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[A Link to the Past]

To me this reads a lot like sex is the biological/genetic marker, and gender is the social stuff, since roles/behaviors/activites are all certainly culturally defined, I would say? Not sure what "attributes" might mean.

When you say "maternal instincts" that's primarily in relation to child rearing/caring - is that a factor in defining what's feminine? I know a friend in particular who would strongly disagree. I'm also not sure how you could define specific traits or goals because you'd inevitably find women that don't match those traits or goals who still define themselves as female. Do you believe there's some sort of objective femininity?

All this being said, I agree that if transgender/gender is based in genetics than transracial isn't a thing. But basing gender and transgender inside genetics still seems pretty controversial considering the claims that have to be made.

A person who is trans is not choosing to be trans, a person who is trans is born that way.

 

[Arkage]

A person who is trans is not choosing to be trans, a person who is trans is born that way.

I don't believe in freewill as a rational concept to begin with so there's no actual "choosing" involved either way IMO.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't believe in freewill as a rational concept to begin with so there's no actual "choosing" involved either way IMO.

Listen, people have adequately explained to you why things are different. There is no cultural influence that leads trans people to be trans. There is an innateness to being trans. There is not an innateness to being black.

 

[Media]

Listen, people have adequately explained to you why things are different. There is no cultural influence that leads trans people to be trans. There is an innateness to being trans. There is not an innateness to being black.

100% this.

 

[echoshifting]

Are you fucking kidding me

Did that come out wrong? I mean to say, lying about your race on a job application is not a great strategy

Or are you expressing disbelief at her brazen behavior

 

[Arkage]

Listen, people have adequately explained to you why things are different. There is no cultural influence that leads trans people to be trans. There is an innateness to being trans. There is not an innateness to being black.

What you have to claim is that there is an innateness to being a gender. You did say there was an innateness to female gender but haven't defined it beyond maternal instinct. Then I posted the WHO definition saying gender is culturally based, and got ignored. It's fine if you don't feel comfortable defining it, but that you believe it anyway. But just say that then, instead of offhanded comments about how I've been "adequately explained."

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

So she was a white hotep? Damn.. where they do that at?

LOL @ white hotep

 

[excelsiorlef]

Did that come out wrong? I mean to say, lying about your race on a job application is not a great strategy

Or are you expressing disbelief at her brazen behavior

The latter. To still be claiming she's black on forms now after all this what a piece of work.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What you have to claim is that there is an innateness to being a gender. You did say there was an innateness to female gender but haven't defined it beyond maternal instinct. Then I posted the WHO definition saying gender is culturally based, and got ignored. It's fine if you don't feel comfortable defining it, but that you believe it anyway. But just say that then, instead of offhanded comments about how I've been "adequately explained."

Because there is actual science behind gender, behind being transgender. It is not a simple matter of culture, nor does the WHO report actually suggest it to be a sole matter of culture. Gender, in the end, is defined by feelings, by nature. The comparison explicitly makes no sense because we can see trans people existing in any variety of environment, without any female presence for them to template themselves. We can see physiological differences between trans women's brains and cis men's brains, such as that trans women respond to androgen in the way that cis women do. The only science that has ever suggested a difference between how a quote-unquote black brain and white brain work is science that has been debunked as white supremacist mythology.

 

[Cyframe]

I stated this on the first few pages but transracial has a very specific meaning. If you are using that term to describe Rachael Dolezal, you are also misappropriating the term like she has.

When a transracial adoptee talks about their own experiences, the first thing that comes to mind will be that fool Dolezal, rather than unique experiences that come from being one race and having parents who are another.

So, she's already done immense damage to the narrative of children coming from foster care, including her own brothers, and she doesn't seem ashamed of that.

 

[Arkage]

The comparison explicitly makes no sense because we can see trans people existing in any variety of environment, without any female presence for them to template themselves. We can see physiological differences between trans women's brains and cis men's brains, such as that trans women respond to androgen in the way that cis women do. The only science that has ever suggested a difference between how a quote-unquote black brain and white brain work is science that has been debunked as white supremacist mythology.

Can you link me something about transwomen existing where there's no female presence for them to template themselves off of? I really don't know what you mean when you say there's transwomen in areas where there's no female presence.

Also, I think this disagreement at this point comes down to a difference in semantics. I'm arguing against transgender, not transsexual, whereas you seem to be combining both and just saying "trans." Transexual, to me, includes the genetic components/brain scans you're talking about. I feel like the left is confusing itself and others when using "transgender" and then defining "gender" as malleable cultural norms. It has certainly confused me.

 

[Syder]

The latter. To still be claiming she's black on forms now after all this what a piece of work.

is that even legal?

 

[suzu]

People just want to play devil's advocate when it comes to this dumb transracial bullshit.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Can you link me something about transwomen existing where there's no female presence for them to template themselves off of? I really don't know what you mean when you say there's transwomen in areas where there's no female presence.

Also, I think this disagreement at this point comes down to a difference in semantics. I'm arguing against transgender, not transsexual, whereas you seem to be combining both and just saying "trans." Transexual, to me, includes the genetic components/brain scans you're talking about. I feel like the left is confusing itself and others when using "transgender" and then defining "gender" as malleable cultural norms. It has certainly confused me.

Transgender and transsexual have the same definition, more or less. They deal with slightly different things, but in the trans community, most trans people do not really use transsexual. And indeed, in reading, transsexual is used more for SRS-relating things by people when it is used, which has nothing to do with physiological aspects.

Further, it is only as confusing as it is to you because your understanding of these issues and aspects is not great.

 

[Arkage]

Transgender and transsexual have the same definition, more or less. They deal with slightly different things, but in the trans community, most trans people do not really use transsexual. And indeed, in reading, transsexual is used more for SRS-relating things by people when it is used, which has nothing to do with physiological aspects.

Further, it is only as confusing as it is to you because your understanding of these issues and aspects is not great.

I didn't say I had a great understanding of the issues, just that I'm attempting to understand them. Thank you for the conversation. I won't derail this topic further than I already have.

 

[caliph95]

The Guardian article indicates that she still claims to be black on employment forms...probably a factor in her inability to get a job!

Why is she making it difficult for herself or her family, it only pisses people off and companies will keep ignoring her because of the contreversy

 

[Japanmanx3]

*man, this thread's got an extra three pages on it since I last looked, I wonder if something poppe—*

(skims through thread)

Pretty much. Smh.

 

[Saiyu]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

 

[echoshifting]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

So are you not convinced by the points made in the discussion that just took place here or have you not considered them?

 

[excelsiorlef]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

We won't be so don't worry about it.

 

[watershed]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

All points have already been well covered. This thread is just going in circles now. You can just read a few pages from the start and that should fill in any questions you have.

 

[EatinOlives]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

"what if in 20 years pedophilia becomes socially accepted and we were the baddies the whole time!?"

Are these TRULY questions worth pondering? Or can we just call a spade a spade and simply say that this woman has issues?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in. But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

know how you used to not be a junior

 

[MetaCircular]

Because there is actual science behind gender, behind being transgender. It is not a simple matter of culture, nor does the WHO report actually suggest it to be a sole matter of culture. Gender, in the end, is defined by feelings, by nature. The comparison explicitly makes no sense because we can see trans people existing in any variety of environment, without any female presence for them to template themselves. We can see physiological differences between trans women's brains and cis men's brains, such as that trans women respond to androgen in the way that cis women do. The only science that has ever suggested a difference between how a quote-unquote black brain and white brain work is science that has been debunked as white supremacist mythology.

Thought experiment:

Let's say we couldn't find any physiological difference between transgender people and cisgender people, or straight and gay people (since results like those you mention are statistical in nature, it's probably the case that at least some trans/gay people are in fact indistinguishable by a brain scan).

In that case, would transitioning between genders suddenly become wrong/immoral?

I don't think it would, since I don't base moral judgements on genes/biology, but on whether or not a person's actions cause harm to themselves or others.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Thought experiment:

Let's say we couldn't find any physiological difference between transgender people and cisgender people, or straight and gay people (since results like those you mention are statistical in nature, it's probably the case that at least some trans/gay people are in fact indistinguishable by a brain scan).

In that case, would transitioning between genders suddenly become wrong/immoral?

I don't think it would, since I don't base moral judgements on genes/biology, but on whether or not a person's actions cause harm to themselves or others.

Not a valid argument; the issue is that promoting transracial in this context gives validity to the notion of "black brains" and "white brains," which are promoted by white supremacists. The point is to take down the barrier of there being such a thing as an innate race to a person, which serves to defend people like Dolezal of appropriating black culture and using blackface.

know how you used to not be a junior

Saiyu once told me that hate speech was a tool used to control people's imaginations

So it's kind of amusing that Saiyu is now concern trolling about whether we'll be viewed as transphobic, why does he want to control our imaginations

 

[MetaCircular]

Not a valid argument; the issue is that promoting transracial in this context gives validity to the notion of "black brains" and "white brains," which are promoted by white supremacists. The point is to take down the barrier of there being such a thing as an innate race to a person, which serves to defend people like Dolezal of appropriating black culture and using blackface.

I agree that race is not innate. I'm questioning why that matters morally speaking.

Even if gender was not 'innate,' being transgender doesn't seem like it should be immoral. If gender was not innate, would you be accusing people who wanted to live as the opposite gender of 'appropriating' culture?

Can you make a case against transracialism that doesn't depend in any way on genes/biology/innateness? If you can, do those same criticisms apply to transgenderism? Is the only defense against them that being transgender is genetic/innate?

EDIT; I don't really want to defend Dolezal here. I just really want to understand if the only morally relevant difference between transgenderism and transracialism is biological status.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I agree that race is not innate. I'm questioning why that matters morally speaking.

Even if gender was not 'innate,' being transgender doesn't seem like it should be immoral. If gender was not innate, would you be accusing people who wanted to live as the opposite gender of 'appropriating' culture?

Can you make a case against transracialism that doesn't depend in any way on genes/biology/innateness? If you can, do those same criticisms apply to transgenderism? Is the only defense against them that being transgender is genetic/innate?

Right now?

Yes because a lot trans health is inherently tied into the idea of it's immutability, surgery as health care goes right out the fucking window if it's not innate (and it is so I don't like these thought exercises much anyway). Access to surgery and even hormones (though mostly surgery) goes through medical professionals as trans folk have to get not one but two psychiatrists to sign off on it, we literally have to claw and fight for our true selves to be acknowledged by gate keepers to our treatment, they can reject us for any reason, putting pressure on us to conform to gender roles and what they expect a man or a woman is, hell some folk get denied surgery because the gate keepers don't like the name they chose for themselves. These folks are trained to err on the side of caution and deny you when in doubt (especially if they are what stands in the way between you and government healthcare paid surgery), and this is under a system of assumption of being transgender is an innate thing.

So pardon me if I don't want to play this game of what ifs and moral hypotheticals... where even in a world of the assumption of innate the deck can still be stacked against us.

This line of questioning is a waste of mental thought as Rachel freaking Dolezal is a liar and a fraud and a disgrace.

 

[Saiyu]

"what if in 20 years pedophilia becomes socially accepted and we were the baddies the whole time!?"

Are these TRULY questions worth pondering? Or can we just call a spade a spade and simply say that this woman has issues?

Has issues surely, but that doesn't devalue her arguments

 

[EatinOlives]

Has issues surely, but that doesn't devalue her arguments

It absolutely does, because her arguments are that of a crazy person.

 

[Saiyu]

It absolutely does, because her arguments are that of a crazy person.

Such as?

 

[LionPride]

Transracial won't be a thing

 

[excelsiorlef]

Such as?

She's a white woman who sued an HBC for discriminating against her for being white, said black men shouldn't date white women and silenced a hispanic woman from speaking on discrimination because she didn't look hispanic enough....

Dolezal is fucking nothing and doesn't deserve this bullshit sympathy.

 

[Frozenprince]

Sure is curious how only juniors seems to give a fuck about this being a real thing.

Curious indeed

 

[Syder]

So I posted the other thread on her and the Guardian interview does seem kind of....out there, but with some good arguments thrown in.
But what if we are judged in 20-30 years time as being transphobic (in terms of race)?

Nope. It's not a thing.

 

[Saiyu]

I think after reading about her life I felt sympathy, especially in how she grew up and came to identify with being black and the suing was addressed in the article as well. I also feel sympathy being mixed race and having a sister who identifies more with the "black" side while I do the "Asian" side.

It just feels, to me, that race is on a continuum, and I haven't seen persuasive arguments that say why gender is but race isn't.

* Comment about me being a junior is because I'm a 10 year vet that recently got juniored after making, what I thought were thought provoking threads.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think after reading about her life I felt sympathy, especially in how she grew up and came to identify with being black and the suing was addressed in the article as well. I also feel sympathy being mixed race and having a sister who identifies more with the "black" side while I do the "Asian" side.

It just feels, to me, that race is on a continuum, and I haven't seen persuasive arguments that say why gender is but race isn't.

* Comment about me being a junior is because I'm a 10 year vet that recently got juniored after making, what I thought were thought provoking threads.

And how would you feel if an obviously NOT Asian person tried to change their skin to appropriate a stereotypical Asian as well as made other cosmetic changes to their face and hair to try and pass as Asian then lie and say "I'm Asian"?

Could you understand how some might find that insulting?

Her and mixed people are two completely different conversations.

 

[EatinOlives]

I think after reading about her life I felt sympathy, especially in how she grew up and came to identify with being black and the suing was addressed in the article as well. I also feel sympathy being mixed race and having a sister who identifies more with the "black" side while I do the "Asian" side.

It just feels, to me, that race is on a continuum, and I haven't seen persuasive arguments that say why gender is but race isn't.

* Comment about me being a junior is because I'm a 10 year vet that recently got juniored after making, what I thought were thought provoking threads.

Except for that your sister IS actually mixed race, whereas Dolezal has no reasonable African descent. She's whiter than the Full House cast. Her parents said as much.

I can't just randomly identify AS Japanese. I can love the language, culture, history, I can identify WITH Japanese people and their values. But I can't pretend that I actually AM Japanese because I have no descent from that country whatsoever.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Yaaaas, the queen is back!

But for real, I get identifying with black culture if you grew up surrounded by it. I have no issue with her saying she feels more comfortable with it, and dressing, talking and in general associating with the black community. It's why I think she was fine as an advocate for black rights.

But you can't just claim to be another race when you're not. Claiming you can just choose to be black just isn't... viable. I don't even know how to put it into words properly. It's offensive in a way, that someone assumes claiming to be a member of a race is possible, without having to go through what a visible minority does on a daily basis -- essentially "becoming" black when it's convenient.

Like, maybe in a "post-racial" society thousands of years from now you could claim to not have one, but I think that could come with its own issues and maybe something being lost.

All of this may be total nonsense, but I'm struggling to find the right words. I think a large part of that is being a white male and being used to being the majority, you know? I'm bi, but I'm "straight acting" (ugh), so I don't typically experience what it's like to be a minority in any true sense of the word.

Sorry for the rambling!

 

[Saiyu]

But then, taking it from someone hated here, Germaine Greer asked how can someone born a man identify with what it's truly like to be a woman?

To use your line:

I can't just randomly identify AS a woman. I can love the persona, culture, history, I can identify WITH women and their values. But I can't pretend that I actually AM a woman because I was never born a woman.

I think one of the problems is it can (usually) be one way - whites can pretend to be black, but the reverse is rarely possible

 

[Mammoth Jones]

But then, taking it from someone hated here, Germaine Greer asked how can someone born a man identify with what it's truly like to be a woman?

To use your line:

I can't just randomly identify AS a woman. I can love the persona, culture, history, I can identify WITH women and their values. But I can't pretend that I actually AM a woman because I was never born a woman.

I think one of the problems is it can (usually) be one way - whites can pretend to be black, but the reverse is rarely possible

How many times it need to be said in this thread that comparing it to gender is not valid??

 

[Saiyu]

How many times it need to be said in this thread that comparing it to gender is not valid??

Because of....science?

Can we honestly, at this stage say there are no scientific differences between white and black people?

 

[EatinOlives]

But then, taking it from someone hated here, Germaine Greer asked how can someone born a man identify with what it's truly like to be a woman?

To use your line:

I can't just randomly identify AS a woman. I can love the persona, culture, history, I can identify WITH women and their values. But I can't pretend that I actually AM a woman because I was never born a woman.

I think one of the problems is it can (usually) be one way - whites can pretend to be black, but the reverse is rarely possible

*sigh*, this has been covered countless times in this thread. Just read through the thread and responses, you're really not covering any new ground here.

 

[Kthulhu]

You shouldn't have lied then lady. WTF did she think would happen?

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Because of....science?

Can we honestly, at this stage say there are no scientific differences between white and black people?

Oh. Oh no. This is going down a dark path...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Because of....science?

Can we honestly, at this stage say there are no scientific differences between white and black people?

Please elaborate. You do realize it's 2017 and not 1817, right? Scientific racism has been debunked.

"What the study of complete genomes from different parts of the world has shown is that even between Africa and Europe, for example, there is not a single absolute genetic difference, meaning no single variant where all Africans have one variant and all Europeans another one, even when recent migration is disregarded," Pääbo told Live Science. "It is all a question of differences in how frequent different variants are on different continents and in different regions."

In one example that demonstrated genetic differences were not fixed along racial lines, the full genomes of James Watson and Craig Venter, two famous American scientists of European ancestry, were compared to that of a Korean scientist, Seong-Jin Kim. It turned out that Watson (who, ironically, became ostracized in the scientific community after making racist remarks) and Venter shared fewer variations in their genetic sequences than they each shared with Kim.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/

 

[Platy]

Because of....science?

Can we honestly, at this stage say there are no scientific differences between white and black people?

Some countries don't even have the same definition of how black you need to be to be considered black

 

[EatinOlives]

Oh. Oh no. This is going down a dark path...

Amazing how people manage to twist themselves into knots making their arguments. Not only do we now have insultingly poor understanding on what it means to be Transgender, we now have some good old fashioned scientific racism on the side!

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Some countries don't even have the same definition of how black you need to be to be considered black

This. America historically one drop rule.

Other places you get treated and regarded way differently if you're 50/50, or 75/25 or 1/16....etc.

Not that this has fuck all to do with someone with 0.0 that just got a good tan and curled their hair up and claimed to be 100%.

Amazing how people manage to twist themselves into knots making their arguments. Not only do we now have insultingly poor understanding on what it means to be Transgender, we now have some good old fashioned scientific racism on the side!

Maybe kids these days forget this was once a thing....

 

[rhandino]

The lenghts people go to defend this woman after she pulled shit like this:

and this

Like, what in the world?

 

[A Link to the Past]

EDIT: Nm