godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
He is right, and that doesn't make me enjoy them any less. I am not sure why some people who enjoy these movies have to feel offended.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Scorcese says Marvel films are essentially 'theme parks', 'not cinema'
- Thread starter Revolutionary
- Start date
jadedm17
Member
I disagree: Anyone who watchs to watch Captain America 2 tomorrow let me know. And the next. And next.
I get what hes saying but i dont buy it, its like the shade critics throw at animated movies but i watched Zootopia three days in a row when it hit blu ray.
Absurd is all ive got.
Not enough to do anything but it does come off as disingenuine and trying to cut down something you csnt argue has gotten BIG. And for many solid reasons.
The Marvel movies arent all homeruns but trying to lessen what theyve accomplished is odd. The same sense stands here as critics that turn their nose at CGI films like Zootopia or Big Hero 6 : It feels like they are missing a lot of the central themes of the movie : Heart, teamwork, never giving up. Etc. The big action pieces are great big their inner demons and personal drama are what make these movies. Iron Man is more the a cool suit of armour.
Last edited:
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
It's theme park cinema
Seriously though, he's clearly generalizing because there are a handful of Marvel movies that break the mold, but most are little more than theme parks. Most of them even have the same third act, filled with CG fighting that makes me want to fall asleep.
Again with the jealousy claim. The director of Taxi Driver, Goodfellas, etc. is totes jealous of Captain Marvel!Come on, dude. That is in no way a rational thought.
As for getting emotional while watching these films: yes - that's what they are designed to do at those specific moments when the music swells and there is forced sentimentality for character A B or C. Didn't your heart swell when Captain Marvel's mentor guy died? I don't even remember his name but it was oh so sad.
Dr. Erskine. I haven't seen "The First Avenger" in ages and I remembered that.
Then again, I can rewatch that movie and enjoy ever bit of it like the last few times I've seen it. Been a couple of years tho.
sol_bad
Member
Can't be angry at Scorsese because he makes so many incredible films. All I need to take away from his quote his that he has never finished a comic book film. We don't even know if he understands what an MCU film is in his head. For all we know, the only Marvel movies he has tried to watch is X-Men 1, Raimo Spider-Man 1 and Fantastic Four and then he never bothered again.
Does anyone have the actual question quoted that he was asked?
At the end of the day, he has never watched a full Marvel film so his viewpoint is invalid.
James Gunn, The Russo Brothers, John Favreau, Ryan Coogler, Taikaa Waititi, Shane Black, Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely, Joss Whedon, Scott Derrickson and Jon Watts all had their own creative thoughts on their individual films and visual styles are all very individual to each film. They all cared about creating a good story with good characters. If someone can't see the individual styles of each director than I'd argue that that someone doesn't know as much about cinema as they think they do.
Does anyone have the actual question quoted that he was asked?
At the end of the day, he has never watched a full Marvel film so his viewpoint is invalid.
James Gunn, The Russo Brothers, John Favreau, Ryan Coogler, Taikaa Waititi, Shane Black, Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely, Joss Whedon, Scott Derrickson and Jon Watts all had their own creative thoughts on their individual films and visual styles are all very individual to each film. They all cared about creating a good story with good characters. If someone can't see the individual styles of each director than I'd argue that that someone doesn't know as much about cinema as they think they do.
Last edited:
It's not like you actually need to watch this crap. They are all the same thing, over and over
brap
Banned
Which generic children's anime are you talking about here? Those themes have been covered a trillion times before in a trillion different movies. What grown adult actually cares about that stuff anymore?
I love how you're acting as if these movies are so amazing and complex. Nigga it's fuckin superhero movies and he's an old man. You really think he gives enough of a shit to actually watch them? Dude is 76. I'm sure he knows what he likes.
sol_bad
Member
lmao
I'm just saying that people who are angry at Scorsese shouldn't be angry at him. He can like and not like what he wants, he can watch and not watch what he wants.
godhandiscen
There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
It's not about diminishing Marvel's accomplishments, but a matter of semantics. Escorcesse believes "cinema" is the artistic pursuit through film, and he doesn't see that in Marvel movies. You can deliver a film that is great at being artistic and entertaining at once,, but Marvel isn't shy about pursuing maximum satisfaction for the viewer above all else. We live in an era in which people seek instant gratification, and cinema has evolved to deliver that in full doses. The Marvel movie is the ultimate example.
TheSadRanger
Banned
The way Marvel movies approach violence is childish with it's cartoon portrayal of real human actors engaged in violent activity.
When Scorsese shows violence in his movies it's not be gratuitous, it's to show that violence in real life is bloody and disturbing. It should not be taken lightly. For instance if Scosese directed a movie with Falcon in it he would probably fly into a fight just get shot in the head by some random dude and die.
Marvel movies are self indulgent power fantasies and that's okay.
sol_bad
Member
The weird thing for me is when Sony/Fox/Universal were all making their separate Marvel films, people weren't hollering how trash they were. And they really were trash. Films like Ghostrider, Daredevil, Elektra, Chris Evan's Fantastic Four and Punisher.
Their quality level is so bad compared to the MCU films. But nowadays people want to jump on the Disney/MCU hate bandwagon.
So weird.
Their quality level is so bad compared to the MCU films. But nowadays people want to jump on the Disney/MCU hate bandwagon.
So weird.
Radical Dreamer
Member
I think I'd enjoy marvel movies if it weren't for constant quips and stupid sarcastic one-liners. If they tuned down comedy and make them more dark I think I'd manage to sit through most of these. One day I tried to watch ragnarok on netflix and couldn't make it past 10 minutes...
brap
Banned
Punisher War Zone > every MCU film
Also nobody even liked those movies anyway. They came out and everybody forgot about them. MCU shit started when I was in fucking middle school and I'm almost 30. People have had enough.
thekenta
Member
Just because Scorsese doesn't like Marvel films, doesn't mean you can't enjoy them, you know.
The man has done more for this medium than you can imagine and I would bet that every single one of the Marvel directors was in one way or another inspired by him or look up to him.
He is entitled to his opinion, just like the rest of us and if he doesn't enjoy popcorn flicks, so be it.
The man has done more for this medium than you can imagine and I would bet that every single one of the Marvel directors was in one way or another inspired by him or look up to him.
He is entitled to his opinion, just like the rest of us and if he doesn't enjoy popcorn flicks, so be it.
Last edited:
ROMhack
Member
You know what I think is a good comparison here - graphic novels.
I won't pretend to be an expert but there's reason to argue that certain graphic novels have always been of much higher quality than their comic book peers (e.g. Maus). For better or worse, what we see translated into film with those same comic books is largely a reflection of the roots of that medium, which was never designed to be thought provoking at all.
Again, no issue with this. Not many people here are arguing that superhero movies are of high quality but, again, you can see why Scorsese doesn't like them. I reckon there's probably a lot of people who started with comic books and moved into graphic novels who also now consider comic books as being a bit pants by comparison. And they'd probably be right.
I won't pretend to be an expert but there's reason to argue that certain graphic novels have always been of much higher quality than their comic book peers (e.g. Maus). For better or worse, what we see translated into film with those same comic books is largely a reflection of the roots of that medium, which was never designed to be thought provoking at all.
Again, no issue with this. Not many people here are arguing that superhero movies are of high quality but, again, you can see why Scorsese doesn't like them. I reckon there's probably a lot of people who started with comic books and moved into graphic novels who also now consider comic books as being a bit pants by comparison. And they'd probably be right.
Darkroronoa
Member
Most marvel superhero movies are entirely forgettable popcorn fun.
I watch almost all of them and i enjoy them but i also agree with scorsese that they are not really cinema at an artistic level.
Only decent one that tried to reach a higher quality was infinity war, and then they made endgame which was back to theme park movies.
I watch almost all of them and i enjoy them but i also agree with scorsese that they are not really cinema at an artistic level.
Only decent one that tried to reach a higher quality was infinity war, and then they made endgame which was back to theme park movies.
Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
It's just chess piece fiction, for what a comic series could accomplish in a few months it took the MCU over a decade. It's for popcorn munchers and people who wanna be virgins/nerds without actually trying. He ain't wrong.
lyan
Member
Its nothing wrong for some
Indeed, while I think there is nothing wrong to enjoy theme parks or fastfood, the insecurity some people have towards their interest baffles me.
Fox Mulder
Member
He’s not wrong really. These movies never win oscars or anything, they’re just fun.
Even the new Joker film with all its praise is inspired and compared to Taxi Driver or The King of Comedy.
Even the new Joker film with all its praise is inspired and compared to Taxi Driver or The King of Comedy.
sol_bad
Member
I was 16/17 when Blade 1 came out, 37 now.
Feck.
You saying that War Zone is better than anything in the MCU just means you like corny trashy films, that's cool.
People haven't had enough, each film nearly makes a billion dollars.
HaveButOneLife
Banned
Because it's cheesy.
Azurro
Banned
Seriously? Scorsese has a great descriptor for it. Very well made movies, with good actors that take you for a fun ride, you get off and you forget about it. They have a very clear template, really say nothing, have few consequences. It's a ride, something fun to do on the weekend. Very few MCU movies don't fit this description.
Last edited:
S
slugbahr
Unconfirmed Member
Scorcese ... Cinema must be high Art. Anything else is beneath me. Art is thought provoking! Not entertainment!!
Some movie goers ... Pffft! Whatevs, man. That's just, like, your opinion.
Most of the posters in this thread .... His opinion is the correct one!! Stop enjoying fun things!!
Some posters ... He/you/we all can think whatever we want, and watch whatever we want - it's not hurting anyone.
Other posters ... Members of the Movies-are-just-entertainment Defend Force are Marvel/Disney shills and don't have independent thought.
slugbahr .... Either Scorcese is a pretentious git, or his words are being taken out of context. He is just one person - his take on things isn't going to bother me.
Some movie goers ... Pffft! Whatevs, man. That's just, like, your opinion.
Most of the posters in this thread .... His opinion is the correct one!! Stop enjoying fun things!!
Some posters ... He/you/we all can think whatever we want, and watch whatever we want - it's not hurting anyone.
Other posters ... Members of the Movies-are-just-entertainment Defend Force are Marvel/Disney shills and don't have independent thought.
slugbahr .... Either Scorcese is a pretentious git, or his words are being taken out of context. He is just one person - his take on things isn't going to bother me.
Radical Dreamer
Member
everything okay buddy?
It's Jeff
Banned
Man, art is expression designed to illicit an emotion. Doing so with a large audience is even more difficult.
Anybody here watch Eighth Grade? I Choked up pretty hard. I didn't get weepy when Spider-Man poofed out in Infinity War, but a lot of kids did. Different audiences and complexities do not define one as art over the other.
Little arrogant to call out Marvel movies like this. Let them do their thing and you keep doing yours, Martin.
Anybody here watch Eighth Grade? I Choked up pretty hard. I didn't get weepy when Spider-Man poofed out in Infinity War, but a lot of kids did. Different audiences and complexities do not define one as art over the other.
Little arrogant to call out Marvel movies like this. Let them do their thing and you keep doing yours, Martin.
Azurro
Banned
You...you ok dude? I don't think anyone is saying that people can't enjoy MCU movies. Scorsese just sees it from cinema as an art form perspective, well, they aren't.
It's difficult to disagree really. They are very entertaining, but they are also transparently an entertainment product that's not meant to be taken too seriously.
Domisto
Member
Jeez, some old geezer says he thinks comic book movies are shallow and because he used the wrong words people are reaching for pitchforks. What a joke.
I just find it funny that Marvel spend hundreds of millions on something like Black Panther and I'd rather watch Troll 2 for the sixth time.
I just find it funny that Marvel spend hundreds of millions on something like Black Panther and I'd rather watch Troll 2 for the sixth time.
ROMhack
Member
I said this earlier, I think. They're fine as kids movies but it's when adults go loopy about them where people are okay to get fussy about them. Scorsese being a 76 year old dude and all.
Last edited:
#Phonepunk#
Banned
thats the funny thing about this all. he is "some old geezer" to these people, not an award winning filmmaker for decades who has personally dug himself into the academic discipline. when i was in college in 1999 i took an intro to film class and one of the materials was a Scorcese film series, the guy knows what the fuck he was talking about.
it's just in this post-expert, post-objectivism reality where "anything can be art maaaan" and we have flattened all qualities out and democratized everything, yeah, then his opinion means nothing to those people. when you eliminate standards so that everything is special, nothing is.
personally i still believe in objective quality, that some art can in fact more palatable than others, and there has been little in any Marvel films i've wanted to hold onto after the movie is over. are there any scenes you could teach in film class? any remarkable shots w good framing? feel like most detail is put into easter eggs and marketing.
Last edited:
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
/THREAD.
It's Jeff
Banned
I'd argue that's even worse. That's more time to recognize that art comes in so many different varieties. And I guess it doesn't bother me when adults go cuckoo for Marvel stuff - I mean, they're samey but structurally, they're solid character driven stories that some people feel passionate about.
I dunno. I was thinking about this earlier this year when I realized that modern rap doesn't appeal to me at all. Everything I used to view as hallmarks in the genre is long gone. I thought it turned to shit, but realistically it evolved in a direction I didn't care for - but it's still art, even though it doesn't feel as artistic to me. I get where he's coming from, but I can't agree with him.
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Insecure Marvel fans ITT.
sol_bad
Member
How can you agree on something that he has never watched?
I'm assuming you have watched more than 1 MCU movie. Scorsese probably has no idea if he has even watched an MCU movie with how dismissive he is being.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
...and he's not wrong. I mean, they aren't literally theme parks; you can't ride Black Widow (boy do I wish I could tho...wait wouldn't that mean Widow'd have a...oh god oh no oh god oh no!!).
But MCU aren't high-art flicks, they're fun popcorn movies meant to entertain, not challenge your view on the world or how things work. The last comic book film I saw that truly successfully managed to do that wasn't even an MCU flick, it was Nolan's Dark Knight (and I would've said Watchmen to a lesser extent but I haven't seen it in ages).
Marvel and Disney have fine-tuned the MCU flicks to a mass-market, family-friendly formula, and they're damn successful for it financially. But if you can't push boundaries through themes and story, you gotta amp up the theatrics and flash. And that's what the MCU does.
...also I think Martin would've been better saying the MCU isn't high-art cinema. If you just wanna talk technically, they ARE movies. But in terms of story or character complexity aren't on the level of most of the foreign and independent films I've seen. Even stuff like Pulp Fiction (which was like the most commercial-friendly violent gangster film for its day) is a lot more nuanced and complex than the MCU films.
But MCU aren't high-art flicks, they're fun popcorn movies meant to entertain, not challenge your view on the world or how things work. The last comic book film I saw that truly successfully managed to do that wasn't even an MCU flick, it was Nolan's Dark Knight (and I would've said Watchmen to a lesser extent but I haven't seen it in ages).
Marvel and Disney have fine-tuned the MCU flicks to a mass-market, family-friendly formula, and they're damn successful for it financially. But if you can't push boundaries through themes and story, you gotta amp up the theatrics and flash. And that's what the MCU does.
...also I think Martin would've been better saying the MCU isn't high-art cinema. If you just wanna talk technically, they ARE movies. But in terms of story or character complexity aren't on the level of most of the foreign and independent films I've seen. Even stuff like Pulp Fiction (which was like the most commercial-friendly violent gangster film for its day) is a lot more nuanced and complex than the MCU films.
Last edited:
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
You were 20 in middle School??!?!?
Azurro
Banned
How can you not think this? And he did say he did try to watch them, it's not like you have to see all of them to see the pattern, they are all the same, with very few exceptions: Intro action scene with quips, a bit of plot, action scene, more quips, more plot, action scene with quips, villain revelation, ending with quips, and in the end nothing or with at the most very minor changes in the overall story.
It's not exactly meant to make you think or feel very profoundly about anything, it's not art, it's an entertainment product and a very successful one at that.
Last edited:
Domisto
Member
Scorsese's comment comes from a lot of experience which is always valuable but either way, I don't think he has said anything surprising here. He just said it very bluntly which a lot of people can't take these days.
As far as art goes, I find the word itself has little meaning. People create stuff, other people judge it. Of course I still think there are some clear signs of difference in objective quality before factoring in enjoyment. And if you stacked Scorsese's back catalog up against Marvel's I know which one I would favour, even though Scorsese hasn't produced such realistic looking battle rhinos.
sol_bad
Member
It's still art.
Comic books are art.
Dancing no matter what style is art.
Novels are an art form.
A 4 year old painting is art.
It doesn't matter what style or genre a film is, it's still art. Troma films are art.
Hw much MCU crap does he have to endure before he is allowed an opinion?
sol_bad
Member
At least a single full film. One of the good ones.
A good one? Is that slang for “predictable summer blockbuster with big explosions and sarcastic dialogue?”
Last edited:
Azurro
Banned
Art is supposed to elicit a response, it's supposed to make you think or feel something.
I didn't say comic books aren't art, they can be but not everything is. MCU movies are basically comedies with fun punching included, they don't have anything that makes you think or feel anything other than "That punch was sooo cool!" or "Hahaha, that joke is funny!", it's childlike, they don't say anything and they are not designed to.
It's like asking artistic intent from a plastic Transformers toy, it's designed to be consumed and thrown away.
Last edited:
Whitesnake
Banned
Who cares?
Theme parks are fun, ya cunt.
Theme parks are fun, ya cunt.
thekenta
Member
Beautifully said.
Since these threads always turn into some negative shitshow, I'll take the chance to maybe turn that Scorsese exposure into something positive.
Martin Scorsese is one of the Movie Brats, the others being Steven Spielberg, Francis Ford Coppola, Brian DePalma and George Lucas.
Out of those 5 magnificent filmmakers, only Scorsese has been going consistently strong for over 40 years.
He not only knows what he's talking about, he lives and breathes cinema.
One of the most highly respected people in the industry and my personal reason for becoming a filmmaker, that old geezer is responsible for many of the techniques you see in today's film and video industry. The guy has re-invented himself three times over his career, something that is so extremely rare, that it almost never happens. (I can't think of anyone right now that has successfully been this relevant for 40 years, except maybe Alfred Hitchcock)
Mean Streets, Raging Bull, The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver are an important part of film history. Taxi Driver was by the way the direct inspiration for Todd Philips to make the Joker.
His success faded in the late eighties and a new generation of filmmakers emerged. Guess what that old geezer did? He completely re-invented his style and made a film so fast, so modern that many filmmakers today still try to emulate it: Goodfellas.
People say he slowed down from the 00s on, but that's just life. The Wolf of Wall Street to me still feels like Goodfellas being brought into the 21st century and I can't think of many filmmakers in their seventies that make movies more modern than this. In November The Irishman will drop and even though Scorsese might not be able to make a film like Raging Bull anymore, he still takes great risks with his works.
Neither he, nor the films he made, are anything close to pretentious. They are a blueprint for the two generations of filmmakers that came after him.
Only time will show how the MCU films hold up. But I can tell you that in 40 years from now, the industry will still talk about Scorsese.
And if you still think a pretentious man can create scenes so unlike each other, yet so beautiful in their own right, I can't help you.