Support NeoGAF

[EatinOlives]

That's what the Guardian said happened without saying that was 'her version'. Maybe the press went to the family because the police dude tipped them off?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel

Actually, re-reading it, I guess it did come from her.

I think you're coming around to the fact that she did NOT have good intentions, but don't forget the instances of her trashing black women for marrying white guys or preventing a Hispanic girl from speaking about her experiences on race because she didn't "look Hispanic enough". She was shitting on the ethnic make-up of other people as she lived her life in costume.

 

[A Link to the Past]

People who talk about transracial being real (or at least debatable), I wish they'd talk more about the concept of black brains/white brains

Because that's really kind of explicit in determining whether transracial is real - the concept suggests that black people have different brain from white people.

 

[Mael]

People who talk about transracial being real (or at least debatable), I wish they'd talk more about the concept of black brains/white brains

Because that's really kind of explicit in determining whether transracial is real - the concept suggests that black people have different brain from white people.

And just like that you basically pulled the curtain as to why the whole thing is BS.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And just like that you basically pulled the curtain as to why the whole thing is BS.

TBF the curtain was pretty transparent

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

I thought she was medical student, what happened to that?

 

[Professor Beef]

 

[Charles Brandon]

I think you're coming around to the fact that she did NOT have good intentions, but don't forget the instances of her trashing black women for marrying white guys or preventing a Hispanic girl from speaking about her experiences on race because she didn't "look Hispanic enough". She was shitting on the ethnic make-up of other people as she lived her life in costume.

I can't defend any of that and I don't want to either.

According to her, she isn't a white woman in blackface, she's a black woman in white skin. Does that make sense? No. She is completely deluded but it is from that delusion that these incidents stem. According to that article (and I'm aware that it's very much her version) she did a lot to support the black community, you could even say that it was her raisen d'etre but somewhere along the way she crossed a line and deceived herself that it was OK because she was somehow black on some deeper level.

I absolutely acknowledge the harm and offence she caused and is still causing by refusing to renounce her position but mostly I find the whole story very sad. I don't think she is crazy but she has some big personality defects. But then so do serial killers.

 

[Nepenthe]

Even if she hadn't made up crocks of shit about hate crimes, tried to blacksplain to her own black students, sued a black college on grounds of discrimination because she's white, lied on her parents, and so forth- even if she was "innocent" or "not malicious"- the point I wish people would realize is that it is the very insistence by her against the wishes of the black community that she is by ancestral blood and/or meaningful cultural experience one of us that is offensive on its own merits.

What does it matter that she "helped the black community?" One, Tim Wise manages to help without doing anything but laying claim to his own whiteness. Two, even without ill intent, the whole charade still hurts the black community by trying to define it as something white people can claim whenever they feel like. It's not enough to just whitewash, appropriate, if not outright take every other cultural contribution we've made in this country. Now you're trying to take who we actually are? Y'all can miss me with that fuckboi shit.

This is not sad. This is not tragic. It is racist. It is harmful. It is offensive. Instead of feeling sorry for her and trying to explain about delusions, character flaws, mental illness, or whatever else, shame and then forget her shucking and jiving ass. That would be a whole lot more help, honestly.

 

[depths20XX]

Didn't she fabricate hate crimes against herself to gain attention in the first place? Yeah, this lady is fucked up in a few ways.

 

[Arkage]

People who talk about transracial being real (or at least debatable), I wish they'd talk more about the concept of black brains/white brains

Because that's really kind of explicit in determining whether transracial is real - the concept suggests that black people have different brain from white people.

I think it's murky territory all around. Some say gender is a social construct in order to get around the genetically determined sex biology, but there are markers in the brain that correlate with "feminine" and "masculine", in which transgender women identify more with the "feminine" markers. So biologically it can be "proven" but that doesn't explain if it was genetic. Were those brain markers socially constructed or genetically constructed? If socially constructed, then you might be able to say transracial is a "thing" since the brain is being shaped by cultural norms it finds appealing, whether they're gender cultural norms or racial cultural norms. I suppose in this case it wouldn't be transracial to a particular color but transracial to a particular culture that the color represents. In Dolezal's case it would be African American cultural norms.

But then if you say transgender is genetically determined, you're going to run into the determined sex problem that ends up framing transgender as having some sort of genetic marker (which some studies have shown there might be), one that could be measured to see if a person is truly "transgender" or not.

Two, even without ill intent, the whole charade still hurts the black community by trying to define it as something white people can claim whenever they feel like. It's not enough to just whitewash, appropriate, if not outright take every other cultural contribution we've made in this country. Now you're trying to take who we actually are? Y'all can miss me with that fuckboi shit.

This is the same argument anti-trans feminists use. That men are trying to appropriate the experiences suffered by women by associating womens experiences as primarily dresses and makeup and "sexiness." They feel that it's an attack on their identity and experiences and suffering. It might be a more valid argument when used against transracials, but I'm not exactly sure how.

 

[LionPride]

Trans-racial isn't a fucking thing unless you feel like you're a mid 30s white man asking what IPAs are on tap

 

[Charles Brandon]

Even if she hadn't made up crocks of shit about hate crimes, tried to blacksplain to her own black students, sued a black college on grounds of discrimination because she's white, lied on her parents, and so forth- even if she was "innocent" or "not malicious"- the point I wish people would realize is that it is the very insistence by her against the wishes of the black community that she is by ancestral blood and/or meaningful cultural experience one of us that is offensive on its own merits.

What does it matter that she "helped the black community?" One, Tim Wise manages to help without doing anything but laying claim to his own whiteness. Two, even without ill intent, the whole charade still hurts the black community by trying to define it as something white people can claim whenever they feel like. It's not enough to just whitewash appropriate every other cultural contribution we've made in this country. Now you're trying to take who we actually are? Y'all can miss me with that fuckboi shit.

This is not sad. This is not tragic. It is racist. It is harmful. It is offensive. Instead of feeling sorry for her and trying to explain about delusions, character flaws, mental illness, or whatever else, shame and then forget her shucking and jiving ass. That would be a whole lot more help, honestly.

Well I can see how it can be all those things and sad at the same time. I'm not trying to downplay anything or reject your outrage. It is outrageous. But it's sad too. I think it is anyway.

 

[Frozenprince]

Well I can see how it can be all those things and sad at the same time. I'm not trying to downplay anything or reject your outrage. It is outrageous. But it's sad too. I think it is anyway.

I don't think it's particularly sad. Her life was built in a complete fabrication and it collapsed the minute her lie came out

 

[Syder]

Well I can see how it can be all those things and sad at the same time. I'm not trying to downplay anything or reject your outrage. It is outrageous. But it's sad too. I think it is anyway.

She benefited from lying. She contrived this situation herself.

 

[LionPride]

Well I can see how it can be all those things and sad at the same time. I'm not trying to downplay anything or reject your outrage. It is outrageous. But it's sad too. I think it is anyway.

What's sad is the amount of people who have caped for a woman who used my heritage and culture as a lie for some fucking reason. Who crated fabrications because she could?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

*man, this thread's got an extra three pages on it since I last looked, I wonder if something poppe—*

(skims through thread)

 

[Charles Brandon]

Yup well It's difficult for me to continue this without just restating that I find it sad. I have no interest in defending her, she brought it on herself, she deserves the opprobrium.

 

[Nepenthe]

This is the same argument anti-trans feminists use.

Scientifically-literate people say the Earth is round (technically an "oblate spheroid"), and that anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Flat earthers say the Earth is flat, and that anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Both sides use the same judgement of character, so I guess everyone's crazy. #bothsides

It might be a more valid argument when used against transracials, but I'm not exactly sure how.

You know exactly how because I know for certain how you're going to answer these two questions, because there's only a correct answer to each:

1.) Can any given purebred dalmatian you randomly choose from a population have a chance of being male, female, or even intersex?

2.) Can any given purebred dalmatian you randomly choose from a population ever have a chance of being a purebred corgi?

 

[Nuu]

Edit:
For those of you who don't know what Soul Man is:

It's the film that torpedoed C. Thomas Howell's career.

So...is the film any good?

 

[PSqueak]

If we are in an age of progressive identity transformation, why can't one change their appearance to be more in line with the race they might identify with? Curious on opinions - is it just a particular issue with this one lady?

Gender identity is an expression of the self.

Claiming you're a race other than you're born is not an expression of yourself, it's an expression of your perception of a social group.

No two guys, no two women express their gender in the same way, a transgender person is expressing their selves through their gender identity.

A person claiming they're transracial would not be expressing their selves, but expressing the stereotypes or behavior they have formed of other races, ie, expressing the behavior they think other people have.

 

[Frozenprince]

Again, you will find trans people everywhere. Even when they don't have the same concept of gender roles and norms as we do here in the West.

Are there Uyghurs who don't even know what a black person is suddenly feeling like something is profoundly wrong or empty that can only be filled by getting a tan and listening to The Roots?

They aren't equivocal and to assume they are is insulting to actual trans people.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Are there Uyghurs who don't even know what a black person is suddenly feeling like something is profoundly wrong or empty that can only be filled by getting a tan and listening to The Roots?

Im dead 😂😂😂.

 

[Zantetsuken]

*man, this thread's got an extra three pages on it since I last looked, I wonder if something poppe—*

(skims through thread)

I thought the same exact thing.

 

[Arkage]

You know exactly how because I know for certain how you're going to answer these two questions, because there's only a correct answer to each:

1.) Can any given purebred dalmatian you randomly choose from a population have a chance of being male, female, or even intersex?

2.) Can any given purebred dalmatian you randomly choose from a population ever have a chance of being a purebred corgi?

The argument for #2 is a little different then you're framing. It's not that a dalmatian would be a corgi, it's that the dalmatian feels more like a corgi than a dalmatian, or would want to identify as a corgi and live like a corgi.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think it's murky territory all around. Some say gender is a social construct in order to get around the genetically determined sex biology, but there are markers in the brain that correlate with "feminine" and "masculine", in which transgender women identify more with the "feminine" markers. So biologically it can be "proven" but that doesn't explain if it was genetic. Were those brain markers socially constructed or genetically constructed? If socially constructed, then you might be able to say transracial is a "thing" since the brain is being shaped by cultural norms it finds appealing, whether they're gender cultural norms or racial cultural norms. I suppose in this case it wouldn't be transracial to a particular color but transracial to a particular culture that the color represents. In Dolezal's case it would be African American cultural norms.

But then if you say transgender is genetically determined, you're going to run into the determined sex problem that ends up framing transgender as having some sort of genetic marker (which some studies have shown there might be), one that could be measured to see if a person is truly "transgender" or not.

You don't need to be "transracial" to identify with black culture while being a white person. People do it without putting on blackface ALL the time. "Transracial" and "transgender" are entirely different things.

 

[Frozenprince]

TIL Eminem is transracial.

 

[caliph95]

Again, you will find trans people everywhere. Even when they don't have the same concept of gender roles and norms as we do here in the West.

Are there Uyghurs who don't even know what a black person is suddenly feeling like something is profoundly wrong or empty that can only be filled by getting a tan and listening to The Roots?

They aren't equivocal and to assume they are is insulting to actual trans people.

Well they can't be too bad

 

[A Link to the Past]

The argument for #2 is a little different then you're framing. It's not that a dalmatian would be a corgi, it's that the dalmatian feels more like a corgi than a dalmatian, or would want to identify as a corgi and live like a corgi.

Trans people grow up with female desires and a female mindset. "Transracial" people do not grow up "wanting to be black" unless they're exposed to it. The way to put this is, if a trans girl is never exposed to other girls, she'll still have this mindset and these desires, while someone who claims to be transracial does not have anything innate that leads them to it.

 

[LionPride]

Trans-Racial scene from Atlanta

 

[Arkage]

You don't need to be "transracial" to identify with black culture while being a white person. People do it without putting on blackface ALL the time. "Transracial" and "transgender" are entirely different things.

You didn't explain how transgender and trans racial are different. Anti-trans feminists probably think that men putting on makeup to "feel like a woman" is the equivalent to blackface. "Why can't he just say he appreciates and identifies with female culture while being a man?"

Please be clear I'm not saying the point I'm arguing is the correct path. I just can't find the line in the sand that separates these concepts if they're both based on cultural norms.

 

[Syder]

You didn't explain how transgender and trans racial are different. Anti-trans feminists probably think that men putting on makeup to "feel like a woman" is the equivalent to blackface. "Why can't he just say he appreciates and identifies with female culture while being a man?"

Please be clear I'm not saying the point I'm arguing is the correct path. I just can't find the line in the sand that separates these concepts if they're both based on cultural norms.

Transgender is not based on cultural norms.

 

[Frozenprince]

Trans-Racial scene from Atlanta

God it makes me laugh every single time.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I caught up to Atlanta late, so I didn't see this when it aired. Went back and read some of the recaps on Vulture and AV Club to get a sense of how it played at the time after I watched it.

People didn't really know what the fuck to do with that episode, did they

 

[LionPride]

I caught up to Atlanta late, so I didn't see this when it aired. Went back and read some of the recaps on Vulture and AV Club to get a sense of how it played at the time after I watched it.

People didn't really know what the fuck to do with that episode, did they

Yo folks were so thrown off by that episode

 

[Slayven]

I caught up to Atlanta late, so I didn't see this when it aired. Went back and read some of the recaps on Vulture and AV Club to get a sense of how it played at the time after I watched it.

People didn't really know what the fuck to do with that episode, did they

Yo folks were so thrown off by that episode

It was the best episode of tv all year. Shit was greatness

 

[Arkage]

Trans people grow up with female desires and a female mindset. "Transracial" people do not grow up "wanting to be black" unless they're exposed to it. The way to put this is, if a trans girl is never exposed to other girls, she'll still have this mindset and these desires, while someone who claims to be transracial does not have anything innate that leads them to it.

Transgender is not based on cultural norms.

So both of your arguments seem to be that gender identity is genetically based, immutable from birth. But then I'm confused when people keep stressing how gender is different from "sex" because gender is cultural norms and sex is the genetic biological markers.

Also, which female characteristics do you expect are genetically marked? Makeup and clothing styles certainly shouldn't have much to do with it since they're totally culture based.

 

[Frozenprince]

It was the best episode of tv all year. Shit was greatness

Solidified it as must watch TV for me. So damn brilliant. Should have won an Emmy

 

[Nepenthe]

The argument for #2 is a little different then you're framing. It's not that a dalmatian would be a corgi, it's that the dalmatian feels more like a corgi than a dalmatian, or would want to identify as a corgi and live like a corgi.

No it's not.

What you're talking about is an inherently emotional/mental expression of body and mind mismatch which in turn would- by default- have to recognize the existence of anything resembling the existence of brains that are identifiably unique and exclusive to each and every single dog breed, which is literally Medieval pseudoscience that gets explained away in the first few days of even the most generic psychology class.

If I put the brain scans of a labrador and the brain scans of a golden retriever in front of you, you nor anyone else would be able to point to anything to definitively tell the difference, because the groups of predictable yet benignly-felt phenotypical expressions we effectively call "dog breeds" has nothing to do with the overtly-felt cerebral and physiological traits that determines gender. This is why every fucking dog breed can have the potential to be either male, female, or intersex on rare occasions, while you can't possibly breed a "dalmatian" with another "dalmatian" and expect to somehow get the dumbass loaf of bread we call a "corgi." The genetic potential to express the combination of traits that is a corgi simply isn't fucking there in a dalmatian.

Meaning, if we ever had a dalmatian sapient enough to express fucking "transbreedism" or whatever the fuck bleeding-edge progressives would race to call it, it would be the result of a subjective desire to fit in with whatever the fuck "corgi culture" is, which is no less sad then the damn weeaboos from middle and high school trying to be Japanese or otherkin saying that they're really a dragon trapped in a human's body, and not actually a sign of something remotely equivalent to a male dalmatian that expressed the desire to be referred to as a female dalmatian instead.

 

[Slayven]

Solidified it as must watch TV for me. So damn brilliant. Should have won an Emmy

Show is so damn black

 

[Syder]

People didn't really know what the fuck to do with that episode, did they

Yo folks were so thrown off by that episode

How come? I thought it was a pretty straightforward sketch.

 

[Ketkat]

Also, which female characteristics do you expect are genetically marked? Makeup and clothing styles certainly shouldn't have much to do with it since they're totally culture based.

Do you think clothing and makeup define women?

 

[A Link to the Past]

So both of your arguments seem to be that gender identity is genetically based, immutable from birth. But then I'm confused when people keep stressing how gender is different from "sex" because gender is cultural norms and sex is the genetic biological markers.

Also, which female characteristics do you expect are genetically passed down? Makeup and clothing styles certainly shouldn't have much to do with it since they're totally culture based.

No one is making the argument that gender is cultural norms. People are telling you that gender has cultural norms.

A person who is not exposed to any femininity will still have innate maternal instincts. People who are exposed to femininity, who are told "these traits and goals of women are innate to being a women," will be more inclined to adopt those things because they are people who think of themselves as women, and in turn adopt those things. Whether it's right or wrong, the innate feeling of femininity, of being a woman, exists regardless of culture, and qualities considered feminine are adopted by trans women because they learn that these are qualities of being a woman.

"Transracial" people do not experience this. They do not grow up thinking, "I'm a black person" if they don't know what it means to be a black person, or if they haven't been exposed to "black culture."

 

[LionPride]

How come? I thought it was a pretty straightforward sketch.

All I remember were legit discussions about what the point of the episode was and Harrison's character as well as Paper Boi.

Like, it got wild on these internet skreets

 

[Breads]

TIL culture dysmorphia is a thing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I hope she can find safe ground for her and her family one day

I don't think there was any type of malice in what she did.

Sure other than denying a hispanic student the right to talk about discrimination because she didn't look Hispanic enough, insulting black men for dating white women and suing and HBC for racial discrimination on the basis of her being white. Plus she very likely invented a bunch of racist attacks against the local black community before she got found out

 

[A Link to the Past]

Sure other than denying a hispanic student the right to talk about discrimination because she didn't look Hispanic enough, insulting black men for dating white women and suing and HBC for racial discrimination on the basis of her being white. Plus she very likely invented a bunch of racist attacks against the local black community before she got found out

The irony is that the right was embracing Dolezal, but they always complain about fake racist attacks.

 

[Slayven]

All I remember were legit discussions about what the point of the episode was and Harrison's character as well as Paper Boi.

Like, it got wild on these internet skreets

When Paper Boi and the lady came to an understanding at the end, it threw a lot of people off.

 

[Arkage]

No one is making the argument that gender is cultural norms. People are telling you that gender has cultural norms.

A person who is not exposed to any femininity will still have innate maternal instincts. People who are exposed to femininity, who are told "these traits and goals of women are innate to being a women," will be more inclined to adopt those things because they are people who think of themselves as women, and in turn adopt those things. Whether it's right or wrong, the innate feeling of femininity, of being a woman, exists regardless of culture, and qualities considered feminine are adopted by trans women because they learn that these are qualities of being a woman.

"Transracial" people do not experience this. They do not grow up thinking, "I'm a black person" if they don't know what it means to be a black person, or if they haven't been exposed to "black culture."

According to the World Health Organization, "Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."

To me this reads a lot like sex is the biological/genetic marker, and gender is the social stuff, since roles/behaviors/activites are all certainly culturally defined, I would say? Especially when they frame it as what "a given society considers appropriate." Not sure what "attributes" might mean.

When you say "maternal instincts" that's primarily in relation to child rearing/caring - is that a factor in defining what's feminine? I know a female friend in particular who would strongly disagree. I'm also not sure how you could define specific traits or goals because you'd inevitably find women that don't match those traits or goals who still define themselves as feminine. Do you believe there's some sort of objective femininity?

All this being said, I agree that if transgender/gender is based in genetics then transracial isn't a thing. But basing gender and transgender inside genetics still seems pretty controversial considering the claims that have to be made.

 

[LionPride]

When Paper Boi and the lady came to an understanding at the end, it threw a lot of people off.

Lol, that was a crazy day

So was the Juneteenth episode

 

[excelsiorlef]

The Guardian article indicates that she still claims to be black on employment forms...probably a factor in her inability to get a job!

Are you fucking kidding me