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[T'Zariah]

It's almost hard NOT to be condescending when discussing how bad FF8's storyline is. It's one of those games where merely admitting you think it is good is enough to dismiss your entire perspective re: videogame stories.

I'm not saying it's good, merely that to put it on the level of the convoluted FFVII, which is Assassin's Creed terrible, with an entire compilation of plot holes!

 

[Aeana]

FFVIII isn't merely worse than FFVII/FFX. It's probably the worst RPG storyline of all fucking time. Worse than Paladin's Quest. It has plot holes the size of fucking planets. Writing so painful that Twilight compares favorably.

Well.. in Tales of Rebirth,

Spoiler

the villain casts a spell on the world that turns everyone racist.

That has to put it in the running here.

 

[BlueTsunami]

The only thing this show's is that the dialogue of XII is ok.

I'm sorry but that's the understatement of the year. Relative to other Final Fantasies the thing is a masterpiece. Absolutely no amount of cut scene time is devoted to waxing poetic about their inner feelings. They talk like humans (of their period) instead of an overly romantic scenario/dialog writer.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm not saying it's good, merely that to put it on the level of the convoluted FFVII, which is Assassin's Creed terrible, with an entire compilation of plot holes!

It is easily worse than FFVII. Because at least FFVII was just trying to be a prototypical save the world jRPG. FFVIII wanted to be a embarrassing teen drama married to a end-of-the-world jRPG, and it came off so immature that it's literally painful. Like, I can hear brain cells fizzling away as I play it.

Plus, I'm sorry, but FFVIII has more plot holes than FFVII ever did. FFVII has plot holes, plenty of 'em, but the main story is fairly routine. I could recite the outline with a fair degree of accuracy.

With FFVIII, I couldn't even begin to tie all the plot lines into a coherent structure. It's all over the goddamn place.

 

[Amir0x]

Well.. in Tales of Rebirth,

Spoiler

the villain casts a spell on the world that turns everyone racist.

That has to put it in the running here.

That never came to the USA, did it? That sounds hilariously bad.

 

[Reknoc]

Well.. in Tales of Rebirth,

Spoiler

the villain casts a spell on the world that turns everyone racist.

That has to put it in the running here.

That sounds amazing.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I'm not saying it's good, merely that to put it on the level of the convoluted FFVII, which is Assassin's Creed terrible, with an entire compilation of plot holes!

If you have terrible characters then you have a bad story/plot from the get go. FFVII at the very least had Cloud, Vincent, Red XIII and Sephiroth to bear with.

FFVIII was doomed from the start. Doesn't help that the plot goes nowhere. Ever. The love story between Rinoa and Sqaull made me want to gouge my eyes out

 

[The Xtortionist]

In FF8's defense, hammering X through dialogue and subsequently breaking the game via Triple Triad can provide some entertainment.

I'd honestly rather do that than play FFX with its long, unskippable cutscenes *shivers*.

 

[Emitan]

Well.. in Tales of Rebirth,

Spoiler

the villain casts a spell on the world that turns everyone racist.

That has to put it in the running here.

That sounds like the best plot ever. Unless it was taking itself seriously. Then WTF mate?

 

[King of the Potato People]

It’s an achievement no doubt, in terms of scope and being a seamless world. My only gripe is it takes itself a little too seriously. I preferred the more leisurely pace of Final Fantasy IX (my favourite). At anytime the endeavour to defeat all the monsters could be stopped, and instead there was Chocobo hot and cold to play, an auction or Tetra Master to participate in.

My perfect Final Fantasy would have a protagonist as developed as Cecil from IV, a cast as varied as VI, as much mystery as VII, set pieces as stunning as VIII, as much charm as IX, an enemy as threatening as Sin from FF X, as much exploration as XII and for the battles to be as sleek as XIII.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I'm sorry but that's the understatement of the year. Relative to other Final Fantasies the thing is a masterpiece. Absolutely no amount of cut scene time is devoted to waxing poetic about their inner feelings. They talk like humans (of their period) instead of an overly romantic scenario/dialog writer.

But that's a problem. These people are underdeveloped and even it has good writing, it's character development is poor.

There's an obvious arc about Van that's supposed to be about him growing up and gaining a more realistic view of the world. Whatever he just kind of dispersers in the plot anyway. He could have used a few more cutscenes, not him talking about his inner feelings, but talking with say Bash about his family or something. The other characters are also equally pointless. Penelo might as well not even be in the game. Fran is just there. Balthier is cool, but that's really it.

Ashe is pretty much the only character that has worthwhile development.

 

[Amir0x]

No matter what, FFXII's writing is the best and most consistent of the series, therefore it has the best storyline in a series that has nothing but bad everything stories. But this is low praise indeed so I'd much rather talk about the various gameplay between titles, which is quite good in many FF games.

Talking about the storyline is frustrating, especially when FFXII enters into it because it's so much missed potential there...so close to getting competent...

 

[Emitan]

Vaan's arc not finishing is a good thing. It means he has less screen time because he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. He was just shoehorned in for marketing purposes. I'd rather they just dump him instead of trying to make him an interesting character.

 

[Zakkath]

Overall: This is pretty much the best Final Fantasy game ever made. I feel like, as good as VII was, THIS should've gotten the compilation that VII got. Or hell even both if it was financially possible. Great characters, decent story, absolutely fantastic gameplay that still holds up, and it really does put next Gen to shame.....on BOTH sides of the ocean.

Totally agree. I really liked FF12. It's up there with FF6 and 7 for me. I'd add exploration to the high points of the game. FF12 allowed exploration and there were some good rewards for players who chose to invest time with the side-quests and exploring areas of the game that they wouldn't go through while following strictly the main storyline.

The combats were great too, but needed some balancing. Casters were always OOM and I felt like I was better served using melee characters. Although FF13 combats were good (it was unfortunatly the only good thing about the game though), I would they would have improved upon FF12's.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Vaan's arc not finishing is a good thing. It means he has less screen time because he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. He was just shoehorned in for marketing purposes. I'd rather they just dump him instead of trying to make him an interesting character.

When are people going to stop spreading this when we know it's not true?

Matsuno had Vaan in the game, he just wasn't as we know him exactly he switched up his role to something else, but the fact is Vaan was going to be in the game.

 

[rataven]

XII is such a refreshing gameplay experience. And while the story did fizzle a bit and a few cast members were questionable inclusions, I really enjoyed the overall package. But then, I've enjoyed every FF with the exception of (speak of the devil) VIII.

I'll also echo the HD International rerelease sentiments. I would love to play that version.

 

[BanditKing]

Vayne Solidar was a great villian with his might makes right attitude.

All hail the dynastking.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I never understood the criticisms about FFXII's story apart from the speed of the whole (end game spoilers)

Spoiler

destroy Sun Cryst -> Bahamut appears -> Vayne and Venat merge -> the end

. Maybe because it treated the audience with an modicum of intelligence and didn't feel the need to beat people around the head with characters voicing their feelings and motivations every 20 minutes.

General pacing issues(long stretches of game where nothing really happens).

Basch's arc getting mostly shoved to the side since he was no longer the main character.

Fran felt underused, while Penelo and Vaan(even with his influence on Ashe) felt superfluous. If anything the latter two should have been combined to for a single character that uses Penelo's character model.

Occuria plot felt like a massive loose end.

Watanabe wrote parts of it, forever dooming it into an abyss of meh. If anything we should be thankful this is an unfinished Matsuno story, rather than a complete Watanabe story.

 

[Squall5042]

I completely agree with the OP. Best battle system I've ever encountered in a jrpg. Music is spectacular.

Also, I think I'm nearly alone in my quite liking of Fran. Loved the accent and dialect.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

9 and 12 are my favorites in the series.

As other people have mentioned, the battles, graphics, and exploration were great. The story is middle of the road.

For all the people saying they should make an HD remake, check out the pcsx2 thread.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

People complain about Venat and the rest of those ghosty beings, whatever they were, but they forget about the mystical bullshit that was in Vagrant Story and Tactics, especially Tactics.

What was wrong with the magic in Vagrant Story?

 

[Proposed Law]

Basch, Balthier and Fran are my favorite characters in the Final Fantasy series. Infact this was my favorite crew, except for Vaan. Too bad Lighting wasn't in Vaan's place instead, but I guess I wouldn't have played 13 then.

 

[sky]

Yes, it is the best!

So refined in all areas, and the battle system is sublime.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I think this one might be my favourite too, on balance. It's hard to compare it with the impact some of the earlier ones had, but if I had to go back and play one again it would be XII.

 

[Neki]

I always struggled with some of the bosses in this game. I only beat some of them by Quickening spam before they could touch me. Like the 5 Mandragoras, those guys were tough for some reason. Does that mean I was just underleveled or something?

 

[LegendOfGood]

I'm playing XIII right now. Doesn't even compare

I miss XII!

 

[Aeana]

I always struggled with some of the bosses in this game. I only beat some of them by Quickening spam before they could touch me. Like the 5 Mandragoras, those guys were tough for some reason. Does that mean I was just underleveled or something?

Maybe. I mean, I never use those things because I'm bad at them and never hit any big roadblocks. On the other hand, I discovered the imbalance of berserk (+ haste) early on my very first playthrough, so that could have something to do with it.

 

[Duderz]

Vaan's arc not finishing is a good thing. It means he has less screen time because he shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. He was just shoehorned in for marketing purposes. I'd rather they just dump him instead of trying to make him an interesting character.

Really though, outside of the opening sequence and the ending, Vaan isn't important to the story at all, and even in cutscenes he and Penelo pretty much vanish while Basch and Ashe take center stage.

 

[computers putin']

I LOVED the first 60-70 percent of the game, but then I became so disinterested in the game so suddenly and just dropped the game altogether. every time I try and pick up the game and finish it I realize I don't know where I am in terms of stories and what sidequest I have to do, and I just get overwhelmed and drop it all over again. One day I'ma have to start a new game and finish it.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Really though, outside of the opening sequence and the ending, Vaan isn't important to the story at all, and even in cutscenes he and Penelo pretty much vanish while Basch and Ashe take center stage.

This isn't the case though. Basch actually hardly talks.

It's true of Ashe, but after you get Basch he actually fades into the background even more so then Vaan. Vaan does alot, while the story isn't centered around him he does do things, he is one of the ways the show the Player the connection to the Myst, as well as his actions with the Shards.

Basch just kind stands around alot of time and maybe puts in a word or two, even during his brothers own death he doesn't do all that much.

Not to mention it's not like you get him in the first hour. Taking a centering things around Basch are not as simple as people make it out, the entire first 3/4 hours of the game including alot of "good" Baltheir moments would have to be cut to even make so it was possible.

 

[ampere]

I'd LOVE to hear your justification for that last statement. There is no way on God's green earth that FFVIII's story is worse than FFVII and X. Come the fuck on.

TIME KOMPRESSION

:lol

I feel like FFVIII had the 'love plot' written, and then a story was attempted to be molded around it

And it didn't work out so well

 

[Ra1den]

Yup, FFXII has the best gameplay of any of the FFs. Perfect battle system. More involving than any of the prior entries due to your control of the character movement, yet not tedious like a hack and slash.

I absolutely adore the art direction also. Cutscenes were top-notch, wonderfully directed. The only weak point is that there is not as much character personality development as in some of the prior entries (particularly compared to ones that excelled in this regard like 7, 8, and 10).

I was enjoying myself every single moment I played this, the exploration, the beauty of the world,the intense boss battles...just pure joy.

I'm looking forward to a replay sometime...not sure if I want to play the International Zodiac version since the game was not originally designed with that mechanic in mind.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Taking a centering things around Basch are not as simple as people make it out

Changing the main character to a completely different persion requires a lot of revision? If only someone had told SE that before they revoked Basch's protagonist status.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Changing the main character to a completely different persion requires a lot of revision? If only someone had told SE that before they revoked Basch's protagonist status.

That wasn't my choice.

However to change things when it did is likely easier then now, we know it happened early in development given Vaan has been the face of XII since it's very first reveal.

As it stands the game is completed and their are huge sections that can't even be accounted for with Basch in that role, so to just put him their no longer makes sense.

 

[RedSwirl]

Story-wise it's as if FFXII during development was shaping up to be more like a WRPG that would appeal to older audiences, but then Square noticed and said "Waitaminute! This is Final Fantasy!," and tried to turn the story back around into a more traditional FF, so what we got was halfway in-between.

Really all of Matsuno's games seem to be more heavily influenced by WRPGs than by Dragon Quest. In interviews he even admits that he still logs into Ultima once a year. Honestly a lot of my favorite RPGs have been ones that are Japanese but influenced by WRPGs like this or Demon's Souls. That's a good sign for FFXIII-2 and Dragon's Crown.

The problem is, I'm not sure if Matsuno was ever meant to make a full mainline FF game. I don't think SE would have ever given him complete control over one. Ironically, he's probably the one director who could best make their games appeal to the west.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

That wasn't my choice.

You work at SE?

However to change things when it did is likely easier then now, we know it happened early in development given Vaan has been the face of XII since it's very first reveal.

We're not sure when it happened because Vaan(despite having no role in the story at that point) was one of the first things Yoshida drew.

As it stands the game is completed and their are huge sections that can't even be accounted for with Basch in that role, so to just put him their no longer makes sense.

I'm.... not even sure what you are trying to say. That changing the protagonist again after the game was completed wouldn't have ended well? I don't see where that's being contested.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Story-wise it's as if FFXII during development was shaping up to be more like a WRPG that would appeal to older audiences, but then Square noticed and said "Waitaminute! This is Final Fantasy!," and tried to turn the story back around into a more traditional FF, so what we got was halfway in-between.

Really all of Matsuno's games seem to be more heavily influenced by WRPGs than by Dragon Quest. In interviews he even admits that he still logs into Ultima once a year. Honestly a lot of my favorite RPGs have been ones that are Japanese but influenced by WRPGs like this or Demon's Souls. That's a good sign for FFXIII-2 and Dragon's Crown.

The problem is, I'm not sure if Matsuno was ever meant to make a full mainline FF game. I don't think SE would have ever given him complete control over one. Ironically, he's probably the one director who could best make their games appeal to the west.

Right now I think their best bet is to get a director who can handle making a FF and not break down.

Regardless of what exactly went down with Matsuno, we have had two directors in a row run into major issues and both pretty much admit they couldn't handle the pressure.

Now it's certainly argueable that this alone is a bad sign, but until they get someone who can actually lead a large team and not crack they are going to have fuck ups.

I guess Nomura is the cloest they have with him doing KH, and if VS turns out well. However didn't he already say a year or two ago that VS will be his first and last mainline FF game?

 

[Beth Cyra]

You work at SE?



We're not sure when it happened because Vaan(despite having no role in the story at that point) was one of the first things Yoshida drew.



I'm.... not even sure what you are trying to say. That changing the protagonist again after the game was completed wouldn't have ended well? I don't see where that's being contested.

I'm not speaking directly to you.

My point is that everyone saying it would be better with Basch isn't taking into account that would only work from the beginning and XII would very much be different.

We have a large segement at the beginning, which introduces Balthier who is the fan favorite and he has some great moments, these would simpy be gone or at the very least changed in a major way if Basch was the main character.

I mean hell, think of the changes this would bring. What about the relationship between Basch and his brother? Does that stay? If it does does he still get locked up? If so then why would Balthier even be there? As it stands he only really gets caught because Vaan screws up his plans.

I take issue with everyone who says they love XII but wishes Basche was the main character, that one change would change the entire scope and timeline of the game.

 

[Raitosaito]

I agree heartily sir and will drink to this with much glee

i would take exception to to the "put next gen to shame on both sides of the ocean"; clearly not the case. But it definitely is the best FF game. No ran battles, finally solves the problem of forcing you to play repetitious meat bags for 99.9% of all battles, unlimited control over how you want to play - as much or as little input as you like - and the gambit system is the most innovative approach to ally A.I. in Japanese RPG history. With a little tinkering it would be the gold standard, period. Oh and it's one of the only modern FFs without a completely grotesque art style, MMO's aside.

As always, it's about control. And the more control a game gives me, the more I like it.

Something Amir0x states that I actually agree with?

Old Square, you are God.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Right now I think their best bet is to get a director who can handle making a FF and not break down.

Regardless of what exactly went down with Matsuno, we have had two directors in a row run into major issues and both pretty much admit they couldn't handle the pressure.

Now it's certainly argueable that this alone is a bad sign, but until they get someone who can actually lead a large team and not crack they are going to have fuck ups.

I guess Nomura is the cloest they have with him doing KH, and if VS turns out well. However didn't he already say a year or two ago that VS will be his first and last mainline FF game?

Preeeeeeetty sure the main problem with both projects was bad management.

XII was in flux, had three separate directors(only Ito stayed on for the entire development of the game).

XIII didn't even have any sort of consistent direction until after they made the ACC demo.

 

[BlueWord]

My favorite Final Fantasy, for sure. It's too bad the plot sort of fizzles out near the end, but the game has so much depth, you can find other things to fill the gap.

Hopefully the inevitable HD rerelease has the IZJS included.

 

[CurseoftheGods]

I completely agree with the OP. Best battle system I've ever encountered in a jrpg. Music is spectacular.

Also, I think I'm nearly alone in my quite liking of Fran. Loved the accent and dialect.

I loved Fran and the part of the game where you went back to her village.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

My point is that everyone saying it would be better with Basch isn't taking into account that would only work from the beginning and XII would very much be different.

Most people who say that mean "I wish they hadn't changed the main charatcer" not "I wished they changed the main character again".

 

[MechaX]

Vayne Solidar was a great villian with his might makes right attitude.

All hail the dynastking.

Personally I felt Vayne was lacking in comparison to Gabranth, Dr. Cid, Bergan, Ghis, etc.

But at the very least, he wasn't Barthandelus.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Most people who say that mean "I wish they hadn't changed the main charatcer" not "I wished they changed the main character again".

Well I can't see why, granted I liked the older more mature human being the lead but he wasn't exactly that likable to me and he was just as boring as Vaan was so can't say that would be an improvement for me.

 

[Let me in]

Story-wise it's as if FFXII during development was shaping up to be more like a WRPG that would appeal to older audiences, but then Square noticed and said "Waitaminute! This is Final Fantasy!," and tried to turn the story back around into a more traditional FF, so what we got was halfway in-between.

Thanks for codifying the feelings I've had about the game into a reasonable explanation. This is exactly what I think about the story.

I didn't mind the Occuria intervention because it wasn't overwhelming. But I enjoyed the political and historical elements of the story in the beginning much more than the fantastic ones towards the end. And that seems to be how my tastes are developing as I age.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Well I can't see why, granted I liked the older more mature human being the lead but he wasn't exactly that likable to me and he was just as boring as Vaan was so can't say that would be an improvement for me.

It's weird that you realize a change in main character would mean massive changes to the story, yet you don't consider the possibility of Basch being different or much more emphasized if he was the main character.

 

[Castor Krieg]

This was the first FF since VII I didn't finish. Was living in Japan at that time, got some hours in, put it away and never came back. Don't know why.

I guess I need to play this again. Should I go with vanilla or fan ZODIAC translation?

 

[MechaX]

This was the first FF since VII I didn't finish. Was living in Japan at that time, got some hours in, put it away and never came back. Don't know why.

I guess I need to play this again. Should I go with vanilla or fan ZODIAC translation?

If you're going to do it all over again, just go Zodiac Fan Translation.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I guess I need to play this again. Should I go with vanilla or fan ZODIAC translation?

Zodiac.