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Retro VGS, cartridge-based retro game console now on IndieGoGo

I was really behind this system from day one, even to the point where I was running a site called RETRO VGS Club, and started a podcast just before the campaign went live, but as soon as I saw the campaign, I just had to pull the plug on everything.

Living in Europe, the system works out at over $500 once you factor in duty/VAT and shipping. Wasn't going to happen. After seeing all this recent shitfuckery going on, really glad I bailed when I did. Mike did seem a cool guy, but it seems like he's turning when backed up against a wall like this.

I wonder if this bad publicity will trickle back on the magazine?

You should have kept up with the campaign and the podcast too. I listened to your episode and I thought you guys were great. You were very fair to them. You should have followed the story with a renewed critical angle (if that's what you feel now) and after the dust has settled from this whole thing you can probably reboot it into your own retro gaming news site.

If you made a second podcast episode I'd listen to it. It's not too late, at least for now.

Either way, I'm glad you saw the light when the campaign went live, I'd be pissed too if I was that invested in this.
 
Ok I know just recently in a post here I said I had no strong feelings about this system one way or the other, and I really hate to say this, but now I'm glad it won't get funded. The way these guys, Mike Kennedy in particular, have responded to valid criticism and handled things like their Facebook page are beyond ridiculous and embarrassing. Seriously, Mike Kennedy should be ashamed of himself. He's acting like a typical forum troll, and the victim complex is laughable. Plugging your ears and deleting comments to silence criticism is the last thing you should be doing if your goal is to win people's support (and money).

I don't think another crowdfunding campaign in a year or so is a good idea, and I don't think it would work. This guy has burned his bridges, even losing support from people that were on his side from the start. The way this campaign has been handled, or mishandled, is not something people will easily forget. If he doesn't want to completely ruin his reputation, which could in turn doom his magazine, he should consider dropping the attitude he's been displaying over the past few days and walking away from this mess. Each passing day has made Mike and his team look worse, and the longer he continues making excuses and angering what should be potential supporters, the deeper the hole he is digging for himself. I've heard he's a really nice guy, and a good reputation isn't easy to build. However, as we have seen, it can easily be destroyed in a matter of days.
 
Mike Kennedy doesn't just want the community to fund this system....he wants us to fund his ENTIRE BUSINESS.

It's insane. I'm pretty sure Kickstarter and Indiegogo weren't created so folks can fund the start of a new LLC or corporation. Mike talks about having this system compete with Sony, MS, and Nintendo....what the hell is he thinking? If he had decided to create a $99 system to cater to a VERY SPECIFIC niche, he may have had a chance (probably not), but this is nuts. You can't expect to ask people to FUND YOUR ENTIRE COMPANY that exists to make an ultra-niche product on a freakin' crowdfunding site. Absolutely ridiculous. At least with something like OUYA, the team already had the business side of their operation established, including a prototype and a controller they built themselves. On Gamester81's interview, he states they literally haven't even officially formed a proper company yet. WHAT. WHY ARE YOU ASKING PEOPLE FOR MONEY RIGHT NOW. Find some investors to get you started. Take out a loan. DO NOT ASK PEOPLE TO PAY FOR THE FORMATION OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
I was really behind this system from day one, even to the point where I was running a site called RETRO VGS Club, and started a podcast just before the campaign went live, but as soon as I saw the campaign, I just had to pull the plug on everything.

Living in Europe, the system works out at over $500 once you factor in duty/VAT and shipping. Wasn't going to happen. After seeing all this recent shitfuckery going on, really glad I bailed when I did. Mike did seem a cool guy, but it seems like he's turning when backed up against a wall like this.

I wonder if this bad publicity will trickle back on the magazine?

So was I Raven, from day 1. It's sad. :(

Heck, I posted the main thread back in MAY talking about the system here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1043605&highlight=

I'm not going over again what I think Mike and crew *need* to do to salvage the campaign. It's beating a dead horse and that horse ain't moving. :(

I do like Mike, he seems like a nice enough guy and I've only heard good things about him and his magazine(the digital issue I bought of Retro was great!).

IMHO, he's damaging his reputation and good will with the gaming community. Every day that campaign is live just feels like a big middle finger to the rest of us who want to see it taken down and rebooted.

And see, that's the problem I don't think Mike can swallow. We don't want the campaign down to see it fail, quite the opposite! We want it down so they can go back behind the scenes and retool it, get a prototype working and come back strong on Kickstarter.

Every day the current campaign stays up, the further away I feel supporters are being pushed away(I know that's how I feel).

This borders on that old joke about a man drowning in a lake and praying to God for help. 3 boats end up passing the man after they ask him if he needs help. He refuses all of them saying "God will help me". He eventually drowns and gets to heaven at the Gates of St Peter. The man asks St Peter, "why did I die? I asked God for help"! St Peter chuckles and replies "He sent you 3 boats"!

Mike-listen to us fans and supporters. Reboot the campaign. I'll gladly fund a campaign to help get a working prototype together and then relaunch a Kickstarter next year.

EDIT-If he's projecting a $70-$90 profit off each system sold, that's crazy. That's why the price of the system went from $199! There's no way that profit margin should be going to you Mike, sorry.
That should be going back into bringing the cost down for us gamers. Raise the price *after* you've become established. If you have plans for getting on store shelves, that's when you raise prices
and increase your profits. Don't jam up your early backers/adopters.
 

emb

Member
So was I Raven, from day 1. It's sad. :(
Same here. Well, I don't know exactly when day 1 was, but as soon as I heard about this thing I thought it was a cool idea, and have really wanted it to succeed. I even backed it.

Retro VGS team, before the next time a post gets made about how everyone is hating on you, unfair, etc, know that there are supporters. Most of the people that bother to talk about your system probably want to see it happen and succeed. There are just too many problems with the system and the campaign, at this point the negativity is justified.
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
Same here. Well, I don't know exactly when day 1 was, but as soon as I heard about this thing I thought it was a cool idea, and have really wanted it to succeed. I even backed it.

Retro VGS team, before the next time a post gets made about how everyone is hating on you, unfair, etc, know that there are supporters. Most of the people that bother to talk about your system probably want to see it happen and succeed. There are just too many problems with the system and the campaign, at this point the negativity is justified.

Emb-welcome to the RetroVGS support group! ;) Anyways, if you haven't seen or heard about this already, check out Kevin(Kevtris) Horton's fpga based game system(he's got a working prototype) here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/

I'm following it closely. Kevin was originally on board with the RetroVGS guys but is no longer. He's basically got a system ready to go and has been sitting on it. He's gauging interest now to see if he should produce it. It sounds amazing and it's basically what I wanted the RetroVGS to be.

Read up and let me know what ya think!
 
https://youtu.be/Pi10cm1pQXM

So uhhhh.... I thought they didn't have any sort of prototype because it's too expensive and they needed about $200k from the crowdfunding campaign to start work on one? Yet here's John Carlsen showing off what's in his own words a "stripped down version of their Retro VGS prototype", from the Retro VGS lab (aka his kitchen). Am I missing something here?

Credit to Atari Age for posting the link, which is where I saw this.
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
https://youtu.be/Pi10cm1pQXM

So uhhhh.... I thought they didn't have any sort of prototype because it's too expensive and they needed about $200k from the crowdfunding campaign to start work on one? Yet here's John Carlsen showing off what's in his own words a "stripped down version of their Retro VGS prototype", from the Retro VGS lab (aka his kitchen). Am I missing something here?

Credit to Atari Age for posting the link, which is where I saw this.

Man, this is freaking bizarro world with this. So they *DO* have a working prototype? They said they didn't? Which is it?

I got turned off by the lawyer and patent talk. No need for lectures. We know how that works. Just a quick "patents pending" mention is all that's needed.
 
https://youtu.be/Pi10cm1pQXM

So uhhhh.... I thought they didn't have any sort of prototype because it's too expensive and they needed about $200k from the crowdfunding campaign to start work on one? Yet here's John Carlsen showing off what's in his own words a "stripped down version of their Retro VGS prototype", from the Retro VGS lab (aka his kitchen). Am I missing something here?

Credit to Atari Age for posting the link, which is where I saw this.

That video was weird as hell. At least it's something, I guess.
 
So they *DO* have a working prototype? They said they didn't? Which is it?

When I posted the link this is what I was asking. I'm not a tech guy and I'm legitimately confused. Does what Carlsen showed in the video constitute a prototype? If not, why did he specifically call it that? Do they already have a prototype or do they need the campaign to be fully funded so they can put $200k towards starting work on a prototype like they claim?
 

emb

Member
Emb-welcome to the RetroVGS support group! ;) Anyways, if you haven't seen or heard about this already, check out Kevin(Kevtris) Horton's fpga based game system(he's got a working prototype) here: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242970-fpga-based-videogame-system/

I'm following it closely. Kevin was originally on board with the RetroVGS guys but is no longer. He's basically got a system ready to go and has been sitting on it. He's gauging interest now to see if he should produce it. It sounds amazing and it's basically what I wanted the RetroVGS to be.

Read up and let me know what ya think!
Sounds like he's well prepared, sounds like the system is a good idea.

Every time I heard about it, the focus seems to be on accurately emulating old hardware and possibly playing existing games. I'd rather play them on the actual original hardware. All I want is a system that can play low games released these days that otherwise wouldn't get physical releases. I don't care if it's cartridges or read-only SD cards or DVDs. Lack of network connection would even be a plus to me, too. I'll wait and see what that ends up being, and I definitely might be on board already once I've read a little more closely.

Interesting. Seems like they desperately want to produce a prototype to address one of the main concerns people are expressing. Putting some kind of board into that shell is something, I suppose. It's not a game running, but likely a step in the right direction.

I don't think anything they can do will matter at the pricepoint they're at though.

I'm sad to hear they're spending time and money getting patents. If they create the system, show the 'prior art' or whatever, they wouldn't need patents to just protect themselves would they? Wouldn't the patent rights there just mean stopping the rest of the world's people from being able to do things? I guess it's a necessary evil in business. *shrug*
 
Agreed. Very bizarre. At least it's something which is what people have been requesting for a long time. But their lack of explanation of what it is will probably cause more questions than answers. I know it's "stipped down" but it doesn't even fit in the case, they just put the Jaguar clear case over the board. I don't know if this is a prototype but under Mike Kennedy's definition, it's not "technically" a prototype.

It is something, so I guess it's still alive and kickin'. Does it absolve the past or reverse the errors they've made so far? I dunno, we'll have to see.
 
http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3330371

More from Atari Age. If this guy is indeed who he says he is....

Regardless of what you think of the Retro VGS, this entire campaign and the fallout around it have been incredibly entertaining. I can't wait to see what happens next!

Pipercub, on 25 Sept 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:
Full disclosure of who I am, I co-founded RetroGaming Roundup with Socal and UK Mike, I own 3% of GameGavel and I stand to make allot of money if this thing goes though. That said Socal Mike has burned me several times in the last 2 years and I have had it. I was the original designer of this console when it was first conceived (until I wasn't), and it was going to be good. If you listen to our interview with them it was somewhat of a deposition to establish that many people contributed to this console that got erased from its history, myself included.

We're still trying to figure out if this thing has an actual prototype, so how can he be the designer? It's a pretty big accusation to make on a public forum without proof. Then again, proof hasn't meant much to this project.

Edit: oh shit, I didn't even notice the last part of that first line. What do you guys suppose he means by that? Does he think he's entitled to part of the crowdfunding earnings if funding succeeds? Is anything on this project NOT fucking cryptic and vague?

*opens popcorn*

keep talkin'
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
RVGS%20Proto.jpg


EDIT-someone pointed out to me on the Atari Age forums that if it's a true prototype, it would most likely not fit into a case so I stand corrected.
 

westman

Member
https://youtu.be/Pi10cm1pQXM

So uhhhh.... I thought they didn't have any sort of prototype because it's too expensive and they needed about $200k from the crowdfunding campaign to start work on one? Yet here's John Carlsen showing off what's in his own words a "stripped down version of their Retro VGS prototype", from the Retro VGS lab (aka his kitchen). Am I missing something here?

Credit to Atari Age for posting the link, which is where I saw this.

My guess is that it's not their own board, but an off-the-shelf eval board for the ARM SOC they intend to use, possibly wired to some additional components they intend to use in their own design (e.g. for analog video). The window system they showed was probably a demo that came with the eval board rather than their own software. I guess you could justify calling that a "stripped down version of their Retro VGS prototype" if it is indeed similar enough to be useful for prototyping, yet be somewhat reluctant to do so if the eval board is not really their design. Chip manufacturers often allow customers to copy whatever they want from their reference designs / eval boards, so ownership of such a "stripped down prototype design" would not need to be a problem in practice.

EDIT: I now see that there are two boards under the plastic shell, so my new guess is that they have wired two eval boards together - one for the ARM SOC and one for the FPGA.
 
His answer in his facebook update doesn't clear up much. He repeats the rules, how KS was willing to grant them an exception, but still doesn't explain why.

He also says he's keeping Mike in the dark because of patent concerns. It all seems very fishy. What campaign on earth would trade the negative publicity and mistrust they've earned in exchange for protecting their patents? If they're that concerned with patents, then why bother with crowdfunding at this time?

Other concerns- If they can't publicly disclose anything (because patents) then how would developers have prototypes?

Facebook
RETRO VGS - First Update from John
JOHN CARLSEN·FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2015

We&#8217;ve promised regular updates on the progress of our product development. I see no reason to wait until after our funding campaign ends. So here we are, nearly a week after our funding campaign began at < http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/r... >...
I&#8217;d like to start my first update by giving a heartfelt thanks to our many loyal fans--especially our backers--and also an apology.

We haven&#8217;t been showing you our best work, and there are many reasons why.

The true visionary behind this project is Mike Kennedy. He&#8217;s also a marketing person with a big heart, and he wants to reciprocate the enthusiasm our followers show us by being totally open and sharing everything. I get it, and I admire him for that. But he talks, and he talks about everything I show or tell him. Again, he&#8217;s a marketing person, and that&#8217;s what marketing people do.

Knowing this about Mike (and about marketing people in general), causes me (as an engineer) to be very cautious in choosing what I share with him. The reason for this is very simple: our inventions are valuable, and premature public disclosure of our inventions would cause us to lose the ability to protect them with patents.

For most of this year I&#8217;ve been working crazy long startup hours on this project. I&#8217;ve drained my own savings to pay for both my living expenses and building prototype circuits. I have invested a lot of time and money, I have a lot to show for it.

The problem is: I can&#8217;t patent what I share publicly. As a result, I&#8217;ve been protecting my inventions as if they were my own children.

I know this doesn&#8217;t seem fair to you, our fans, especially when we ask you to help us fund building our dream system. So, I will be sharing more.

Although I have been reading many online discussions for months, I started chiming in only about a week ago. I&#8217;m still getting used to so much public dialogue, as I&#8217;m more of a geeky introvert who has been busy designing the RETRO VGS hardware and putting together cost estimates, budgets, timelines, and everything else that goes into managing a major project like this.

At this point, I&#8217;d like to try and dispel some of the misinformation that&#8217;s out there.

#1: We know what we&#8217;re building. We defined our requirements and architecture months ago, and they haven&#8217;t changed. One of the great things about our architecture is that it allows us to adapt our design to even the major changes we&#8217;ve seen in the component market, and it allows us to pick and choose the best components as the market changes and as our available funding grows.

For example, one semiconductor vendor (one of my favorites, the one that supplied the CPU that I built a PlayStation around) is now introducing a new generation of CPU and removing support for an old one that looked attractive earlier. The vendor has great parts and they pitched them to us well, but ultimately those parts weren&#8217;t the best fit for this product. (Giving them the extra consideration we did also delayed development of our prototype, but the prospect of using the newest part on the market was too good to ignore.)

To include the best parts that we can afford to use based on how much we raise during our funding campaign, we have so far published very few specifications about the internal components. When we have, those specifications have been based on the minimum configuration we would build.

That minimum configuration now includes (and will not be reduced below) a CPU running at least 16,000 DMIPS. That&#8217;s a pretty serious piece of hardware, which already makes RETRO VGS compare more closely to a PlayStation 3 than to a Raspberry Pi 2.

Through announcing stretch goals, we have tried to convey that our FPGA can grow in capacity and capability as our funding exceeds our minimum goal. Unfortunately, this seems to have caused some confusion, which we will attempt to clear up as soon as possible.

#2: We have working prototypes. For software, our game developers already have working prototypes and many even already sell finished products that run on classic platforms. For hardware, I just shot a quick video showing a little bit that won&#8217;t risk our patent rights. It isn&#8217;t much, but it shows our processor communicating via USB and driving simple high-resolution digital and analog video output. Most of our circuits are already in our enclosure, but I still have lots of ribbon cable and hand-wired circuits hanging out the back. If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10... >.

#3: We didn&#8217;t switch to Indiegogo at the last minute. We had all agreed to use Indiegogo at least two weeks before we launched our campaign. (We mention Indiegogo in a video we shot more than a week before launch.) There was a lot to do, and we were slow to get the word out.

#4: We didn&#8217;t switch to Indiegogo because we didn&#8217;t have a working prototype.
Kickstarter publishes a rule stating that &#8220;Projects that involve the development of physical products must feature explicit demos of working prototypes. While you can run a project focused on the creation of a prototype, you can't offer the product that is under development as a reward.&#8221; (from < http://www.kickstarter.com/rules/pr... >)
Kickstarter clearly lets many current projects slide past this requirement, and they granted us an exception, too. Getting a private exception to this publicly-stated policy seemed deceptive toward backers, and we called them on it. Kickstarter welcomed our project, but wouldn&#8217;t change its policy statement to match.

#5: We don&#8217;t need to hit our stretch goals to include an FPGA. Even at our minimum funding goal, RETRO VGS will include an FPGA. Hitting our stretch goals allows us to use larger devices, which just extends what we can do with a system that&#8217;s already very impressive.

#6: We don&#8217;t need an FPGA to run software designed to run on classic consoles.
However, new games can use the resources available in RETRO VGS much more efficiently by running natively on our system, without a layer of emulation, whether the emulation is done in hardware or software; higher efficiency means that the game can do more, or at least consume less power while doing it. Emulating classic systems in hardware is also probably the worst use of this great (and expensive) resource; it is much more economical to emulate those systems via software, but we will of course optimize an emulation we do to use the resources we have available.

#7: We don&#8217;t need an outside vendor to supply FPGA cores.
An FPGA is a large programmable logic device. The first time I contributed to the design of a consumer product that shipped with programmable logic was in 1989. Over the next few years, I created many more circuit designs in and around programmable logic devices of increasing sizes. After leaving Iguana Entertainment in the mid 1990s, I spent years designing chips for one of the two largest FGPA makers, which gave me intimate knowledge of the devices. Working there also gave me free access to the company&#8217;s best design tools and the people who wrote them; I love the Atari 800, so for fun that was naturally the first thing I started building cores for, with the company&#8217;s high-end devices. What were the company&#8217;s high-end devices then are only now tapering off the low end of the market, providing amateurs a good place to start. (I have continued to use newer devices since then.)

We thought we had a good vendor to delegate some of our work to and/or from whom we could leverage existing work. Clearly it didn&#8217;t work out. Although I&#8217;m disappointed by his apparent lack of professionalism, he does good work and I wish him luck in his future endeavors.

#8: We are going to make adapters that let you play cartridges from older systems. Mike let the cat out of the bag early on this one. (Again, Mike talks about everything.) Yes, it&#8217;s true, and it&#8217;s going to be awesome. There&#8217;s a lot of engineering yet to be done on these (mostly mechanical design and making tools for injection molding plastic) and it&#8217;s a relatively low priority for me right now, but we will definitely offer adapters at very affordable prices that allow game cartridges from selected older systems to be played on RETRO VGS.

For example, our &#8220;Expansion Module #1&#8221; plugs in like a regular cartridge, but it has switches at the top and a slot on the front that will accept and play game cartridges that were made for the Atari VCS (2600/2600A) or Sears Tele-Games system, with potentially enough room under the slot for a wood-grain sticker. When an Atari VCS cartridge is inserted into the front of the adapter, the Atari VCS cartridge sits over the top of the RETRO VGS dome so you can read the end label and the top label, many of which were printed with important information including which number to select for which game and which controller(s) to use. Atari VCS games can be played using RETRO VGS USB controllers or classic 9-pin controllers.

We hadn&#8217;t yet posted this on our campaign page, and the word is already out.

With that, I end my first public status report, and thank you for your continued support.

- John Carlsen
 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
So John is saying he can't trust Mike with keeping things quiet. Ok.

John, Mike.....anyone from RetroVGS reading this: For the love of God Almighty, mercy kill the campaign and go back to the drawing boards.
 

Balb

Member
I think some of the Retronauts write for Mikes Retro magazine, you probably won't be hearing from them.

They record months in advance anyway.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/235430-how-has-this-not-been-posted-yet-retro-vgs/?p=3330371

More from Atari Age. If this guy is indeed who he says he is....

Regardless of what you think of the Retro VGS, this entire campaign and the fallout around it have been incredibly entertaining. I can't wait to see what happens next!

Wait, is that Scott? That'd be crazy if so.
 

chrislowe

Member
Its probably an developmentbosrd from some manufactor. I have several too and it looks like a basic window demo included.
And if it had been their own prototype why even make a windowbased operatingsystem on it?? :)
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
His answer in his facebook update doesn't clear up much. He repeats the rules, how KS was willing to grant them an exception, but still doesn't explain why.

He also says he's keeping Mike in the dark because of patent concerns. It all seems very fishy. What campaign on earth would trade the negative publicity and mistrust they've earned in exchange for protecting their patents? If they're that concerned with patents, then why bother with crowdfunding at this time?

Other concerns- If they can't publicly disclose anything (because patents) then how would developers have prototypes?

Haha, this is gold. Guy should have learned at least a little bit of marketing and PR speech himself before spouting he doesn't trust his own startup collegue with information :D
They record months in advance anyway.



Wait, is that Scott? That'd be crazy if so.
Oh. Oooooh.
 

chrislowe

Member
Just a quick thing.
Why isnt it piracy to emulate a cpu on an fpga?
Or do Zilog / Motorola / Intel doesnt care that you use a z80 emulation on an fpga instead of the real cpu?
Or are they too old and their hardware can be copied freely these days? :)
 

NeOak

Member
His answer in his facebook update doesn't clear up much. He repeats the rules, how KS was willing to grant them an exception, but still doesn't explain why.

He also says he's keeping Mike in the dark because of patent concerns. It all seems very fishy. What campaign on earth would trade the negative publicity and mistrust they've earned in exchange for protecting their patents? If they're that concerned with patents, then why bother with crowdfunding at this time?

Other concerns- If they can't publicly disclose anything (because patents) then how would developers have prototypes?

What a load of...
 

Sorcerer

Member
They record months in advance anyway.



Wait, is that Scott? That'd be crazy if so.


It sounds like it. Who else could be a co-founder of Retro Gaming Roundup with a 3 percent stake in Game Gavel?

Odd to read Scott, and UK Mike have some friction with Mike.
 

Dash Kappei

Not actually that important
He is dead wrong about there not being a market for a system like Retro VGS. Kevtris's idea is already generating much more goodwill and support from the community, and a FPGA console designed to play homebrew games designed for older hardware, if done right, could have a big following. But Retro VGS is flat out failing on all points to bring a solid, cohesive vision with some tangible substance at this point of the life cycle.

People want a cartridge-based retro-style console. They just don't want the Retro VGS. "Do the math" on that one, guys.

The Dreamcast, besides playing the original release of the RVGS's "announced" game Gunlord, can even play a beautiful, fully working version of Xbox One/PC's exclusive Volgärr The Viking. I'd say that is pretty current and definitely not that limiting, is it? Especially considering a $149 piece of tech would be definitely more powerful now. Hell, the 3DS has no problems rendering Shovel Knight in (400x240)x2!
 

Balb

Member
It sounds like it. Who else could be a co-founder of Retro Gaming Roundup with a 3 percent stake in Game Gavel?

Odd to read Scott, and UK Mike have some friction with Mike.

They did seem to harbor resentment toward Mike in the news section every month for the past year or so and the writing style in that post fits Scott's from what I've seen on other forums. Man that'd be really crazy if that actually is him though.
 

TriAceJP

Member
I could make a cheap PC that has more power than this thing for less than $300.

I mean, I like the idea as a novelty but price accordingly.
 

SegaShack

Member
I like Gamester81 a lot but I hope people realize he is completely biased. His team is making the pack-in game for the system and he's a backer of the system. This interview feels like an ad in a lot of ways.

Also, John made a point about the negatives of patching by saying it took him over 30 minutes to download Super Mario Maker's day one patch. BS. That thing was incredibly small and took around two or three minutes to download . I wish certain people who have a problem with aspects of modern gaming would ease up on the hyperbole.
Actually I also had to wait a half hour for the day one Mario Maker patch. I have 55 megabits per second and even did a speed test at the same time to ensure my internet wasn't going slow.
 
There's so many unanswered questions here. If John is keeping Mike in the dark, then is he taking those patents for himself?

I still don't get the biggest question of all- why commit crowdfunding suicide by launching on Indiegogo and treating your fanbase like shit when you're working on a prototype all along?

But there's a big IF in all of that. The AtariAge guys are already explaining that it's clearly a development board from a manufacturer running software that comes with the dev kit. If that's true and it all just a kit that came in the mail, it makes their whole setup with wires and soldering iron very misleading. I'm starting to think this might be smoke and mirrors.
 

chrislowe

Member
ok, looks like one of the boards under the transparent Jaguar-case is a Lattice EB68 Machxo2 protoboard. And the manual for it is in the background in the video aswell.
the protoboard is connected to the red board, which probably is another protoboard.

picture in the manual of the green board
file:///home/chronos/u-77084ea594952929fad1e6400f7f47fb17fd8bb2/Downloads/MachXO2BreakoutBoardEvaluationKitUsersGuide.pdf

could also be some other variant of lattice-board. but well well :)
 
But there's a big IF in all of that. The AtariAge guys are already explaining that it's clearly a development board from a manufacturer running software that comes with the dev kit. If that's true and it all just a kit that came in the mail, it makes their whole setup with wires and soldering iron very misleading. I'm starting to think this might be smoke and mirrors.
More smoke and mirrors. John hastily wired up this contraption in the past couple days once it was apparent how severe the backlash was for not having a prototype.

Him saying the mere mention of an existing prototype would jeopardize his "patents" sounds extremely fishy to say the least.
 

Balb

Member
More smoke and mirrors. John hastily wired up this contraption in the past couple days once it was apparent how severe the backlash was for not having a prototype.

Him saying the mere mention of an existing prototype would jeopardize his "patents" sounds extremely fishy to say the least.

Yeah something is really off about John.
 

westman

Member
Just a quick thing.
Why isnt it piracy to emulate a cpu on an fpga?
Or do Zilog / Motorola / Intel doesnt care that you use a z80 emulation on an fpga instead of the real cpu?
Or are they too old and their hardware can be copied freely these days? :)

They are old enough that any patents would have expired, so you would only need to worry about copyrights. Copyright only protects a specific implementation (and derivate works thereof) but allows non-infringing implementations that achieves the same thing in an independent implementation. If you had access to the original schematics or mask sets for a CPU and based your FPGA implementation on that information, it would be seen as a derivative work and therefore infringe on the copyright of the original implementation. But if you only made use of datasheet information (describing the "what" but not the "how") you would probably be safe.
 

panda-zebra

Member
Mike Kennedy doesn't just want the community to fund this system....he wants us to fund his ENTIRE BUSINESS.

It's insane. I'm pretty sure Kickstarter and Indiegogo weren't created so folks can fund the start of a new LLC or corporation. Mike talks about having this system compete with Sony, MS, and Nintendo....what the hell is he thinking?

And as it seems there is no formal arrangement between the three parties in terms of an RVGS company, and if Carlsen is, as his video suggests, the one taking legal advice from a celebrity attorney, and not Mike/RVGS as presented in the gamester "interview", surely there's some conflict of interest? Wouldn't RVGS be at the mercy of Carlsen down the line if he's the one personally in possession of vital system components/processes/software/ or whatever the heck is patentable with those off-the-shelf components?

How does one search out new patent applications? Carlsen's Syncopated-related businesses would probably be the vehicle for registering them I'd have thought.

There's so many unanswered questions here. If John is keeping Mike in the dark, then is he taking those patents for himself?

BOOM, exactly.
 
The hell, I nod off for the night and awake to find that their apparent *~Masterstroke~* was to grab and throw some obfuscated, plausible shit together from RadioShack---only to find that, outside of their bubble divorced from reality, RadioShack has been gone awhile now so all they could settle for is just obfuscated shit in a weird video and a strange FB update?

Just when I think they've hit rock bottom they find a way to go deeper into the absurd...
 
hpdjw6t3oxpoxvirf7oe.png


"Fast Start Time" - Can I see how long it took the prototype to boot to compare my consoles to it?

"Durable Media" - Good to know, while still undecided on what the media in the carts will be, the carts will be tough. Cool that a 90's era plastic mold was designed so well that it can protect a potential HDD inside it from a fall off the shelf. My discs also have trouble lasting 25+ years because of how fragile they are so a potential cart based on 25 year lasting Flash would also be far superior.

"Low Price" - Nice job selecting the early bird price for the Retro VGS and keeping the original $499 Xbox One price. The $349 XB1 should not count because it lacks a 1TB hard drive and/or Kinect - both essential to games.

I like the idea of this platform in the way I love all bizarre/different game related projects but this chart makes some big assumptions on how the project will pan out without a prototype built or other decisions locked-in.
mobile gaf should put this on the header of the next OT. WE GOT FAST START UP TIMES WOOOO
 

entremet

Member
I wish Retronauts or something would talk about this...

I did. But only in passing.

The record episodes in bulk, so they're probably behind with the new news of this.

That said, what's there's to talk about? It's a ill-conceived project having trouble. Not really much conversation fodder for a show like Retronauts.
 
The Dreamcast, besides playing the original release of the RVGS's "announced" game Gunlord, can even play a beautiful, fully working version of Xbox One/PC's exclusive Volgärr The Viking. I'd say that is pretty current and definitely not that limiting, is it? Especially considering a $149 piece of tech would be definitely more powerful now. Hell, the 3DS has no problems rendering Shovel Knight in (400x240)x2!

I just saw that and it's pretty cool. I can see what you're saying, but new DCs aren't being manufactured anymore and the old units can fail due to bad lasers, or the battery dying, etc. At that point the amount of physical consoles actually working decreases.

This is where I can see an FPGA system essentially built to emulate something like DC on the hardware level with 100% accuracy can be VERY useful, and is probably one of the best case uses of the technology in video games, at least this early on.

Retro VGS, at first, sounded like it was doing that (but with much older and weaker systems), and then it became a Frankenstein monstrosity.

Mike Kennedy doesn't just want the community to fund this system....he wants us to fund his ENTIRE BUSINESS.

It's insane. I'm pretty sure Kickstarter and Indiegogo weren't created so folks can fund the start of a new LLC or corporation. Mike talks about having this system compete with Sony, MS, and Nintendo....what the hell is he thinking? If he had decided to create a $99 system to cater to a VERY SPECIFIC niche, he may have had a chance (probably not), but this is nuts. You can't expect to ask people to FUND YOUR ENTIRE COMPANY that exists to make an ultra-niche product on a freakin' crowdfunding site. Absolutely ridiculous. At least with something like OUYA, the team already had the business side of their operation established, including a prototype and a controller they built themselves. On Gamester81's interview, he states they literally haven't even officially formed a proper company yet. WHAT. WHY ARE YOU ASKING PEOPLE FOR MONEY RIGHT NOW. Find some investors to get you started. Take out a loan. DO NOT ASK PEOPLE TO PAY FOR THE FORMATION OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!

This is hilarious because it sounds more and more true by the minute.
 
IGG update: Total amount of money backed has dropped once again to $64,124.

There is a strong possibility that if they let this IGG run for the whole duration it could finish with under $50,000 backed.

All of their recent interviews and posts have done nothing, yet they are still hoping for that one lucky outlet that will cause them to go viral.
 

Risible

Member
LOL at that ginned-up prototype setup.

We don't have a prototype. Public complains. Oh wait we do have a prototype.

I think they have moved from the realm of "well meaning but incompetent" to "outright lying to salvage the project."
 
I like Gamester81 a lot but I hope people realize he is completely biased. His team is making the pack-in game for the system and he's a backer of the system. This interview feels like an ad in a lot of ways.

Also, John made a point about the negatives of patching by saying it took him over 30 minutes to download Super Mario Maker's day one patch. BS. That thing was incredibly small and took around two or three minutes to download . I wish certain people who have a problem with aspects of modern gaming would ease up on the hyperbole. Edit- Apparently, other people have had issues with this patch taking a long time to download, so I apologize for my misinformation on this point.

Actually, it's ironic that Super Mario Maker was used as an example. That game getting a patch on day one is the reason we should allow patching, not prevent it. That patch was a change based on user feedback on people not liking how things got unlocked. Had that game been released on Retro VGS, there would be no way to make that change and it's not considered a bug. It's a patch to improve the game after it had been manufactured.
 

Bar81

Member
I think they have moved from the realm of "well meaning but incompetent" to "outright lying to salvage the project."

No need to qualify it, they are now outright lying and have proved what most have suspected for some time - that Mike and crew are as shady as they come. They have now ensured that this project is forever DOA - whether they eventually reboot/build a prototype or not.
 
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