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PS5 SSD (no no, keep reading) has a DRAM cache

LordOfChaos

Member




Yeah, SSD thread, but interesting detail noted in the teardown. On top of the sizable SRAM cache in the IO complex, the SSD itself has an adjacent DRAM cache, which can be used to cache reads and writes for closer to instant access, as well as keep access tables in it. The more you can "spool" may also reduce wear.
 
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KLyIB9d.gif
 
This seems a relatively minor difference between the two consoles? The Tweet is baiting replies with "Cheap PC SSD's don't have DRAM cache and are fine for light work loads".
 
I'm excited for ridiculously high quality textures, bump maps, and 3d models. Its interesting to finally see a console pulling ahead of my ludicrous PC for once, hopefully PC games don't take too long to adopt SSD's for minimum spec. I'm imagining we'll be able to get away with a bit less raw SSD speeds with higher PC ram and vram counts. It'll be an interesting next few years for sure.
 
We already knew this tho? I don't think the SRAM cache is actually that sizable; depending on the performance metrics of the SRAM, it's anywhere between 256K to 4 MB.

MS uses a portion of the GDDR6 (the 2.5 GB reserved for the OS) as the cache interface. Granted, there's about 76 MB of SRAM cache on the GPU and some analysis weren't able to determine where all of that is. It's possible aside from the constant caches some of that could theoretically be as an SSD cache.

A few really good posts on B3D gave some insightful thoughts on MS's solution and especially when you look at their research papers regarding some of their R&D on flash storage solutions (FlashMap, etc.), it makes sense. To PSU's claims, well of course a SSD with a DRAM cache will have benefits over one without a DRAM cache, but they seem to be framing it as if Series X has no cache set aside for SSD data at all, which is a weird assumption. It's likely a portion of the 2.5 GB reserved GDDR6 set aside for this, which might also explain why they needed to go with proprietary expandable storage options (again, this stuff was talked about months ago in other threads, and if you search a few threads on B3D you'll eventually come across the posts giving their insight on MS's setup or you can try searching the Velocity Architecture thread here where I have a post linking the quotes in question).

It's almost childish sometimes these websites feel some instinct to always frame these discussions as ways to applaud one system by pegging another like it has a deficiency. Is gaming press truly that immature these days?
 
I previously thought they didn't have a cache for the controller. But this lines up with Mark Cerny saying they worked to remove as much bottleneck as possible with the IO and subsystems. The IO has a super fast SRAM cache, the SSD controller has a very fast DRAM cache so when data is moved it would be as smooth as possible without having to rely on the lookup table residing in the system RAM or NAND itself. Everything moves in one smooth continuous bottleneck free way from Storage to RAM

sony_ps5_ssd_graphic.jpg
 
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I can only assume that you guys don't know what the phrase "worth its salt" means.

Well, there's the question of the relevant competition. And DRAMless drives aren't worthless, especially the ones with SLC cache. They have plenty of life span, good perf, and great pricing. Especially for boot drives; booting is mostly random reads with very little writes, writes are where they suffer most.

We know what worth their salt means, but this is hyperbole.

Also, how do you know this?

The teardowns from almost 6 months ago. It's a chip you literally see. Its solution is to cache in RAM, which as I said above, just means less RAM, and is further from the drive.
 
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We already knew this tho? I don't think the SRAM cache is actually that sizable; depending on the performance metrics of the SRAM, it's anywhere between 256K to 4 MB.

MS uses a portion of the GDDR6 (the 2.5 GB reserved for the OS) as the cache interface. Granted, there's about 76 MB of SRAM cache on the GPU and some analysis weren't able to determine where all of that is. It's possible aside from the constant caches some of that could theoretically be as an SSD cache.

A few really good posts on B3D gave some insightful thoughts on MS's solution and especially when you look at their research papers regarding some of their R&D on flash storage solutions (FlashMap, etc.), it makes sense. To PSU's claims, well of course a SSD with a DRAM cache will have benefits over one without a DRAM cache, but they seem to be framing it as if Series X has no cache set aside for SSD data at all, which is a weird assumption. It's likely a portion of the 2.5 GB reserved GDDR6 set aside for this, which might also explain why they needed to go with proprietary expandable storage options (again, this stuff was talked about months ago in other threads, and if you search a few threads on B3D you'll eventually come across the posts giving their insight on MS's setup or you can try searching the Velocity Architecture thread here where I have a post linking the quotes in question).

It's almost childish sometimes these websites feel some instinct to always frame these discussions as ways to applaud one system by pegging another like it has a deficiency. Is gaming press truly that immature these days?
Good, I came here to get more details about PS5 DRAM and we already have a discussion bringing how god MS solution is...
 
We know that Xbox does not have DRAM cache?

We would see a DRAM chip in the teardowns from nearly 6 months ago. Their solution appears to be to cache in RAM, which is just that much less RAM and further removed from the SSD controller.
 
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We already knew this tho? I don't think the SRAM cache is actually that sizable; depending on the performance metrics of the SRAM, it's anywhere between 256K to 4 MB.

MS uses a portion of the GDDR6 (the 2.5 GB reserved for the OS) as the cache interface. Granted, there's about 76 MB of SRAM cache on the GPU and some analysis weren't able to determine where all of that is. It's possible aside from the constant caches some of that could theoretically be as an SSD cache.

A few really good posts on B3D gave some insightful thoughts on MS's solution and especially when you look at their research papers regarding some of their R&D on flash storage solutions (FlashMap, etc.), it makes sense. To PSU's claims, well of course a SSD with a DRAM cache will have benefits over one without a DRAM cache, but they seem to be framing it as if Series X has no cache set aside for SSD data at all, which is a weird assumption. It's likely a portion of the 2.5 GB reserved GDDR6 set aside for this, which might also explain why they needed to go with proprietary expandable storage options (again, this stuff was talked about months ago in other threads, and if you search a few threads on B3D you'll eventually come across the posts giving their insight on MS's setup or you can try searching the Velocity Architecture thread here where I have a post linking the quotes in question).

It's almost childish sometimes these websites feel some instinct to always frame these discussions as ways to applaud one system by pegging another like it has a deficiency. Is gaming press truly that immature these days?
Holy cope, batman.
My sweet summer child, I think you're overhyping Micronsoft's solution bigly. And I won't fall for it.
 
Good, I came here to get more details about PS5 DRAM and we already have a discussion bringing how god MS solution is...

The article the OP linked mentioned Series X itself. And I talked about PS5's SSD in the same quote. The only reason I added the extra stuff is because some people have a tendency to read articles like this and then use them for FUD WRT alternative solutions, and that stifles genuine discussion in the near future (let alone the present) when looking at all solutions.

I never even mentioned the two as a direct comparison of one being better than the other, just illustrating how it might be handling SSD caching differently. You guys need to stop being so overly defensive about this stuff, do you want to have more informed technical discussions or don't you?

Holy cope, batman.
My sweet summer child, I think you're overhyping Micronsoft's solution bigly. And I won't fall for it.

I'm not overhyping anything, I'm sharing some insight on what approach they might be using for data caching from the SSD that is logical and observable based on what we're seeing from tests, from what other knowledgeable people have spoken of, and from R&D research papers (some manifested as actual products) that MS have regarding flash storage.

There was no direct comparisons being made, the fact so many of you are acting like there was simply for me elucidating that (contrary to the article's suggestion) MS have no cache for their storage solution, is immature and low-effort. A lot of you don't seem to want genuine, nuanced technical discussions around here unless they are dipped in fanboying rhetoric and that's pretty sad.

Lots of cheaper SSDs don't, and the Series X doesn't. They can cache some in RAM, but that's that much less RAM.

The RAM is from the already specified 2.5 GB reserved pool the OS resides in.
 
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And DRAMless drives aren't worthless, especially the ones with SLC cache.
I didn't say drives without DRAM are worthless.

They have plenty of life span, good perf, and great pricing. Especially for boot drives; booting is mostly random reads with very little writes, writes are where they suffer most.
Nothing I said runs counter to that either.

The teardowns from almost 6 months ago. It's a chip you literally see.
I don't see it. Link to the specific part?
 
We would see a DRAM chip in the teardowns from nearly 6 months ago. Their solution appears to be to cache in RAM, which is just that much less RAM and further removed from the SSD controller.
Yeah but whole that SSD portion is shielded in some cage, so that teardown does not really told much about it.
 
Yeah but whole that SSD portion is shielded in some cage, so that teardown does not really told much about it.

Sorry, it was the Phison engineer posting, rather. By thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best 's own posting, Microsoft has also published research on the subject for caching and mapping through main system RAM.

 
Sorry, it was the Phison engineer posting, rather. By thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best 's own posting, Microsoft has also published research on the subject for caching and mapping through main system RAM.

That doesn't confirm anything.

Based on previous leaks from a Phison engineer, the Xbox Series X will actually be a DRAM-less solid state drive that likely uses QLC flash memory. This means the drive will be cheaper to make, and that the Xbox Series X will need to have some sort of on-board DRAM allocated specifically for the system storage.

The next-gen Xbox may use the Phison PS5019-E19T memory controller.

Microsoft has yet to reveal specifics, but Phison did release a video on the E19T memory controller and specifically mentioned gaming consoles in the reel.
 
What I can say is that if the Falconeer's 13 second load time is in the ballpark of other next gen game load times on the XSX then PS5's SSD and I/O structure is leaps and bounds better and its a difference that will be noticeable to consumers.
 
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Some of you dweebs.. You're allowed to frame information and ask questions about what you don't know. You don't have to act like you understand it and then turn it into console wars. We already knew the PS5 I/O is faster. This is nothing revelatory.
 




Yeah, SSD thread, but interesting detail noted in the teardown. On top of the sizable SRAM cache in the IO complex, the SSD itself has an adjacent DRAM cache, which can be used to cache reads and writes for closer to instant access, as well as keep access tables in it. The more you can "spool" may also reduce wear.


Quality, top-tier SSD's have DRAM's, not surprised at all. :messenger_bicep::messenger_sunglasses:
 
We already knew this tho? I don't think the SRAM cache is actually that sizable; depending on the performance metrics of the SRAM, it's anywhere between 256K to 4 MB.

MS uses a portion of the GDDR6 (the 2.5 GB reserved for the OS) as the cache interface. Granted, there's about 76 MB of SRAM cache on the GPU and some analysis weren't able to determine where all of that is. It's possible aside from the constant caches some of that could theoretically be as an SSD cache.

A few really good posts on B3D gave some insightful thoughts on MS's solution and especially when you look at their research papers regarding some of their R&D on flash storage solutions (FlashMap, etc.), it makes sense. To PSU's claims, well of course a SSD with a DRAM cache will have benefits over one without a DRAM cache, but they seem to be framing it as if Series X has no cache set aside for SSD data at all, which is a weird assumption. It's likely a portion of the 2.5 GB reserved GDDR6 set aside for this, which might also explain why they needed to go with proprietary expandable storage options (again, this stuff was talked about months ago in other threads, and if you search a few threads on B3D you'll eventually come across the posts giving their insight on MS's setup or you can try searching the Velocity Architecture thread here where I have a post linking the quotes in question).

It's almost childish sometimes these websites feel some instinct to always frame these discussions as ways to applaud one system by pegging another like it has a deficiency. Is gaming press truly that immature these days?
So Microsoft complied a version of smartdrv.exe from their DOS days and called it a day.

That's not the same as having dedicated hardware to do the caching.

MS sells you a low end disk at a high end price... Then they claim OS level ram cache is the same as actual disk cache, well call Samsung, Western digital and many more to let them know because they have spent all that r&d money for naught for ages now.
 
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Thought DRAM had only an effect on write-cycles of the SSD?

If so, there really is no point in having an SSD with DRAM in a gaming system, where you primarily load, read from it (and not so often write to it). That chip looks like it could be the extra ram on the PS5, like with the PS4, PS4 Pro?
 
Thought DRAM had only an effect on write-cycles of the SSD?

If so, there really is no point in having an SSD with DRAM in a gaming system, where you primarily load, read from it (and not so often write to it). That chip looks like it could be the extra ram on the PS5, like with the PS4, PS4 Pro?

To stream in, you need to stream out, i.e evict old data out of RAM into the SSD to stream more in. The write speed will be relevant here. DRAM also houses lookup tables and can halve latencies vs other drives.
 
We already knew this tho? I don't think the SRAM cache is actually that sizable; depending on the performance metrics of the SRAM, it's anywhere between 256K to 4 MB.

MS uses a portion of the GDDR6 (the 2.5 GB reserved for the OS) as the cache interface. Granted, there's about 76 MB of SRAM cache on the GPU and some analysis weren't able to determine where all of that is. It's possible aside from the constant caches some of that could theoretically be as an SSD cache.

A few really good posts on B3D gave some insightful thoughts on MS's solution and especially when you look at their research papers regarding some of their R&D on flash storage solutions (FlashMap, etc.), it makes sense. To PSU's claims, well of course a SSD with a DRAM cache will have benefits over one without a DRAM cache, but they seem to be framing it as if Series X has no cache set aside for SSD data at all, which is a weird assumption. It's likely a portion of the 2.5 GB reserved GDDR6 set aside for this, which might also explain why they needed to go with proprietary expandable storage options (again, this stuff was talked about months ago in other threads, and if you search a few threads on B3D you'll eventually come across the posts giving their insight on MS's setup or you can try searching the Velocity Architecture thread here where I have a post linking the quotes in question).

It's almost childish sometimes these websites feel some instinct to always frame these discussions as ways to applaud one system by pegging another like it has a deficiency. Is gaming press truly that immature these days?

You are talking about onboard SRAM available inside the main SoC. Yes, we knew about that in Cerny's talk. OP is about having DRAM on the flash controller which is new information.

Good post though.
 
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