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Secret Developers, The Wii U story - Digital Foundry Series
- Thread starter hesido
- Start date
OG_Original Gamer
Member
Shortly after launch Ideaman posted a rumor that a dev mentioned using only one core. Its not a question of know how, but if tools and the SDK were ready to support multi core rendering, that's not even considering multi-threaded rendering which is what Slightly Mad Studios is using for P-Cars.
TC McQueen
Member
Any idea what their reaction is?
Nintendo fans saying they don't care and that 1st party is enough. The usual Sony fans laughing saying that the hardware is garbage anyway.
Is ideaman still around?
Sumo? They don't fit at all. The game sold exceptionally well compared to other WiiU launch multiplats.
Criterion is still looking the most likely out of the Visual Concepts/Criterion pool.
You are aware that all of this is pre-launch stuff, right? Console are ALWAYS a mess before they come out.
fredrancour
Member
"Many devs are non-Japanese speakers. We should probably have an english-language support infrastructure available" should've probably crossed their minds early enough to be a priority, at least.
And they did. It was relatively shitty but it was there. Like I said, shit's always a mess.
"At some point in this conversation we were informed that it was no good referencing Live and PSN as nobody in [Nintendo's] development teams used those systems (!) so could we provide more detailed explanations for them?"
I bet they still haven't. That's just arrogant!
You know it's never been known, in the entire history of games development, for early SDK's and toolsets to be crappy. Never. They all work perfectly straight away and no developer has ever had any reason to moan about them. Not once. Everything runs perfectly in games development land and EA is by far and away the best company ever to work for. Every game sells over a million copies as well.
Should be added to OP for an alternative point of view/clarification.
What? No. Companies do it because they don't want to pay for servers for games with low MP counts.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
kinda like here then.
Not at all. Arkham Origins is a 2013 game. This pre-launch insanity has little to no bearing on that as there are plenty of online games on WiiU by now.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
http://www.destructoid.com/experienced-devs-counter-annonymous-wii-u-criticisms-268857.phtml
"Chris Arnold of Nami Tentou, have come out in defense of the Wii U in light of recent criticisms. According to Chris, most of the points made by the anonymous developer in the recent Eurogamer article are based on "pre-retail release SDK problems" and that "the new post release SDK kits do not contain any of the listed problems". Chris even went as far as to call the Eurogamer article "Nintendoom clickbait", while Jools says that from what he knows as a Wii U, 3DS, PC, PS3 and PS Vita developer, "the Wii U is not more difficult to develop for than other platforms."
I have to agree with this, if you have a legit complaint about something like this, why not put your name on it and own your position on the matter. and if this was Criterion then whatever the problems they had, were clearly sorted out because NFS:MWU is one of the more solid 3rd party titles on the system.
Mods feel free to crush this article link if old.
"Chris Arnold of Nami Tentou, have come out in defense of the Wii U in light of recent criticisms. According to Chris, most of the points made by the anonymous developer in the recent Eurogamer article are based on "pre-retail release SDK problems" and that "the new post release SDK kits do not contain any of the listed problems". Chris even went as far as to call the Eurogamer article "Nintendoom clickbait", while Jools says that from what he knows as a Wii U, 3DS, PC, PS3 and PS Vita developer, "the Wii U is not more difficult to develop for than other platforms."
I have to agree with this, if you have a legit complaint about something like this, why not put your name on it and own your position on the matter. and if this was Criterion then whatever the problems they had, were clearly sorted out because NFS:MWU is one of the more solid 3rd party titles on the system.
Mods feel free to crush this article link if old.
DangerousDave
Member
I'm sure that Ping 1.5+ it's not difficult to program on WiiU. Not even in a javascript applet on browsers. It's the only game on WiiU (or of that developer) that I'm aware of.
Destructoid here is too generous with the concept of "experienced devs". I'm not saying that Chris Arnold is not experienced enought to bound the hardware limits of WiiU, but the game that he's doing is not doing it.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
I'm sure that Ping 1.5+ it's not difficult to program on WiiU. Not even in a javascript applet on browsers. It's the only game on WiiU (or of that developer) that I'm aware of.
Destructoid here is too generous with the concept of "experienced devs". I'm not saying that Chris Arnold is not experienced enought to bound the hardware limits of WiiU, but the game that he's doing is not doing it.
Fair enough of a statement but the article does site other instances of this in the past and other dev's saying they didn't have trouble with it. Again if you want me to take any claim seriously you need to attach a name to it.
SpecialAgentZ
Member
I'm sure that Ping 1.5+ it's not difficult to program on WiiU. Not even in a javascript applet on browsers. It's the only game on WiiU (or of that developer) that I'm aware of.
Destructoid here is too generous with the concept of "experienced devs". I'm not saying that Chris Arnold is not experienced enought to bound the hardware limits of WiiU, but the game that he's doing is not doing it.
Well, didn't the anon dev said it was hard to even get a "Hello World" running on Wii U?
DangerousDave
Member
This developer of Ping 1.5+ and also Mutant Muds developer (designer, not programmer) and is a indie game that also don't bound the hardware and shouldn't give too problems to port.
They're talking of 5 Cell dev (i think he's a gaffer, btw). Is also a game that shouldn't give too problems (is a game upscaled from DS). Is not the same as porting a complex game like Mass Effect 3 or other AAA games, with 720p, tons of polygons and effects on screen, online infraestructure, etc.
Note that all the previous developers, also, are devs that work, nearly exclusively, with Nintendo.
The only other devs that are on the article is the devs of Darksiders 2, on 2012, saying that they didn't have any problem. It's strange, because the WiiU version of Darksiders 2 was way worse than the versions of 8-years old consoles.
So... it's perfectly okay for a developer to wait until AFTER their product launches before they release a workable devkit?
R_thanatos
Member
This actually validates the article if you ask me.
The issue is not that the problem is fixed now .. the issue is that those problems were existing while develloppers were trying to board the wii U boat before release .
Those problems might be fixed ( regarding the compiler and the networking ) but they were indeed present and that's very important since it probably dumbed down several studios trying to make games on wii U pre release.
Even if those problems are fixed , it does not change the lack of communication by nintendo or the fact that they were so closed minded that they weren't looking at what their concurrents were providing ( PSN or LIVE ) this isn't a problem you can solve in 1 year.
balgajo
Member
But the problem about "Hello World" existed due pre-launch lack of documentation.
Not to mention "the damage is done", so to speak. This dev says right in the interview that they were soured on the system and have no plans to release any other titles for it. And I'm sure they're not the only ones.
I'm sure that Ping 1.5+ it's not difficult to program on WiiU. Not even in a javascript applet on browsers. It's the only game on WiiU (or of that developer) that I'm aware of.
Destructoid here is too generous with the concept of "experienced devs". I'm not saying that Chris Arnold is not experienced enought to bound the hardware limits of WiiU, but the game that he's doing is not doing it.
Is Renegade Kid seasoned enough?
Shawn Long @ShawnLong85
@JoolsWatsham Well in summary is its harder to program on the WiiU, and this "anoynomous developer" says thats why 3rd parties arent on WiiU
Jools Watsham @JoolsWatsham
@ShawnLong85 I am not a programmer, but from what I gather the Wii U is not more difficult to develop for than other platforms.
1:28 PM - 11 Jan 2014
prag16
Banned
Well yeah. The Sonic Racing sales success is the big one working against Sumo.
Why do you see Criterion as more likely than 2K? The "Britishisms" in the article are literally the only thing I can think of that favors them over 2K. And who know how much "leeway" the Eurogamer team had in transcribing this tale.
mohsinkhan
Member
Yeah I really believe Sony has the right people in place for playstation. I think Adam Boyes is bringing a lot of cool games to the console. I think nintendo needs some new blood, they gotta stop with this arrogance.
flatearthpandas
Member
I heard one anonymous dev was having issues with their PS4 dev kit and Mark Cerny answered what questions he could himself and translated the rest of their questions into Japanese.
Sure, EA does it all the time. Just release a letter of regret expressing how sorry you shipped a game filled with game breaking bugs and then do a Double XP weekend, and we're all good.
Edit: Back on point, its being taken as common logic that Wii U will continue to get ports as long as PS3/360 games are still in development, but I'm not so sure about that. It doesn't explain stuff like Slightly Mad Studios canceling PS3/360 development, but still keeping Wii U development. BTW, that game looks great, and I'm probably going to double and maybe triple dip on PS4/PC/Wii U depending on price and how each version preforms.
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/games/stories/1331625870374/project-cars-the-ultimate-racing-game
HerpDerpstreit
Member
To all that replied to my last post: I'm not suggesting that Nintendo is a victim in this. They clearly have their own way of thinking and doing things that doesn't work for 3rd parties most of the time. As I stated before, if you have a complaint and you aren't getting the answers you want to the point where you feel the need to go public with the information and complaints/concerns then at the very least, you should tell the company you have the issue with that you are the one saying these things.
That way they at least know who has what issue and then it is in their hands to address the problems or ignore them.
As for the pre and post launch dev kit differences and improvements, it has been well established by things like this, dev times on 1st party games and a general lack of communication or even acknowledgement on the part of Nintendo. That they were and continue to be grossly ill-prepared for this generation.
I have a WiiU and I enjoy most of the titles that I have had the chance to play on it. With that said, I find myself playing more on PC with steam big picture mode through and hdmi outlet to my living room from my office. I have little to no interest in the XB1 because of lack of exclusives that appeal to my personal taste. I do intend to get a PS4 once the library has grown a bit more. Just wanted to disclaim that 1st and foremost I am a gamer, I enjoy as many quality games as I can regardless of who makes them.
It sucks that Nintendo has so many good IPs and such potential to continue innovating the gaming experience but as in the past their number 1 problem is how they operate as a company. They shoot themselves in the foot every generation since the SNES because of some stubborn ideal.
With the N64 it was not wanting to go to a disc based media, with the GCN it was the proprietary media and not other multimedia functionality (unless you count the rare Panasonic Q), with the Wii it was lack of HD tech. And now with the Wii U it is a culmination of some of their previous mistakes biting them in the ass.
They are behind in online functionality and HD game development because they didn't pay attention to it 8 years ago when the competition was cutting their teeth on it.
Imagine for a second what would have happened if the Wii had been HD, would have been even more of a power house in sales because the "hardcore" crowd wouldn't have had their #1 complaint to spew out every time it was mentioned.
What if they hadn't been so stubborn about going to CD's, then Playstation wouldn't exist and they would have maintained the dominance they had from the SNES era.
But at least I own my opinion, getting back on topic my main issue with this whole thing is that it was done anonymously. I don't like when it happens in anything, at work in sports whatever, if you have a legitimate problem and going to the source doesn't produce results and you feel strongly enough to go public with it then do so with conviction and make it known to the offending entity that this is the course of action that you have taken.
No different than when Toyota was having all of those recalls and Steve Wozniak had not only discovered another issue with the Prius cruise control system, he notified Toyota and even told them how they could fix it. Toyota ignored him because I can only guess they didn't want to issue yet another recall. So he went public to car websites and within hours, Toyota PR was contacting the same websites reporting his findings and asking for his contact information.
By calling them out in the media and letting them know who is doing can yield more results than this anonymous crap.
Sorry for the rant. I was in the game industry for a little while, I've been a gamer since I can remember and it is something that I enjoy immensely. So forgive me if I get on the occasional soap box.
That way they at least know who has what issue and then it is in their hands to address the problems or ignore them.
As for the pre and post launch dev kit differences and improvements, it has been well established by things like this, dev times on 1st party games and a general lack of communication or even acknowledgement on the part of Nintendo. That they were and continue to be grossly ill-prepared for this generation.
I have a WiiU and I enjoy most of the titles that I have had the chance to play on it. With that said, I find myself playing more on PC with steam big picture mode through and hdmi outlet to my living room from my office. I have little to no interest in the XB1 because of lack of exclusives that appeal to my personal taste. I do intend to get a PS4 once the library has grown a bit more. Just wanted to disclaim that 1st and foremost I am a gamer, I enjoy as many quality games as I can regardless of who makes them.
It sucks that Nintendo has so many good IPs and such potential to continue innovating the gaming experience but as in the past their number 1 problem is how they operate as a company. They shoot themselves in the foot every generation since the SNES because of some stubborn ideal.
With the N64 it was not wanting to go to a disc based media, with the GCN it was the proprietary media and not other multimedia functionality (unless you count the rare Panasonic Q), with the Wii it was lack of HD tech. And now with the Wii U it is a culmination of some of their previous mistakes biting them in the ass.
They are behind in online functionality and HD game development because they didn't pay attention to it 8 years ago when the competition was cutting their teeth on it.
Imagine for a second what would have happened if the Wii had been HD, would have been even more of a power house in sales because the "hardcore" crowd wouldn't have had their #1 complaint to spew out every time it was mentioned.
What if they hadn't been so stubborn about going to CD's, then Playstation wouldn't exist and they would have maintained the dominance they had from the SNES era.
But at least I own my opinion, getting back on topic my main issue with this whole thing is that it was done anonymously. I don't like when it happens in anything, at work in sports whatever, if you have a legitimate problem and going to the source doesn't produce results and you feel strongly enough to go public with it then do so with conviction and make it known to the offending entity that this is the course of action that you have taken.
No different than when Toyota was having all of those recalls and Steve Wozniak had not only discovered another issue with the Prius cruise control system, he notified Toyota and even told them how they could fix it. Toyota ignored him because I can only guess they didn't want to issue yet another recall. So he went public to car websites and within hours, Toyota PR was contacting the same websites reporting his findings and asking for his contact information.
By calling them out in the media and letting them know who is doing can yield more results than this anonymous crap.
Sorry for the rant. I was in the game industry for a little while, I've been a gamer since I can remember and it is something that I enjoy immensely. So forgive me if I get on the occasional soap box.
Bullshit. Sometimes going anon is the only way to get information out without suffering severe personal consequences. Gaming is totally inconsequential, so I really could care less about that in this case. But in the real world, whistle-blowers have been tortured and murdered, or forced to live in Russia.
But Edward Swoden did go public with his accusations, partly because his identity gave weight to his allegations towards the NSA.
So yeah, putting your name to this stuff is not a great idea sometimes. I mean dude could be executed by the American govt for telling people the American govt is doing illegal shit. fucked.
totally ot though, so I'm gonna drop it.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
And that is true, but if you have a company you can cover yourself by speaking as a company not as a person
megabytecr
Member
Again, for all of us that followed Wii U tech threads this was known so long ago. Don't know why this article is causing so much turmoil in GAF. Console launches are rough since forever, but I guess the cool thing to do is mock on the Wii U and have your Nintendoomed click bait articles and judging by this thread I think they work pretty well.
Sure, I guess they have issues and Nintendo seems a conservative company, just look at the company size, it did not grow that much in the Wii era. This launch in particular has HW, Services, Networking, Social Network, Dev Tools & SDK including HD. I am sure they learned their lesson and maybe an answer to this is the NERD team in Europe. Wsippel has a thread explaining what they do and some investigations based on what they are hiring and their web page.
I hope they learn a lesson and build & correct from here. What are mistakes for but to learn from them. I am enjoying my Wii U and since I bought my Wii I believe they make the best games.
The details provided in the article sometimes look like they are made up, this dev, if it exists, probably was the first time working with a Nintendo console. But like I said, the launch tools were not mature, this is OLD news for the ones that follow Wii U tech threads.
PS4 since revealed seemed like the most popular option, just because we don't hear about a whiny dev does not mean that someone somewhere did not have some trouble before and around launch. Even a 1st party game expected at launch like Driveclub was delayed.
Wii U being difficult to develop for is a myth, even Beryl says the PPC architecture is not a hurdle or trouble to make code run on the system. He is not the only one to speak about it.
Sure, I guess they have issues and Nintendo seems a conservative company, just look at the company size, it did not grow that much in the Wii era. This launch in particular has HW, Services, Networking, Social Network, Dev Tools & SDK including HD. I am sure they learned their lesson and maybe an answer to this is the NERD team in Europe. Wsippel has a thread explaining what they do and some investigations based on what they are hiring and their web page.
I hope they learn a lesson and build & correct from here. What are mistakes for but to learn from them. I am enjoying my Wii U and since I bought my Wii I believe they make the best games.
The details provided in the article sometimes look like they are made up, this dev, if it exists, probably was the first time working with a Nintendo console. But like I said, the launch tools were not mature, this is OLD news for the ones that follow Wii U tech threads.
PS4 since revealed seemed like the most popular option, just because we don't hear about a whiny dev does not mean that someone somewhere did not have some trouble before and around launch. Even a 1st party game expected at launch like Driveclub was delayed.
Wii U being difficult to develop for is a myth, even Beryl says the PPC architecture is not a hurdle or trouble to make code run on the system. He is not the only one to speak about it.
HerpDerpstreit
Member
Well said, I think that anything Nintendo related causes a lot of controversy and conversation because they have been around forever and are just as much of a lot of gamers lives as cartoons like Transformers, TMNT and the like are.
The denial in this thread is unbelievable. I hope Nintendo does not live in the same bubble their fans do, or this stuff will never get fixed.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
DF is a 'sister site' to Eurogamer, and I've had more cause to question DFs integrity on articles over the years than I've had with Eurogamer 'proper'
megabytecr
Member
Not in denial, just that things are exaggerated and sensationalized. I accept that there was a problem, but most launches since forever does. Does MS have all the services ready? Does PS4 have everything ready? Consoles are getting fancier with more and more capabilities, Nintendo had trouble with the tools, their first time with HD, is not excusable but you could see it coming.
I have mostly been a PC gamer but this last gen went PS3 and Wii. Now going Wii U and probably PC. I sympathize a lot with Nintendo, they get a lot wrong but not their games, those are top notch. But I ain't no fanboy.
he insulted Nintendo's honour - for that he must lose his job.
Like they haven't done this shit for MS or Sony lol.
....+looks at avatar+
.......ok man.
Man it might surprised you but I don't really watch anime at all either.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I'm admittedly a bit embarrassed that I kept telling myself the Wii U would be a proper 'in-between' system in regards to power (aka inbetween the 360/PS3 and One/PS4) which would be able to balance Nintendo's design philosophies with giving 3rd parties more than enough incentive to develop for a good year or so proper competition came along, though I realized pretty fucking quickly by E3 2012 that wasn't remotely the case. Ugh.
Sony really saved themselves from making the same mistake by having a Mark Cenry who's an actual long time game dev be the lead system architect of the PS4. That and the fact they actually went to 3rd party devs and ask them what they wanted in the system.
I think they said something about the game needing a modern gpu and the Wii U provided that, might have been PR speak. Anyway this article also confirms the gpu is more capable. I also want to believe most of those slow compiler problems and bad support problems in the article have been addressed by now.
Yeah it seems as though if the Wii U was even twice as powerful, it would have faired much better. The marketing failure and name is honestly killing them the most. I think the average person who doesn't game or games a tiny bit has no idea the Wii U is here or just thinks it's the kiddy console. With a few exceptions they are right. I own a Wii U but I wish it was called something else, something cooler. I wish it had more games at the moment. Bayonetta 2 and X will be fabulous but they are still far out on the release calendar. The first party Nintendo games are good but never sell their consoles to me personally, which is funny because it seems that's the only reason to own a Nintendo console now. I know once I have Bayonetta 2 in my hands I will be happy though. I know it won't really sell amazing though, so I seriously don't know what Nintendo is going to do in the long run.