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[Fmal]

I know where you're coming from, but again, it doesn't really seem right for this character. It wouldn't bother me personally if he was Asian, but I can imagine it might offend some people that the only major Asian actor in the MCU would be a stereotypical martial arts master.

Maybe the solution to that is to not make him the only major Asian actor in the MCU.

 

[mjc]

Maybe the solution to that is to not make him the only major Asian actor in the MCU.

Well, we've already had a Cho show up in Age of Ultron, so I'm assuming Amadeus isn't far behind in some capacity.

 

[MHWilliams]

Oh I totally get it, Luke Cage was a poor example on my part. You're not wrong either on the pool being smaller.

Changing the race of a character 'just because' is fine for a lot of characters I'd imagine, like the reference to MCD in Daredevil. Race or sexuality isn't an issue with the Kingpin, so it was a good fit. I think in this particular case, saying that Iron Fist has to be Asian just because he's a kung fu fighter seems like a stretch. Could just be me.

I don't think he *has* to be Asian. He could be white, black, Hispanic, Native American, or Asian. It really matters very little as long as he's not directly from K'un Lun. Logically, looking at the current spread of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I'd trend towards the latter part of that list, because there are definite spots where you could use diversity, but it's clear Marvel is moving down a line of clear hierarchy.

The Asian Iron Fist idea came from an Asian-American writer who floated the idea, which was later taken up by other Asian-Americans looking for representation. Then you had the thinkpieces and all that jazz.

I admit the biggest issue I have with Danny as he stands is how he sticks close to certain tropes I'd rather not see repeated. I love the character in the comics, but if you're remaking him for television, you have an opportunity to make changes. Marvel has taken them with other characters - Vision, Ultron, Scarlet Witch, Night Nurse, off the top of my head - so why not Iron Fist?

 

[Rhaknar]

Pros of making Iron Fist an Asian-American:
-More diversity in one of the biggest and most important movie and tv franchises on earth.
-We get to watch butthurt nerds (who totally aren't racist I swear, they just really, really, REALLY care about canon!) get mad.

thanks for calling me a racist because I want it to be faithful to the comic book

 

[Not]

Pros of making Iron Fist an Asian-American:
-More diversity in one of the biggest and most important movie and tv franchises on earth.
-We get to watch butthurt nerds (who totally aren't racist I swear, they just really, really, REALLY care about canon!) get mad.

Cons of making Iron Fist an Asian-American:
-The totally fictional story they tell in the show will be a slightly different from the totally fictional story they're basing everything on.

Pretty much

The "it's racist to make him Asian because he knows kung fu" argument is stupid. It's actually racist to make a white guy who knows kung fu for some reason more important that Asians who know kung fu.

It's the centuries-old Imperialist idea that cultural concepts and techniques are only important when white people get their hands on them.

 

[BronsonLee]

Oh, so we're skipping to the calling people racist part now, ok

Spoiler

*looks down*
HOLY SHIT I'M ASIAN WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN

This thread getting bumped is hell on earth.

 

[Fmal]

I don't think he *has* to be Asian. He could be white, black, Hispanic, Native American, or Asian. It really matters very little as long as he's not directly from K'un Lun. Logically, looking at the current spread of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I'd trend towards the latter part of that list, because there are definite spots where you could use diversity, but it's clear Marvel is moving down a line of clear hierarchy.

The Asian Iron Fist idea came from an Asian-American writer who floated the idea, which was later taken up by other Asian-Americans looking for representation. Then you had the thinkpieces and all that jazz.

I admit the biggest issue I have with Danny as he stands is how he sticks close to certain tropes I'd rather not see repeated. I love the character in the comics, but if you're remaking him for television, you have an opportunity to make changes. Marvel has taken them with other characters - Vision, Ultron, Scarlet Witch, Night Nurse, off the top of my head - so why not Iron Fist?

Honestly? Because none of those characters were originally white, heterosexual, males. Angry, bigoted losers only really give a shit about maintaining the source material when one of their own is threatened.

 

[mjc]

Honestly? Because none of those characters were originally white, heterosexual, males. Angry, bigoted losers only really give a shit about maintaining the source material when one of their own is threatened.

Preeeeeeeety huge assumption there...

 

[Fmal]

thanks for calling me a racist because I want it to be faithful to the comic book

If being faithful to a comic book matters to you more than making sure that the MCU isn't just white people with minorities sprinkled to flavor, then you are a racist, sorry.

Did you get this mad when they changed Ultron's origins? Or Visions? Or Winter Soldier? Did you get mad when you learned that the Civil War in the movies is going to be way different from the Civil War in the comics? Did you get mad at any of the literally countless changes they've made translating these comics and their characters from book to screen? Or do you only get mad when they take away white characters?

 

[Rhaknar]

Honestly? Because none of those characters were originally white, heterosexual, males. Angry, bigoted losers only really give a shit about maintaining the source material when one of their own is threatened.

the night nurse was originally white actually, NOBODY gave 2 fucks about changing her to black in Daredevil. But keep trying to stir up controversy where there is none

If being faithful to a comic book matters to you more than making sure that the MCU isn't just white people with minorities sprinkled to flavor, then you are a racist, sorry.

Did you get this mad when they changed Ultron's origins? Or Visions? Or Winter Soldier? Did you get mad when you learned that the Civil War in the movies is going to be way different from the Civil War in the comics? Did you get mad at any of the literally countless changes they've made translating these comics and their characters from book to screen? Or do you only get mad when they take away white characters?

where...where am I getting "this mad" as you say it. Is wanting something to be faithful getting mad now? Dude, youre not even hiding it, you just want to stir up shit. I would get just "as mad" if they changed Luke or Shang-Chi for example, because im one of those nerds as you like to call us

 

[Astarte]

Wow I'm racist? Damn, I must hate being an Asian American

 

[Not]

Oh, so we're skipping to the calling people racist part now, ok

Spoiler

*looks down*
HOLY SHIT I'M ASIAN WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN

This thread getting bumped is hell on earth.

Holy crap I just noticed your tag lol

Dude, why does it aggressively not matter to you what race Iron Fist is?

 

[duckroll]

C'mon, it's obviously important to more folks than just me, Duck. Sick and tired of only the "whitest white boy" getting Asian heritage super powers. It's Carradine-esque.

I do not disagree. I'm simply calling the character as it is in the comics. I have expressed before pros and cons on the casting of Iron Fist. I think it is actually more complicated than it is on surface because there is a valid point about his whiteness - it's a part of his character and it defines his personality (lots of subconscious white guilt, tons of privilege, tries to overcompensate by being a "street" guy, sort of ashamed of his wealth, etc).

But at the same time, I certainly recognize that none of that is actually really a positive thing. It's dated as fuck, it's trapped in the American Ninja era of thinking, and to a global world is it a pretty offensive stereotype. I'm Asian and I totally see it. Immortal Iron Fist was entertaining because it was so cheesy. It was a modernization but also a throw back, self-aware of how dated it is. If it were adapted in a serious way like Daredevil is on Netflix, it would feel like more of a joke than Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai.

So the question is this - should they be faithful, adapt the tone as well, and make what is basically a Mortal Kombat series with Johnny Cage in Not-Shangri-La? Or should they completely reinvent the character and make it something which international audiences can actually relate to and respect? Both choices will have backlash and the latter is actually far harder to tackle than the former.

For me personally, the appeal of the idea of an Asian Danny Rand has nothing to do with his martial arts powers or the "Chinese" cultural nature of Kunlun (I am literally rolling my eyes just thinking about how this will be handled on the show), but rather the appeal of seeing a young Asian guy who is both a superhero and a successful businessman in New York City, without anyone batting an eyelid at it. That sort of representation is fantastic, but then I remember the rest of Iron Fist, and it just kinda complicates the thought.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the comic is such a relic of "white men creating pseudo-Asian motifs" that I honestly feel a bit embarrassed wanting to appropriate him for Asian representation, if that makes sense.

 

[Fmal]

the night nurse was originally white actually, NOBODY gave 2 fucks about changing her to black in Daredevil. But keep trying to stir up controversy where there is none

That's my point? There's no controversy about changing an ancillary white character to a minority, but even think about changing a main one and "Whoa, hey, I'm not racist, I just don't want any white characters changing races here."

 

[Not]

If only Ultimate Danny Rand had been Asian. Then everyone would be clamoring for this. Such a missed opportunity IMO.

 

[BronsonLee]

Holy crap I just noticed your tag lol

Dude, why does it aggressively not matter to you what race Iron Fist is?

It absolutely matters to me! If he's white, I can't play him on the television screen!

 

[Not]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the comic is such a relic of "white men creating pseudo-Asian motifs" that I honestly feel a bit embarrassed wanting to appropriate him for Asian representation, if that makes sense.

It totally makes sense, but I think this is a chance to redeem the property in a way, by actually making it about representation and breaking free from any perceived remnants of cultural appropriation from that era.

 

[Rhaknar]

That's my point? There's no controversy about changing an ancillary white character to a minority, but even think about changing a main one and "Whoa, hey, I'm not racist, I just don't want any white characters changing races here."

youre the one that used her as an example! If people wanted to change Luke it would be the exact same shit.

you are utterly ridiculous for calling anyone that wants Danny to be faithful to the comic (because they have an attachment to the comic book origins) as racist, and im done with this

 

[duckroll]

Well, we've already had a Cho show up in Age of Ultron, so I'm assuming Amadeus isn't far behind in some capacity.

Was there any indication at all that Cho is Amadeus' mother? I don't remember anything at all. In the end the casting felt nothing more than a gimme to South Korean sponsors of the film. I was really disappointed.

 

[Lemaitre]

youre the one that used her as an example! If people wanted to change Luke it would be the exact same shit.

you are utterly ridiculous for calling anyone that wants Danny to be faithful to the comic (because they have an attachment to the comic book origins) as racist, and im done with this

Yeah that's pretty much the issue here. I see it as an issue of faithfulness to the source material which is understandable. Doubting people's intentions and accusing them with some kind of agenda of malice just takes out anything worth arguing about.

 

[mjc]

Was there any indication at all that Cho is Amadeus' mother? I don't remember anything at all. In the end the casting felt nothing more than a gimme to South Korean sponsors of the film. I was really disappointed.

Not that I could tell, I just made an assumption that she was. Now that I think about it, it would have been cooler if Amadeus was one of Jane's interns instead of Darcy. Super huge missed opportunity there.

 

[Fmal]

youre the one that used her as an example! If people wanted to change Luke it would be the exact same shit.

you are utterly ridiculous for calling anyone that wants Danny to be faithful to the comic (because they have an attachment to the comic book origins) as racist, and im done with this

I used her an example because it illustrates my point? You didn't get upset about her changing races and being "faithful to the comic" (why? probably because on top of being a female, she's also not a very significant character in the grand scheme of things), but as soon as you hear anyone talk about changing Danny Rand's character, all of a sudden it is of the UTMOST importance that characters DO NOT change race from book to screen.

Marvel has changed tons about the characters they've put into their movies, ranging from minor (the construction of Cap's shield) to major (entirely different origins for Ultron and Winter Soldier), but the only time I see these "comic faithfuls" raise a stink is when people talk about changing the race of a character from white to something else. I'm not trying to "stir up shit," I'm just tired of people giving a pass for obvious racism.

 

[mjc]

I used her an example because it illustrates my point? You didn't get upset about her changing races and being "faithful to the comic" (why? probably because on top of being a female, she's also not a very significant character in the grand scheme of things), but as soon as you hear anyone talk about changing Danny Rand's character, all of a sudden it is of the UTMOST importance that characters DO NOT change race from book to screen.

Marvel has changed tons about the characters they've put into their movies, ranging from minor (the construction of Cap's shield) to major (entirely different origins for Ultron and Winter Soldier), but the only time I see these "comic faithfuls" raise a stink is when people talk about changing the race of a character from white to something else. I'm not trying to "stir up shit," I'm just tired of people giving a pass for obvious racism.

You could be making a valid argument for some, but to broadcast a declaration of racism across the entire fanbase is a bit extreme.

 

[Fmal]

You could be making a valid argument for some, but to broadcast a declaration of racism across the entire fanbase is a bit extreme.

I'm not broadcasting a declaration of racism across the entire comic fanbase, just the entire comic fanbase that's actually behaving like racists.

 

[MHWilliams]

Honestly? Because none of those characters were originally white, heterosexual, males. Angry, bigoted losers only really give a shit about maintaining the source material when one of their own is threatened.

Whoa there. Slow your roll a bit.

Both Daredevil/Elektra have their ethnic origins (Irish Catholic, Greek) featured very prominently.

Rand's most important beats are that he's a) well-off and b) an outsider. It's one of the big reasons why it would work here when it wouldn't in a lot of other places.

Actually, if they do his origin arc, that's not even a part of the character. His opening arc is a revenge story against the guy who killed his parents and now owns his father's company, Rand-Meachum. (Meachum is the old dude)

Then somebody else kills the guy and his family spends the next issues trying to kill Danny.

Honestly, they sort of gloss over him getting control of the company back, as Wein and Claremont were more interested in doing a global martial arts adventure.

Those early issues are odd. K'un Lun has robots. and a ton of people of random, indeterminate origin.

 

[kirblar]

I suspect they won't go in that direction- it's very Gotham/Iron Man 1/Ant-Man in a way that doesn't really need to be re-tread.

 

[Htown]

Poor Chloe Bennet. Nobody thinks her character counts as a superhero.

 

[duckroll]

I'm going to cringe so hard every time I hear "August Personage" on the show. I really hope they just drop that entire thing. Just use the title Yu-Di, pronounce it right, and don't "translate" every other title or name to make it sound like some History Channel program. It really made no sense in the comics either, because Danny Rand basically grew up in Kunlun. Having all the characters talk like he didn't understand their customs or language was really stupid!

 

[X05]

The closest things you'll get as an Asian representative in the MCU movies/tv are Wong and Amaddeus Cho.

The MCU can't even cast an Asian actor as the Mandarin for god sakes.

Someone is not watching Agents of SHIELD.

 

[krypt0nian]

I'm not broadcasting a declaration of racism across the entire comic fanbase, just the entire comic fanbase that's actually behaving like racists.

Wow, you're something else.

 

[WarRock]

Hey.

Maybe he's Orson Randall.

Oh man, don't get me excited.

I meant available to the MCU. Also, is X-23 Asian? She's a Wolverine clone, not even a half clone as far as I know. Psylocke is still popular? When was her last solo book? Daken and Morph are not as big as Danny as a character or a Marvel IP.

X-23 wasn't even white skinned in X-Men Evolution. Went to the comics and boom.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here then. I think it's more interesting to have Asians hate on other Asians for being too westernized because that's a real thing that affects a lot of Asian-Americans. And the fact that it's abstracted another layer since Kun-Lun is a mystical city makes it even more interesting.

Heck, keep the fact that Orson is white! It could be why Kun-Lun dislikes western influences and sees an AA Danny as tainted by them.

But that's just my opinion.

That... sounds pretty great. Is there any reason to not do this?

 

[MHWilliams]

I suspect they won't go in that direction- it's very Gotham/Iron Man 1/Ant-Man in a way that doesn't really need to be re-tread.

I agree, but then you're not really doing Iron Fist's beginnings, you dig?

Steel Serpent, who hated Danny because he was a K'un Lun native who thought he should have the Iron Fist power? Clearly a white dude.

Hell, for a long time in the comics, K'un Lun wouldn't train women. That's a big part of Danny's half-sister's backstory.

This is what I'm talking about. Most people know Iron Fist from a single run of the comic. That's fine, but let's not act like that version is anymore "definitive Iron Fist" than what came before or after. The character has a long history. Marvel will pick and choose parts of that history to create their new Iron Fist. The character will change. Comics are change in an off themselves, so when people talk about being faithful to canon, I shrug a bit.

I'm going to cringe so hard every time I hear "August Personage" on the show. I really hope they just drop that entire thing. Just use the title Yu-Di, pronounce it right, and don't "translate" every other title or name to make it sound like some History Channel program. It really made no sense in the comics either, because Danny Rand basically grew up in Kunlun. Having all the characters talk like he didn't understand their customs or language was really stupid!

Yeah, I'm hoping they go this route as well.

 

[Not]

I forgot old Iron Fist comics were narrated in second person. Pretty neat.

 

[Fmal]

Poor Chloe Bennet. Nobody thinks her character counts as a superhero.

I feel like most people don't count her as anything because nobody watches that shitheap. I had to Google that name to figure out who you were talking about lmao.

 

[Slayven]

I assume you're talking about White Tiger from the 90s?

Yes, also the best time for Black Knight

 

[Fallout-NL]

After his performance in Way of the Gun, he's got a lot of mileage with me.

Same here. Fucking loved him in that.

 

[Staccat0]

I find this whole argument really interesting.

What is more racist? Making the Kung Fu guy Asian? Or not making the Kung Fu guy Asian?

I couldn't care less as long as it's good.

Real talk: the answer depends on how many asian characters you have in the first place.

 

[Choppasmith]

I feel like most people don't count her as anything because nobody watches that shitheap. I had to Google that name to figure out who you were talking about lmao.

"There aren't any kick-ass Asians in the MCU"
"Here's a couple"
"LOL! Those don't count because they're shit"

Yeah you're really fighting the good fight aren't ya? And you say the comic book fans are the ones who are racist and inconsistent.

Anyway, I'll trust Marvel with whatever they go with. But like Duckroll said, I don't think there's anything wrong in going with racial accuracy.

 

[KissVibes]

They should make Iron Fist a Black man and Luke Cage an Asian man.

 

[roflwaffles]

Well, we've already had a Cho show up in Age of Ultron, so I'm assuming Amadeus isn't far behind in some capacity.

Amadeus will be played by someone who is like 1/8th Asian since mainstream America doesn't give a shit about Asian males aside from Glenn from Walking Dead (or unless you're a samurai).

 

[Fmal]

"There aren't any kick-ass Asians in the MCU"
"Here's a couple"
"LOL! Those don't count because they're shit"

Yeah you're really fighting the good fight aren't ya? And you say the comic book fans are the ones who are racist and inconsistent.

Anyway, I'll trust Marvel with whatever they go with. But like Duckroll said, I don't think there's anything wrong in going with racial accuracy.

It's cool that they crammed all their cool minority characters into some dumpster show that nobody watches. That totally excuses the near-total exclusion of anyone but white people from their most popular properties.

If Skye is legitimately a cool character, then good, but that doesn't somehow give Marvel a pass on their otherwise awful minority representation, and it certainly doesn't excuse how shitty people are whenever someone suggests that Marvel cast a white character as a minority.

 

[Entryhazard]

I feel like most people don't count her as anything because nobody watches that shitheap. I had to Google that name to figure out who you were talking about lmao.

Well this proves that you aren't watching it at all

 

[WrenchNinja]

Well this proves that you aren't watching it at all

I'm watching it. Can't say I disagree with that description.

 

[BronsonLee]

I'm wandering back into this graveyard for one moment.

It's worth pointing out that Agents of Shield and the Iron Fist Netflix show would probably have very similar numbers in terms of ratings, if Daredevil is any indicator. Shield may actually have more in the long run. This is to expected, since it's on network TV.

Anyways I'm out cause I don't feel like being called a racist again over the potential race of the actor in a comic book television show.

 

[Fmal]

Well this proves that you aren't watching it at all

I'm not. I like the MCU, but I can barely handle the 2.5 hours I watch every six months or so. I can't imagine sitting through an entire season.

 

[X05]

I feel like most people don't count her as anything because nobody watches that shitheap. I had to Google that name to figure out who you were talking about lmao.

It's cool that they crammed all their cool minority characters into some dumpster show that nobody watches. That totally excuses the near-total exclusion of anyone but white people from their most popular properties.

If Skye is legitimately a cool character, then good, but that doesn't somehow give Marvel a pass on their otherwise awful minority representation, and it certainly doesn't excuse how shitty people are whenever someone suggests that Marvel cast a white character as a minority.

Except it isn't a shitheap or a dumpster? And just because it's not setting the rating board on fire doesn't mean that "nobody watches it" either.
Also it is part of the MCU, and her character in particular is pretty fucking important so she counts whether you like it or not.

I'm watching it. Can't say I disagree with that description.

I guess we aren't watching the same show.

I'm not. I like the MCU, but I can barely handle the 2.5 hours I watch every six months or so. I can't imagine sitting through an entire season.

So you actually don't like it.

 

[Fmal]

So you actually don't like it.

I'm spending a lot of money, time, and energy watching, thinking and arguing online about something I don't like then.

 

[Nesotenso]

Pros of making Iron Fist an Asian-American:
-More diversity in one of the biggest and most important movie and tv franchises on earth.
-We get to watch butthurt nerds (who totally aren't racist I swear, they just really, really, REALLY care about canon!) get mad.

Cons of making Iron Fist an Asian-American:
-The totally fictional story they tell in the show will be a slightly different from the totally fictional story they're basing everything on.

yeah, now I definitely don't want a racebent Iron Fist

 

[Cyan]

Bumping for this kind of shitshow, really? Make a new thread if there's any new news.