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[Tacitus_]

well, i disliked how unit upgrade paths were external and limited in scope. i would much rather research siege mode every game i want or need it than buy siege mode and find myself in a game situation where i would prefer blue flame but cannot access it because the money system has a limited amount below the sum cost of mercenaries/all upgrades. if they had to make it external, i feel it should also have been grindable to some extent.

there is some merit to forcing people to make do, but i dont feel that was blizzards intention since most games grant you mission specific units/tech at the start.

Siege tech came with the tanks already. While I get your complaint, the system they used could get you hilariously overpowered upgrades like the +40dmg to siege tank primary target and -75% splash to your units.

It was a conscious decision to make what upgrades you wanted for a campaign run since you couldn't get everything.

 

[V_Arnold]

you are not the original claim maker, so you are not the leader.
syllogism is. he claimed the game was objectively better than sc1/bw, you agreed. beyond that you accused me of denial for even asking for an argument.

Yeah. You keep repeating that an RTS should have the RTS core in single player, whereas you HAVE the RTS core in WOL's single player also, even if it IS more varied and laid back than the multiplayer. You say it is bad. I ask: Why?

If your meausure is strictly this: "How close the single player plays to the multiplayer part?", then yes, WOL is not as a good singleplayer-wise as BW/SC1 was. If your measure is "How varied the gameplay is, which one is more original design/gameplay-wise?", then the answer is WOL. Now I know, you will keep coming back at me saying "prove it" - well, WOL is out there, no need to further prove what is already in the game.

well, i disliked how unit upgrade paths were external and limited in scope. i would much rather research siege mode every game i want or need it than buy siege mode and find myself in a game situation where i would prefer blue flame but cannot access it because the money system has a limited amount below the sum cost of mercenaries/all upgrades. if they had to make it external, i feel it should also have been grindable to some extent.

there is some merit to forcing people to make do, but i dont feel that was blizzards intention since most games grant you mission specific units/tech at the start.

A LOT of people had complaints that at the start of every level, you gotta start researching the same stuff over and over again. And yeah, it is kinda dumb. In multiplayer, you are coming from nowhere, but in a campaign, you do not. You have a background, that is why it is a campaign, not a skirmish.

 

[Pandaman]

A.) You make it seem as though the game is on auto pilot when it is actually not.

interesting change of tone from the guy who said i was exagerating the difficulty of sc1.

You still have to worry about macro, positioning and unit compilation.

hahahahaha.

The only difference is between the two scenarios is that it didn't spend 10 minutes building up my base.

building up your base IS macro. unit compilation is hugely effected by how you build your base. its perfectly fine to want to do something absurd like 5rax reaper into mass raven, but you have to accept that the constraint against those comisition switches is based on efficient base construction and management. you cant do 5rax reaper and dump gas into starport tech thats an important part of rts gameplay in starcraft.

B.) You're backing up your opinions with claims such as SC2 is too easy and it places artificial constants on the player. You're are taking your opinion and attempting to justify it with facts.

That is a argument.

it's a curious fact that while most people are quite capable of holding two separate lines of thought at once, its only on forums that people insist that they must always be connected.

If I say abortion is wrong, that is a opinion. If I say Abortion is wrong because of X, Y and Z that is a argument.

if i say stamp collecting is evil and should be banned, should you have to explain the merits of stamp collecting? No. you're perfectly welcome too if you so wish, but its not required of you. reasonable people accept that you can say absolutely nothing and have your hobby protected against baseless claims, reasonable people also accept that should you choose to explain the merits of stamp collecting, stamp collecting will not instantly become evil if your own personal reasons are lackluster. this is because the burden of proof typically lies on the person making a claim [like sc2 is objectively better than sc1 campaign-wise].

Please reconsider the use of analogies next time you have a discussion with someone, its not doing you many favours.

 

[Pandaman]

Siege tech came with the tanks already. While I get your complaint, the system they used could get you hilariously overpowered upgrades like the +40dmg to siege tank primary target and -75% splash to your units.

It was a conscious decision to make what upgrades you wanted for a campaign run since you couldn't get everything.

siege was just an example. how bout stim?

I would say that while the grinding path carries the risk of overloading upgrades early on or slowing upgrade unlocks and limiting options, i would still have preferred it to the current system. making people suffer consequences of a choice is all well and good, but when the gameplay is typically defined by the constraints of the mission rather than an overarching standard its questionable design. I cant know if the next, next, next mission would have some odd constraint that could make my tech-path useless, so i feel all available tech-paths should be available through a sufficient amount of effort. a replacement system could be exp leveling in the place of cash or a price increase with every purchase. this way players are not punished for making uninformed and unrectifiable decisions.

 

[Tacitus_]

siege was just an example. how bout stim?

I would say that while the grinding path carries the risk of overloading upgrades early on or slowing upgrade unlocks and limiting options, i would still have preferred it to the current system. making people suffer consequences of a choice is all well and good, but when the gameplay is typically defined by the constraints of the mission rather than an overarching standard its questionable design. I cant know if the next, next, next mission would have some odd constraint that could make my tech-path useless, so i feel all available tech-paths should be available through a sufficient amount of effort. a replacement system could be exp leveling in the place of cash or a price increase with every purchase. this way players are not punished for making uninformed and unrectifiable decisions.

Yeah, the system is better when you know what you want and when, but it's not like you could make exceptionally bad decisions. Stim is a very obvious (and cheap) upgrade early in the game and most of the upgrades effectiveness depend on how you play the game. Personally I love tank play so I always get the tank upgrades, but they are hardly necessary for completing the game - with maybe the exception of All In where the -75% friendly splash is amazing - but you can complete the mission with a different strategy or just use more repairing SCVs.

 

[mescalineeyes]

I am not sure StarCraft 2's campaign is worth the vitriol and thought you guys put into your posts.

It's a really dull, dumb campaign with a below-average story.

I am starting to be surprised how they managed to pull off a multiplayer that is somewhat competent.

 

[Pandaman]

Yeah, the system is better when you know what you want and when, but it's not like you could make exceptionally bad decisions. Stim is a very obvious (and cheap) upgrade early in the game and most of the upgrades effectiveness depend on how you play the game. Personally I love tank play so I always get the tank upgrades, but they are hardly necessary for completing the game - with maybe the exception of All In where the -75% friendly splash is amazing - but you can complete the mission with a different strategy or just use more repairing SCVs.

yep, some things are just safe and there's nothing that'll actually horribly hurt you. my solution also has the pokemon grinding problem where you grind one guy into the lategame and then run into a type advantage and find yourself having to grindgrindgrind to fix it.

personally though once i got vultures and goliaths, i didnt need any new tech. :> spider mines and charon boosters. soooo goooood.

 

[raphier]

I am not sure StarCraft 2's campaign is worth the vitriol and thought you guys put into your posts.

It's a really dull, dumb campaign with a below-average story.

I am starting to be surprised how they managed to pull off a multiplayer that is somewhat competent.

the difference is, you don't need tweest in multiplayer. How can you be so surprised?
Blizz needs better writers or atleast new bunch of them.

 

[Yoshichan]

First of all: What the flying FUCK did Panda do to my thread+

Second of all:

We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units and we're going to try to make it really great, but a ton of the work is going to go into single player.

PleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentries

Edit: Also, change the fact how warp-in works... it's just wrong at its' current state.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

PleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentriesPleasebesentries

Edit: Also, change the fact how warp-in works... it's just wrong at its' current state.

So basically you want them to remove Protoss and replace them with a new race.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Edit: Also, change the fact how warp-in works... it's just wrong at its' current state.

What would you change about warp-in?

 

[Pandaman]

So basically you want them to remove Protoss and replace them with a new race.

called protoss. they were good in sc1.

 

[Yoshichan]

What would you change about warp-in?

I was waiting for someone to ask this and here's the problem: I myself tried coming up with a solution for many, many months. It just can't be done. The ideas I have is quite terrible. However, Blizzard is a company of 500000000000 men, and I'm just a lousy terran peasant. So I have hopes.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

called protoss. they were good in sc1.

And they're good in SC2.

 

[Q8D3vil]

What would you change about warp-in?

it is retarded and op.
it won't happen but putting a radius would be cool.

 

[Yoshichan]

The Giantbomb interview informed us that Kerrigan will be in almost every mission in the singleplayer campaign.

 

[mescalineeyes]

stuff like warp-ins and forcefields pretty much negate the very essence of an RTS game.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

ITT Diamond league Zerg players.

 

[Yoshichan]

stuff like warp-ins and forcefields pretty much negate the very essence of an RTS game.

Forcefields denies micro and warp-in denies macro?

 

[elrechazado]

You all fell for one of the classic blunders - most well known is "never get involved in a land war in asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never discuss sc2 balance with pandaman"

 

[mescalineeyes]

fuck it, I'll let Panda handle this.

zvp is my best matchup, fwiw.

Forcefields denies micro and warp-in denies macro?

no, warp-in denies defenders advantage.

I am not commenting on balance, I am merely questioning the decision to include these sort-of mechanics in a competitive focused RTS game.

 

[pieatorium]

it is retarded and op.
it won't happen but putting a radius would be cool.

imo the volitility of zvp early game is related to warp in vs inject, the waves of reinforcements swing things too quickly one way or another

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

no, warp-in denies defenders advantage.

I am not commenting on balance, I am merely questioning the decision to include these sort-of mechanics in a competitive focused RTS game.

No, it just lessens defender's advantage for T and Z, while increasing defender's advantage for P. Protoss is the least mobile so they need this sort of mechanic, what league are you in?

 

[mescalineeyes]

Protoss is the least mobile

what league are *you* in?

 

[Yoshichan]

Protoss is the least mobile

wat wat wat wat wat

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

what league are *you* in?

Borderline Grandmaster, and my brother is a Terran in Grandmaster.

wat wat wat wat wat

wat wat wat

 

[Pandaman]

ITT Diamond league Zerg players.

call me when you're knocking out grandmasters pro's from tourneys.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

call me when you're knocking out grandmasters pro's from tourneys.

Will do when I start playing again properly, been on a 3 month hiatus due to exams. My brother has beaten a fair share though, including Idra.

 

[mescalineeyes]

looks like us lowly diamond players have no place in this discussion about game design.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

As for forcefields, one idea would be to give them HP (albeit a relatively high number). Still useful in early game for preventing rushes, but decrease in power as the game progresses and armies max out. Along with that idea, another twist on that implementation would be to prevent certain types of damage (e.g. light) from doing much to the forcefields while allowing beefier units to do more damage.

Another option would be to change forcefields from being omnidirectional obstructions to being more like one-way doors or something in that vein. There would have to a lot of work on implementing it properly (since forcefields work just like all the other AoE spells right now) and micro with them would become more difficult.

Regarding warp-in: I'll get back to you if I come up with something.

 

[Pandaman]

Borderline Grandmaster, and my brother is a Terran in Grandmaster.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431405
see you there.

Will do when I start playing again properly, been on a 3 month hiatus due to exams. My brother has beaten a fair share though, including Idra.

so not borderline grandmaster then.

dont worry, i dont ladder either.

 

[Dooraven]

So wait, what exactly is the least mobile race then? Mech Terran is the only thing thats more immobile than a Protoss ground army. Especially against drop.

Blink stalkers and Phoenix (situational) are really the only thing Protoss has to be mobile.

 

[AppleMIX]

Edit: It's not even worth my time.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=431405
see you there.

I don't have a US account, I play on Europe.

So wait, what exactly is the least mobile race then? Mech Terran is the only thing thats more immobile than a Protoss ground army. Especially against drop.

Blink stalkers and Phoenix (situational) are really the only thing Protoss has to be mobile.

Exactly, Protoss armies very rarely split up, that's why you see people talking about Protoss 'deathballs'.

looks like us lowly diamond players have no place in this discussion about game design.

Not when you make ridiculously bold claims such as "warp-ins and forcefields pretty much negate the very essence of an RTS game."

 

[Pandaman]

So wait, what exactly is the least mobile race then?

terran. they have to make the heaviest concessions to army longevity to maintain a mobility advantage over toss. toss just has to have a food buffer when moving out. mobility isnt as much about speed as it is about expanding areas where you are 'safe'. speed is the easiest way to do that because it increases the amount of distance you can travel in a certain time frame, but information is also important.

for terran to be mobile, he has to have information in advance or units fast enough to act from distance given a lack of forewarning. terran isnt particularly good at either of those things. not bad, but average. warpins and observers make it much easier for a toss to feel safe and when you feel safe you can move further from home.

 

[pieatorium]

I don't have a US account, I play on Europe.

I have a question, how are you borderline GM if you havent played in 3 months? GM league only came into being a few weeks ago.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

terran. they have to make the heaviest concessions to army longevity to maintain a mobility advantage over toss. toss just has to have a food buffer when moving out.

Terran bio is most certainly much much much more mobile than Protoss anything, Terran mech however is less mobile, but when we talk about the race as a whole the answer is clear.

I have a question, how are you borderline GM if you havent played in 3 months? GM league only came into being a few weeks ago.

It was a few months ago actually, and it's because I've barely played since Season 2, but when I did play I was very close to that level. I was also able to go like 60-40 with my brother who is GM.

 

[mescalineeyes]

I have a question, how are you borderline GM if you havent played in 3 months? GM league only came into being a few weeks ago.

makes the dick waving easier.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

makes the dick waving easier.

What league are you in then?

 

[mescalineeyes]

Terran bio is most certainly much much much more mobile than Protoss anything, Terran mech however is less mobile, but when we talk about the race as a whole the answer is clear.

Protoss Stalker
Speed: 2.9531 (+blink) (+warp-in)

Terran Marine
Speed: 2.25 (+1.125 stim)

yup, the answer is clear.

What league are you in then?

the one with basic reading comprehension.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

Protoss Stalker
Speed: 2.9531 (+blink) (+warp-in)

Terran Marine
Speed: 2.25 (+1.125 stim)

yup, the answer is clear.



the one with basic reading comprehension.

So basically, you're not very good. I want to have a meaningful discussion, but if you post stupid crap like that there isn't much I can say.

 

[mescalineeyes]

So basically, you're not very good. I want to have a meaningful discussion, but if you post stupid crap like that there isn't much I can say.

going by your definition of league placement, I am borderline masters. aka Diamond, as I stated above.

so yeah at least I back up my arguments unlike certain borderline grandmasters players.

 

[AppleMIX]

So basically, you're not very good. I want to have a meaningful discussion, but if you post stupid crap like that there isn't much I can say.

How dare he back up his arguments with facts!

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

going by your definition of league placement, I am borderline masters. aka Diamond, as I stated above.

That's pretty bad.

How dare he back up his arguments with facts!

Unit stats without any context don't have much relevance.

Viking Speed 2.75 (Air)
Phoenix Speed 4.25

OMG PROTOSS MORE MOBILE????

 

[Dooraven]

Protoss Stalker
Speed: 2.9531 (+blink) (+warp-in)

Terran Marine
Speed: 2.25 (+1.125 stim)

Are you seriously being obtuse on purpose or do you not understand TvP at all?

 

[mescalineeyes]

That's pretty bad.


Unit stats without any context don't have much relevance.

then please put them into context for me so I understand your point about mobility.

oh and thanks, much appreciated. but I guess I failed way back when I didn't pick easy mode.

 

[Pandaman]

Terran bio is most certainly much much much more mobile than Protoss anything, Terran mech however is less mobile, but when we talk about the race as a whole the answer is clear.

mobility isnt as much about speed as it is about expanding areas where you are 'safe'. speed is the easiest way to do that because it increases the amount of distance you can travel in a certain time frame, but information is also important.

For terran to be mobile, he has to have information in advance or units fast enough to act from distance given a lack of forewarning. terran isnt particularly good at either of those things. not bad, but average. warpins and observers make it much easier for a toss to feel safe and when you feel safe you can move further from home.

terran mobility is only a problem if you've seceded map control or been contained. protoss ain't so bad at breaking contains, so drop play will only be a problem when your build puts you in a situation where t can afford to cross the map and cut 10 supply per dropship from his army without risk of reprisal.

i think we can agree that unless terran commits to some seriously aggressive bio play before CC, its usually the toss holding the xel naga towers and sitting at the terrans nat.

 

[pieatorium]

So basically, you're not very good. I want to have a meaningful discussion, but if you post stupid crap like that there isn't much I can say.

once the toss moves out of collosus tech ther are as mobile or moreso than terran, and when they are in collosus mode terran are limited by their vikings which are also slow. Medivacs add to terran mobility but are manageable with warp ins.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

mobility isnt as much about speed as it is about expanding areas where you are 'safe'. speed is the easiest way to do that because it increases the amount of distance you can travel in a certain time frame, but information is also important.

For terran to be mobile, he has to have information in advance or units fast enough to act from distance given a lack of forewarning. terran isnt particularly good at either of those things. not bad, but average. warpins and observers make it much easier for a toss to feel safe and when you feel safe you can move further from home.

terran mobility is only a problem if you've seceded map control or been contained. protoss ain't so bad at breaking contains, so drop play will only be a problem when your build puts you in a situation where t can afford to cross the map and cut 10 supply per dropship from his army without risk of reprisal.

i think we casn agree that unless terran commits to some seriously aggressive bio play before CC, its usually the toss holding the xel naga towers and sitting at the terrans nat.

Mobility is about map control and map presence, things that Terran normally has in TvP when going Bio. Being able to split your army effectively is a very important part of map control and map presence (Terran can split their army easily, it's very dangerous for Protoss), the Phoenix provides this, but Phoenix builds are not very common in TvP (for a variety of reasons).

In the very early stages of the game Terran can easily obtain map control and presence with 1 Rax Reaper/Marauder expansions, and later on in the game Terran can obtain it via Medivacs.

once the toss moves out of collosus tech ther are as mobile or moreso than terran, and when they are in collosus mode terran are limited by their vikings which are also slow. Medivacs add to terran mobility but are manageable with warp ins.

This just totally isn't true.

 

[V_Arnold]

Protoss have bad mobility? When stalker is de facto one of the fastest ground units in the game, and Zealots have speed upgrade? Dude...