pasterpl
Member
interesting write up about “secret sauce” In both consoles.
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PS5 vs Xbox Series X ‘Secret Sauce’ – SSD Speed And Velocity Architecture
- Thread starter pasterpl
- Start date
interesting write up about “secret sauce” In both consoles.
martino
Member
not for 98% of them
Entroyp
Member
Well... apparently MS has some magic compression technique that almost compensates for the difference in I/O speed. That’s the first time I’ve heard of that.
ResilientBanana
Member
Honestly, Microsoft has been on top of compression for some time now. It's also mentioned that Microsoft has dedicated hardware for Compression / Decompression. With the datasets below factoring in hardware bassed compression for the cloud in a small PCI form factor, I'm sure including this technology in the XSX will help massive datasets move in a short period of time. I'm speculating that maybe Microsoft doesn't need a ton of bandwidth to accomplish what Sony is. This could also be the reason why Phil mentions that the developers can get 100GB instantly. Microsoft was able to accomplish this without CPU latency at PCIe 3.0 speeds.
Microsoft Project Corsica ASIC Delivers 100Gbps Zipline Performance
Built by Broadcom and Microsoft, the new Project Corsica ASIC is designed to deliver 100Gbps Zipline compression and encryption offload performance
www.servethehome.com
A joint project between Broadcom and Microsoft, Project Corsica takes the project’s logic and turns it into an ASIC capable of handling 100Gbps of encryption/ compression. The ASIC is found on a relatively simple PCIe x16 card (required at Gen3 speeds for 100Gbps) showing why such an approach can yield huge benefits. The companies claim that the ASIC is 15-25 times faster than doing the same work on a CPU leading to substantially lower latency.
EDIT: I'll certainly be posting this in other SSD threads as no one else seems to have ever looked at, or knew of this technology.
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Another SSD thread tho?
Birdo
Banned
Don't be harsh on them. It's all they have right now.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
These write-ups are virtually meaningless. There are too many things regarding the memory controllers and NAND on both systems to know how they compare, such as:
-NAND module bandwidth
-NAND module latency
-NAND module random read on first page and block
-NAND module random read in general
-NAND module page size
-NAND module block size
-If either have a small cache (32 GB - 64 GB) of SLC NAND
-Speed ratings given (is the 5.5 GB/s the controller speed or the collective NAND speed in parallel? Same can be asked of XSX's 2.4 GB/s)
-How customized to texture compression/decompression/access is BCPack (there are already features for it on XSX that won't be available in the PC equivalent)?
-What exactly type of data can be compressed on Kraken to hit the theoretical 22 GB/s speed (from sounds of it, seems like a very small range of data would fit this)?
-SSD access on system GDDR6 bandwith (i.e when both are being accessed simultaneously, and how does this affect other functions of the system)
-Is the PS5's SSD performance a fixed, sustained rate or reference to a peak utilization rate that may only partially be reached in actual practice? Or, does it reach that but could suffer clock reductions from system power being stressed enough to require a drop in the speed rates on the drive (assuming it would be governed by the variable frequency setup of the rest of the system)?
-How big is the SRAM chunk in PS5's I/O controller (it definitely won't be any larger than 32 MB, so it's purpose is probably to serve better granularity (bit/byte level modification and send/receive) of certain data on the SSD that the GPU needs more granular control over).
We simply know barely much about either system's SSDs, so it's pretty premature to write these articles speculating "secret sauce" if none of these questions are taken into consideration. Personally I still expect PS5's setup to hold the edge when all's said and done, but I don't see the delta being anywhere near as massive on the SSD and I/O side as some seem to speculate.
-NAND module bandwidth
-NAND module latency
-NAND module random read on first page and block
-NAND module random read in general
-NAND module page size
-NAND module block size
-If either have a small cache (32 GB - 64 GB) of SLC NAND
-Speed ratings given (is the 5.5 GB/s the controller speed or the collective NAND speed in parallel? Same can be asked of XSX's 2.4 GB/s)
-How customized to texture compression/decompression/access is BCPack (there are already features for it on XSX that won't be available in the PC equivalent)?
-What exactly type of data can be compressed on Kraken to hit the theoretical 22 GB/s speed (from sounds of it, seems like a very small range of data would fit this)?
-SSD access on system GDDR6 bandwith (i.e when both are being accessed simultaneously, and how does this affect other functions of the system)
-Is the PS5's SSD performance a fixed, sustained rate or reference to a peak utilization rate that may only partially be reached in actual practice? Or, does it reach that but could suffer clock reductions from system power being stressed enough to require a drop in the speed rates on the drive (assuming it would be governed by the variable frequency setup of the rest of the system)?
-How big is the SRAM chunk in PS5's I/O controller (it definitely won't be any larger than 32 MB, so it's purpose is probably to serve better granularity (bit/byte level modification and send/receive) of certain data on the SSD that the GPU needs more granular control over).
We simply know barely much about either system's SSDs, so it's pretty premature to write these articles speculating "secret sauce" if none of these questions are taken into consideration. Personally I still expect PS5's setup to hold the edge when all's said and done, but I don't see the delta being anywhere near as massive on the SSD and I/O side as some seem to speculate.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
The “SSD secret sauce” talk started when people tried to claim the PS5’s storage bandwidth would single handedly allow for for better graphics and higher FPS.
As far as compression and whatnot, that’s not secret sauce. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the one issue with compressed data is takes more CPU usage to handle, basicslly?
Without compression, both consoles are still extremely fast. PS5 much more so but the XsX SSD will not be a bottleneck of any sort.
Im really excited for an all SSD future on consoles but I think people are building them up to be something they aren’t. They are a big deal, but they only account for so much of what you experience in game.
As far as compression and whatnot, that’s not secret sauce. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the one issue with compressed data is takes more CPU usage to handle, basicslly?
Without compression, both consoles are still extremely fast. PS5 much more so but the XsX SSD will not be a bottleneck of any sort.
Im really excited for an all SSD future on consoles but I think people are building them up to be something they aren’t. They are a big deal, but they only account for so much of what you experience in game.
Great Hair
Banned
...need a ton of bandwidth to accomplish what Sony is. This could also be the reason why Phil mentions that the developers can get 100GB instantly. Microsoft was able to accomplish this without CPU latency at PCIe 3.0 speeds.
Microsoft Project Corsica ASIC Delivers 100Gbps Zipline Performance
Built by Broadcom and Microsoft, the new Project Corsica ASIC is designed to deliver 100Gbps Zipline compression and encryption offload performance
Sorry but .log files, .txt files are no hefty task to compress.
Howto: Generate Many Files of a Particular Size in Windows
I was recently performing some performance testing that required me to copy many files of a particular size from one Windows workstation to a Windows file server. I had a [...]
thebackroomtech.com
using this, i generated 10,000 of them
For /L %i in (1,1,1000) do fsutil file createnew A%i.tmp 12288
total size 117Mb
ram usage while compressing 7zip (default) up to 450Mb)
final size 28Kb
ratio 425:1
ram usage while compressing 7zip (default) up to 450Mb)
final size 28Kb
ratio 425:1
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ResilientBanana
Member
It also mentioned application services. Cloud servers manage millions of users at one time, while on your single machine, this doesn't seem like much, but it's meant to handle scale, otherwise the hardware wouldn't exist. 10,000 files is literally a drop in the bucket compared to what these servers are achieving.Sorry but .log files, .txt files are no hefty task to compress.
Howto: Generate Many Files of a Particular Size in Windows
I was recently performing some performance testing that required me to copy many files of a particular size from one Windows workstation to a Windows file server. I had a [...]
using this, i generated 10,000 of them
For /L %i in (1,1,1000) do fsutil file createnew A%i.tmp 12288
total size 117Mb
ram usage while compressing 7zip (default) up to 450Mb)
final size 28Kb
ratio 425:1
Last edited:
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Article is nonsense, just read any of the SSD threads here, only Sony has custom tech in their console.
pasterpl
Member
what?
Potato Chip PRO
Member
No one seems to talk about cooling the systems...
A video uploaded the sametime has this thread about the same stuff but maybe with some new details and in depth info (idk, didn't finished watching the vid, I'm working now)
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MadchesterManc
Member
Velocity Architecture sounds goofier than the Move Engines
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Faster storage speeds can allow for better details in other areas. The problem when the specs were revealed, people said it will only result in 1-2 seconds of faster load times, but there was clearly more to it than that. Digital Foundry has talked about this in great detail and they believe it will bring in better fidelity in games, something people on here did not agree with.
When people tried to explain how SSDs will work, people just started saying, "It's not going to close the power gap in consoles" when that wasn't the point people on here were trying to make.
People tried to downplay the impact of the SSD when it's a major focus on next gen consoles, even more so with the PS5.
PS5 raw speeds are much faster, but the results still remain to be seen.
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kingpotato
Ask me about my Stream Deck
Is that even a good way to evaluate performance when we are still seeing games better optimized for PS4P than XBoX?
Bladed Thesis
Member
This thread has raised some ideas that we had not considered yesterday (much).
This is good.
This is good.
Optimistic Gamer
Member
Musky_Cheese
Banned
Data inside PS5
Data inside XSX
MilkyJoe
Member
Xbox is more powerful in every way, except the ssd. The PS5 SSD is multitudes slower than the gddr6 in the Xbox. It's not going to change the game that it loads into ram.
There is no such thing as secret sauce.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Note to Mods: This is quoted from here:
NeoGAF April Gif and Meme Contest. *Winner Gets Gold*
Welcome to the NeoGAF April 2020 Gif and Meme Contest To see last months contest click HERE!!! @deriks is last months winner with @deriks is now the 4 time Contest Champion. Rules 1. The Gif/Meme you submit must be your own creation. NO DIGGING UP OLD GIFS (KAZ GIFS) AND SUBMITTING...
You are a cheeky one
Gonna make mods think that I'm console warring here.
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Fun Fanboy
Banned
I don't even want a next gen console. I just want the PS5 ssd all by itself!
Thirty7ven
Banned
It’s obvious that “Velocity Architecture” is nothing more than a marketing name made up to fight perception.
There is no secret sauce guys, it’s all bullshit.
There is no secret sauce guys, it’s all bullshit.
Elenchus
Banned
So Gaming Bolt is claiming PS5 will run most games in 1800p and that XSX’s compression can allow up to 100gb to be streamed in? That’s insane.
I get that PS5 can stream in even more but really, when would you ever need more than 100gb for a single scene?
Sony needs to get price down to $400. Just eat the costs and get it back from services. You cannot allow price parity between these consoles.
I get that PS5 can stream in even more but really, when would you ever need more than 100gb for a single scene?
Sony needs to get price down to $400. Just eat the costs and get it back from services. You cannot allow price parity between these consoles.
Elenchus
Banned
MS must have a time machine then. They briefed everyone on velocity architecture prior to Cerny’s deep dive so the idea they made it up to respond to the deep dive doesnt make much sense.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
news.xbox.com
Thirty7ven
Banned
MS must have a time machine then. They briefed everyone on velocity architecture prior to Cerny’s deep dive so the idea they made it up to respond to the deep dive doesnt make much sense.
Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire
[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...
You are under the impression that these guys only know what the other is doing on the day? Forum posters have know about the focus on SSD for months now.
How come they don’t have a fancy name for their GPU,CPU, RAM, etc
They named it “Velocity” just because? Sorry I just can’t be this naive, don’t let me stop you though.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Why compare SSD to GDDR6?
Data is easily managed with the use of the SSD. Devs can simply design better worlds by having instant access to data. The SSD is going to play a huge role next generation.
MilkyJoe
Member
It's not going to make any difference between the consoles, dingleberry
Aceofspades
Banned
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Variations on LOL include LOLZ, LML, and LULZ. Other acronyms that denote laughter include ROFL ("rolling on the floor laughing") and ROFLMAO ("rolling on floor, laughing my a** off). LOL is a staple of online conversation culture.
LOL and its many similar acronyms are often spelled in uppercase letters, but lowercase spelling is perfectly acceptable and means the same thing."
Elenchus
Banned
Forum posters knew both next gen consoles would feature SSDs. Not sure anyone knew more than that.
DF and now Gaming Bolt have both verified that the tech exists and should work as advertised.
Regardless of the name, you can’t throw together a decompression and asset streaming system in a day or so.
Obviously was part of the console design but if you have evidence to the contrary I’d love to see it.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Sony has baked all sorts of custom hardware and tech into the PS5. MS, in typical American fashion, is relying on brute force with no tech built in for speed. The PS5 SSD will result in worlds and experiences not otherwise possible while XSX will play HD versions of current gen games and will take a mind numbing 7 seconds to load next gen games.
Again, according to SSD threads here anyway
DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Well, this is coming from someone who just compared SSD to GDDR6 speeds.
LED Guy?
Banned
Look, guys, the PS5's SSD configuration (12 ports) is way faster than Xbox Series X's poor 3 ports, there's no 2 ways around it, it's a massive difference, no matter how much you say "architecture differences, VELOCITY" and all that crap, the PS5 will have Its own efficiencies and architectural nuances that are even better than XSX in those regards, even developers are saying the same thing, that the PS5 is superior to XSX in many ways.
Just like XSX GPU is superior to the PS5, by a slight advantage.
We should all be happy that this generation will have the smallest differences ever between consoles, except the SSD, there will be a big difference and will show up in Sony's exclusive games.
Just like XSX GPU is superior to the PS5, by a slight advantage.
We should all be happy that this generation will have the smallest differences ever between consoles, except the SSD, there will be a big difference and will show up in Sony's exclusive games.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
This is a lie. That is the point a good portion of posters have been trying to argue, generally by misinterpreting how SSDs and NAND actually works. It hasn't been so much some people downplaying SSDS, so much as anyone attempting to be a realist with regard to the SSDs is automatically viewed by some others as downplaying the SSDs.
Let's face it; after the Road to PS5 presentation (and I don't like to do this but a spade's a spade) a big flock of Sony fans on the forums who were obsessed to high hell over Teraflops (even when multiple posters, myself included, were trying to tell them Teraflops didn't mean everything), silently conceded that front. They began downplaying the Teraflop difference between the two systems (not in terms of percentages per-se, but in what the extra TF advantage on XSX can actually be utilized for) while hyping up the SSD and audio since Sony focused on those in particular with their presentation and gave specs that, on paper, seemed more impressive than MS's in those areas. It allowed those people to shift the narrative to the SSD, audio, I/O etc. while similarly creating a fake narrative of XSX "brute forcing" a solution and PS5 was the system pushing elegant optimizations, conveniently cutting out any focus on MS's deliberate optimizations and customizations with the XSX to further push this fake narrative.
All the while, many of these same people continue to over-inflate the SSDs in terms of being a game-changing technology or paradigm shift, and completely downplay the GPGPU performance edge XSX has over PS5 (or pretend it doesn't exist at all and that the extra GPU throughput of XSX will only go to resolution, ignoring the ML texture upscaling in the GPU built to free up heavy expenditure of GPU resources on processing raw pixels through to the display, freeing up processing power for other tasks). When you try telling them that NAND has limits inherent to the technology that will prevent granularity of asset data for streaming in a way similar to volatile RAM, somehow that gets lumped into "downplaying the PS5 SSD", even though this affects both systems. Same if you bring up questions regarding the random write speeds, latency figures, page and block sizes, etc.
We are seemingly allowed to speculate on Sony using tech from other departments of their company as R&D foundations for potential PS5 features, but doing the same with MS regarding XSX is considered being a fanboy, wishful thinking, or foolish...even though they have already admitted to members of the Surface team working on the Xbox team. All the same, some strongly pro-Sony people who obsess over customizations on PS5 do not provide any leeway to entertain similar customizations conceptually being present on XSX, but expect strong pro-Microsoft people to bend the knee and do so when it comes to XSX features potentially being present on PS5. And all of this leads to disingenuous, lopsided, biased takes and discussions in next-gen speculation because there are a group of people who put out a false image of wanting the best for both systems but secretly only want their preferred platform to "win", even if that means generating fake narratives.
Yes there are some Xbox people who do this but from what I've noticed it is not to the same degree as the Sony fans engaging in similar tactics on the forum (as just one example). Now that might be going a bit beyond your point here but it needs to be stressed that claiming "When people tried to explain how SSDs will work, people just started saying, "It's not going to close the power gap in consoles" when that wasn't the point people on here were trying to make." is in fact demostrably false when keeping in mind the long-term discussion that's been prevalent for months by now on these systems.
There absolutely have been people trying to imply this very thing, maybe not directly and often layered in subtext, but it's been an idea fostered for a good bit by now. Again, predicated on things like "secret sauce" like the way this article words it, which is irresponsible considering so many important aspects of the systems are not even divulged yet. But that's all I want to say on that and thought what you mentioned was a good time to segway into it. Hopefully people get what I'm saying here.
ZywyPL
Banned
I'm curios what the "real" numbers for those SSDs are, a.k.a. random read speeds... Nevertheless I expect that there won't be any forced/prolonged cut-scenes, scripts, elevators, staircases etc. anymore thanks to faster data streaming, many call it a game-changer, a new paradigm in design, whatever drives their boat, but it will a nice change indeed.
DonF
Member
no need to wait, just look at the ps4 pro vs xbox one x games now, its going to be the same.
Jimmyisback
Banned
What will be the actual real world performance advantage that PS5 ssd will offer compared to series X. Is it just 1 second loading times faster? NVMEs are 7 times faster than regular ssd but loading times are just one second faster.
With the series X its very easy to explain. The graphics fidelity will be the best with series X having the best resolution, graphical effects and ray tracing. Can someone explain this in real world performance what PS5 ssd will offer.
With the series X its very easy to explain. The graphics fidelity will be the best with series X having the best resolution, graphical effects and ray tracing. Can someone explain this in real world performance what PS5 ssd will offer.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
My gripe is this:
Yes, the PS5 SSD is much much faster, but in practice how much useful will it be? The analogy I always like is two cars are racing, one car at 200 mph and the other at 100 mph. It’s a huge difference, but both cars only need to travel 25 feet. We are talking about a blink of an eye, basically.
MilkyJoe
Member
because after the hdd has loaded the game into ram, it's advantage ends. All this SSD, SSD, SSD shit, have you been living under a rock?
Thirty7ven
Banned
Why don't you go ahead and get us a video that shows how the difference between PS5 and X1X is going to be then?
pasterpl
Member
Sony has baked all sorts of custom hardware and tech into the PS5. MS, in typical American fashion, is relying on brute force with no tech built in for speed. The PS5 SSD will result in worlds and experiences not otherwise possible while XSX will play HD versions of current gen games and will take a mind numbing 7 seconds to load next gen games.
Again, according to SSD threads here anyway
examples please