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Rumor: Sony leadership feels that Bungie is a failed investment

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Shocked Patrick Stewart GIF


Maybe next time don't waste money on purchasing companies full of execs that don't know what they are doing
FTFY


And this is the ONE TIME, the ONE TIME............Sony tried to follow Microsoft's lead and copy their strategy and look what it got them. And yet people want them to adopt every PS5 game to be day 1 on PC and put some of their titles on PS+ for free like GamePass. SMH.
 

yurinka

Member
This actually isn't true.


"Though it’s now under the Sony umbrella, Bungie will “continue to independently publish and creatively develop our games,” Bungie CEO Pete Parsons said in a blog post from the original announcement of the acquisition. And future games in development won’t be PlayStation exclusives, Bungie’s Joe Blackburn and Justin Truman said."

The looming threat to Bungie is that Sony will at some point in time (this is happening now in real time) will become displeased with Bungie after the honeymoon period is over, and begin to assert creative and financial control over them, which they didn't/ don't want.
What I said it's 100% true. SIE fully acquired the 100% of the Bungie shares, which means Bungie is a fully owned and controlled subsidiary.

Which is perfectly compatible with allowing Bungie to “continue to independently publish and creatively develop our games”. Which basically means having creative freedom like all the other SIE dev studios from PS Studios, but with Bungie to continue using their Bungie label to continue publishing in rival consoles. Instead of using the PS Studios or SIE Publishing label as publisher.

And also means that Bungie is not a subsidiary of PS Studios, but instead a direct SIE subsidiary. In the same way MS Gaming division has the Xbox Game Studios, Zenimax and Activision Blizzard King publishers, Sony now has PS Studios and Bungie.

And this is the ONE TIME, the ONE TIME............Sony tried to follow Microsoft's lead and copy their strategy and look what it got them. And yet people want them to adopt every PS5 game to be day 1 on PC and put some of their titles on PS+ for free like GamePass. SMH.
The strategies of both companies are very different. As a result Sony is more successful than ever and MS is abandoning their console.

MS's copy of PS Now had an interesting that Sony copied: to have a download only cheaper tier. Everthing else, like expanding to MP, GaaS, mobile or PC is something all AAA publishers have been doing because the budgets every new generation skyrocket, so at some point they need to find new revenue sources and expand to new markets because the AAA budgets become too huge and risky.

MS wasn't leading anything, they always have been the losers of the race. And in any case, even with PC Sony has been since forever in computers: with their MSX in the 80s, later via CSG/Sony Imagesoft and Psygnosis in the 90s, with SOE, with different Sony Music or Sony Pictures companies (like in recent years with Sony Pictures Virtual Reality) or the same SIE directly with no subsidiaries since 2015 or so with Helldivers and others. They just pushed harder now.

Same goes with GaaS, SIE is pushing harder now to grow in the MP area, but before they already had several GaaS like LBP, PS Home, GT Sports and so on.

MS failed over two decades with their consoles, are mainly a software company and have Windows and Azure as main products, so makes sense for them to leave their console, go full multiplatform with Windows as their new main platform and try (and fail) to win Sony and Nintendo in the game subs area since they couldn't compete selling consoles and exclusive games.

Sony instead has been always the market leader of consoles, so they will continue having them as their main gaming business focus. Even if they also expand to PC and mobile, they will remain as a secondary business to generate extra revenue and profit to use that money on their console. So even if they may have GaaS day one everywhere, they'll keep their new non-GaaS titles exclusive at least some time in their console to be bought. They won't put all their games day one on PC -at least until Sony has there their own store- and won't put their games day one on PS+ because their main business is to sell games, not to rent them.

For Sony, game subs or Windows aren't their last hope. For them, game subs and PC are a nice way to get extra revenue and profit with old games that no longer sell anymore so aren't generating anything anymore. And it's better to get some extra millions from them than nothing.
 
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Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
I think this "source" just copied down the writing that's been on the wall.
 

Dorfdad

Gold Member


Popular YouTuber Aztecross received a rather concerning email (starts at 4:35 in the video above) that highlighted internal leadership stuggles between Bungie and Sony from an inside source:



Definitely feels like it's time for Sony to bring down the hammer.

Maybe just maybe it’s time to move on from Destiny! It was great back in the day but it’s over complicated and endless expansions when new games are releasing left and right have reduced its glory. The game hasn't added Anything new to the table since it’s release

Let it go
 
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nial

Gold Member
Sell them off and when you're at it get rid of Hermen too in the process. This shit is on him.
No, it isn't. Hermen Hulst manages PlayStation Studios, Bungie is separate from that.
It's kinda funny how people often look for excuses to hate on Hermen, when most of the time it's always on Jim, lol.
 
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Sonik

Member
These corporate suits are so fucking stupid they make me feel like a genius. They wasted 3.5 billion for one overrated developer, Microsoft gave double that money but for they entirety of Zenimax that has a crapload of development studios and even that wasn't such a good investment given the terrible state of Bethesda and other studios.

Instead of buying promising new studios for MUCH cheaper they're basically admitting they don't understand the industry and buy whatever name is well-known even though most of them are husks of their former selves mainly because of terrible management through the years, ESG bullshit, employees abandoning the sinking ship and so on
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Personally I never understood the investment, but Destiny is also not my cup of tea. I just felt like it was such a gamble no matter how "successful" Destiny was/is. So, I'm sure this is true. I mean, since Sony made the move, I don't feel like Bungie has been some unstoppable force or something.

PlayStation wanted to orient towards GAAS. Bungie dovetailed perfectly with their long term strategy.

it wasn't particularly complicated to see.
 
What I said it's 100% true. SIE fully acquired the 100% of the Bungie shares, which means Bungie is a fully owned and controlled subsidiary.

Which is perfectly compatible with allowing Bungie to “continue to independently publish and creatively develop our games”. Which basically means having creative freedom like all the other SIE dev studios from PS Studios, but with Bungie to continue using their Bungie label to continue publishing in rival consoles. Instead of using the PS Studios or SIE Publishing label as publisher.

And also means that Bungie is not a subsidiary of PS Studios, but instead a direct SIE subsidiary. In the same way MS Gaming division has the Xbox Game Studios, Zenimax and Activision Blizzard King publishers, Sony now has PS Studios and Bungie.
Some of these studios you are lumping together are indeed fully acquired, but they operate as limited integration entities, under the agreements from the close of the acquisition. Meaning they operate independently and retain their own independent operational control. Which is far beyond the creative freedom of a Naughty Dog or a Bend Studio. They might say Sony "let's them make what they want to make", but they don't have any binding legal agreement with Sony that allows them to operate as limited integration entities. Sony could walk in at any moment and direct them to do whatever they want. Which is not the case with Zenimax, Bungie, etc.
 
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nial

Gold Member
MLB and GT7, also released around when they were acquired also are a big success.
Gran Turismo 7 is not GaaS and it launched 4 months before Bungie was acquired. MLB follows a clear, yearly model, so I don't know about that.
I do agree with Helldivers 2, though. Bungie was involved in that game for 1.5 years.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
They have 1.3k devs and besides some shitty d2 expansions and a big drop in revenue since they bought them sony got nothing in 3 years. Will be 4 or 5 when bungie gets the next game out of the door. That's insane and can't just be said its mangement issues. They over hired and dont work efficiently.
So, management issues?
 

yurinka

Member
Gran Turismo 7 is not GaaS and it launched 4 months before Bungie was acquired. MLB follows a clear, yearly model, so I don't know about that.
I do agree with Helldivers 2, though. Bungie was involved in that game for 1.5 years.
Of course Gran Turismo 7 is a GaaS. And Gran Turismo Sport is, too. Both are online games with a long post launch content support with recurrent monetization.

Doesn't matter if also has meaty single player content, many GaaS also have it.

That post launch roadmap and monetization is one of the areas overviewed and reviewed by the SIE Live Center of Excellence. Which btw isn't only Bungie, it's made by the related experts on these areas from SIE Publishing, PS Studios and Bungie combined.

They have 1.3k devs and besides some shitty d2 expansions and a big drop in revenue since they bought them sony got nothing in 3 years. Will be 4 or 5 when bungie gets the next game out of the door. That's insane and can't just be said its mangement issues. They over hired and dont work efficiently.
So, management issues?
SIE acquisition was closed less than 2 years ago. But in any case, AAA games nowadays need more than 3 years to be made.

This doesn't mean management issues, it only means you don't know how long takes to make the AAA games being published this generation.

And well, Bungie released Destiny 2 The Witch Queen in 2022, Destiny 2 Lightfall in 2023, will releaase Destiny 2 The Final Shape in 2024 and Marathon apparently in 2025. Plus have minimum another game under development plus other ones being incubated, movie/tv shows adapations of their IPs in the works, and have been supporting the other Sony GaaS.
 
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DrFigs

Member
Gran Turismo 7 is not GaaS and it launched 4 months before Bungie was acquired. MLB follows a clear, yearly model, so I don't know about that.
I do agree with Helldivers 2, though. Bungie was involved in that game for 1.5 years.
it's not a games as a service, despite being an online only game w/ microtransactions? am i understanding that right? or is it that if you like the game, its not a gaas.
 

FMX

Member
Did you all not see the interview where Phil Spencer flat out said that he didn't feel that Bungie was worth their asking price when asked why they didn't reacquire Bungie. He flat out said this on record himself-- not inside leaked information not paraphrased comment. They suckered Sony or rather Jim Ryan. Xbox does do some stupid things a lot of the time too, but it appears that at least some of the top people are actual gamers. Who didn't know that Bungie was going down the tubes? Aren't you suppose to look at the books before you spend billions?
 

DeaDPo0L84

Member
Maybe just maybe it’s time to move on from Destiny! It was great back in the day but it’s over complicated and endless expansions when new games are releasing left and right have reduced its glory. The game hasn't added Anything new to the table since it’s release

Let it go
I am a fan of Destiny, warts and all, I have been on both sides of the argument through various points in time. But to say the game has added nothing new since release is patently false. The game if anything is almost completely different through it's 8 years of existence, again sometimes good sometimes bad. Their are live service games that come out and are dead with 3-6 months. Destiny has been around for quite some time, you can mock those still playing as morons or having Stockholm-syndrome. Or maybe, just maybe, it can be fun against other options available, and in the end that's mostly what people care about.
 
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Hugare

Member
Last great Bungie game was Halo Reach in 2010, 14 years ago.

Destiny was supposed to be the second coming of Christ and failed hard back then due to immense expectations while being an ok game. It had an insane budget not justified in the final product.

Destiny 2 was good, and it wasnt as hyped as Destiny was, so it did ok. It only survived to this day because Bungie nailed the GAAS model, but the game wasnt amazing or anything.

So I dont know what the fuck Sony saw in Bungie. It's not like them were on a streak of amazing games to justify the high price.

To me they were one failed game away from going from 1 billion to a 250M purchase.
 
All Bungie needs is new leadership.
Since when has Sony been known for curating multiplayer experiences within their first party studios that resonate with the masses? They attempted to compete with Halo's multiplayer success back in the Xbox 360 days with both Killzone and Resistance and neither panned out well on that front.
 

MiguelItUp

Member
PlayStation wanted to orient towards GAAS. Bungie dovetailed perfectly with their long term strategy.

it wasn't particularly complicated to see.
I wasn't implying it was rocket science or hard to understand, just that I didn't get the interest personally due to my own personal bias.

Yes, they wanted to invest into GAAS, they made it abundantly clear. I just still personally think they could've gotten what they needed through various consultations that wouldn't have been so costly.
 
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I think Destiny just needs a complete refresh.

Move on from D2. Start over and RETHINK everything as it relates to content updates.

Newcomers don’t want to touch it, it’s completely chaotic

They need to streamline content, reduce the garbage loot, and find a way to KEEP old content relevant for newcomers and series veterans

I dunno, it may just be too messy at this point and it’s best to move onto a new IP
 
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nial

Gold Member
I was poking fun, I know who he is, but he wasn't anyone that important to SCE. People always confuse the heads of their American branches to be the actual group CEOs, it also happens with Shawn Layden.
Japan studios was like a third of bungie and actually released games on a regularly basis, most likely the most consistent studio with the most innovation in sonys portfolio.

Bungie is way to big and way to ineffectient. Its insane that they have that kinda headcount and did nothing but shitty d2 expansions the last few years. The asking price of 3b$ was a scam.
Japan Studio's internal groups were incompetent as shit, they released absolutely nothing of real value on the PS3, and while the PS4 era was an improvement, it was still too few games for what should be SCEI's main development division.
Most of the games people always associate Japan Studio with (Ape Escape 1-3, The Legend of Dragoon, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus and Siren), were actually developed by SCEJ, Sony's Japanese sales and marketing division that existed until 2013, which stopped developing games in 2005.
Guy now in charge of Japan Studio keeps hiring his foreign Western friends, surrounding himself with yay-sayers who need JP language lessons for several years, instead of hiring local talent. He is wasting that studio away.
They absolutely do, but nice outrage attempt.
it's not a games as a service, despite being an online only game w/ microtransactions? am i understanding that right? or is it that if you like the game, its not a gaas.
It doesn't receive content in a constant manner, and Sony officially does not consider it to be a live service title, so...
 
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Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member


Popular YouTuber Aztecross received a rather concerning email (starts at 4:35 in the video above) that highlighted internal leadership stuggles between Bungie and Sony from an inside source:



Definitely feels like it's time for Sony to bring down the hammer.

Karma
 
FTFY


And this is the ONE TIME, the ONE TIME............Sony tried to follow Microsoft's lead and copy their strategy and look what it got them. And yet people want them to adopt every PS5 game to be day 1 on PC and put some of their titles on PS+ for free like GamePass. SMH.
Day 1 on PC makes sense from a sales perspective. Sony doesn't JUST want to sell consoles, they don't make money on that.
 
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nial

Gold Member
From the top of my head, console exclusives for 2024: Stellar Blade, Helldivers 2, Rise of the Ronin, FFVII Rebirth, ZZZ, Wuthering Waves,

First-party studios are a mess, but third and second parties are picking up the slack with quality content.
""Second-party"" games are still first-party games to SIE (unlike say, Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, they receive all the money for each game sale), so they should be happy with the content provided in H1 2024, which is a vast improvement over 2023 as a whole.
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
Since when has Sony been known for curating multiplayer experiences within their first party studios that resonate with the masses? They attempted to compete with Halo's multiplayer success back in the Xbox 360 days with both Killzone and Resistance and neither panned out well on that front.
Socom?
MAG?
RFOM 1 multiplayer?
Killzone 2/3 multiplayer?

All those had great and healthy communities.

But Sony decided to focus on AAA singleplayer, especially when the narrative of "singleplayer games are dead" was prevalent.

Now, we see Helldivers 2 success and we have to wait how the other games will do.

Of course Gran Turismo 7 is a GaaS. And Gran Turismo Sport is, too. Both are online games with a long post launch content support with recurrent monetization.

Doesn't matter if also has meaty single player content, many GaaS also have it.

That post launch roadmap and monetization is one of the areas overviewed and reviewed by the SIE Live Center of Excellence. Which btw isn't only Bungie, it's made by the related experts on these areas from SIE Publishing, PS Studios and Bungie combined.



SIE acquisition was closed less than 2 years ago. But in any case, AAA games nowadays need more than 3 years to be made.

This doesn't mean management issues, it only means you don't know how long takes to make the AAA games being published this generation.

And well, Bungie released Destiny 2 The Witch Queen in 2022, Destiny 2 Lightfall in 2023, will releaase Destiny 2 The Final Shape in 2024 and Marathon apparently in 2025. Plus have minimum another game under development plus other ones being incubated, movie/tv shows adapations of their IPs in the works, and have been supporting the other Sony GaaS.
I was talking Bungie specifically. Everything that happened with Destiny boils down to their management, from the clusterfuck developments of both Destiny games, to cut content from D2, to the Eververse.

If someone wants to lump in overhiring employees and inefficient production, that's on Bungie management as well.
 
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yurinka

Member
Some of these studios you are lumping together are indeed fully acquired, but they operate as limited integration entities, under the agreements from the close of the acquisition. Meaning they operate independently and retain their own independent operational control. Which is far beyond the creative freedom of a Naughty Dog or a Bend Studio. They might say Sony "let's them make what they want to make", but they don't have any binding legal agreement with Sony that allows them to operate as limited integration entities. Sony could walk in at any moment and direct them to do whatever they want. Which is not the case with Zenimax, Bungie, etc.
Every single -fully owned or not- subsidiary company of every single corporation operate independently because they are companies themselves.

But being a subsidiary means they have a boss who they have to obey and follow the strategy and whatever that boss decide.

In this case, Sony wanted to grow in the MP, GaaS, shooters areas and get revenue and profits from non-PS platforms. Plus also to get GaaS top expertise and knowledge. So bought Bungie for that. The strategies and goals of both were aligned, so didn't change anything at Bungie and did include them as a SIE subsidiary with their own publishing label but not under PS Studios, to differentiate that Bungie games will continue in rival consoles while PS Studios will remain console exclusive.

As a fully owned subsidiary, SIE can do whatever they want with them. If tomorrow Jim Ryan or whoever his successor is after Totoki's interim CEO period want to change something in Bungie, like to cancel all their games and to put them to make Knack VR games instead they'll do it because it's their fully owned subsidiary.

I was talking Bungie specifically. Everything that happened with Destiny boils down to their management, from the clusterfuck developments of both Destiny games, to cut content from D2, to the Eververse.

If someone wants to lump in overhiring employees and inefficient production, that's on management as well.
Totoki said that Bungie firing around 100 people was something Bungie already had planned since they closed the acquisition due to acquisition related redundancies.

Meaning, Sony already have people in areas like marketing, publishing, HR, CM, QA, IT etc for all their games, so Bungie could reduce their internal teams for these and other areas because Sony already have people doing that job.

When Bungie was acquired they were around 900 people. Kept growing and when made that layoff decreased from around 1200 to around 1100. Since then they kept growing and now are around 1500-1600.

So there's no overhiring or actions or firings, or signs of supposed inefficient production. Destiny 2 kept releasing their yearly expansions, and had a small delay on the next one and appaarently Marathon too, normal things in game development.
 
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Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
I wasn't implying it was rocket science or hard to understand, just that I didn't get the interest personally due to my own personal bias.

Yes, they wanted to invest into GAAS, they made it abundantly clear. I just still personally think they could've gotten what they needed through various consultations that wouldn't have been so costly.

I suspect it's difficult to get a Marathon (will be bigger than GAF wants) from "various consultations".

People want to judge the Bungie acquisition before seeing the Bungie acquisition. It's weird.
 
ha, it’s funny when Microsoft worked with Bungie it was “MS BAD, BUNGIE NO HAVE CREATIVE FREEDOM”

Now Sony have bought them and within around 2 years, are looking to do a hostile takeover.

Bungie flourished under Microsoft, flourished some more after Microsoft let them go and now Sony have them, they look to be going under pretty quick.
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
ha, it’s funny when Microsoft worked with Bungie it was “MS BAD, BUNGIE NO HAVE CREATIVE FREEDOM”

Now Sony have bought them and within around 2 years, are looking to do a hostile takeover.

Bungie flourished under Microsoft, flourished some more after Microsoft let them go and now Sony have them, they look to be going under pretty quick.
They were going under on their own, messing up two launches and terrible handling of D2.

They still work independently under Sony.

You're kind of being a revisionist.
 

Boss Mog

Member
They should have Bungie making a new Halo-esque IP. Anything else is a waste. Sony lacks 1st party titles with co-op campaigns. Even with Spider-man 2, which would've been perfect for it, they didn't do it.
 

yurinka

Member
It doesn't receive content in a constant manner, and Sony officially does not consider it to be a live service title, so...
Sony and any game development or any person who knows what a GaaS/live service game is obviously considers GT7 a GaaS/live service game.

Sony absolutely never said GT7 isn't a GaaS or that doesn't consider it as one.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
Every single -fully owned or not- subsidiary company of every single corporation operate independently because they are companies themselves.

But being a subsidiary means they have a boss who they have to obey and follow the strategy and whatever that boss decide.

In this case, Sony wanted to grow in the MP, GaaS, shooters areas and get revenue and profits from non-PS platforms. Plus also to get GaaS top expertise and knowledge. So bought Bungie for that. The strategies and goals of both were aligned, so didn't change anything at Bungie and did include them as a SIE subsidiary with their own publishing label but not under PS Studios, to differentiate that Bungie games will continue in rival consoles while PS Studios will remain console exclusive.

As a fully owned subsidiary, SIE can do whatever they want with them. If tomorrow Jim Ryan or whoever his successor is after Totoki's interim CEO period want to change something in Bungie, like to cancel all their games and to put them to make Knack VR games instead they'll do it because it's their fully owned subsidiary.


Totoki said that Bungie firing around 100 people was something Bungie already had planned since they closed the acquisition due to acquisition related redundancies.

Meaning, Sony already have people in areas like marketing, publishing, HR, CM, QA, IT etc for all their games, so Bungie could reduce their internal teams for these and other areas because Sony already have people doing that job.

When Bungie was acquired they were around 900 people. Kept growing and when made that layoff decreased from around 1200 to around 1100. Since then they kept growing and now are around 1500-1600.

So there's no overhiring or actions or firings, or signs of supposed inefficient production. Destiny 2 kept releasing their yearly expansions, and had a small delay on the next one and appaarently Marathon too, normal things in game development.
I wasn't the one who made claims about overhiring or inefficiency.
All I said was if that were the case, it would be an issue with Bungie management as well.
 
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yurinka

Member
Lol, I know you've seen the chart.
The chart misses several other Sony GaaS, which according to you then means they aren't GaaS. And also misses several non-GaaS SP franchises, which according to you then should mean Sony doesn't consider them single player games.

That doesn't make any sense.

The chart only shown a few examples to illustrate that until now Sony was very focused on single player non-GaaS games, and wanted to also grow in the future in the MP GaaS area. Obviously it wasn't supposed to be a complete list and obviously didn't mean that games not listed there weren't considered to be that.

Gran Turismo 7 is both a meaty single player game and a MP GaaS, so had to be in both sides. In the chart there was a limited space so they only chosen a few examples that were clear cases of each group. In addition to this, GT Sports already was GaaS so Gran Turismo wasn't an illustrative change of their new focus to grow in GaaS.

They did put there MLB in the GaaS column because back then that series just had expanded to GaaS that year.
 
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kevm3

Member
Can you even blame Bungie though? Just about all of Sony's divisions have been underwhelming this gen with the exception of many Insomniac. I can't think of anyone else releasing a game regularly that wasn't a remake.
 

nial

Gold Member
The chart misses several other Sony GaaS, which according to you then means they aren't GaaS.
Which ones?
And also misses several non-GaaS SP franchises, which according to you then should mean Sony doesn't consider them single player games.
Fuck, I now remember having this exact conversation with you last year, but again, that section was pretty much full of examples, while the GaaS one ONLY had one game included, which should leave space for several more. I don't know who you are trying to fool, lol.
Gran Turismo 7 is both a meaty single player game and a MP GaaS, so had to be in both sides.
Do you realize that if this was the case, they would have put it, anyway?
 
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