there's also poor AF or mediocre AF, which is the norm. There's decent AF and then there's 16xAF, which really is an exception (as far as I know), and it shouldn't be if the PS4/Xbone has no problems dealing with 16xAF.

You even have cases of games with better AF on photo mode, so, even if the PS4 obviously can deal with AF, it's also just as obvious that it isn't as cheap as it is on PC.

That may seem obvious to some, but when we have people denying it has anything to do with PS4, even an answer like "the PS4 is not a PC, so of course it's not the same performance cost" already prove them wrong.

The heads off are actually detrimental to finding the issue, as people will often say "well, see, this one has AF in both versions, PS4 can do it, nothing to see here", and then you have a very poor implementation of AF in both platforms, as if this somehows solves the problem.

Even PC has terrible AF on some games by default, but I don't have to deal with it because I just force it on a driver level, since it's so cheap, I just have 16xAF set as a forced Global Setting on Nvidia control panel. If for some stupid reason it really is the dev's fault and the PS4 could easily run 16xAF without losing any considerable performance, then we still should be asking Sony to force it globally instead of bugging every single developer begging for them to care as much as we do about it.

 

[c0de]

Most console games have (low) levels of AF. Most console games have identical (low) levels of AF on both Xbox One and Playstation 4. Most platform exclusive games have (low) AF. A lower number of multiplats and exclusives have truly excellent AF. A small, yet growing, number of games have better AF on XBO over PS4. A smaller number have better AF on PS4 than on XBO.

I don't say you are wrong but it all comes down to me to games where we have actually face offs. Unless of course someone takes the effort to analyze each game.
But this is a bit off topic. Let's concentrate on the games with issues.

 

[RoboPlato]

Since many of the games this seems to be an issue with are UE3, here's hoping it's addressed before Arkham Knight comes out. DmC DE is the first game I've played where it's really noticeable.

 

[Noobcraft]

Picking a shot with a load of motion blur isn't a great example and I'm not sure if you're trying to disprove FH2 has insufficient AF.

Apologies. Here are some still shots.

It has some form of AF, not an excellent one but it's totally workable for a game with typically high speed, high motion blur segments.

 

[-griffy-]

It has some form of AF, not an excellent one but it's totally workable for a game with typically high speed, high motion blur segments.

I don't know, I'd argue that racing games almost demand a higher level of AF since the flat road surface extending away from you is always a prominent element, and as such low AF is especially noticeable.

It's probably the one major drawback to the IQ in both Horizons 2 and Driveclub.

 

[Noobcraft]

I don't know, I'd argue that racing games almost demand a higher level of AF since the flat road surface extending away from you is always a prominent element, and as such low AF is especially noticeable.

It's probably the one major drawback to the IQ in both Horizons 2 and Driveclub.

Yeah the road surface has always been good at that, but I don't think the solutions in Driveclub or Forza Horizon 2 are bad, they could be better but in motion I haven't noticed many issues.

Minecraft PS4/Xbox One are inexcusably bad on the AF front though.

 

[RedAssedApe]

who wants to start a class action against sony for their broken AF on ps4?

 

[dr_rus]

So guys...

A. AF being off or low in PS4 exclusives is a design decision. AF isn't "free" even though its cost is low on GCN and other modern GPU architectures. Thus lowering it in a title which is struggling to hit 30 fps may lead to actually hitting these 30 fps instead of floating near 28.

B. AF being off in PS4 versions of PS4/XBO multiplatforms can be due to a number of reasons and doesn't prove much. But for the love of all that is holy PLEASE STOP posting that bullcrap about AF being off on PS4 because of bandwidth limitations. AF is a perfectly cached operation on modern GPUs and since PS4 and XBO uses the same GPU tech it is rather clear that memory bandwidth can't be the reason for this as PS4 actually have two times more of that.

C. AF being off in PS4 versions of PS3 titles. This is the main offender here really as there is no reason for that at all. Combined with XBO providing AF in 1080p in the same titles this really points to an issue with some porting software which is seems to be broken in regards to properly transferring AF settings to PS4 code. I don't see any other reasonable explanation for what we're looking at.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

According to NX Gamer seems like all the games so far with AF issues are based on DX11 API ports so XB1 has the advantage due to last gen XB360 used ESRAM & DX11, but for PS4 its API for AF needs work specific to its hardware which some developers did not want to look into their games in porting.

I read somewhere from someone at Sony (I know, I know I'll try to find the link) that the API's that the developers can choose from can either be low level DIY API (GNM) or highly DX compatible API (GNMX)

However when using the latter it uses much more resources to make it "work".

Edit: here's the link...

A more crucial issue is that, while the PS4 toolchain is designed to be familiar to those working on PC, the new Sony hardware doesn't use the DirectX API, so Sony has supplied two of their own.

"The graphics APIs are brand new - they don't have any legacy baggage, so they're quite clean, well thought-out and match the hardware really well," says Reflections' expert programmer Simon O'Connor.

"At the lowest level there's an API called GNM. That gives you nearly full control of the GPU. It gives you a lot of potential power and flexibility on how you program things. Driving the GPU at that level means more work."

Sony has talked about its lower-level API at GDC, but wouldn't disclose its name, so at least now we know what it's called (the PS3 equivalent is GCM, for what it's worth) but what about the "wrapper" code supplied by Sony that is supposed to make development simpler?

"Most people start with the GNMX API which wraps around GNM and manages the more esoteric GPU details in a way that's a lot more familiar if you're used to platforms like D3D11. We started with the high-level one but eventually we moved to the low-level API because it suits our uses a little better," says O'Connor, explaining that while GNMX is a lot simpler to work with, it removes much of the custom access to the PS4 GPU, and also incurs a significant CPU hit.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-how-the-crew-was-ported-to-playstation-4

Could the "Significant CPU hit" be an issue depending on what API developers are utilising?

 

[Fury451]

who wants to start a class action against sony for their broken AF on ps4?

...not sure if serious....

I'm going with not, but it's really hard to tell sometimes.

 

[KKRT00]

It has some form of AF, not an excellent one but it's totally workable for a game with typically high speed, high motion blur segments.

Thats 4x.

 

[dan2026]

18 pages in. It seems like we still know nothing.

 

[Noobcraft]

Thats 4x.

I was kind of hoping someone would shed some light on it. Thanks

 

[JordanN]

...not sure if serious....

I'm going with not, but it's really hard to tell sometimes.

There's a guy already suing Sony over 1080p.