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[strange headache]

I didn't say he was guilty of anything. I said I had doubts. Massive difference.

Insinuating that Avellone is just "another disgruntled employee" in order to discredit the truth behind his factual correct statements is the very definition of "spinning a narrative" and putting the guilt on him. Also he wasn't the one "burning bridges", he left for good reasons! If even half of that is true, Obsidian is a bucket of crabs and management over there is frikkin' atrocious. So where are your doubts concerning Obsidian's management then?

There are probably good reasons why these other devs left too. Yet here you are, pointing the finger at Avellone instead of Obsidian's internal mismanagement.

 

[Topher]

Yet here you are, pointing the finger at Avellone instead of Obsidian's internal mismanagement.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Sea of thieves got 69 on Metacritic.....wow did not know this. Goes to show how irrelevant Metacritic is. Glad I stopped reading mainstream gaming press.

It launched in a very bad situation. No content and bugs. But it got improved quite well after a year or so.

 

[KAL2006]

I dont recall the nominees the past gen do you? Its also not something reserved for games that are long running franchises without a reboot.

I was giving an example. Not cherry picking dude. Him cherry picking events from the past 10 years is what i call bullshit. Whats next? is he going to give 10 reasons why he thinks ms is getting out of the console biz too? Its bullshit to ignore the NOW in reasoning going forward.

You arent being objective if you ignore that they are handling studios different NOW then they did in the past. They are doing nearly everything differently. MS as a company made huge changes after Ballmer retired. Using past reference literally means nothing.

Plastic box or not, you and a few others are ignoring recent "wins" in favour of trying to prove it not being real based on past events. Don't tell me about objectivity dude. I think you have none in this thread. No offense.

Talk about ignoring my post completely. I am talking about recent wins. Microsoft haven't had many recent wins, last year's GotY nominees, year before etc. It's okay to be cautious as they haven't delivered a packaged game that's a GotY nominee along time. We have had promises before which failed. I even went one by one and analysed each upcoming game that they are hyping with a rationale why you need to be cautious.

Starfield - Fallout 4 and 76 wasn't all that
Halo Infinite - Campaign showing didn't impress, Halo 4, 5 and MCC didnt really live up to the hype
Fable - Fable 3 wasn't that great, Legends got cancelled and now this is made by a team that haven't made a RPG, also we only have a CG trailer
Avowed - another CG trailer
Everwild - Devs have confirmed they haven't even come up with a gameplay concept yet

I've analysed everything and all I'm saying is don't buy something based on promises. If the developer made a decent game in the same genre that was highly praised then it's fine to trust the developer.

 

[abacab driver]

Talk about ignoring my post completely. I am talking about recent wins. Microsoft haven't had many recent wins, last year's GotY nominees, year before etc. It's okay to be cautious as they haven't delivered a packaged game that's a GotY nominee along time.

No GOTY nominees in forever, huh?

That's funny because Doom Eternal was up for GOTY at last years game awards...and The Outer Worlds was nominated for GOTY, the year before that.
(And btw, is that the only nomination you consider noteworthy?)

LET ME GUESS..you're going to reply: "...Well..Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they released (even though you probably attribute Spidermans success to Sony)! For all we know, Microsoft may just force them to make Kinect games like Rare..or simply cancel it like Fable Legends and Scalebound 5 years ago last generation!"

Sure thing, buddy.

 

[KAL2006]

No GOTY nominees in forever, huh?

That's funny because Doom Eternal was up for GOTY at last years game awards...and The Outer Worlds was nominated for GOTY, the year before that.
(And btw, is that the only nomination you consider noteworthy?)

LET ME GUESS..you're going to reply: "...Well..Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they released (even though you probably attribute Spidermans success to Sony)! For all we know, Microsoft may just force them to make Kinect games like Rare..or simply cancel it like Fable Legends and Scalebound 5 years ago last generation!"

Sure thing, buddy.

Okay I give up, it's fine Microsoft will hype up games that are way off with a CG trailer, with not even a gameplay concept ready.

We have had this shit pulled at us from both Sony and Microsoft. If say we got a new Doom announced which I'm sure will happen at some point then you can get hyped because Doom Eternal was decent prior to the new Doom being announced. It was the same shit with Killzone Shadowfall and inFamous Second Son, Killzone 3 and inFamous 2 were average at best so I didn't see the hype. However now that both developers have a game that's has been critically well regarded as well as great sales, if there was a Ghost of Tsushima 2 or Horizon 2 announced people will get hyped based on the previous entry.

So I'm judging the games Microsoft announced now. How can we get hyped when the previous entry of the game didn't sell as well or wasn't a critical darling.

Starfield, Halo Infinite, Fable Legends, Avowed, Everwild and etc are either CG trailers or had a bad showing how can people get hyped based in promisses. You need to actually deliver first then you will gain trust that's a normal thing.

 

[bender]

...and The Outer Worlds was nominated for GOTY, the year before that.

 

[Topher]

LET ME GUESS..you're going to reply: "...Well..Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they released (even though you probably attribute Spidermans success to Sony)! For all we know, Microsoft may just force them to make Kinect games like Rare..or simply cancel it like Fable Legends and Scalebound 5 years ago last generation!"

I mean.....it is factually true Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they were made. I guess you could make an argument for The Outer Worlds since MS bought Obsidian a year before the game released, but the game was already a committed multiplatform game. And yes, Spider-man was a Sony game just like Forza Horizon was a Microsoft game made by a studio MS hired. If you want to point to games in recent years that were nominated for GOTY then Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Forza Horizon 3/4 and Flight Simulator are a few.

 

[oldergamer]

I can say with 100% certainty that Microsoft absolutely does care about what score their games receive. How did you even cook up that conclusion in your head?

I would go as far as to say this is a top priority for Microsoft. They want highly acclaimed blockbusters, they just haven’t figured out how to do this yet. Buying up studios may or may not solve this problem.

Howd i cook it up? If you have paid literally any attention to what the xbox team has said in the past few years, you'd know now they arent only looking for blockbuster AAA titles. They want to have games released every month on game pass. No publisher releases AAA games that often. Very difficult to innovate or find new AAA titles if you arent willing to risk something being AA.

 

[oldergamer]

Talk about ignoring my post completely. I am talking about recent wins. Microsoft haven't had many recent wins, last year's GotY nominees, year before etc. It's okay to be cautious as they haven't delivered a packaged game that's a GotY nominee along time. We have had promises before which failed. I even went one by one and analysed each upcoming game that they are hyping with a rationale why you need to be cautious.

Starfield - Fallout 4 and 76 wasn't all that
Halo Infinite - Campaign showing didn't impress, Halo 4, 5 and MCC didnt really live up to the hype
Fable - Fable 3 wasn't that great, Legends got cancelled and now this is made by a team that haven't made a RPG, also we only have a CG trailer
Avowed - another CG trailer
Everwild - Devs have confirmed they haven't even come up with a gameplay concept yet

I've analysed everything and all I'm saying is don't buy something based on promises. If the developer made a decent game in the same genre that was highly praised then it's fine to trust the developer.

Again another display of confirmation bias at work. half the games you listed havent been shown yet you think there is some kind of negative sentiment toward them? Not buying what you are selling. Sorry bro.

 

[abacab driver]

I mean.....it is factually true Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they were made. I guess you could make an argument for The Outer Worlds since MS bought Obsidian a year before the game released, but the game was already a committed multiplatform game. And yes, Spider-man was a Sony game just like Forza Horizon was a Microsoft game made by a studio MS hired. If you want to point to games in recent years that were nominated for GOTY then Ori and the Will of the Wisps, Forza Horizon 3/4 and Flight Simulator are a few.

Ori, Forza and Flight Sim were either genre specific or production value specific nominations. Still fantastic, dont get me wrong, but not the specified GOTY nomination this other guy tried to use as a point.

Also the point of me mentioning a potential argument that Doom Eternal and TOW2 "werent MS games" was to highlight that the developers develop the games, not the publisher..and GOTY nominees are a great indicator of quality (Fallout 4 being another nominee as well as 88 meta when it released), even when they aren't on your system of choice.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

People look into departures too much. I think it will be fine

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

LET ME GUESS..you're going to reply: "...Well..Doom and The Outer Worlds weren't Microsoft games when they released (even though you probably attribute Spidermans success to Sony)! For all we know, Microsoft may just force them to make Kinect games like Rare..or simply cancel it like Fable Legends and Scalebound 5 years ago last generation!"

Wierd comparison. Sony was as involved in Spiderman as any of their other first party games, so yeah its very much their success.

 

[KAL2006]

Again another display of confirmation bias at work. More the half the games you listed havent been shown yet you think there is some kind of negative sentiment toward them? Not buying what you are selling. Sorry bro.

It's your opinion and we are all entitled to our own I prefer to compare upcoming games based on previous sales and critical reception, and I prefer to be wary of buying a system where the games shown are very early or don't have a previous game by said developer that delivered on there game. For example I enjoyed God of War and Horizon, and I assume others did due to critical reception as well as sales, so the new ones that got announce I'm hyped for. However I cannot get hyped for Halo Infinite based on Halo 5 and 4, as well as the campaign, I can't compare hoe others feel because Microsoft didn't release sales data for Halo 5. I also can't get hyped for Everwild as I haven't seen gameplay and developers haven't given a more recent release date and stated they haven't decided on gameplay concept. I can't get hyped for Fable as there is no gameplay shown, and the last Fable game I didn't think was all that great, and according to sales data others felt the same. So let's agree to disagree I come to my conclusion based on how far out a game is, what was shown, the developers last game etc. That's what hype is to me. If Rockstar revealed GTA6 I'd get fucking hyped because it's a game I enjoyed with previous entries, and everyone else agrees based on sales data and critical reception.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Hey, maybe the game will be shit….
….maybe it won’t. I’m sure we all hope it won’t.
looks like some key peeps have left the studio though, that seems factual. Doesn’t mean the game will be bad though.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Microsoft needs to step up their NDA clauses and plug the leaks because damn, they've had enough dev leaks in one year to last a full generation.

I don't even know if this is true or not. I hope it isn't; if it is I hope it's just within the regular rate you'd see on otherwise healthy AAA projects from other studios. If it's more indicative of a managerial problem well the only thing that'd have changed much between pre-acquisition and post is Oblivion falling under Matt Booty's watch and, well, I still have my doubts on Booty's management and (more importantly) creative-encouraging/contributing qualities with all of these varied studios.

EDIT: I'm just reading through the thread now but I hope I don't see anyone using this as a way to argue "acquisitions BAD!" or imply Microsoft's acquisitions can only mean the worst, i.e exoduses and such. Because the only actual confirmed exoduses I've seen in relation to acquisitions the past few years have come from a couple of the Tencent ones.

Yeah, you know, Tencent? Remember Tencent? Remember Embracer Group? It's so funny when people (not saying anyone has done that so far, I still gotta catch up on the thread) zero in on Microsoft's acquisitions and claim it's rapid consolidation but never once speak up when Tencent and Embracer Group have made far more frequent purchases in an arguably shorter amount of time.

It's almost as if their arguments are never really about genuine concern over consolidation and acquisitions after all ...

 

[DavidGzz]

Hopefully they lost the guy that decided it was a first person game.

Amen. Look at Cyberpunk compared to TW3. All the proof we need that first person sucks, boys. I want to see my character in a game where I can customize him and outfit him. It's fucking common sense. Also, I like to see animations when in combat, especially in a medieval game.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

He regularly bitches about Obsidian on twitter, this is common knowledge.

That's a mountain of receipts if I ever saw one.

This is surprising because Avowed was the game that Obsidian really wanted to make. So the content/game isn't the issue, unless Xbox/Phil/Booty has changed the direction of the game that most of the studio didn't envision or like.

Either way, a sad story. We could have got a great game if Avowed was left alone (may still be a great game, but very rarely a troubled development leads to a fantastic game).

Why are you speaking about this as if it's a certainty? The rumor comes from a single person; if there were more validity to it you'd think we'd hear some subtle confirmations from other ex-employees or insiders, but there's only Chris's word and he may not have had the best of times when he was let go.

It's like the people who thought (or still think) Sony's 1P is going to be creatively bankrupt because of some of Shawn Layden's public thoughts. Not saying their word doesn't hold a sizable amount of weight, but you still need more than one source saying or hinting such a thing before buying it wholesale like it's a fact.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Well I think anyone familiar with how game development works knows that a lot of people leaves the studio after they finish their work in a project, so that's not a surprise but what Avellone said is that lead devs were leaving, not just some general stuff like "multiple animators are leaving Obsidian" and starts using linkedin as his proof, nothing like that. He's talking about some lead people that has been working in multiple games at Obsidian for years.

It sounds like these people are leaving during mid development of Avowed, I don't think the game is anywhere near completion

 

[Wrath of the Toomics]

Microsoft needs to step up their NDA clauses and plug the leaks because damn, they've had enough dev leaks in one year to last a full generation.

I don't even know if this is true or not.

It checks out on LinkedIn

It sounds like these people are leaving during mid development of Avowed, I don't think the game is anywhere near completion

Leads leaving during mid-development isn't a great sign, especially if they earned their new title of lead on that very game. I can't imagine going to a new studio, explaining you're a "lead" designer, and that you just quit the first title where you were a lead, it doesn't seem like that would go over well with any future employer. It almost suggests you'd do it again if given a lead role and you're not dependable, and you'd really have to argue why not.

I'd argue that it makes it even more telling if people left with a lead title that there was a larger problem, because it must have been so bad as to be totally not be worth it to stay and "finish" the game rather than suffer the embarrassing questions from other employers of why you quit mid-stream.

Wasn't there a lead artist too?

 

[Hobbygaming]

It checks out on LinkedIn


Leads leaving during mid-development isn't a great sign, especially if they earned their new title of lead on that very game. I can't imagine going to a new studio, explaining you're a "lead" designer, and that you just quit the first title where you were a lead, it doesn't seem like that would go over well with any future employer. It almost suggests you'd do it again if given a lead role and you're not dependable, and you'd really have to argue why not.

I'd argue that it makes it even more telling if people left with a lead title that there was a larger problem, because it must have been so bad as to be totally not be worth it to stay and "finish" the game rather than suffer the embarrassing questions from other employers of why you quit mid-stream.

Wasn't there a lead artist too?

Great points and yes i believe so! Time will tell whether this is development hell or a bigger problem within the organization

 

[tsumake]

Microsoft needs to step up their NDA clauses and plug the leaks because damn, they've had enough dev leaks in one year to last a full generation.

I don't even know if this is true or not. I hope it isn't; if it is I hope it's just within the regular rate you'd see on otherwise healthy AAA projects from other studios. If it's more indicative of a managerial problem well the only thing that'd have changed much between pre-acquisition and post is Oblivion falling under Matt Booty's watch and, well, I still have my doubts on Booty's management and (more importantly) creative-encouraging/contributing qualities with all of these varied studios.

EDIT: I'm just reading through the thread now but I hope I don't see anyone using this as a way to argue "acquisitions BAD!" or imply Microsoft's acquisitions can only mean the worst, i.e exoduses and such. Because the only actual confirmed exoduses I've seen in relation to acquisitions the past few years have come from a couple of the Tencent ones.

Yeah, you know, Tencent? Remember Tencent? Remember Embracer Group? It's so funny when people (not saying anyone has done that so far, I still gotta catch up on the thread) zero in on Microsoft's acquisitions and claim it's rapid consolidation but never once speak up when Tencent and Embracer Group have made far more frequent purchases in an arguably shorter amount of time.

It's almost as if their arguments are never really about genuine concern over consolidation and acquisitions after all ...

I think a lot of people are wary of Tencent’s acquisitions as well. I don’t think this is a Microsoft vs Sony (or Tencent) issue. It’s a concern of the future development of these game devs after acquisition.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Insinuating that Avellone is just "another disgruntled employee" in order to discredit the truth behind his factual correct statements is the very definition of "spinning a narrative" and putting the guilt on him. Also he wasn't the one "burning bridges", he left for good reasons! If even half of that is true, Obsidian is a bucket of crabs and management over there is frikkin' atrocious. So where are your doubts concerning Obsidian's management then?

There are probably good reasons why these other devs left too. Yet here you are, pointing the finger at Avellone instead of Obsidian's internal mismanagement.

I wouldn't bother, honestly. The folks who are dismissing Avellone as being a bitter ex-employee and are trying to bring up the false allegations against him to discredit him are all just console warriors and its rather blatant at that.

Not sure why they are so worried either. Just because a game goes through a number of high ranking devs does not mean that the game will be bad. Hell, we don't even know anything ABOUT this game as it has only ever gotten a CGI trailer and a few vague promises. People should just wait and see with the finished product instead of getting all defensive on a title that has no real info yet just because of some silly exclusivity.

 

[tsumake]

I wouldn't bother, honestly. The folks who are dismissing Avellone as being a bitter ex-employee and are trying to bring up the false allegations against him to discredit him are all just console warriors and its rather blatant at that.

Not sure why they are so worried either. Just because a game goes through a number of high ranking devs does not mean that the game will be bad. Hell, we don't even know anything ABOUT this game as it has only ever gotten a CGI trailer and a few vague promises. People should just wait and see with the finished product instead of getting all defensive on a title that has no real info yet just because of some silly exclusivity.

Why are people so worked up about Avellone in the first place? Wasn’t there a mostly sympathetic reaction thread to his canceling a year ago?

 

[Dr. Claus]

Why are people so worked up about Avellone in the first place? Wasn’t there a mostly sympathetic reaction thread to his canceling a year ago?

That thread is still ongoing after the updates and revelations proving all the allegations to be blatantly false, with evidence to show that the accuser was outright lying.

The vast majority of the community is sympathetic to what happened and knows that Avellone isn't simply stating things because he is "bitter" about Obsidian. The ones who are "so worked up", to use your language, are the console warriors trying to dismiss any negativity about an exclusive that has no real information on their choice of plastic box.

 

[tsumake]

That thread is still ongoing after the updates and revelations proving all the allegations to be blatantly false, with evidence to show that the accuser was outright lying.

The vast majority of the community is sympathetic to what happened and knows that Avellone isn't simply stating things because he is "bitter" about Obsidian. The ones who are "so worked up", to use your language, are the console warriors trying to dismiss any negativity about an exclusive that has no real information on their choice of plastic box.

*sigh*

Is this why mods ban “console warring?” It seems like it would be safer to talk about religion.

 

[Dr. Claus]

*sigh*

Is this why mods ban “console warring?” It seems like it would be safer to talk about religion.

Not sure I get what you mean. Console warring is rather blatant and just childish insecurities of people who associate their personality/life to a plastic box/company. The mods will, of course, warn/ban those who can't act like adults and try to derail/dismiss any discussion.

 

[strange headache]

I wouldn't bother, honestly. The folks who are dismissing Avellone as being a bitter ex-employee and are trying to bring up the false allegations against him to discredit him are all just console warriors and its rather blatant at that.

Not sure why they are so worried either. Just because a game goes through a number of high ranking devs does not mean that the game will be bad. Hell, we don't even know anything ABOUT this game as it has only ever gotten a CGI trailer and a few vague promises. People should just wait and see with the finished product instead of getting all defensive on a title that has no real info yet just because of some silly exclusivity.

Man, Avellone is one of the most iconic devs in gaming history and he practically founded Obsidian. He's a bit more than just a "disgruntled ex-employee".
Slandering a person based on no information at all, just so you can defend your favorite console box is pretty f*cking low. This is not the place to be stanning for Microsoft

 

[SaucyJack]

Can’t help but observe that there’s been a bit of a backfire here.

Avellone's original comment was an innocuous one line reply to a tweet. If people had let it lie it would have passed with barely a raised eyebrow outside of forums and this thread would have been a couple of pages and dead already.

Instead MS get one of their preferred back channel leakers, Jez Corden, to argue the point. They often do this when they want the party line put out there but don’t want to publicly comment themselves. This ends up bringing much more attention to something that otherwise was a nothingburger.

Chris Avellone, given his history and network, undoubtedly has a good idea of what’s going on at Obsidian, and his exchange with Jez has proven that. We also know that he’s not an unbiased actor as he has a bit of beef with them. One can’t assume the game is in trouble, or not, from his comments.

 

[Topher]

never mind

 

[Bernkastel]

The folks who are dismissing Avellone as being a bitter ex-employee and are trying to bring up the false allegations against him to discredit him are all just console warriors and its rather blatant at that.

What is the "false allegations" anyone bought up to discredit him? Bringing up the fact that Avellone said

• Feargus Urquhart has "pre-millennial entitlement" and "a lack of empathy"
• If he could go back in time, he would have have convinced Tim Cain to not join Obsidian and "spare him the agony".
• Obsidian blamed publishers for their mistakes to gain sympathy for crowd sourcing
• There was no Baldurs Gate 3 because Bioware was "sick of dealing with Black Isle Studios"
• Josh Sawyer can't leave Obsidian because Feargus probably tied his financial compensation with remaining and working at the company
• Justin Britch got a promotion because he is one of Feargus's favorites, who was raised to be a producer exactly the way Feargus wanted to be
• Darren Monahan and Chris Parker begged Jonathan Burke to stay
• Obsidian reluctantly made Avellone an offer to work on Tyranny to "appease Paradox, justify some costs, and also minimize bad press(since Avellone would still be part of Obsidian with that)"
• Josh Sawyer got promoted from a Design Director in Outer Worlds to an Executive Producer replacing Richard Taylor so that he could charge Take Two to offset his new house costs
• No one wants to work under Chris Parker as an Executive Producer
• Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky would be happier somewhere else
• Pillars of Eternity 2 bugs are the perfect thing QA can miss and are likely because developers don't have time or inclination to play the game
• In both Fallout New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity 2, they were aware of the bugs present at release to compromise the quality of game. Same with KOTOR2, where the internal mandate was to ship it anyway as they didn't want to lose royalties from missing the target date, but the royalties that came in for KOTOR2 didn't make up for their quality of release. Obsidian should have suffered some financial hardship
• Without Bioware, Black Isle Studios would only have been known for Fallout. BIS spent a lot of money and could not make any engines, the games they made or published with Bioware's Infinity Engine - Lionheart, Planescape: Doomguard (apparently some cancelled Planescape game), Black Isle's Torn, Baldur's Gate III(Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound), Van Buren(codename for Fallout 3) and Stonekeep 2 either didn't ship or didn't make any money even though they had high costs. Planescape: Torment didn't do that good and was not a financial win. Brian Fargo was to be thanked for securing D&D license not Black Isle. Black Isle does not deserve credit for Fallout either since they were considering spinning off Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky's team into another sub division even at the start of Fallout 2
• Most people didn't get royalties for Neverwinter Nights 2, because Feargus mandated them to be dispersed among upper management
• The Executive Producer role is a "production bullshit" created by Obsidian to draw "more blood from the publisher"(referring to Josh Sawyer and Outer Worlds)
• Obsidian looked into Divinity Original Sin and Original Sin II and thought they could do that
• PCGamesN is solidly in Obsidian's court(referring to PCGamesN calling Obsidian the best RPG dev in the world)
• Tyranny's marketing was handled by Obsidian not Paradox, and thus the fault lies in Obsidian(he then talks about how Techland handled the story trailer forTorment: Tides of Numenera very well). Localization of PoE2 was pretty bad because the localizers only got an "XML text dump of verbs and nouns from the game that are intended to be stitched together"
• Chris Parker's management style wastes countless dollars and time(ranting about Obsidian's next AAA project which turned out to be Avowed)

Apparently these are all "false allegations to discredit him" and you are a "blatant console warrior" for mentioning and have to blindly embrace his tweet regarding Avowed without any questions.

The vast majority of the community is sympathetic to what happened and knows that Avellone isn't simply stating things because he is "bitter" about Obsidian. The ones who are "so worked up", to use your language, are the console warriors trying to dismiss any negativity about an exclusive that has no real information on their choice of plastic box.

Why are people so worked up about Avellone in the first place? Wasn’t there a mostly sympathetic reaction thread to his canceling a year ago?

And why is the Chris Avellone sympathy thread used prevent him from any criticism? He can go full Cliff Bleszinski on twitter and you will say there is a sympathy thread so you are a console warrior for criticizing him?

Not sure I get what you mean. Console warring is rather blatant and just childish insecurities of people who associate their personality/life to a plastic box/company. The mods will, of course, warn/ban those who can't act like adults and try to derail/dismiss any discussion.

Often times it is console warriors who accuse others of being console warriors. Its a very unpleasant thing to admit you are a console warrior. So instead you develop an image of not being a console warrior by attacking people you don't like, calling them "console warrior" or "fanboy".

Man, Avellone is one of the most iconic devs in gaming history and he practically founded Obsidian. He's a bit more than just a "disgruntled ex-employee".
Slandering a person based on no information at all, just so you can defend your favorite console box is pretty f*cking low. This is not the place to be stanning for Microsoft

No information? Unless you are leaving under a rock he has been doing this ever since he left Obsidian.




Talking about your former workplace with this level of enthusiasm is more than just a "disgruntled ex-employee".

Avellone's original comment was an innocuous one line reply to a tweet. If people had let it lie it would have passed with barely a raised eyebrow outside of forums and this thread would have been a couple of pages and dead already.

Nah it will be used as a fodder to create FUD for console warring till it comes out. How long was Matt Booty's comment of cross gen games for the first year(made in 2019) used for console warring?

Instead MS get one of their preferred back channel leakers, Jez Corden, to argue the point. They often do this when they want the party line put out there but don’t want to publicly comment themselves. This ends up bringing much more attention to something that otherwise was a nothingburger.

Ah the usual - he must be working for that company if he does not agree with the FUD.

 

[SaucyJack]

Bernkastel - are you suggesting that Jez Corden is not a preferred mouthpiece for MS?

And you’re missing the point of my post which was that by engaging with Avellone the intervention by Corden created more noise rather than putting matters to rest.

 

[DenchDeckard]

What is the "false allegations" anyone bought up to discredit him? Bringing up the fact that Avellone said

• Feargus Urquhart has "pre-millennial entitlement" and "a lack of empathy"
• If he could go back in time, he would have have convinced Tim Cain to not join Obsidian and "spare him the agony".
• Obsidian blamed publishers for their mistakes to gain sympathy for crowd sourcing
• There was no Baldurs Gate 3 because Bioware was "sick of dealing with Black Isle Studios"
• Josh Sawyer can't leave Obsidian because Feargus probably tied his financial compensation with remaining and working at the company
• Justin Britch got a promotion because he is one of Feargus's favorites, who was raised to be a producer exactly the way Feargus wanted to be
• Darren Monahan and Chris Parker begged Jonathan Burke to stay
• Obsidian reluctantly made Avellone an offer to work on Tyranny to "appease Paradox, justify some costs, and also minimize bad press(since Avellone would still be part of Obsidian with that)"
• Josh Sawyer got promoted from a Design Director in Outer Worlds to an Executive Producer replacing Richard Taylor so that he could charge Take Two to offset his new house costs
• No one wants to work under Chris Parker as an Executive Producer
• Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky would be happier somewhere else
• Pillars of Eternity 2 bugs are the perfect thing QA can miss and are likely because developers don't have time or inclination to play the game
• In both Fallout New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity 2, they were aware of the bugs present at release to compromise the quality of game. Same with KOTOR2, where the internal mandate was to ship it anyway as they didn't want to lose royalties from missing the target date, but the royalties that came in for KOTOR2 didn't make up for their quality of release. Obsidian should have suffered some financial hardship
• Without Bioware, Black Isle Studios would only have been known for Fallout. BIS spent a lot of money and could not make any engines, the games they made or published with Bioware's Infinity Engine - Lionheart, Planescape: Doomguard (apparently some cancelled Planescape game), Black Isle's Torn, Baldur's Gate III(Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound), Van Buren(codename for Fallout 3) and Stonekeep 2 either didn't ship or didn't make any money even though they had high costs. Planescape: Torment didn't do that good and was not a financial win. Brian Fargo was to be thanked for securing D&D license not Black Isle. Black Isle does not deserve credit for Fallout either since they were considering spinning off Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky's team into another sub division even at the start of Fallout 2
• Most people didn't get royalties for Neverwinter Nights 2, because Feargus mandated them to be dispersed among upper management
• The Executive Producer role is a "production bullshit" created by Obsidian to draw "more blood from the publisher"(referring to Josh Sawyer and Outer Worlds)
• Obsidian looked into Divinity Original Sin and Original Sin II and thought they could do that
• PCGamesN is solidly in Obsidian's court(referring to PCGamesN calling Obsidian the best RPG dev in the world)
• Tyranny's marketing was handled by Obsidian not Paradox, and thus the fault lies in Obsidian(he then talks about how Techland handled the story trailer forTorment: Tides of Numenera very well). Localization of PoE2 was pretty bad because the localizers only got an "XML text dump of verbs and nouns from the game that are intended to be stitched together"
• Chris Parker's management style wastes countless dollars and time(ranting about Obsidian's next AAA project which turned out to be Avowed)

Apparently these are all "false allegations to discredit him" and you are a "blatant console warrior" for mentioning and have to blindly embrace his tweet regarding Avowed without any questions.


And why is the Chris Avellone sympathy thread used prevent him from any criticism? He can go full Cliff Bleszinski on twitter and you will say there is a sympathy thread so you are a console warrior for criticizing him?

Often times it is console warriors who accuse others of being console warriors. Its a very unpleasant thing to admit you are a console warrior. So instead you develop an image of not being a console warrior by attacking people you don't like, calling them "console warrior" or "fanboy".

No information? Unless you are leaving under a rock he has been doing this ever since he left Obsidian.




Talking about your former workplace with this level of enthusiasm is more than just a "disgruntled ex-employee".

Nah it will be used as a fodder to create FUD for console warring till it comes out. How long was Matt Booty's comment of cross gen games for the first year(made in 2019) used for console warring?

Ah the usual - he must be working for that company if he does not agree with the FUD.

Some pretty good receipts here.

obviously, doesn’t prove that avelone isn’t correct butclearly Shows some of his motives in the past.

 

[strange headache]

Nah it will be used as a fodder to create FUD for console warring till it comes out. How long was Matt Booty's comment of cross gen games for the first year(made in 2019) used for console warring?

You're the one console warring here, you wouldn't even give a crap about Avellone were it not for the fact that Obsidian belongs to Microsoft now and are creating games for your preferred console.

It is known that Avellone didn't leave Obsidian on the best of terms, that doesn't automatically invalidate everything he says. He was de-ownered by his own partners for not playing ball with the rampant nepotism and because they wanted to grab his share in royalties. Avellone had to waive a pretty significant severance package so he could retain his right to speak, of course he's going to make us of it! He got bullied out of his own frikkin' company.

Lastly, there are no lies detected in what Avellone has said, you may not like it, but that is your personal problem. Dude had to deal with enough smear campaigns, we don't need Microsoft's lap dogs adding more fuel to the fire because they got triggered by a factually correct statement.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Damn this thread got stupid since Sunday...

I think a lot of people are wary of Tencent’s acquisitions as well. I don’t think this is a Microsoft vs Sony (or Tencent) issue. It’s a concern of the future development of these game devs after acquisition.

Sadly for some people it IS a Microsoft vs. Sony thing, primarily, because I have seen a lot of those same types never speak up on Tencent acquisitions (or if they did, snarkily try laying blame on Microsoft for it for whatever stupid reason), Embracer Group acquisitions, etc.

And truth be told there have been numerous closing of developers post-acquisition by Microsoft, Sony, and multiple other publishers, going back to the mid '90s, so I don't see why that is now suddenly a concern. It'd be one thing if, say, IKEA or Sears were purchasing these devs, because those are companies that clearly have no (extensive) history or relations in the gaming industry.

But that isn't the case whatsover; virtually all companies looking to buy understand the market very well. And most importantly, all of the companies being sold, WANT to sell to a suitor. These aren't hostile takeovers so that's not a factor that should be concerning people here.

I wouldn't bother, honestly. The folks who are dismissing Avellone as being a bitter ex-employee and are trying to bring up the false allegations against him to discredit him are all just console warriors and its rather blatant at that.

You have your wires crossed; it's not so much dismissing him as it is saying that one person's supposed word doesn't mean too much in the grand scheme of things without corroborative points of agreement from several other people close to them or close to the situation at hand.

Downplaying that part of things is almost as suspicious as anyone who actually is outright dismissing his comments here, for similar reasons/motivating factors you just laid out, btw.

Not sure why they are so worried either. Just because a game goes through a number of high ranking devs does not mean that the game will be bad. Hell, we don't even know anything ABOUT this game as it has only ever gotten a CGI trailer and a few vague promises. People should just wait and see with the finished product instead of getting all defensive on a title that has no real info yet just because of some silly exclusivity.

Yes, and this same thought can be said to people who are using his comment on Twitter to doom-and-gloom the game already, or state with some level of certainty (on their belief) that it will be a bad game. There's been more than a bit of that in the thread, it would help to call that out too just saying...

Bernkastel - are you suggesting that Jez Corden is not a preferred mouthpiece for MS?

Awfully derogatory and dismissive way frame her, denigrating tone to boot. Also potential slander, since you have no documented proof to back such a claim up. It's like saying RedGamingTech is a Sony mouthpiece, and he's actually interviewed people from Sony so there is that.

I'm not making that claim, just pointing out what a logical failure it is to throw the accusation he, Jez, or multiple others are mouthpieces just because of who they may happen to know/have ties to, what they tend to discuss etc.

 

[Dr. Claus]

You have your wires crossed; it's not so much dismissing him as it is saying that one person's supposed word doesn't mean too much in the grand scheme of things without corroborative points of agreement from several other people close to them or close to the situation at hand.

Downplaying that part of things is almost as suspicious as anyone who actually is outright dismissing his comments here, for similar reasons/motivating factors you just laid out, btw.

Yes, and this same thought can be said to people who are using his comment on Twitter to doom-and-gloom the game already, or state with some level of certainty (on their belief) that it will be a bad game. There's been more than a bit of that in the thread, it would help to call that out too just saying.

I agree with you entirely on this point. Hence why I literally said that we know nothing about this game and changing of major development staff, which can easily be seen by anyone (and is a proven fact at this point), does not mean a game will be bad. We literally know nothing about this game other than its in first person and that it is in the Pillars of Eternity universe.

Awfully derogatory and dismissive way frame her, denigrating tone to boot. Also potential slander, since you have no documented proof to back such a claim up. It's like saying RedGamingTech is a Sony mouthpiece, and he's actually interviewed people from Sony so there is that.

I'm not making that claim, just pointing out what a logical failure it is to throw the accusation he, Jez, or multiple others are mouthpieces just because of who they may happen to know/have ties to, what they tend to discuss etc.

Jez is a well known astroturfer for Microsoft. There is no debate about that. That would be like saying AP99 isn't a Sony Astroturfer or GameExplain isn't a Nintendo shill. Its just a fact of life.

Denying it is like putting your head in the sand.

As for Bernkastel - Strange Headache already stated what I would have responded with. You are well known for being a staunch Xbox Console Warrior, so I am not surprised you are doubling down and ignoring what is so blatantly in this thread.

As I stated before - the game can still be a great game - however nothing Avellone stated is currently a lie. People have left, in droves. The only thing that is debatable is if this is something to be concerned about, which I really see no reason to be as we know almost nothing about this game yet. As others have stated, development of games has a rotating group of people joining and leaving a company depending on what they were hired to do.

However, you are taking this as a personal attack because... why? Its an exclusive game on your chosen plastic box? If this company wasn't bought out by Microsoft, you literally wouldn't be here trying desperately to dismiss all this. Chill out and play some games, mate. Don't get so worked up over meaningless things. Speaking of which, I am going to go back to playing some Humankind (PC) thanks to gamepass.

 

[tsumake]

What is the "false allegations" anyone bought up to discredit him? Bringing up the fact that Avellone said

• Feargus Urquhart has "pre-millennial entitlement" and "a lack of empathy"
• If he could go back in time, he would have have convinced Tim Cain to not join Obsidian and "spare him the agony".
• Obsidian blamed publishers for their mistakes to gain sympathy for crowd sourcing
• There was no Baldurs Gate 3 because Bioware was "sick of dealing with Black Isle Studios"
• Josh Sawyer can't leave Obsidian because Feargus probably tied his financial compensation with remaining and working at the company
• Justin Britch got a promotion because he is one of Feargus's favorites, who was raised to be a producer exactly the way Feargus wanted to be
• Darren Monahan and Chris Parker begged Jonathan Burke to stay
• Obsidian reluctantly made Avellone an offer to work on Tyranny to "appease Paradox, justify some costs, and also minimize bad press(since Avellone would still be part of Obsidian with that)"
• Josh Sawyer got promoted from a Design Director in Outer Worlds to an Executive Producer replacing Richard Taylor so that he could charge Take Two to offset his new house costs
• No one wants to work under Chris Parker as an Executive Producer
• Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky would be happier somewhere else
• Pillars of Eternity 2 bugs are the perfect thing QA can miss and are likely because developers don't have time or inclination to play the game
• In both Fallout New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity 2, they were aware of the bugs present at release to compromise the quality of game. Same with KOTOR2, where the internal mandate was to ship it anyway as they didn't want to lose royalties from missing the target date, but the royalties that came in for KOTOR2 didn't make up for their quality of release. Obsidian should have suffered some financial hardship
• Without Bioware, Black Isle Studios would only have been known for Fallout. BIS spent a lot of money and could not make any engines, the games they made or published with Bioware's Infinity Engine - Lionheart, Planescape: Doomguard (apparently some cancelled Planescape game), Black Isle's Torn, Baldur's Gate III(Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound), Van Buren(codename for Fallout 3) and Stonekeep 2 either didn't ship or didn't make any money even though they had high costs. Planescape: Torment didn't do that good and was not a financial win. Brian Fargo was to be thanked for securing D&D license not Black Isle. Black Isle does not deserve credit for Fallout either since they were considering spinning off Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky's team into another sub division even at the start of Fallout 2
• Most people didn't get royalties for Neverwinter Nights 2, because Feargus mandated them to be dispersed among upper management
• The Executive Producer role is a "production bullshit" created by Obsidian to draw "more blood from the publisher"(referring to Josh Sawyer and Outer Worlds)
• Obsidian looked into Divinity Original Sin and Original Sin II and thought they could do that
• PCGamesN is solidly in Obsidian's court(referring to PCGamesN calling Obsidian the best RPG dev in the world)
• Tyranny's marketing was handled by Obsidian not Paradox, and thus the fault lies in Obsidian(he then talks about how Techland handled the story trailer forTorment: Tides of Numenera very well). Localization of PoE2 was pretty bad because the localizers only got an "XML text dump of verbs and nouns from the game that are intended to be stitched together"
• Chris Parker's management style wastes countless dollars and time(ranting about Obsidian's next AAA project which turned out to be Avowed)

Apparently these are all "false allegations to discredit him" and you are a "blatant console warrior" for mentioning and have to blindly embrace his tweet regarding Avowed without any questions.


And why is the Chris Avellone sympathy thread used prevent him from any criticism? He can go full Cliff Bleszinski on twitter and you will say there is a sympathy thread so you are a console warrior for criticizing him?

Often times it is console warriors who accuse others of being console warriors. Its a very unpleasant thing to admit you are a console warrior. So instead you develop an image of not being a console warrior by attacking people you don't like, calling them "console warrior" or "fanboy".

No information? Unless you are leaving under a rock he has been doing this ever since he left Obsidian.




Talking about your former workplace with this level of enthusiasm is more than just a "disgruntled ex-employee".

Nah it will be used as a fodder to create FUD for console warring till it comes out. How long was Matt Booty's comment of cross gen games for the first year(made in 2019) used for console warring?

Ah the usual - he must be working for that company if he does not agree with the FUD.

Avellone doesn’t like the management at Obsidian. This was all ready acknowledged in this thread and it was acknowledged that it doesn’t necessarily invalidate his opinion. Glad to see you’re being productive on a holiday.

 

[sircaw]

Looking forward to what they make, i really hope whatever problems they have short trem, they solve.

We need more good/solid rpgs.

I think they will deliver something good.

 

[martino]

This is a topic a real journalist could easily investigate and tell us if it's true or not....
Game Journalists ? Journalists ? Hello ? Is there anybody to do journalist work for this media ?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Jez is a well known astroturfer for Microsoft. There is no debate about that. That would be like saying AP99 isn't a Sony Astroturfer or GameExplain isn't a Nintendo shill. Its just a fact of life.

Denying it is like putting your head in the sand.

But your other two examples don't even check out; AP99 actually pissed off a lot of Sony fanboys on Twitter for even getting a Series X, let alone reneging on his GamePass boycott (which was ridiculous in the first place, but whatever). GameExplain just seem like a spot that reports on games, if they have a slight preference to Nintendo I don't see the issue so long as they aren't being denigrating towards Sony and Microsoft.

By the logic you're going with here, I could call SpawnWave a Nintendo shill, or Mystic a Sony shill/astroturfer, the latter because he more or less exclusively talks about PlayStation. But I don't, because again I don't care if someone has a preference for one brand over the other, as long as they aren't being hostile or needlessly negative towards the brands they don't have a preference for, then it's okay. That doesn't suddenly make them a shill or astroturfer.

 

[tsumake]

Damn this thread got stupid since Sunday...



Sadly for some people it IS a Microsoft vs. Sony thing, primarily, because I have seen a lot of those same types never speak up on Tencent acquisitions (or if they did, snarkily try laying blame on Microsoft for it for whatever stupid reason), Embracer Group acquisitions, etc.

And truth be told there have been numerous closing of developers post-acquisition by Microsoft, Sony, and multiple other publishers, going back to the mid '90s, so I don't see why that is now suddenly a concern. It'd be one thing if, say, IKEA or Sears were purchasing these devs, because those are companies that clearly have no (extensive) history or relations in the gaming industry.

But that isn't the case whatsover; virtually all companies looking to buy understand the market very well. And most importantly, all of the companies being sold, WANT to sell to a suitor. These aren't hostile takeovers so that's not a factor that should be concerning people here.



You have your wires crossed; it's not so much dismissing him as it is saying that one person's supposed word doesn't mean too much in the grand scheme of things without corroborative points of agreement from several other people close to them or close to the situation at hand.

Downplaying that part of things is almost as suspicious as anyone who actually is outright dismissing his comments here, for similar reasons/motivating factors you just laid out, btw.



Yes, and this same thought can be said to people who are using his comment on Twitter to doom-and-gloom the game already, or state with some level of certainty (on their belief) that it will be a bad game. There's been more than a bit of that in the thread, it would help to call that out too just saying...



Awfully derogatory and dismissive way frame her, denigrating tone to boot. Also potential slander, since you have no documented proof to back such a claim up. It's like saying RedGamingTech is a Sony mouthpiece, and he's actually interviewed people from Sony so there is that.

I'm not making that claim, just pointing out what a logical failure it is to throw the accusation he, Jez, or multiple others are mouthpieces just because of who they may happen to know/have ties to, what they tend to discuss etc.

People are expressIng opinions. I could point out your logical failure (or naivete) by pointing out all the companies that closed post acquisition but then contradicting yourself in the following paragraph. But that should be outside the scope of this conversation.

 

[TheMay30thMan]

How do we know the leads weren’t ousted for being shitty leads?

 

[oagboghi2]

How do we know the leads weren’t ousted for being shitty leads?

sure, It’s possible

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

People are expressIng opinions. I could point out your logical failure (or naivete) by pointing out all the companies that closed post acquisition but then contradicting yourself in the following paragraph. But that should be outside the scope of this conversation.

You certainly could and as you said that'd take the discussion well off-topic, but also keep in mind that closures are bound to happen in some capacity and have been happening, again, since before we even had the internet. It's not a recent event due to newer acquisitions, and not all closures are for the worst.


Also studio closures aren't exclusive to acquisitions, they can (and have) included wholly internal teams as well.

 

[tsumake]

You certainly could and as you said that'd take the discussion well off-topic, but also keep in mind that closures are bound to happen in some capacity and have been happening, again, since before we even had the internet. It's not a recent event due to newer acquisitions, and not all closures are for the worst.


Also studio closures aren't exclusive to acquisitions, they can (and have) included wholly internal teams as well.

So these big corps don’t do their due diligence and are “surprised” by how poorly managed their acquisition is?

 

[Bernd Lauert]

I like how easily Gaf believes any random tweet as actual news.

Avellone got kicked out of the company for his shitty behaviour and recently got kicked out of Techland. That should tell you everything about him

People believe what they want to believe. Unsurprisingly, the people who are highly invested in this being true are all from Team Blue.

 

[Labadal]

How do we know the leads weren’t ousted for being shitty leads?

Chris Parker is supposed to be a shitty lead. As a co-owner, he thought he knew everything, and projects would suffer because of that.

The others? They probably wanted to try something new. Nothing strange there.

 

[Teslerum]

Chris Parker is supposed to be a shitty lead. As a co-owner, he thought he knew everything, and projects would suffer because of that.

The others? They probably wanted to try something new. Nothing strange there.

Speaking of which Microsoft apparently got Obsidians management a babysitter

So yeah, this is probably the beginning of the end for Obsidian's old owners (Parker, Feargus). Depending on how you see the situation that can be a good thing though.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcus-morgan-2a286022/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_miniProfile%3AACoAAATA55oBg3JEmtI6Nxm_WbFdIvlEMTqRLtk

Head of Strategy and Operations
Obsidian Entertainment

Jul 2021 - Present 3 months

Los Angeles Metropolitan Area

Lead business operation functions such as HR, legal, communications, and business development for Obsidian Entertainment – a premiere Xbox game studio.

Accountable for creating a studio environment that enables the development of beloved games and delivering a strategy that enables us to reach and exceedingly satisfy players around the world.

Microsoft

2 years 1 month

Senior Manager, Global Product Marketing - Xbox Game Studios

Aug 2020 - Jul 2021 1 year

 

[azertydu91]

People believe what they want to believe. Unsurprisingly, the people who are highly invested in this being true are all from Team Blue.

And people saying Avelone is biased are team green your point being that warriors keep warring is supposed to be surprising?
The only real facts are some people have left obsidian, this has been reported by a biased source(chris) denied by jez which was wrong on that subject.
Now to speculate if this is a bad or a good thing for the game it is easy ...Nobody fucking knows.And there's no war in there, people left we don't know why, but at least on that subject at least Chris was right and Jez was wrong.That's it.Everything else is speculation or console wars.I will simply repeat what I said if 2 years ago we'd heard the rumors of a shake up at 343 it would've been perceived as a bad thing but seing how Halo was suppose to release would it have been that bad ?
So leads moving isn't inherently a bad thing it is just common pratice in this industry.

 

[East of Odessa]

And people saying Avelone is biased are team green your point being that warriors keep warring is supposed to be surprising?
The only real facts are some people have left obsidian, this has been reported by a biased source(chris) denied by jez which was wrong on that subject.

I'm still confused what Jez actually asked Obsidian and who he talked to - based on the thread, he didn't even ask about the employees leaving, as the names and profile receipts didn't even seem to come out until Jez did his "thorough investigation" of possibly one vague question - it looks like he even tried to redirect the thread away from the specific departures, which was kind of shifty, but maybe that's his job. He never addressed the departures at all.

People seem to leave all the time, but 3-4 leads on one project at the same time feels like a reboot needed to happen.

Am curious about the babysitter, I wonder how long they'll last - or how long others will last. It does seem like the babysitter would do much of what the Parker fellow was supposed to be doing, so who knows.

There apparently was some bad blood between Feargus and Chris Parker as far back as the Pillars 1 kickstarter where they traded fuck-yous in the background while everyone else ran for cover. IIRC, like almost everyone left the stream from the Obsidian side. Feargus could probably have the power to remove a bad employee from the project, and that would include Parker, even as high up as Parker is.

delivering a strategy that enables us to reach and exceedingly satisfy players around the world. = This feels like a misconduct lawsuit waiting to happen. I don't want to be reached or exceedingly satisfied without my consent.