Unless you are PA, right? :/
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Rock, Paper Shotgun will no longer cover PAX...
- Thread starter Cosmonaut X
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Unless you are PA, right? :/
Exactly.
It's like saying the people at Giant Bomb aren't journalists because they don't pump out 9000 news stories a day like IGN. They pick what they think is important and do their own thing and it's why i love GB and RPS. They don't back up a dump truck full of worthless articles a day to get hits and they don't result in yellow journalism like some "game" sites out there.
Good on RPS, the site is fantastic, the people are great and there is nothing wrong taking a stance.
No, no it's not.
Simply not going to their website or talking about them IS boycotting. There are plenty of well known internet boycotts like the GoDaddy.
Hari Seldon
Member
I don't understand this myself. Just a bunch of dork comics. Who gives a shit what they fucking tweet or do or what color their poo is? People need to lay off this gaming culture "personality" bullshit. Either you make a game I want to play or you are some blowhard who I give two fucks about.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
If only there was some kind of alternative where one side doesn't have to be villainised and boycotted and where calm and rational inclusionist discussion could take place.
Away from 120 character heatseekers.
At some kind of convention where we all have something in common.
The thing is they never wanted to be industry leaders. They just wanted to give a forum to people that other places (like E3 or even TGS) could not. That's it. They just thought it'd be a cool thing to do for people, like Child's Play.
Yes, I have done. Grayson's article seemed pretty balanced to me - a lot of the people he spoke to talked about how important ATTENDING PAX is to them.
Ah yes, another one his famous 'apologies' - forgive me if I don't take that one seriously either.
Well when you actually think about it they are picking and choosing a thing to get outraged over and to hold that up higher than many of the other problematic things companies do. Why is discrimination of a certain group of people a bigger deal than blood diamonds?
This is why boycotts are silly in general. You basically have to pick and choose something to hold up over everything else in importance. Explain to me why Chic-fil-a's discrimination against gays is a bigger deal than Nike (or anyone else) using sweatshops that force underage people to work ruthless hours. I'll tell you why, because it's likely easier to avoid chic-fil-a than it is to avoid the majority of clothing manufacturers. Just like it's easier to avoid PAX, a minor event to most people, than it is to boycott major publishers over something worse and not cover any of their games on your site.
None of this is me saying you shouldn't care at all. But there are better ways to handle things than boycotts which only exposes yourself to hypocrisy.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Actually, RPS's stance teeters on the edge of yellow journalism as they are creating sensationalism by taking a stance instead of addressing the issue in op-eds and not one op-ed shutting down further coverage.
Move those goalposts! RUN! Because if RPS won't talk about something, nobody can.
I hope that's not me you are referring to as trollish.
That is some nihilistic bullshit man. Everybody doesn't have to car equally about everything, and everything is not as easy to take action over, that doesn't mean there is no reason to take easy actions.
The thing is, after each 'joke' that was made, other communities have attacked with knee-jerk reactions which then caused Mike to attack with an equally ignorant knee-jerk reaction.
At the end of the day, he does not mean ill will toward anyone else. I found it extremely ignorant of the transgender points he made. In a situation like that, it would have been nice for someone of that community to explain it to him - he even admitted to not thinking about to that way.
Both the dickwolves and transgender issues caused communities to spout their own derogatory knee-jerk reactions.
And that's the problem with the internet. We are quick to be mean and angry instead of being rational and informative.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Its not my fault if you can't understand the game we were playing right from the start.
Yep. Once again, if only there was a huge convention where likeminded people could discuss things and open each others minds without having to fit it all into 120 characters. There is!? Boycott it immediately.
The article doesn't even mention the apology and frankly I didn't find it to be half hearted at all.
I think RPS has started to fall down the trap of seeing MONSTERS THAT MUST BE SLAYED everywhere they turn and are getting a hero complex of being the only website THAT DOES THE RIGHT THING.
Nothing excuses the incredibly poor, one sided reporting that this article represents.
bishopcruz
Member
I never quite got the outrage over the comments he made. Which I saw as neither bigoted, nor mean spirited. Primarily because gender is such a fluid concept especially in the LGBT community, and in life for a lot of people. That he mentioned his opinion that there IS a physical aspect to gender made him a horrible person apparently? What he said was not even that far out there. Without a specific understanding of Trans gender identity it's a fairly easy comment to make. I mean, without a physical gender, wouldn't the whole conecpt of Transgender not even need to exist? Even if you take that away, what was said was barely combative, especially when compared to general internet twitter warfare.
Of course, no one ever talks about how these guys treat said minorities, which in the emails released on the issue seem to show them treating their transgendered employee (I THINK it was an employee) with respect. I saw no evidence of bullying, or anything else that could be objectionable treatment of LGBTs at all. If there is evidence of this please, show me I am all ears.
I think the issue is that RPS had already come to the conclusion that they didn't like these guys, and this whole thing screams like an excuse to make it public. They are playing as holier than thou, and it does make me think less of the site as a whole. Instead of continuing a discussion, they are basically taking their ball and going home. Silly, and a bit of a shame.
I agree - I think boycotts in general are a dangerous area, simply because you invite "well why haven't you boycotted THIS" argument into play.
Interfectum
Gold Member
This has been a recent thing with them. Well they had some users with common sense(pic related) but i guess it'll be dwindling from here on out.
Exactly.
They boycott PAX because one of the founders is a bit of an asshat at times yet they'll go to and support E3 and the rest where likely NONE of the above talks will happen. Brilliant!
Yawn. If you don't want to discuss your outrage, don't post about it.
Again, RPS can still talk about the issues, PAX will still have those panels, stop crying about it with your faux outrage.
Hari Seldon
Member
RPS aren't journalists at all. 60 minutes interviewed fucking Bashar al-Assad. RPS won't attend an event because someone there ruffled some jimmies on twitter.
And yet Grayson talks about the majority of those talks in his piece, and also the people behind them.
I think it's really cool that there's stuff like this going on there but it doesn't change the fact Mike can get up on stage and get cheered on for being an asshole.This has been a recent thing with them. Well they had some users with common sense(pic related) but i guess it'll be dwindling from here on out.
How is their boycotting resulting into yellow journalism? Are they creating little or no legitimate well-researched news articles? They are simply boycotting PAX, there is nothing sensational about that, they are taking a stance and there is nothing wrong with it.
You want a prime example of yellow journalism go to Kotaku.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Would've been the better and measured approach. It's too bad they missed the opportunity to engage in it with some journalistic integrity.
E3 is a trade show, not a convention.
You even know what yellow journalism is?
And seriously the shitting on the complete mea culpa that Mike posted is always incredibly distrubing.
Dude has mental health issues that he has struggled with his whole life and he has been incredibly courageous in being open about them and how he copes with them day to day. He brings those challenges up as a part of his apology and internet tough guys on here are attacking him as 'half-hearted'?
Who's being the bully here?
Dude has mental health issues that he has struggled with his whole life and he has been incredibly courageous in being open about them and how he copes with them day to day. He brings those challenges up as a part of his apology and internet tough guys on here are attacking him as 'half-hearted'?
Who's being the bully here?
28 Posts Later
Member
Nice, attack an imaginary argument whilst ignoring the point raised.
It's a difficult issue for RPS to address, because whilst the quoted is [probably, I haven't checked] true RPS clearly don't want to be seen as supporting the comments made by the convention runners. It's really a matter of which makes the louder statement. Obviously RPS believe this course of action does.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Because the act of pronouncing an end to coverage and taking a stance against an organization is sensationalism which is a direct definition of yellow journalism. I also didn't say they are actively engage din it but teetering on the edge with it. It's just too bad a well-respected news organization is doing this.
this. fucking this. it's not like they're even leading the charge on piling on PA over how much of an idiot Mike is. this has been going on for a while now, so it's basically just a "me too!"
Chairmanchuck
Member
Every time someone made a joke about a German I should feel offended, right?
People still get offended about every little thing nowadays and thanks to the internet you have defense-groups for everything. I mean you have obese people talking about "thin privilege" and want some "chubby" people in their videogames.
A joke is a joke.
An opinion an opinion.
If someone from PAX is thinking "I think women have vaginas", then thats his opinion. Nothing else.
If RPS wants to boycott coverin PAX, they can also do it. Its their website and they can do whatever they want.
My opinion is though, that too many people get offended by the smallest things nowadays...
People still get offended about every little thing nowadays and thanks to the internet you have defense-groups for everything. I mean you have obese people talking about "thin privilege" and want some "chubby" people in their videogames.
A joke is a joke.
An opinion an opinion.
If someone from PAX is thinking "I think women have vaginas", then thats his opinion. Nothing else.
If RPS wants to boycott coverin PAX, they can also do it. Its their website and they can do whatever they want.
My opinion is though, that too many people get offended by the smallest things nowadays...
Not everyone who has mental health issues says bigoted bullshit.
staticneuron
Member
Difference between expression and action (type of expression) doesn't seem to be understood. Talking about the incident and providing opinions and points-of-view are a different type. Boycotting is an action.
Our law in the states recognize this as well. Some guy expressing himself by "saying" he hates (insert gender/orientation/belief/race here) is protected because it is speech. For him to use that as motivation for action, is something else entirely.
Now there is nothing illegal about boycotting but some people being of the opinion that boycotting is a step to far is an opinion they can hold without actually making an argument about expression it is just saying that "type" of expression may be flawed.
-----> gabes posts? http://i.imgur.com/bzVI5Di.png
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/06/19/twiiter-sucks-sometimes
From what little I gathered from that he isn't wrong really. That is how society defines males and females and it is objective.
Transgender is about what people choose to identify themselves as and it is subjective. In his email response he points out he will treat people how ever they present themselves to him (most people with normal social skills should) but nothing is really going to change the ingrained classifications people have put on gender because it really is fact based and not emotion based.
Yeah most of this stuff happened months and years ago and the article lacks any semblance of comment from the other side including the apologies that came from PA. I don't want 'unbiased objectivity' from news sources, that's not possible, but there's no excuse for this kind of distorted coverage.
A non illegal action is expression. Sorry.
That's some pretty loaded and disingenuous phrasing.
"If our friends at Rock, Paper, Shotgun would like to publish articles about how to molest children, that's totally their right!"
Also, they splint an infinitive. Stop bullying verbs, RPS!
Re: people confused over the dickwolves incident and what it was a problem:
The original comic absolutely was bit a problem inherent. That's what people so often miss. It's not that they did that comic. It's not that they didn't apologise (never apologise for your art). It's how they handled the aftermath, merchandising the dickwolves concept, thus turning it into something genuinely sinister, how they were complicit in the abuse of rape victims, critica, and their families online during the fallout, and how they decided things had only gone too far when their own families were insulted (because the families of their critics are fair game).
That's the dickwolves incident - not the comic, but the after-comic.
The original comic absolutely was bit a problem inherent. That's what people so often miss. It's not that they did that comic. It's not that they didn't apologise (never apologise for your art). It's how they handled the aftermath, merchandising the dickwolves concept, thus turning it into something genuinely sinister, how they were complicit in the abuse of rape victims, critica, and their families online during the fallout, and how they decided things had only gone too far when their own families were insulted (because the families of their critics are fair game).
That's the dickwolves incident - not the comic, but the after-comic.
Confused Cheeseburger
Member
There's a nice crop of reductionist arguments growing up and down this here thread.
Prime crotch
Banned
Ok, but, so what? They've built PAX to be that kind of community, just let go, I think their biggest issue was trying to make PAX inclusive when honestly it never was.
What the hell are you talking about.
What are you even saying? No seriously Is your point " people think a thing so it cant be bad" are you kidding me ?
Jokes can be terrible
Opinions can be bigoted, what is small to you is big to others.
Seriously what were you even trying to contribute?
Seriously the only thing that I can see in this latest "HOW HORRIBLE IS PA BURN THEM IN EFFIGY" incident that actually happened is that Mike from PA was confused about the difference between 'sex' (biology) and 'gender' (personal identify) which is an incredibly easy thing to mix up if you're not familiar with transgenderism and that is it.
Instead of calmly starting a discussion like Sophie did and highlighting that, people on twitter went into screaming lynch mode that caused Mike to respond similarly.
RPS is just joining in months later. HOW BRAVE.
Instead of calmly starting a discussion like Sophie did and highlighting that, people on twitter went into screaming lynch mode that caused Mike to respond similarly.
RPS is just joining in months later. HOW BRAVE.
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
The one thing I've learned about boycotts over the past year (Phil Fish, PAX, etc) is that people fucking suck at boycotting. They either end up supporting what they said they'd boycott anyways or they're so stupid, lazy and nearsighted that their boycott only applies to that one thing and they have trouble applying it to everything else that may have breached their "boycott threshold". You either support someone for what they say or you don't. There's no in between where you boycott for negative behaviour but don't support when someone does something positive or bat an eye whenever you feel like it. I'm glad that Rock, Paper, Shotgun has decided to boycott Penny Arcade but I hope they are smart enough guys to apply the "boycott for bad behaviour" rule to other things that they find to be deplorable as well.
Nothing like good honest discourse to make a thread awesome.
They're both being stupid.
John for going down the #racism/#sexism/#transphobia path (which while noble, doesn't need to be 24/7 "news" coverage), Mike for being an idiot and not understanding while people like John and others get offended by his comments.
The whole debacle is a, to quote an old GAF meme, carnival of stupid.
And why can't PAX be inclusive? It's an "all-ages/all-people" sort of event.
If they don't want that, they should drill it down and make it more focused.
Though, to be honest, the number of people going "WHY DOES GAY PEOPLE NEED THEIR OWN CONVENTION" in the gaymers convention thread a month or so back just shows that maybe that's the best route for PAX to take: Go "if you aren't a straight white male, we don't want you."
voodoopanda
Member
From what I've followed of the Gabe/PA thing, it seems like he has a cycle of doing something, apologizing, then doing the same thing again later, and apologizing again. It makes his apologies feel less genuine. These actions have piled up over the years until it hit a breaking point with certain people/organizations.
this
people aren't just rejecting his apology for no reason, they're rejecting it because this ALWAYS HAPPENS. he says something offensive, gets called out on it, doubles down and goes into extra super asshole mode, the entire world comes down on him for it, he posts a non-apology of the "i'm sorry if you were offended (but i don't really want to make an effort to understand why)", rinse and repeat
bishopcruz
Member
So fucking what? He got cheered for the Dickwolves thing, something that the community as a whole got behind because they saw it as an unfair attack on the comic and it's creators. The controversy WAS overblown, and it apparently still is. PAX as a whole is showing signs each year of being more inclusive, but because some people there don't match a golden standard the whole convention isn't worth covering? Horseshit.
The best part is when RPS said it wasn't about the dickwolves thing, when in the article they pretty much said it was about the dickwolves thing. Brilliant.
It's time to stop being so defensive. If you're comfortable with what and who you are, you can certainly take some MMO RPG jokes without being offended.
And yes, "women have vaginas" is a a simplified, yet a perfectly valid way to view the world in which 99,9999% of time it is true.
It is good to be aware that there are exceptions, but forcing someone else to accommodate for an infinitesimal number of special cases seems outright idiotic.
Cars have four wheels, houses have roofs, guns use bullets, Ferraris are red etc etc. None of them are true for ALL cases, but they are true for 99,9999% of time and therefore we don't need to get offended or even give a second thought to why people say so.
And yes, "women have vaginas" is a a simplified, yet a perfectly valid way to view the world in which 99,9999% of time it is true.
It is good to be aware that there are exceptions, but forcing someone else to accommodate for an infinitesimal number of special cases seems outright idiotic.
Cars have four wheels, houses have roofs, guns use bullets, Ferraris are red etc etc. None of them are true for ALL cases, but they are true for 99,9999% of time and therefore we don't need to get offended or even give a second thought to why people say so.
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