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Refugee worker in Sweden fatally stabbed
- Thread starter Enter the Dragon Punch
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ClosingADoor
Member
When did it become Europe's responsibility to take in millions of people without question and educate them?
When you started participating in a proxy war leveling the refugee's homes. And basic humanity.
ClosingADoor
Member
When did Germany and Sweden participate in a war in the Middle-east leading to this situation?
Basic humanity would not have you let people drown in an ocean and walk across a continent with all the dangers that come with it. And that is what the current policies has people do. While making smugglers rich and have the weak be abused on the way here.
leatherhat
Member
The response should be even the most bare minimum screening or border security to keep criminals out. The answer is not to continue to heap money on the bonfire of open borders while telling yourself "this time it will work!"
Also the comparison to America is just weird. Do you think native Swedes have huge gangs or something? Or that Swedes have a harsh criminal justice system?
God damn Sweden and its proxy wars!
Can't speak for Germany but Sweden has provided the Syrian government with rockets and tracking technology prior to the war.
http://www.svenskafreds.se/vapen-i-syrien
(in Swedish unfortunately).
Not necessarily something that should decide policy but definately something to keep in mind as we continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia for example.
You do know we (Sweden) export a lot of weapons right?
leatherhat
Member
So? Selling weapons hardly makes Sweden responsible for Middle Eastern and African Strife.
ClosingADoor
Member
I am against selling arms to countries like this for sure. But I do not think it counts as participating in a proxy war or destabilizing the region.
Many people are quick to blame "the West" for the situation, while not remembering a lot of European countries (Germany being the most important) did not participate in the Iraq invasion which lead to all this stuff now with ISIS in the end. Using that as an argument to tell these countries have an obligation to take in refugees is very strange.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
But people aren't rationally discussing policy, they are hating and fearmongering.
Saying thats a policy discussion is like saying Trump is just rationally discussion policy instead of driving sentiments against mexicans and muslims.
Just read through this thread, or even better, read some comment sections on other websites or even youtube.
Stuff like that: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=193253006&postcount=55
Is racist. Unless thats some kind of twisted gaf-sarcasm.
MisterFalcon
Member
The Google translation does not mention any arms sales to Syria by Sweden since the 1950's and the pretty comprehensive SIPRI database on arms sales doesn't have any either. Some Swedish-made stuff has turned up in the conflict but that could have come from anywhere. If you want to assign responsibility to take refugees from arms sales to Syria 99% of the refugees should go to Russia.
No, we are not responsible (which no one is saying), but we contribute.
ClosingADoor
Member
Why do you bring in Trump in this conversation? American politics has little to do with European when it comes to this.
Are there racists making their bad views known in this discussion? Yes there are. But I am seeing little of it on GAF here honestly. Most people are just worried about the current situation and would like their politicians to come with solutions and a plan, something they have lacked for some time now. That is not hateful or racist. If any discussion about problems with minorities and how to solve those are racist, then a lot of serious issues will not be addressed or solved.
I would also say the constant posts and worries about how this could support the far right is not rational discussion either.
Being upset that we're letting attackers in en mass to Europe is not racist. Those attacks in Cologne would never have happened if it wasn't for the current refugee crisis.
Didn't the chemical weapons in Syria come from Germany?
lol
Obviously the foreigners must have introduced the concept of murder to innocent Europe!
Natives never commit any crimes amirite?
ClosingADoor
Member
A lot of countries made deals with dictators in the Middle-east and other parts of the world. Do I support it? No. But it is also not the same thing as fighting a war or pulling that trigger yourself.
The argument that European countries have an obligation to take in millions of refugees because they have participated in proxy wars is a false one.
Obviously, we can look the other way, since people were murdered before, instead of addressing the problems of overcrowded refugee centers and the things that take place there. Which can be solved by 1) increased funding and housing, but also 2) limiting the amount of people you take in. Both are perfectly fine things to do at the same time.
leatherhat
Member
One could argue that you are making broad generalizations in the post Giga quoted. A meaningless clarification such as "If we had not let that foreigner in, who later went on to commit a crime, said foreigner could not have committed said crime in our country" is not exactly helping your case.
Europe is historically obligated to give billions of reparations to the countries they colonized and fucked up. Not only that but it's the only way to fix the refugee crisis, by giving people a life to look forward too.
I don't feel bad for our dumb-ass leaders who keep supporting bombings and destruction of local economies. Europe has created the problems themselves and did not act when countries were in trouble.
But no poor Europe, y nobody leave us alone in our 1st world fortress
ClosingADoor
Member
But we are not doing that. We are moving tons of people from poor countries towards us, instead of using that money to invest in those countries and have them grow and develop. That is not a solution to the problems in those countries.
And don't feel bad for the leaders. They will be fine in their nice houses. Feel bad for the people feeling the hurt of this, which are mostly the poor in Europe already because of lower wages, increased housing prices because of limited supply and crime in the neighborhoods that are already not the best.
It's not just one. My generalisation is that enough of them are criminals that things like mass sexual attacks do in fact take place. I'm by no means saying everyone is, that's ridiculous.
People are great at separating out each individual problem and saying its a one off if it agrees with their personal bias. It's like the gun nuts in America saying guns aren't the problem, people will die no matter what.
People are great at separating out each individual problem and saying its a one off if it agrees with their personal bias. It's like the gun nuts in America saying guns aren't the problem, people will die no matter what.
How about the refugees that flee for their life due to civil war, persecution etc? You can't really invest the money in that country since it won't solve the problem.
I agree that we should have invested instead of accepting (economic) refugees but it's essentially 'too late' to not accept some refugees. Our politicians fucked up, more specifically the EU failed.
Countries were asking for financial help, partly to stop migration but the EU refused to help.
Furthermore I do not accept the 'housing prices' argument. Neo-liberal policies had already messed up housing markets in certain countries. Our government in the Netherlands would have a shortage of affordable houses with or without refugees.
leatherhat
Member
What a nonsensical belief. Should Turkey be obligated to pay reparations for its invasions, enslavements and colonization of Eastern Europe as the Ottoman Turks? Of course not. For some reason though Europe must pay for the ways it partitioned the Ottoman Empire after its collapse.
ClosingADoor
Member
Same way England, the US and Canada are doing it. Taking people directly from the refugee camps, so you help the most vulnerable. But in larger numbers then they are doing at the moment.
This will stop abuse of the system in place now, prevent people from making a dangerous journey and end up dead, does not lead to a large gender gap (most refugees now are young males) and does not overload the systems in place.
You are right that a lot of this could have been solved by having better government and policies in the past. We should have listened to Italy and Greece, we should not have ISIS get a hold on Syria for so long now, and when it comes to housing in mostly Western European countries we already had shortages.
However, those problems are now here. We should learn from it for the future, but you can not wave away current problems and just let them increase because of bad decisions in the past. You can't say "crime happens" and not try and solve the problem that leads to these crimes now.
Please note that I am not against helping refugees from Syria and other war torn countries. They should be helped. But how our governments try to do that currently is not a good one.
It feels like some confused asylum with migration.
quackamole
Member
Same for all southern Europe basically. They been asking the EU for help but the rich northern EU countries basically told them to deal with it. Well now that shit is hitting their fan they want EU soldarity.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
calm down, so far you're the one doing most of the hating here
yup Spain, Malta also have cried for help for years
No. People act like refugees introduced crime, or rather their culture, see the blame on multiculturalism. We already had research proof that culture and crime rate have no significant correlating effect on each other when comparing with people from the same social class/neighborhood.
Ok. I'm going to just leave the discussion. I'm not trying to be racist, I don't think I've even once mentioned ethnicity or origin, but focused on criminality.
If that is coming off as racist I need to take a step back and consider what I'm saying.
ClosingADoor
Member
And then you see no problem in creating a larger lower class in society from these refugees with increased problems?
You already know I don't prefer immigration but want big investments instead but we are where we are.
We need those investments and proper refugee camps first before we can properly deny/slow down asylum for refugees. You can already see Greece and Italy becoming afraid to being trapped with thousands of refugees if countries like Macedonia close their borders.
The other option is closing the borders and shooting at every boat coming to the EU coast. That will be great PR.
If you have another plan than be my guest but I like to solve the problems and not protest without a realistic alternative.
ClosingADoor
Member
I think we agree then, since we need to fund the refugee camps there and then take in the most vulnerable.
The problem will be stopping the people from coming now, and also from other countries. Not shooting at boats, but they will have to be sent back somehow. Otherwise, why wouldn't people try and make the journey.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's a pretty crappy fortress right now. I think that's gonna change this year though.
I didn't say ''so what'''at all, I was replying to someone who said this is what you get with ''multiculturalism'' and that imo is not true.
I definitely think anti-immigration policies will surge in popularity from now on.
Yes I believe you need to let the North-African countries handle this, give them equipment if needed and financial aid to fund the extra jobs. Let them patrol the waters en masse and bring people back to refugee camps.
They have big youth unemployment issues and will gladly do this (countries like Libya have already been offering to do this).
This should also help Turkey, which has trouble juggling between saving refugees from the boats and stopping them from crossing.
This is a very complicated issue though and I'm probably simplifying this. We'll see what the EU will come up with.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Time to invest in companies that make barbed wire and concrete walls.
White man's burden, bro.
Kölsch Bloot
Member
What an awful time to live in!
I really don't get all the negativity regarding the refugee topic in general. I do not try to defend this sick individual, who killed that poor girl, by any means. I just really don't get all the fuzz and negativity about refugees. They are people just as we are and been through more than some of us could ever imagine. There sure are some (fanatic) idiots and criminals mixed in. But those could be westerners as well. Our states just have to take this issue seriously and should deport criminal refugees as they should detain criminals of their own nationality. But our politicians mishandled this whole thing from the start. And instead of treating the source we're fighting the symptoms. Refugee contingencies don't fix inhumanity in middle east. But neither do bombs and troops, as they are the reason we're in this fucking mess.
We should accept that there are various shades of gray in between black and white, as we'll need one, if not multiple of them, to maneuver our sinking ship, aka. the EU (or what's left of it), out of this fucking mess (aka. xenophobia and opposing welcoming culture)
I really don't get all the negativity regarding the refugee topic in general. I do not try to defend this sick individual, who killed that poor girl, by any means. I just really don't get all the fuzz and negativity about refugees. They are people just as we are and been through more than some of us could ever imagine. There sure are some (fanatic) idiots and criminals mixed in. But those could be westerners as well. Our states just have to take this issue seriously and should deport criminal refugees as they should detain criminals of their own nationality. But our politicians mishandled this whole thing from the start. And instead of treating the source we're fighting the symptoms. Refugee contingencies don't fix inhumanity in middle east. But neither do bombs and troops, as they are the reason we're in this fucking mess.
We should accept that there are various shades of gray in between black and white, as we'll need one, if not multiple of them, to maneuver our sinking ship, aka. the EU (or what's left of it), out of this fucking mess (aka. xenophobia and opposing welcoming culture)
but that's pretty much what people and some politicians are doing
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