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[TheKeyPit]

No, because we saw her die. Jack saw the bullet enter her head. .

I saw Hatch die, too, with a knife entering his scull.

Edit: @Alandrus Sun

That's what I think, too. No matter what they'll try to change, nothing changes.

 

[Trup1aya]

But, that is what I'm getting at the game suggests that it simply is not possible to alter history. We at the end of the game are left with this nagging question of whether we actually did change anything or simply followed the natural progression of events as they were always meant to happen. We just don't know at the moment.

When I say that Paul cannot go back and kill his past self I'm not simply talking about it failing one time, I'm saying that no matter what he tries it will never work. If you've watched that Hulu show 11.22.63 then it would be like the "past fighting back," as in that show. The gun will jam or misfire, a car will jump right out in from of him preventing him from getting to his past self, a tree will suddenly fall down, a phone line will be cut, etc. No matter what he tries any attempt to alter the past will be thwarted and events will continue as they always have.

Now, again we do not know for sure if that is the case but at the moment we don't have any concrete information that suggest altering the past is possible.

What I'm saying is no one in the game every tried to do anything different. They either work off the idea that doing something you know is different is bad (Will), or the think they are doing something different, but end up doing the exact same thing their future self always did (Beth, Serene). Everytime Jack suggests actually doing different; something that he knows will alter the timeline, he his told not to. In act 5 Will tells him no because of the unknown consequence of breaking the loop. Beth tells him no because her failure to do so has convinced her it's impossible (even though her approach was incorrect. She didn't have enough knowledge of her future self's actions to change her path, so when she tried to change things, she just repeats history. It's not that the past was fighting back. It's that she was unknowingly doing the exact same things her future self always did. Seren rejects the idea the because his existence in the presence depends on his existence in the future and past. He, like Beth went into the past without knowledge of how his future self influenced his past, so he too repeated his own actions anytime he tried to change things.

I firmly believe the that any a sequel to this game will explore the idea of actually altering history; causing a previous occurance not to occur. If the closing interview doesn't foreshadow that, then foreshadowing doesn't exist. I think Jack will try to somehow influence Beth during the stutter in 2016, which will change the implications of her trip back in time. Awesomeness will ensue.

I saw Hatch die, too, with a knife entering his scull.

Edit: @Alandrus Sun

That's what I think, too. No matter what they'll try to change, nothing changes.

Hatch was is a shifter, he has multiple forms.

I think that no one knew enough about the future or past to actually make a change. Jack posses the knowledge now.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Hatch was is a shifter, he has multiple forms.

Beth was exposed to the CFR in 2010. We don't know what that did or if it did anything at all.

Edit: If Jack could save Beth, I think that it will go down the Fringe-route a la multi-verse theory.

 

[Trup1aya]

Beth was exposed to the CFR in 2010. We don't know what that did or if it did anything at all.

It seems to me that chronon's disease is aquired over time, and the end result is one becomes a shifter. There's no reason to believe the Beth's exposure to the CFR made her instantly become a shifter, while Jack and Paul still have yet to reach that point.

She's dead. Unless, Jack breaks the loop, which was a concept that was pretty explicitly foreshadowed at the end of the game.

Another interesting thing I noticed during a replay of Act 3 is Will's insistence that they can't or shouldn't try to alter the time loop. This is the reason why he insists on traveling to The future that Jack came from to activate the CFR. He say's

"the fracture isn't fixed where you came from, so fixing it here will always fail"

The idea being that if they fix the fracture in the "present" then future Jack never would have come back in time to fix the "present". it's a paradox.

He then goes onto say

what you have done is set In motion a chain of events that cannot be broken

Then, in the same breath he says

and if it could be broken, it could jeopardize the entire world

It's a slight, brief but IMO important wavering on his stance of altering the past. I think this idea will go on to become a major plot point if we get a sequel.

Interestingly, Will subsequently suggests that while the past is set, the future isn't, so he and Jack travel to the latest point in Jack's timeline. He's trying to make sure that whatever He and Jack do will be influencing the future without altering the past. However, Paul Serene and Beth had already seen points and time beyond 2016. Will knows this because Future Beth told him. He's also a supplier of the "what you saw in the future is in your past, thus can't be changed" ideology. So, if the CFR actually worked as intended, it would mean that the Joyce's did break this "unbreakable" chain of events. In failing to travel to the end of the known timeline to activate the CFR, Will is attempting to defying his own logic. By Will's logic, His plan CAN'T work, because Beth and Serene have already seen the end of time.

To use his on theory against him:

"the fracture isn't fixed where Beth came from, so fixing it here will always fail"

Either 1) Will had an honest lapse in logic 2) Will is unsure/incorrect about the chains "unbreakability", or 3) Will was trying to preserve the existance of Jack's time loop. or 4) Will didn't realize he was simply spinning the hamster wheel until after using the CFR. I think the conversation I quoted as well as what we saw during the end of Jack's interview, supports the idea of some combo of 2,3 explored in a sequel.

Spoiler

please let their be a sequel

4 is the exact same trap Beth and Serene fell into everytime they tried to make a difference, they did EXACTLY what had already been done by future versions of themselves.

I think after firing the CFR, Will realizes that he's done nothing different and will start to open up to the idea of actually changing things to avoid the impending end of time. And Jack has been open to the idea all along. But they'll need to use a different method. they need to explore the "butterfly/ripple effect' method of influencing folks in the past into doing/ not doing something that had already been established.

An example would be if Future Jack altered Beth's journal before she goes back in time.

 

[BreakyBoy]

By Will's logic, His plan CAN'T work, because Beth and Serene have already seen the end of time.

Actually, it can work within the context of Will's "the past is immutable" theory: Will's countermeasure worked because it always worked. What Beth and Paul saw at the End of Time is still to come.

In fact, despite what Dr. Amaral thought about Paul being mistaken about the timing of the coming End of Time, they were both right: the fracture was bringing about that End sooner than Paul's 2021 prediction, but thanks to the countermeasure, the fracture is, at least temporarily, fixed. This means that the End of Time at 2021 that Beth & Paul experienced may still be yet to come.

In fact, Will himself seems to have a moment of doubt right after the countermeasure is deployed. I wish I had a script or something in front of me, but in response to something like "we did it!" he seems to stop just short of saying "or did we?" Again, I don't remember the script, and maybe I just imagined it, but that was certainly the vibe I got.

Otherwise, I think you're mostly correct there. And I think Remedy has done a good job of establishing "known" boundaries in the universe while still leaving open questions that they can use to explore a potential sequel.

As others have noted, the established nature of Shifters existing in a state between multiverses, and that Paul (and later Jack) can see divergent futures at Junction Points (despite the fact that all the Junction Points we saw were prior to the established future of 2021 = End of Time) belies the fact that "past", "present" and "future" are all malleable, heavily contextual concepts.

Heck, it could all be true. There could be multiverses that all split off based on every single being's choices (the "infinite" as Hatch called it), but once a decision is set, that timeline is locked, and the rules about not being able to change the past apply. Just only to that specific timeline/universe.

Honestly, my guess is that the writers left the door open for any possibility on purpose. It's a much richer setup for an ongoing story. They don't have to have anything planned out beyond what they've done here. They have plenty of good options.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Regarding the vagrant: I'm listening to the audio diaries right now. Paul says that he traveled to the first point in time he could travel to(1999). He then later saw a vagrant and remarked that he's familiar to him and that he'll die weeks from now(in 1999).

Actually, it can work within the context of Will's "the past is immutable" theory: Will's countermeasure worked because it always worked. What Beth and Paul saw at the End of Time is still to come.

Yep, they changed nothing. The real End of Time(2021) was never triggered by any events in 2016 or before.

 

[BreakyBoy]

There's no reason to believe the Beth's exposure to the CFR made her instantly become a shifter, while Jack and Paul still have yet to reach that point.

I do wonder about Paul. I've played through both endings now, and in both Paul "dies" when Jack punches his head into the glass. But then Will and Paul use the countermeasure, and in the midst of all those Chronons flying around, Paul comes back to life and flings himself at the countermeasure explosion. Afterwards, Will looks around for Paul, and Jack says "he's dead or whatever", indicating that Will didn't just miss Paul's dead body, Paul is gone. I'm guessing Paul has shifted and he'll potentially be back, at least as a crazed Shifter, in the future.

Yep, they changed nothing. The real End of Time(2021) was never triggered by any events in 2016 or before.

Also, Jack does have visions as Will is talking after the countermeasure explosion. It's a split second, but it sure seemed like he saw himself going to the End of Time.

 

[BreakyBoy]

Bah, double post. Meant to edit the last one.

 

[darkinstinct]

I think everybody that uses a time machine eventually becomes a shifter because their atomic structure is not in sync anymore with the time they are from (though that leaves a possible cure if somebody enters his world back exactly at the same time he would be counting every second he spent in a different time). In 2021 the End of Time will be there. The events leading to that can be explored in Quantum Break 2 and 3 - but that still doesn't mean that it won't be fixed by 2022. Even if Hatch manages to destroy all time machines in 2021 Jack could still try to find a natural time machine (one of those turned Hatch according to his note) and use that to go to after 2021 to fix things there.

 

[Trup1aya]

Actually, it can work within the context of Will's "the past is immutable" theory: Will's countermeasure worked because it always worked. What Beth and Paul saw at the End of Time is still to come.

In fact, despite what Dr. Amaral thought about Paul being mistaken about the timing of the coming End of Time, they were both right: the fracture was bringing about that End sooner than Paul's 2021 prediction, but thanks to the countermeasure, the fracture is, at least temporarily, fixed. This means that the End of Time at 2021 that Beth & Paul experienced may still be yet to come.

In fact, Will himself seems to have a moment of doubt right after the countermeasure is deployed. I wish I had a script or something in front of me, but in response to something like "we did it!" he seems to stop just short of saying "or did we?" Again, I don't remember the script, and maybe I just imagined it, but that was certainly the vibe I got.

Otherwise, I think you're mostly correct there. And I think Remedy has done a good job of establishing "known" boundaries in the universe while still leaving open questions that they can use to explore a potential sequel.

As others have noted, the established nature of Shifters existing in a state between multiverses, and that Paul (and later Jack) can see divergent futures at Junction Points (despite the fact that all the Junction Points we saw were prior to the established future of 2021 = End of Time) belies the fact that "past", "present" and "future" are all malleable, heavily contextual concepts.

Heck, it could all be true. There could be multiverses that all split off based on every single being's choices (the "infinite" as Hatch called it), but once a decision is set, that timeline is locked, and the rules about not being able to change the past apply. Just only to that specific timeline/universe.

Honestly, my guess is that the writers left the door open for any possibility on purpose. It's a much richer setup for an ongoing story. They don't have to have anything planned out beyond what they've done here. They have plenty of good options.

Right, Will's countermeasure worked because it always work. I'm not saying that Will successfully defied his logic, I'm saying his actions were unknowingly an attempt to defy that logic. So he was wrong when he suggested that he and Jack would be influencing the future by traveling to the time Jack came from and using the CFR. He thought he was making an influencial CHOICE, but in reality, he was doing exactly what had been done before.

I agree that he seemed to realize this after the CFR fired.

I think

Spoiler

hope

we'll see exploration of the concept of using knowledge of timeline specifics to actually alter the course of history... This is a luxury no one in this game has yet been afforded, because they always went back in time without knowing exactly what future versions of themselves had already done...so they ineveitably repeated the exact steps.

It's Especially interesting now that Jack knows it's possible to travel through time without a time machine. What would happen if he travelled to a place and point time were he knows for a FACT that no version of him previously existed?...A place like Will's workshop - just before Beth was shot.

Uhh... It makes me sick to see reviewers negatively critique this games story. It's air tight from where i sit.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Uhh... It makes me sick to see reviewers negatively critique this games story. It's air tight from where i sit.

It's written perfectly.

 

[Alandrus Sun]

Uhh... It makes me sick to see reviewers negatively critique this games story. It's air tight from where i sit.

Eh, we've already found one "minor" plot hole in the story regarding Paul and his recounting of the story of the vagrant to Jack. The earliest Paul could have traveled back in time to was 1999 thus he couldn't have traveled back to when they were kids and encountered that vagrant. Also, most reviewers negatively critique the writings not so much the actual plot which does have some problems.

As for a sequel, I do hope we get to explore the possibility of altering the past since it's simply a theory at this point. With regards to Will, if you read enough of his diaries then you understand that he absolutely believes that the past cannot be altered but accepts his fate as a "puppet" and will continue to try to do what he knows cannot be changed. I found that revelation a fascinating insight into his character since he willingly accepts that he's merely a hamster in a wheel but feels powerless to actually stop chasing the cheese, so to speak. That's why he has that moment of self-doubt at the end, he knows that his countermeasure shouldn't work since both Paul and Beth saw the End of Time.

 

[Trup1aya]

Eh, we've already found one "minor" plot hole in the story regarding Paul and his recounting of the story of the vagrant to Jack. The earliest Paul could have traveled back in time to was 1999 thus he couldn't have traveled back to when they were kids and encountered that vagrant. Also, most reviewers negatively critique the writings not so much the actual plot which does have some problems.

As for a sequel, I do hope we get to explore the possibility of altering the past since it's simply a theory at this point. With regards to Will, if you read enough of his diaries then you understand that he absolutely believes that the past cannot be altered but accepts his fate as a "puppet" and will continue to try to do what he knows cannot be changed. I found that revelation a fascinating insight into his character since he willingly accepts that he's merely a hamster in a wheel but feels powerless to actually stop chasing the cheese, so to speak. That's why he has that moment of self-doubt at the end, he knows that his countermeasure shouldn't work since both Paul and Beth saw the End of Time.

Um...How old would current Jack and Paul in 1999? In act 2, of you choose PR, the protestor girl says that Paul is in his 30s, but she found records that suggest he also founded the company on 1999. She then says something along the lines of "that would make him 14 when he founded monarch. Either he's the Doogie Howser of tech, or they are hiding something. "

Do you have proof that current Jack aren't 30-31 years old? Otherwise it's not a plot hole. The vagrant death happened sometime shortly after will turned on the time machine.

Also, no I'm specifically talking about reviews that take issue with the plot.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Eh, we've already found one "minor" plot hole in the story regarding Paul and his recounting of the story of the vagrant to Jack. The earliest Paul could have traveled back in time to was 1999 thus he couldn't have traveled back to when they were kids and encountered that vagrant. Also, most reviewers negatively critique the writings not so much the actual plot which does have some problems.

As for a sequel, I do hope we get to explore the possibility of altering the past since it's simply a theory at this point. With regards to Will, if you read enough of his diaries then you understand that he absolutely believes that the past cannot be altered but accepts his fate as a "puppet" and will continue to try to do what he knows cannot be changed. I found that revelation a fascinating insight into his character since he willingly accepts that he's merely a hamster in a wheel but feels powerless to actually stop chasing the cheese, so to speak. That's why he has that moment of self-doubt at the end, he knows that his countermeasure shouldn't work since both Paul and Beth saw the End of Time.

Just 5 posts above yours:

Regarding the vagrant: I'm listening to the audio diaries right now. Paul says that he traveled to the first point in time he could travel to(1999). He then later saw a vagrant and remarked that he's familiar to him and that he'll die weeks from now(in 1999).

 

[ryan299]

Wait it was Hatch wrecking the Monarch HQ at the end? I thought it was Dr. Kim and was upset we didn't get a battle with him.

 

[Trup1aya]

Paul Seren goes into the room where Jack Joyce is tied up and tries to explain that the past can't be changed.

HE tells Jack to remember that time when they were young and saw a homeless ina rooftop or soemthing like that, willing to jump, he told jack that he tried to stop it and everytime they failed or whatever.

How can this be, it is specifically stated repeatedly by Will Joyce that you cannot go back to a point in time in which the Time Machine was not activated, which means the absolute furthest to the past You can travel is to the 28th of February 1999.

This is not a plot hole. Paul was 30 when he and Jack caused the fracture. He went back 17years to 1999... He's past self would have been 14 at this time. As you mention later, when he recounts the story to Jack, he estimates that they were between 12 and 14 years old. So apparently, the vagrant incident must have happened shortly after Future Paul emerged from Will's 1999 time machine.

Also, there is a note from Will in the pool, the first time you go there that explains that if one goes into the time machine, you will emerge in the same time machine where ever it may be in the future/past.

How come Jack emerges in the time machine at the Pool on the 4th of July of 2010... the core isn't there... I don't really get it.

Where is the issue? Why do you suggest that the core isn't at the Pool time machine in 2010? Beth had Will move the time machine to the pool in 1999, and Paul/Monarch never found the site until 2016. What makes you say the core wasn't there? The machine was untouched for 11years (until future Jack came out of it in 2010) and it wasn't used again until 2016 (when Future Jack and current will went back to the future) and again when current Jack went used it to go to 2010). No one touched the core.

Nope, he specifically mentions they were 12-14 years old. So Impossible.

Right, This actually disproves your idea of a plot hole. Paul and Jack would be 14 years old in 1999. So saving the vagrant incident would have happened Shortly after Paul's arrival in the past.

I think there might be another plot hole here.

So, remember how they always tell you that what has already happened has to happen for Jack or Beth or whoever to end up where they are right?

For example, Jack can't take Beth in the past because if he does then she won't drive the van and rescue him right?

So, the fracture is closed in 2016, which means the end of time will never happen, which means Beth and Paul never would have gone there which basically throws out the window the entire storyline in the final act.

You get what I mean?

Nah, Paul and Beth traveled to the future and saw that the end of time happened in 2021. Just because they closed the fracture in 2016 doesn't mean that the averted 2021's apocalypse... just means that the 2016 fracture was never the event that lead to the end of time

Regarding the vagrant: I'm listening to the audio diaries right now. Paul says that he traveled to the first point in time he could travel to(1999). He then later saw a vagrant and remarked that he's familiar to him and that he'll die weeks from now(in 1999).
Yep, they changed nothing. The real End of Time(2021) was never triggered by any events in 2016 or before.

Exactly

 

[blakep267]

The first junction was a pretty tough decision in retrospect since I enjoyed both Any and Nick as side characters.

I was suprised at how little William Joyce was in it. Gotta say Lance Reddick stole the show for me followed by the guy who played Liam. Beth was okay but her voice got a little whiny/nasally at times

 

[TheKeyPit]

Yeah, just keep ignoring my post about the vagrant that is based on proof by listening to a diary of Paul Serene. That settles the matter 100%.

 

[TheKeyPit]

I started to read the book and there is an explanation why Paul landed in the End of Time. The machine showed an Error for the destination time. He then got to a point where time got redundant, End of Time. I didn't get that one while playing.

 

[StylesClash]

What does the part after the ending credits mean? I missed something.

 

[Bornstellar]

Nick makes the hardline approach worth it.

 

[Trup1aya]

Man, it's such a tragedy watching these characters progress through the timeline. Every one of them knows the principle "you can't change the past" but they continuously convince themselves that they can change the future... Only to realize too late, that the future is part of the past.

Paul's initial Jump two minutes into the future is a tragic foreshadowing of the futility of his efforts. It highlights just how quickly, everyone will lose sight of there own principles.

Upon seeing Past Paul leave the time machine, current Paul excitedly speculates about the potential to use this tech to change the world. He specifically meantions warning people about disasters.Future Paul, only, two minutes wiser, shares the enthusiasm.

Then, current Paul behind his trip two minutes into the future. Jack asks future Paul what would happen if current Paul didn't go through the time machine. Future Paul response is that since he's here, it means current Paul's trip already happened... The loop has HAS to be completed in order for the present to exist.

Firmly understanding this, he should have known that his goal of preventing disasters unattainable

What does the part after the ending credits mean? I missed something.

It means that Hatch is a shifter, and he's still intent on bringing about the end of time.

Also, Jack has assumed the same powers Serene had, he gets glimpses of the impact of his decisions. He'll have to decide to either work with or against Hatch.

 

[inoperativ]

So I finished this yesterday and while I enjoyed it quite a bit, I ended up a little frustrated.

There seems to be some pretty big inconsistencies, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll list the ones I remember from the top of my head.

So, when Jack goes to MonarchMansion to kidnap Dr. Amaral, which I think woudl be endign of act 2, beginning of act 3? You have a junction there, and have to choose between Personal and Professional, right?

I chose Personal, and in the next show episode, there is a scene in which Paul Seren goes into the room where Jack Joyce is tied up and tries to explain that the past can't be changed.

HE tells Jack to remember that time when they were young and saw a homeless ina rooftop or soemthing like that, willing to jump, he told jack that he tried to stop it and everytime they failed or whatever.

How can this be, it is specifically stated repeatedly by Will Joyce that you cannot go back to a point in time in which the Time Machine was not activated, which means the absolute furthest to the past You can travel is to the 28th of February 1999.


Also, there is a note from Will in the pool, the first time you go there that explains that if one goes into the time machine, you will emerge in the same time machine where ever it may be in the future/past.

How come Jack emerges in the time machine at the Pool on the 4th of July of 2010... the core isn't there... I don't really get it.

These are two things that bug me, specially the first one.

EDIT: Oh and also all the Shifter teasing. In the end you never even fight a single one. Monarch emails and beth's notes about them are absoltuely terrifying, and we never EVER fight any single one of them You just see one in a corridor before paul's office at monarch's HQ.

It seems to me that the game would need a few more months n development to bring everything together properly.

I don't think we know Jack's birthday exactly but he was in his "early teens" when his parents died in '99, so the first one is definitely consistent. There's an age gap between Will and Jack (hence why Will was made his legal guardian).

 

[pa22word]

So I beat it a few days ago, and tell me if I'm wrong but it seems to me like the games plot only takes place in two timelines: October 8th, 2016 and 2021. Because the moment serene gets to the end of time doesn't that make that moment in time the present, and all events prior set in stone? Meaning that serene was right, just that his timing was wrong. If viewed from this light, doesn't this make jack's entire character arc a massive red herring in that he already stopped zero state in 2016 only for it to happen by Serene's original projection sometime later, presumably caused by hatch and/or shifter serene?

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Yeah, there's no reason to believe the End of Time isn't coming.

 

[Trup1aya]

So I beat it a few days ago, and tell me if I'm wrong but it seems to me like the games plot only takes place in two timelines: October 8th, 2016 and 2021. Because the moment serene gets to the end of time doesn't that make that moment in time the present, and all events prior set in stone? Meaning that serene was right, just that his timing was wrong. If viewed from this light, doesn't this make jack's entire character arc a massive red herring in that he already stopped zero state in 2016 only for it to happen by Serene's original projection sometime later, presumably caused by hatch and/or shifter serene?

Not exactly.

the games plot takes place in a single time loop, not two distinct time lines. Paul's arrival in 2021 marks the latest date in the loop, and yes all events prior are set in stone.

Serene was right, in that the end will come. But he was wrong to assume that there was ever a chance his lifeboat protocol would ever launch. it was already predetermined that he would fall at the hands of Jack. Since Jack successfully closed the fracture in 2016, we know that what Paul saw in 2021 was not the result of the 2016 incident.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Now that I think of it: Paul knows he landed in 2021, because he probably has seen some calendars, but we don't know how far he got into the End of Time. Time doesn't matter then when it stopped, but he either landed right at the beginning of the End of Time(which would make more sense, because the machine would have send him right to the spot in the future where time stopped, because when there is no time, there is no way to tell where to travel to further) or a couple of days/weeks/months/years.

Edit: Yep, he landed right at the start of the End of Time.

 

[Trup1aya]

Now that I think of it: Paul knows he landed in 2021, because he probably has seen some calendars, but we don't know how far he got into the End of Time. Time doesn't matter then when it stopped, but he either landed right at the beginning of the End of Time(which would make more sense, because the machine would have send him right to the spot in the future where time stopped, because when there is no time, there is no way to tell where to travel to further) or a couple of days/weeks/months/years.

Edit: Yep, he landed right at the start of the End of Time.

Yeah, this makes sense. No matter how much 'percieved time' has passed, the End of Time would be locked at a single instant.

So for example, Paul could have been at the end of time for a percieved day/week/year before Beth got there, but technically their arrival would be simultaneous.

 

[Messofanego]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5dVK58ySk

Martin Hatch still creeps me the fuck out that he appears at the very beginning of the game, vanishes much like the Lady In Black in Alan Wake, and after finishing the game finding out he's a Shifter, throws up more questions. What is his plan at the university? How can he control himself if he's been a Shifter for so long (according to the Untitled note)? To influence events, but the way how he released Dr Kim, does he really want to create order like the ending cutscene implies or just let the End of Time happen?

Also, it wouldn't be a Sam Lake game without a name pun. If there wasn't that last line, I'd be confused who wrote this.

The Untitled Note shows that he encountered the Africa time machine, been through the End of Time, and can see different timelines. So, I think he wants the chaos.

 

[Fuchsdh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5dVK58ySk

Martin Hatch still creeps me the fuck out that he appears at the very beginning of the game, vanishes much like the Lady In Black in Alan Wake, and after finishing the game finding out he's a Shifter, throws up more questions. What is his plan at the university? How can he control himself if he's been a Shifter for so long (according to the Untitled note)? To influence events, but the way how he released Dr Kim, does he really want to create order like the ending cutscene implies or just let the End of Time happen?

Also, it wouldn't be a Sam Lake game without a name pun. If there wasn't that last line, I'd be confused who wrote this.

The Untitled Note shows that he encountered the Africa time machine, been through the End of Time, and can see different timelines. So, I think he wants the chaos.

My presumption reading his note and his general demeanor is that his motive is chaos, in the sense that the shifters will have the run of the place in the end of time. Honestly that's not a particularly interesting motive to me, but the whole question of where he appeared and how he's stayed apparently corporeal is more interesting to me. He only shows up in 2001 and is apparently a ghost before then, so that presumably means he's from the future.

 

[KingV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5dVK58ySk

Martin Hatch still creeps me the fuck out that he appears at the very beginning of the game, vanishes much like the Lady In Black in Alan Wake, and after finishing the game finding out he's a Shifter, throws up more questions. What is his plan at the university? How can he control himself if he's been a Shifter for so long (according to the Untitled note)? To influence events, but the way how he released Dr Kim, does he really want to create order like the ending cutscene implies or just let the End of Time happen?

Also, it wouldn't be a Sam Lake game without a name pun. If there wasn't that last line, I'd be confused who wrote this.

The Untitled Note shows that he encountered the Africa time machine, been through the End of Time, and can see different timelines. So, I think he wants the chaos.

I'm pretty sure one of the notes (maybe even that one) specifically talks about Hatchs motivation to end time. He says something about the peace/calm he felt at the end of time and how that was what led him to being able to gain control of his situation.

I suspect that Hatch has some realization that you can adjust past and future events because he exists in multiple times. I'm guessing that research on quantum entanglement is alluding to it being possible, but suggesting it's difficult to untangle how it works.

The biggest plot hole to me (maybe the only one) is at the very end. Why would Jack consider working with Hatch at all? There's multiple notes that you read in the game that 1) make it clear what he is (I.e. A shifter) and 2) make it clear that he has some ulterior motive.

Jack knows he faked the attack, and ordered the death of several people, tried to sabotage parts of the lifeboat protocol, killed Dr. Kim, and hatched a plan to kill Paul through denying him treatments. he may even know that he wants to end time(but That part might have been from the show, which isn't stuff Jack is privy to).

 

[Zedox]

I think I have to go back but how did they "catch" Dr. Kim when he became a shifter? He got sick like Paul but then he had those powers. Wait...just had a thought, it was an experiment wasn't it? I forgot how it went down. But i'm confused as to how they made a "stutter" cage in order for Dr. Kim to even be present in a non-stutter state. If I recall, they can make certain places stutter proof but I didn't know they could make a place stutter-able. Interesting.

Someone help me out here or I gotta go back and look at the stuff.

 

[TheKeyPit]

The biggest plot hole to me (maybe the only one) is at the very end. Why would Jack consider working with Hatch at all? There's multiple notes that you read in the game that 1) make it clear what he is (I.e. A shifter) and 2) make it clear that he has some ulterior motive.

I asked the same question here and some replied that Jack is probably going to need treatments just like Paul, and Hatch could give these to him.

I think I have to go back but how did they "catch" Dr. Kim when he became a shifter? He got sick like Paul but then he had those powers. Wait...just had a thought, it was an experiment wasn't it? I forgot how it went down. But i'm confused as to how they made a "stutter" cage in order for Dr. Kim to even be present in a non-stutter state. If I recall, they can make certain places stutter proof but I didn't know they could make a place stutter-able. Interesting.

Someone help me out here or I gotta go back and look at the stuff.

I can tell you how Dr. Kim got there according to the book.

 

[KingV]

Lastly, and a bit tongue in cheek... How can Jack (or any character) see During a stutter?

There is a note that says radios don't work in a stutter because the electromagnetic waves don't travel.

So shouldn't the same apply to visible light?

 

[Messofanego]

I'm pretty sure one of the notes (maybe even that one) specifically talks about Hatchs motivation to end time. He says something about the peace/calm he felt at the end of time and how that was what led him to being able to gain control of his situation.

I suspect that Hatch has some realization that you can adjust past and future events because he exists in multiple times. I'm guessing that research on quantum entanglement is alluding to it being possible, but suggesting it's difficult to untangle how it works.

The biggest plot hole to me (maybe the only one) is at the very end. Why would Jack consider working with Hatch at all? There's multiple notes that you read in the game that 1) make it clear what he is (I.e. A shifter) and 2) make it clear that he has some ulterior motive.

Jack knows he faked the attack, and ordered the death of several people, tried to sabotage parts of the lifeboat protocol, killed Dr. Kim, and hatched a plan to kill Paul through denying him treatments. he may even know that he wants to end time(but That part might have been from the show, which isn't stuff Jack is privy to).

Yeah, could be to create a new world after the End of Time or something.

 

[TheKeyPit]

Lastly, and a bit tongue in cheek... How can Jack (or any character) see During a stutter?

There is a note that says radios don't work in a stutter because the electromagnetic waves don't travel.

So shouldn't the same apply to visible light?

Perhaps something like, when time stops, light stops at its current position and when Jack walks through the world this light enters his eyes enabling him to see. I don't know

 

[Trup1aya]

Lastly, and a bit tongue in cheek... How can Jack (or any character) see During a stutter?

There is a note that says radios don't work in a stutter because the electromagnetic waves don't travel.

So shouldn't the same apply to visible light?

Lol this is THE logic hole. you just gotta tell yourself that Jack's mind can percieve an objects location in the absence of light, thanks to his time powers.

I'm pretty sure one of the notes (maybe even that one) specifically talks about Hatchs motivation to end time. He says something about the peace/calm he felt at the end of time and how that was what led him to being able to gain control of his situation.

I suspect that Hatch has some realization that you can adjust past and future events because he exists in multiple times. I'm guessing that research on quantum entanglement is alluding to it being possible, but suggesting it's difficult to untangle how it works.

The biggest plot hole to me (maybe the only one) is at the very end. Why would Jack consider working with Hatch at all? There's multiple notes that you read in the game that 1) make it clear what he is (I.e. A shifter) and 2) make it clear that he has some ulterior motive.

Jack knows he faked the attack, and ordered the death of several people, tried to sabotage parts of the lifeboat protocol, killed Dr. Kim, and hatched a plan to kill Paul through denying him treatments. he may even know that he wants to end time(but That part might have been from the show, which isn't stuff Jack is privy to).

I think Jack is open to using Hatch for his own gain. He does have a disease that monarch apparently knows how to control. He also know that the end of time is coming... Who better to glean insight from than a fellow shifter?

 

[Catdaddy]

What was the deal with Martin Hatch and the eyedrops?

Other than dry eyes...

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Why did the big boat crash into the bridge? It was an awesome sequence but I must have missed why it happened.

 

[Trup1aya]

What was the deal with Martin Hatch and the eyedrops?

Other than dry eyes...

I think it's how maintains his form, instead of going full shifter.

Meanwhile, he lets Paul suffer with archaic forms of treatment.

Why did the big boat crash into the bridge? It was an awesome sequence but I must have missed why it happened.

Since time is breaking down, it's causing objects to be in places at a time they shouldn't be. The way it's explained is that objects timelines are out of sync.

 

[Zedox]

I asked the same question here and some replied that Jack is probably going to need treatments just like Paul, and Hatch could give these to him.



I can tell you how Dr. Kim got there according to the book.

Please do.

Lastly, and a bit tongue in cheek... How can Jack (or any character) see During a stutter?

There is a note that says radios don't work in a stutter because the electromagnetic waves don't travel.

So shouldn't the same apply to visible light?

It should. Plot hole found.

 

[Family Fry]

What was the deal with Martin Hatch and the eyedrops?

Other than dry eyes...

If you examine his eye drop bottle on a table it says they are

Spoiler

chronon infused eye drops, which is of course what Paul takes to keep control of his disease.

Easily missed also.

 

[Messofanego]

What was the deal with Martin Hatch and the eyedrops?

Other than dry eyes...

That's his treatment for the stutters I think, while Paul gotta rely on Sofia's treatments.

 

[Zedox]

I have a hypothesis in which Jack can "save" Beth but still satisfy the closed loop.

Jack goes back in time to "save" Beth after she went back in time (1999) after being at the End of Time. Then since the time machine is still made, they use that time machine to go to a future a little bit after jack left to save her (just like he did to "save the world") and they live happily ever after, until something happens in that future (maybe Jack dies or something crazy, like maybe become a Shifter) and Beth goes back in time to stop it from happening (just like jack does to save beth) but she fails to do so and is stuck in a time after 1999 but before jack comes back to save her (for some reason the time machine doesn't work anymore).

She remembers what he told her about her dying, and realizing with her trying to change the past before when she first went to 1999 and seeing as she couldn't stop it by coming back again, she's stuck in that mindset in which we see her in QB1 where she has doubt and is lost in the sauce of being fucked and there's nothing she can do about it. She remembers the good times she and Jack had but goes on this path even though she knows she'll die. She's lost hope twice but goes on anyways because it's all apart of the plan just so she can experience those good times again within the loop.

It would really pain me to see that happen to her but it would definitely be something I can see happen and satisfy Remedy's rules. That is...until Hatch fucks up yo shit.

 

[LukasTaves]

I haven't heard any theories yet, so sorry if any of this has been discussed already, I'll try to catch up with this thread.

But for now, here's my quick theories after finishing the game:

- Hatch is a shifter and the first man to time travel, using that cave that became a natural time machine. That eye drops seems to be some kinda of "cure" to the shifter status that allowed him to be normal. He obviously wanted Paul to fail and Jack to succeed. I'm very torn on this topic, because it can have two implications:

1 - Paul was right and the past can't be changed. But the future after the time breaks is anyone guess because it never happened. So Paul was probably on the right track on fixing the time break for real. And Hatch wouldn't allow that.

2 - Paul was wrong and the past can be changed, but he also would be able to fix the time, so Hatch made him fail so he could persuade Jack into giving him the permanent zero state.

- About the time breaking. Paul saw the end of time in 2021, way past the events of the game. Which means that the end of time Paul saw might not be caused by his experiment, but rather something else that's yet to happen (which gives credit to the option 1 above).

- Paul became a shifter in the end, right? He disappeared as soon as the time lapse stopped and there were his dreams notes foreshadowing that. He also mentioned Jack would become a shifter too, which seems to be happening with those lapses Jack was experiencing at the end.

- I wonder if the shifters Paul and Beth confronted in the future are not actually Paul, and perhaps Jack?

- One thing I noticed, pretty much every major event in the game is paradoxal.

1 - Paul only goes to the future, sees the end of time and becomes what he became when Monarch invaded the University, but Monarch only existed because of the fact that he went to the future and changed.

2 - Beth was only a part of this mission because her older self told her that and put her on that mission.

3 - Beth diary tells that her trying to prevent Jack's parent to die only caused them to die.

4 - Willian only builds the thing that could save the world because Beth came back and told him to.

And so on, but the game is also pretty adamant that the events of the past can't be altered. So either that is a lie and they were altered, or they are somehow stuck in a loop timeline where they tried changing events that already happened but ended up causing them, or somehow time is not sequential and all those events happened in "the same time", like it really was just a plan and once it was determined everything just fell in place to make it happen.

 

[Trup1aya]

I haven't heard any theories yet, so sorry if any of this has been discussed already, I'll try to catch up with this thread.

But for now, here's my quick theories after finishing the game:

- Hatch is a shifter and the first man to time travel, using that cave that became a natural time machine. That eye drops seems to be some kinda of "cure" to the shifter status that allowed him to be normal. He obviously wanted Paul to fail and Jack to succeed. I'm very torn on this topic, because it can have two implications:

1 - Paul was right and the past can't be changed. But the future after the time breaks is anyone guess because it never happened. So Paul was probably on the right track on fixing the time break for real. And Hatch wouldn't allow that.

2 - Paul was wrong and the past can be changed, but he also would be able to fix the time, so Hatch made him fail so he could persuade Jack into giving him the permanent zero state.

- About the time breaking. Paul saw the end of time in 2021, way past the events of the game. Which means that the end of time Paul saw might not be caused by his experiment, but rather something else that's yet to happen (which gives credit to the option 1 above).

- Paul became a shifter in the end, right? He disappeared as soon as the time lapse stopped and there were his dreams notes foreshadowing that. He also mentioned Jack would become a shifter too, which seems to be happening with those lapses Jack was experiencing at the end.

- I wonder if the shifters Paul and Beth confronted in the future are not actually Paul, and perhaps Jack?

- One thing I noticed, pretty much every major event in the game is paradoxal.

1 - Paul only goes to the future, sees the end of time and becomes what he became when Monarch invaded the University, but Monarch only existed because of the fact that he went to the future and changed.

2 - Beth was only a part of this mission because her older self told her that and put her on that mission.

3 - Beth diary tells that her trying to prevent Jack's parent to die only caused them to die.

4 - Willian only builds the thing that could save the world because Beth came back and told him to.

And so on, but the game is also pretty adamant that the events of the past can't be altered. So either that is a lie and they were altered, or they are somehow stuck in a loop timeline where they tried changing events that already happened but ended up causing them, or somehow time is not sequential and all those events happened in "the same time", like it really was just a plan and once it was determined everything just fell in place to make it happen.

The bolded is my take on the matter. The instant will fired his time machine, everything already happened.

 

[LukasTaves]

Why did the big boat crash into the bridge? It was an awesome sequence but I must have missed why it happened.

In time lapses the time isn't just frozen, the timelines go back and foward sometimes and specific objects can desync from others. So it's like the boat advanced in time before the bridge was up.

 

[Bornstellar]

In time lapses the time isn't just frozen, the timelines go back and foward sometimes and specific objects can desync from others. So it's like the boat advanced in time before the bridge was up.

Yep. I imagine the same is true for the train crash, but across a later distance of time since the monarch building was built on a train station.

 

[Paragon Pariah]

I really don't understand how time can't be changed in the story. There had to have been an original timeline where Monarch didn't exist, right? It required someone to time travel the first time before any of those events could have played out.

 

[Bornstellar]

I really don't understand how time can't be changed in the story. There had to have been an original timeline where Monarch didn't exist, right? It required someone to time travel the first time before any of those events could have played out.

No, that's the whole paradox of time travel. The effects have to manifest before it happens.