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Opinion PS5 focus is high performance, not high power. Are people underestimating the value of the approach?

Feb 25, 2013
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Nope. I'm trying to say that the sentiment "PS5 does clever things in hw only because they don't have the powah, mwahaha!" is a pretty bad idea.
And that's what I see here.



That was not the case that was discussed.
The case was: PS5 will go PC-first and then "port" to their custom arch.
Which is exactly throwing out all of the careful engineering down the drain.
How so? Do you know exactly how Sony plans to utilize all that "careful engineering"? Perhaps, if they've planned ahead with forward thinking coding, like Microsoft did, they've already taken all this into account and the things you guys are talking about this "special engineered hardware" can accomplish are just wishful thinking or theoretical and/or not what Sony had in mind to begin with... I don't know whether MS devs on PC first or what, but I know that, whatever they do, they have fantastically scaling ports... while also having custom silicon on their console while seemingly taking advantage of it.

Xbox

PC

I see no reason that Sony wouldn't be just as capable of doing the same thing if they wanted.

Also, another question, if it is so difficult to utilize all the "careful engineering" when developing for both PC and PS5 as you alluded to here,

I don't care about pixels, I care about the code, who will write it and how long will it take.
Supporting 2 code paths is much more expensive than 1 (more than 2x expensive, because you need to synchronize the two approaches frequently). And these code path will be very different.
Unless, you aim to not using the custom silicon at all beyond the most naive and simple things.
Then why would third parties take the extra time needed to utilize all of that "careful engineering" if they need to go through all the trouble of writing 2 and maintaining two code paths JUST for the PS5?

If anything, it would stand to reason that Sony themselves would have the easiest time of utilizing their own "careful engineering" if it is indeed as complicated as you make it out to be while porting their software to other hardware...

My entire point is this. If it is indeed something that only the PS5 can do and not PC or anything else because of how complex or advanced or unscalable it is. then I don't think third parties are going to be taking advantage of any of the features that would actually mean a visible difference in the way you have posited the SSD being used. And that would be a bad thing for third party devs and nearly any game that isn't a true console exclusive.

However, if what VFXVeteran VFXVeteran is saying is true, that Sony plans on putting their software on other platforms. Then I would think that their coders had forward thinking and planned ahead to both be able to utilize the "careful engineering" of the amazing console they just built and also the varied hardware seen in PC, like MS did. And that can only be a good thing for everyone in the long run. That is where it would make sense that it would be developed for PC first... But it wouldn't really matter where it was developed first as long as they plan ahead for it...

This thread is about PS5.

What the heck is wrong with you people?

"I think it is cool that PS5....."

"Bbbbut xbox have this and that, and 12 tflops!!" -all insecure childish xbots

Why it is so difficult to talk about PS5 and it's tech without having 10 xbox fanatics crying all around?

And then they have the nerve to claim everything is just damage control.

I guess it is this old phenomenom:

Xbox fanboys are so used to do damage control, that they really cant understand that some people just want to talk about the tech and what it can do, not compare their dicks?

Just unbelievable how many xbots spam their low IQ console warriorism and disgard everything as damage control.

Why there would even need to have damage control? It is clear that xbox have more raw power, rest is uncertain until games are out

Gen havent even started and there is no real damage, specs are specs and people dont just walk into store and ask "console with most tflops please"
Dude, you need to take a chill pill. I was merely using xbox as an example to show that just because you have "custom silicon" in the box doesn't mean that you can't think forwardly with your code if you want to both take advantage of that "custom silicon" and also port your software to PC... Because that's exactly what Microsoft does right now and I think Sony are completely capable of doing the same. This is what the conversation was and I didn't even bring it up. Maybe you should be hounding the one that did if you think it's off topic? And you'll have to forgive me for not knowing exactly what is on topic since there are like a million threads trying to explain the power of the PS5 on Sony's behalf all in different ways... Plus, the OP does mention XSX as a comparison so...

I've seen you make several aggressive post like this and it does nothing but make YOU look like the fanboy with how emotional you are getting.
 

OSC

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Then I would think that their coders had forward thinking and planned ahead to both be able to utilize the "careful engineering" of the amazing console they just built and also the varied hardware seen in PC, like MS did. And that can only be a good thing for everyone in the long run. That is where it would make sense that it would be developed for PC first..
Suppose, in an open world, 30~ft radius around you there is high LOD 8GB of data. Unless there's the same data past that radius, you might need an additional 8GB of data. which could be different 8GB depending on direction. How would the average PC handle that? With the hdds, I think the only solutions would be to either lower the quality of assets or cut the variety of assets and repeat assets.


Current gen games on pc appear to use less than 4GB of graphical data, if that benchmark site, I linked, ain't lying. The more powerful gpus are using the same assets and either increasing resolution or increasing framerate. These more powerful h/w running at 100-150+fps could probably use higher quality assets at 30 to 60 fps but the hdd is there limiting things. In theory you could use 10GB of ram for graphical assets, but then you'd have massive loading and you either keep repeating that data for a large area or restrict to small areas with massive loading.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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If true then it's likely not available either in RDNA2 nor nvidia's next gen architecture.

That seems to conflict with the following statement straight from microsoft

Only way would be if rdna2 cards weren't directx 12 ultimate compliant. But according to amd they are.


Now does this mean ps5 has it? Maybe maybe not, perhaps it's part rdna2 but not full rdna2.
He's saying that the particular technique is not just a general RDNA 2 feature as some seem to believe, and is instead custom made specifically for Xbox Series X.

He's saying that everything people have heard about Xbox Velocity Architecture should not automatically be expected to be apart of every RDNA 2 product. That, however, doesn't mean that some of the core features that make the velocity architecture possible, such as Sampler Feedback, can't be supported hardware features of RDNA 2, which it is.

It sounds to me as if Microsoft adapted one of the newer DX12 Ultimate features, and a core feature supported by RDNA 2, specifically for Xbox Series X by building a custom streaming technique designed to take full advantage of the feature. Digital Foundry confirms there is bespoke hardware on the Series X's GPU designed for this also.

Xbox Velocity Architecture is comprised of 4 specific features.


Xbox Velocity Architecture –
The Xbox Velocity Architecture is the new architecture we’ve created for the Xbox Series X to unlock new capabilities never-before seen in console development. It consists of four components: our custom NVMe SSD, a dedicated hardware decompression block, the all new DirectStorage API, and Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS). This combination of custom hardware and deep software integration allows developers to radically improve asset streaming and effectively multiply available memory. It will enable richer and more dynamic living worlds unlike anything ever seen before. It also effectively eliminates loading times, and makes fast travel systems just that: fast.


In other words, Microsoft is taking ownership of the overall hardware and software implementation of specific features for Xbox Series X's velocity architecture, some core features of which also happen to be supported by RDNA 2. Clearly Microsoft did so much custom work on the implementation side that they can say it isn't a general part of RDNA 2 and is all custom to Xbox.
 
Feb 25, 2013
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Suppose, in an open world, 30~ft radius around you there is high LOD 8GB of data. Unless there's the same data past that radius, you might need an additional 8GB of data. which could be different 8GB depending on direction. How would the average PC handle that? With the hdds, I think the only solutions would be to either lower the quality of assets or cut the variety of assets and repeat assets.


Current gen games on pc appear to use less than 4GB of graphical data, if that benchmark site, I linked, ain't lying. The more powerful gpus are using the same assets and either increasing resolution or increasing framerate. These more powerful h/w running at 100-150+fps could probably use higher quality assets at 30 to 60 fps but the hdd is there limiting things. In theory you could use 10GB of ram for graphical assets, but then you'd have massive loading and you either keep repeating that data for a large area or restrict to small areas with massive loading.
First off, I don't know the answer, jsyk. But if you are trying to give a hypothetical scenario of something that the PS5 could do that the PC couldn't based on your own theoretical understanding of PS5 hardware... I would just say that it's ok and fun to theorize. However, do you really know that Sony even want's to use the SSD or other "custom silicon" in that exact way where it would hobble their capabilities to port anything to PC? I think it's really important that everyone knows that this stuff we are all talking about is all theoretical, unless we have sources, so hopes don't get raised and crushed leading to hard feelings and such.

My answer would be that I don't know, but if Sony really does want to try to utilize their hardware to the fullest while also porting to PC they will have figured it out. Even if concessions need to be made on one side or the other. And perhaps there are ways to utilize it without needing to make compromises. They just may not be ways you expect them to use it.

No matter what, Sony are still going to be bringing amazing first party software. Regardless of what it's on. The thing that everyone should be happy about is that ALL devs now have more power to play with and moving up the bottom line, especially away from these ancient cpu's, is going to massively affect the gaming landscape for everyone.

And just to add a little speculative side note. Diversifying the reach of their software would be a huge boon to them right now IMO if the economy indeed stays nuked or doesn't bounce back fast... People are going to be far more likely to afford or want to spend money on a $60 game rather than an expesive box on top of that atm and for the foreseeable future unfortunately. So utilizing whatever hardware they can to make up the difference would be smart. Though I do think it's smart regardless.
 

psorcerer

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Perhaps, if they've planned ahead with forward thinking coding, like Microsoft did
Did where? Last gen MSFT had unbelievably bad software support compared to Sony.
Sony beat them on their own field: Visual Studio for PS4 was light years above Xone.

they have fantastically scaling ports... while also having custom silicon on their console while seemingly taking advantage of it
There is no magic in software.

Also, another question, if it is so difficult to utilize all the "careful engineering"
Are you listening?
It's not difficult. It's just not the same.
It's easy, Cerny specifically said that the learning curve was reduced to <1 month.
But it's different. Different != Difficult.
If everything stays the same, there is no innovation.

writing 2 and maintaining two code paths JUST for the PS5?
It's the other way around.
If your primary target is PC then you need a different code path to utilize PS5.
If your primary target is PS5, I don't see any problem: cut here, cut there, it works.

That is where it would make sense that it would be developed for PC first...
It never makes sense to develop PC first. Because PC is a generic moving target.
It makes sense only for multiplatform, because it cuts costs. At the expense of graphics, assets, details, etc.
 

MHubert

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Dec 22, 2019
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Yes. This is not new. The GTX 2080Ti can push higher bandwidth and most PCs had regular HDDs. The SSDs still sped up loading.

The advantages that Cerny was talking about was comparing PS5 to last gen's really slow I/O PS4. In that case, yes, it will greatly speed up the pipeline. Now that you have a very fast SSD (5.5G/s) you can build larger worlds, etc.. but that doesn't mean the graphics pipeline will speed up. The graphics pipeline needs as much bandwidth as it can swallow. 5.5G/s is way too slow compared to 448G/s memory bandwidth. The idea is to get as much data into resident RAM so that the GPU/CPU can do their thing. PS4 had a bottleneck at the I/O level because of it's slow HDD. But it is still limited to a bandwidth number as far as the graphics pipe is concerned. The PS5, XSX, and PC are no different.
Then I think we might be talking past each other. I am well aware that the ssd isn't going to make the GPU push more pixels on the screen, hence the ram bandwith. I might not have been clear so I will try to rephrase again: Will a game that was programmed to depend on a continuous (as in constant) transfer stream of say 2GB/s of compressed data/assets from the ssd to ram have an impact on the performance of the GPU or CPU. From your response, it seems that there will be no impact on the systems capabilities to run the game, which I find hard to believe despite my limited knowledge on the subject, since I can see on my PC that copying data from my harddrive to my ram uses a substantial amount of CPU cycles.
 

VFXVeteran

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It never makes sense to develop PC first. Because PC is a generic moving target.
It makes sense only for multiplatform, because it cuts costs. At the expense of graphics, assets, details, etc.
And yet, that is exactly what's happening at some Sony studios. Look, I've asked before and never got an answer. Are you a console developer specifically for the PS? Because you wouldn't be saying these things if you really worked at a Sony company.
 

VFXVeteran

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Then I think we might be talking past each other. I am well aware that the ssd isn't going to make the GPU push more pixels on the screen, hence the ram bandwith. I might not have been clear so I will try to rephrase again: Will a game that was programmed to depend on a continuous (as in constant) transfer stream of say 2GB/s of compressed data/assets from the ssd to ram have an impact on the performance of the GPU or CPU. From your response, it seems that there will be no impact on the systems capabilities to run the game, which I find hard to believe despite my limited knowledge on the subject, since I can see on my PC that copying data from my harddrive to my ram uses a substantial amount of CPU cycles.
What tool are you using to monitor CPU cycles from HDD to RAM?
What's the game that you are seeing this?
What's the graphics settings? What's the FPS?
 
Feb 25, 2013
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Did where? Last gen MSFT had unbelievably bad software support compared to Sony.
Sony beat them on their own field: Visual Studio for PS4 was light years above Xone.
I was referring to MS's own ports of their own software. No where did I compare MS software to Sony's, nor did I intend to. My intent is not to Vs, but to show that I think it is possible with Sony as well....

There is no magic in software.
Are you trying to tell me that every coder is the same amount of talent? Even if that where true, they are only as good as whatever you point them to do... Anyway, like I said, this isn't a Vs. I am merely trying to show that I think Sony can do it as well since it's already been shown to be possible...
Are you listening?
It's not difficult. It's just not the same.
It's easy, Cerny specifically said that the learning curve was reduced to <1 month.
But it's different. Different != Difficult.
If everything stays the same, there is no innovation.
No. I was referring to the below where you made it seem like to utilize the full potential of the "careful engineering" you would NEED to dev for PS5 first and developing on PC first would be difficult...

It's the other way around.
If your primary target is PC then you need a different code path to utilize PS5.
If your primary target is PS5, I don't see any problem: cut here, cut there, it works.
Maybe I'm dumb but I don't see how you would need a different codepath. To my understanding Devs who want to put their software on differing hardware already develop their assets at crazy levels and trim them down for whatever hardware they want, while also leaving those assets there for future hardware. Are there different codepaths for all of that? I already showed you that other consoles had custom silicon and where able to do this already while seemingly utilizing their power, maybe they where using different codepaths, I don't know. All I know is that it is being done and it is really nice.

What I think you are trying to say though, is that the PS5 SSD provides functionality that cannot be scaled at all on PC. Where if you would utilize the "careful engineering" to it's fullest degree you would actually have to cut bells and whistles to port it to PC. This would be literally the only way I could see needing to dev first on console rather than PC since PC wouldn't be the highest common denominator that you could just scale down from... literally only in terms of the SSD... But you are presuming that Sony wants to utilize their SSD in exactly this one way that would bind them like this.
It never makes sense to develop PC first. Because PC is a generic moving target.
It makes sense only for multiplatform, because it cuts costs. At the expense of graphics, assets, details, etc.
Edit: NVM on this last one, I'm being pulled in five different directions rn by kids and wrote that wrong. What I said above answers this I think.
 
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MHubert

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What tool are you using to monitor CPU cycles from HDD to RAM?
What's the game that you are seeing this?
What's the graphics settings? What's the FPS?
I'm just using Resource Monitor, and the game is Europa Universalis 4 (all DLC), high graphics and don't know about fps. I see Cpu spikes as data is moved into ram in the loading section.
 

VFXVeteran

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I'm just using Resource Monitor, and the game is Europa Universalis 4 (all DLC), high graphics and don't know about fps. I see Cpu spikes as data is moved into ram in the loading section.
How much RAM do you have? It would be extremely hard to assume it's because the SSD is too slow. You'd literally have to troubleshoot the code and do performance testing. If you have enough RAM, load the entire game into a RAMdisk and see if you still get CPU spikes.
 

MHubert

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How much RAM do you have? It would be extremely hard to assume it's because the SSD is too slow. You'd literally have to troubleshoot the code and do performance testing. If you have enough RAM, load the entire game into a RAMdisk and see if you still get CPU spikes.
It's actually a 5400 rpm drive, could that make a difference? I have 8gb ram; will give the ramdisk thing a try, maybe with a smaller game. After getting some sleep :)
 

Xaero Gravity

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This thread is about PS5.

What the heck is wrong with you people?

"I think it is cool that PS5....."

"Bbbbut xbox have this and that, and 12 tflops!!" -all insecure childish xbots

Why it is so difficult to talk about PS5 and it's tech without having 10 xbox fanatics crying all around?

And then they have the nerve to claim everything is just damage control.

I guess it is this old phenomenom:

Xbox fanboys are so used to do damage control, that they really cant understand that some people just want to talk about the tech and what it can do, not compare their dicks?

Just unbelievable how many xbots spam their low IQ console warriorism and disgard everything as damage control.

Why there would even need to have damage control? It is clear that xbox have more raw power, rest is uncertain until games are out

Gen havent even started and there is no real damage, specs are specs and people dont just walk into store and ask "console with most tflops please"
To be fair, using terms like "xbot" makes you about as ridiculous as the idiots causing you to breakdown mentally.
 
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OSC

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Well, I guess you need to tell your cohorts not to do that, because they are doing it.
If a pc has dozens of GBs of ram or over 100-200~GB of ram, it'd be able to handle anything the ps5's ssd can throw as the entire game could be in ram.

But otherwise I can imagine that ps5 games can be up to 200+GB easy, with compression occupying 80-100~GB on ssd. If you're going to exploit the ps5's ssd, things like the kraken decompressor take 9 ryzen cores of performance and basically increase output 2-4~x. IF the ssd bottlenecks are as significant as Cerny made them out to be, you might not be able to approach performance relying solely on ssds.

There's a reason there exist ps5 dev. kits. You probably need to know how the software behaves in the actual h/w.

But there can be developers not making the most of the ssd either.

Way I see it unlike this gen. with less than 4~GB of graphic assets in memory, the ps5 can easily have 12+GB of graphics assets.

edit: That said it is conceivable sony also has pcie ssds for pc with both the custom controller and custom i/o logic.
 
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Renozokii

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LOL, I can't tell if you are being serious; you either are trolling or being intentionally obtuse....or maybe both. Instead of addressing all of the inaccuracies in your post, what do you think will be the difference in Frame-Rate and Resolution from this 'Substantial' power difference?

To simplify things, it will help you be more realistic to think about power differences in percentages vs raw flops. The XSX will have about 10x TF of XOne; do you expect the XSX to be able to push 10X the pixels?
>Instead of addressing all of the inaccuracies in your post, what do you think will be the difference in Frame-Rate and Resolution from this 'Substantial' power difference?

I think framerate disparities will be more present in performance modes in games that by default go for 60fps. I think with more demanding games later on in the life cycle we'll games with dynamic resolution that will obviously favor the Series X. I think more demanding games will be at a consistent 60fps on series x, while they wll stutter on the PS5. Finally I think Microsofts biggest exclusives will visually and technically out do Sonys. Given this gen it seems to be a reasonable perspective.

>To simplify things, it will help you be more realistic to think about power differences in percentages vs raw flops. The XSX will have about 10x TF of XOne; do you expect the XSX to be able to push 10X the pixels?

I very simply think devs aren't going to stop pushing consoles to their limits as they always have, and I think the Series X has a decently sized larger limit.
 

OSC

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Finally I think Microsofts biggest exclusives will visually and technically out do Sonys. Given this gen it seems to be a reasonable perspective.
This gen it seems sony's exclusives were the better looking games, and the gap was bigger.
 

Son_of_Zardoz

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Yes the PS5 has an awesomely fast SSD, but I don't get how that somehow means the XSX is full of bottlenecks like what is being assumed? Both systems seem to have a ton of thought put into efficiency yet for some strange reason it's turned into PS5 is balanced/well thought out while XSX is BRUTE FORCED.

SPECIAL EDITION PLEASE:



Bottom line is that they will both be awesome and we're gonna have our minds blown this holiday season (please stay on schedule, please stay on schedule, please...)
 
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Renozokii

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This gen it seems sony's exclusives were the better looking games, and the gap was bigger.
Sorry, the last part of my sentence was talking about my entire perspective. I think it's a reasonable assumption to think the PS5 will take the xbox ones place in being slightly worse at running most games, except here the gap is bigger.
 

onQ123

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The thread was locked but this is the best example of higher fill rate & rasterization vs higher TFLOPS , people keep saying that it's not a good comparison because of the different architectures but the reason for the different architecture is to achieve this balance .

You get the same result if you overclock a Vega 56 vs a standard Vega 64 games have different bottlenecks so when compute isn't the limiting factor the GPU with higher fill rate , rasterization & other things will have the advantage.



 

Riven326

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This gen it seems sony's exclusives were the better looking games, and the gap was bigger.
This is actually a very good point. PS5 might end up being fthe lesser machine with superior looking games simply because Sony's first party developers are so talented.

That being said, I think third party games will be superior on the series x.
 
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