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Secret Developers, The Wii U story - Digital Foundry Series

Nintendo fanbase is worst fanbase. Seriously, anyone else would just accept that the issues described happened and move on, but not you guys.

Case in point the PS3 launch. There were similar reports that documentation for early PS3 dev kits went to western studios with no English instructions. Quite embarrassing for Sony, but yet no PS3 fanboys started a witch hunt comparable to this.

Eurogamer didn't lie, you can be blind to that a whine if you want or you can continue taking MariokillzM$1996 at his word, he seems pretty legit.
 

tipoo

Banned
But it's necessary to remember that they're 6 free, slow cores that are outclassed by most if not all desktop CPUs.

What's the point of bringing up larger desktop cores when talking about downporting to the Wii Us teeny cores? I'm sure any quad core i5 could handle the load the 6 Jaguar cores can, but if the Jaguar cores are peaked, downporting to 3 1.24GHz PowerPC 750 based cores would take a lot of doing.
 
Nintendo fanbase is worst fanbase. Seriously, anyone else would just accept that the issues described happened and move on, but not you guys.

Case in point the PS3 launch. There were similar reports that documentation for early PS3 dev kits went to western studios with no English instructions. Quite embarrassing for Sony, but yet no PS3 fanboys started a witch hunt comparable to this.

Eurogamer didn't lie, you can be blind to that a whine if you want or you can continue taking MariokillzM$1996 at his word, he seems pretty legit.
I will say that the attempt to break down the linguistics to narrow down what developers would have said this is embarrassing. As far as I'll go with that.
 
Nintendo fanbase is worst fanbase. Seriously, anyone else would just accept that the issues described happened and move on, but not you guys.

Case in point the PS3 launch. There were similar reports that documentation for early PS3 dev kits went to western studios with no English instructions. Quite embarrassing for Sony, but yet no PS3 fanboys started a witch hunt comparable to this.

Eurogamer didn't lie, you can be blind to that a whine if you want or you can continue taking MariokillzM$1996 at his word, he seems pretty legit.

All fanboys are the worst. Always on the defensive with goal post shifting illogical attacks.
 

Amir0x

Banned
There were some Sony fanboys like that too. Fanboys are just unique in character, once you get emotionally invested, you begin to chuck rationality at the door because you want so badly for things to be different.

That said, if they have any evidence that Eurogamer is making stuff up in this specific article, I'd like to see it. That'd be more fruitful than just claiming media conspiracy, especially since reports like this are far from unique to Eurogamer. We hear things like this all the time from third party developers. I mean granted that same group usually simply claims "lazy developers" at that point, but still
 

Chindogg

Member
There were some Sony fanboys like that too. Fanboys are just unique in character, once you get emotionally invested, you begin to chuck rationality at the door because you want so badly for things to be different.

That said, if they have any evidence that Eurogamer is making stuff up in this specific article, I'd like to see it. That'd be more fruitful than just claiming media conspiracy, especially since reports like this are far from unique to Eurogamer. We hear things like this all the time from third party developers. I mean granted that same group usually simply claims "lazy developers" at that point, but still

I don't think anyone's crying conspiracy here. Seems like a lot of the defense force posts have flat out said Wii U has problems. The issue isn't the article itself, but the fact its only one account of one short window in the console's development life.

Add that to the fact that initially the majority of posters in this thread basically used the article to reaffirm their opinions of the console and decided to guffaw and snark instead of having actual conversation. Then the defense force shows up with its NUH UHs and snark of their own. This all brews up to a weird discussion arguing semantics for the purpose of being smug on both sides while losing sight of what the bigger picture is: Wii U's launch had a lot of problems but a lot of them are smoothed out now, as with any launch.

Basically it's just another console with shaky development at launch due to different architecture. Some people decided to take this at face value and used the typical Nintendoomed rhetoric initially but now it seems like actual conversation is beginning to prevail.

A lot of this could have been avoided if the article added some sort of counterpoint or clarification, but nothing's perfect.
 

Amir0x

Banned
I don't think anyone's crying conspiracy here. Seems like a lot of the defense force posts have flat out said Wii U has problems. The issue isn't the article itself, but the fact its only one account of one short window in the console's development life.

Add that to the fact that initially the majority of posters in this thread basically used the article to reaffirm their opinions of the console and decided to guffaw and snark instead of having actual conversation. This all brews up to a weird discussion arguing semantics for the purpose of being smug while losing sight of what the bigger picture is: Wii U's launch had a lot of problems but a lot of them are smoothed out now, as with any launch.

Basically it's just another console with shaky development at launch due to different architecture. Some people decided to take this at face value and used the typical Nintendoomed rhetoric initially but now it seems like actual conversation is beginning to prevail.

A lot of this could have been avoided if the article added some sort of counterpoint or clarification, but nothing's perfect.

But that's not entirely true. We have reports of problems dealing with Nintendo after launch too. And the CPU problem as noted has not actually evaporated - the CPU is simply bad, bad stuff.

But as I noted in the thread earlier, the real disparity seems to be the reports we get from indie devs - who almost universally say there was a real change with how easy Nintendo was to deal with for Wii U - and developers who work WITH Nintendo in a partnership of sorts (say, Platinum Games), and AAA developers who routinely go on record to say their relations with Nintendo is problematic for any number of reasons.

I think part of the reason is simple, as Nintendo themselves stated clearly:

"Following and imitating others is the kind of reasoning that Nintendo tries to avoid the most, and while we certainly do not have a negative attitude toward strengthening our ties with third-party publishers, employing the same methodology as the other manufacturers would only lead to the most simplistic competitive approaches, such as price wars or money-giving that would never end. We would like to take a unique approach of our own and build sustainable relationships with our third-party publishers."

In other words, as the article states, Nintendo refuses to offer financial incentives to major third party developers. This is essentially Nintendo taking the basketball home and refusing to play. As we can see, the harmful repercussions of not at all participating in this sort of thing means when things get bad, they get really bad.

Of course, that's not the only problem. Major third party publishers/developers have an expectation of porting their games easily across as many platforms. Due once again to Nintendo's strategic choice to not fight the power game again, developers are once more tasked with having to create an entirely unique version of the game just to get it to run on Wii U, to say nothing of trying to take advantage of the screen in some way. This costs extra time and money that they are certainly not going to spend with the userbase as abysmal as it is.

There are other reasons too (I'm very curious to see if this communication problem persists with major developers), and they combine to stifle Nintendo's console growth. Until Nintendo is willing to suck in that pride and accept they have to be a LITTLE like their competitors to win support, they're going to keep facing this wall.
 
Couldn't your last statement apply to any of the next-gen consoles? If the best developers at the top third party companies were given time and a decent budget, they could churn out good results for any of the consoles.

Of course, PS4 and Xbone are both running ports which contain code that was designed with PS360 hardware strengths in mind and they were rushed for launch. I believe Ubisoft and EA could have gotten both AC IV and NFS Rivals to run at 1080p/60fps on the new next gen consoles with more time / experience with the hardware and more mature tools.

The difference between WiiU and PS4/Xbone ports is that the latter were high on the priority list for third parties despite their (at the time) non existent install base because the future of the console industry is resting on the shoulders of those two consoles doing well in the long run so it makes sense for third parties to get behind them as much as they can. PS4 and Xbone ports were also done by the top teams at their respective third party development houses with large budgets and not the smallest / least experienced teams with tiny budgets. Then there is the issue that PS4 and Xbone are so much more powerful than PS360 / WiiU, they get away with a lot of the tech side of ports by simply brute forcing the code.

All in all I think it's highly unfair to judge how powerful WiiU is by looking at quick, extremely low budget PS360 ports. Even something like ZombiU which is impressive visually for a launch game imo was a PS360 game that was completely transformed from another IP in just over a year. I would love to see Nintendo give Ubisoft a decent $20 million budget and 2.5 year development window for a sequel.

Also, looking at the sales data, I highly doubt that'd ever happen, seeing as the companies I'd consider "top third party companies" might not get a return on their investment, considering the install base and sales of third party games. That's why Nintendo steps in and finances things like Wonderful 101 and Bayo 2.

Definitely, I should have added "but that will never happen" at the end of my last post. As sales have shown, WiiU as a platform is toxic for core third party games.

I don't really see what Iwata's problem is with funding third party ports tbh. The Ubisoft CEO is on record as saying it costs only a few million dollars to do a WiiU port which means they would only have to sell something like 100 000 copies to break even. Even if they lost $1 million per port the likes of Tomb Raider, GTA V, MGS Ground Zeros and Destiny coming to WiiU in 2014 would make the console look like a much more attractive platform to consumers which would in turn move more consoles and give Nintendo a larger install base to sell their main franchises on.
 
Case in point the PS3 launch. There were similar reports that documentation for early PS3 dev kits went to western studios with no English instructions. Quite embarrassing for Sony, but yet no PS3 fanboys started a witch hunt comparable to this.
.


LOL

Absolutely 100% untrue, especially around here. There were tons of idiots claiming the exact same stupid shit about the PS3 as people here are claiming about the WiiU.

PS fanboys..... Nintendo fanboys.....they're just the same thing
 
Of course, PS4 and Xbone are both running ports which contain code that was designed with PS360 hardware strengths in mind and they were rushed for launch. I believe Ubisoft and EA could have gotten both AC IV and NFS Rivals to run at 1080p/60fps on the new next gen consoles with more time / experience with the hardware and more mature tools.

The difference between WiiU and PS4/Xbone ports is that the latter were high on the priority list for third parties despite their (at the time) non existent install base because the future of the console industry is resting on the shoulders of those two consoles doing well in the long run so it makes sense for third parties to get behind them as much as they can. PS4 and Xbone ports were also done by the top teams at their respective third party development houses with large budgets and not the smallest / least experienced teams with tiny budgets. Then there is the issue that PS4 and Xbone are so much more powerful than PS360 / WiiU, they get away with a lot of the tech side of ports by simply brute forcing the code.

All in all I think it's highly unfair to judge how powerful WiiU is by looking at quick, extremely low budget PS360 ports. Even something like ZombiU which is impressive visually for a launch game imo was a PS360 game that was completely transformed from another IP in just over a year. I would love to see Nintendo give Ubisoft a decent $20 million budget and 2.5 year development window for a sequel.



Definitely, I should have added "but that will never happen" at the end of my last post. As sales have shown, WiiU as a platform is toxic for core third party games.

I don't really see what Iwata's problem is with funding third party ports tbh. The Ubisoft CEO is on record as saying it costs only a few million dollars to do a WiiU port which means they would only have to sell something like 100 000 copies to break even. Even if they lost $1 million per port the likes of Tomb Raider, GTA V, MGS Ground Zeros and Destiny coming to WiiU in 2014 would make the console look like a much more attractive platform to consumers which would in turn move more consoles and give Nintendo a larger install base to sell their main franchises on.
I respect you taking the time out to explain your points and I totally agree. When the B team is the one trying to get things up to par on the system, there's no way to expect the advantages of the system to be fully realized. I think it falls on Iwata and Nintendo to entice developers financially at this point to bring games to the platform. Even if that means games that are already on other consoles. I remember things like WWE Day of Reckoning 2 and Resident Evil helping the GameCube stand out from the crowd. If there's any hope for the Wii U to be salvaged, that war chest is going to have to be cracked open soon.
 
I respect you taking the time out to explain your points and I totally agree. When the B team is the one trying to get things up to par on the system, there's no way to expect the advantages of the system to be fully realized. I think it falls on Iwata and Nintendo to entice developers financially at this point to bring games to the platform. Even if that means games that are already on other consoles. I remember things like WWE Day of Reckoning 2 and Resident Evil helping the GameCube stand out from the crowd. If there's any hope for the Wii U to be salvaged, that war chest is going to have to be cracked open soon.

I don't see Nintendo paying for ports anytime soon unfortunately, esp with Iwata in charge. As Amiro0x's post above shows he is completely obsessed with this "don't copy the competition" mantra handed down to him from Yamauchi. By now though he surely has to be beggining to realise without third party support they are fighting an uphill battle to sell a console for anything over $200.
 

Chindogg

Member
Completely fair rebuttal

I said a lot of problems, not everything. :)

But yeah there's still a situation that its not like the competition at all, specs and architecture.

You're completely right about the moneyhatting. I don't see Nintendo doing it either. Honestly I'm not a big fan of moneyhatting in general. Development partnerships seem to work out much better in the long run.
 
If there's any hope for the Wii U to be salvaged, that war chest is going to have to be cracked open soon.

Not just the Wii U. He needs to salvage relationships for any future console otherwise the same scenario will happen all over again.

By now though he surely has to be beggining to realise without third party support they are fighting an uphill battle to sell a console for anything over $200.

I agree with that. The tablet controller needs to be sold as a separate accessory by itself and in bundles. They could eat the research and development cost to sell more Wii U's. I'd be more interested in a Wii U at that price point even though I'm tired of Mario. Off screen play just isn't as exciting as remote play for the Vita. When I'm at home I've got multiple consoles, PC, laptop, and handhelds to switch over to. Having the ability to play games while on lunch break is totally awesome on the other hand.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
LOL

Absolutely 100% untrue, especially around here. There were tons of idiots claiming the exact same stupid shit about the PS3 as people here are claiming about the WiiU.

PS fanboys..... Nintendo fanboys.....they're just the same thing

Jesus, your avatar looks so much like my father is frightening. But anyway, yeah these negative reports are not anything new for a new console.
 

prag16

Banned
I've followed the entire conversation. I specifically replied to you because your post was arguing semantics. You acknowledge that the Wii U won't recieve relevant ports. You don't think anyone is contending that it won't recieve a shitload of ports. Then what is your point? The third party situation for the Wii U is subpar and looking at the data, will soon be very subpar. I don't know if you've already accepted that or not.

No, I said I don't think myself or anyone else is contending that it WILL get a shitload of PS4bone downports. My only claim/prediction is that I think it'll get more than zero during its lifespan (zero being the number implied by the guy I was originally replying to in his non sequitur post).

The line of discussion was about how games suffer as a result of being ported rather than ground-up. megabytecr brought up an opinion held by several here regarding ps4bone downports potentially being easier on some fronts than PS360 "cross ports". I could be wrong, but I don't think he meant to imply that he thought the Wii U would get more PS4bone ports. So the comment "lol what ports, Wii U won't get any ports" was besides the point, as I originally said.

I said a lot of problems, not everything. :)

But yeah there's still a situation that its not like the competition at all, specs and architecture.

You're completely right about the moneyhatting. I don't see Nintendo doing it either. Honestly I'm not a big fan of moneyhatting in general. Development partnerships seem to work out much better in the long run.

Yeah, the only moneyhatting we'll see is the partnership type deals I'd guess (unless the Sega/Sonic deal counts).

Moneyhatting to bring multiplats over? Well, if Nintendo pays to get Tomb Raider and GTA5, who knows if Ubi/Activision/etc wouldn't take cues from that and expect the next CoD and Asscreed to likewise be moneyhatted. Bad precedent to set.

Keep doing some partnerships a la Bayo2 and SMTxFE, while working to repair the relationships with third parties as much as possible for the next go around. What else can they do?
 
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