It is too bad, because this could have been an even more interesting article, if DF would have done some follow-up on the situation and wouldn't have drawn conclusions about the future based on a situation no longer valid. That doesn't mean that what was reported is false, just outdated.
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Secret Developers, The Wii U story - Digital Foundry Series
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Those same stories have been reported on other sites, one of which is banned here for instance. Most of these are from developers talking on twitter and are 100% legit.
They don't contradict the Eurogamer article, they are just saying that it was old information about old dev kits pre launch. And that it's not the same situation today.
Most of those appear to be indie devs or Japanese devs, while the article mentioned a language barrier and performance issues. I imagine it's a lot easier to code a 2d platformer than to port a game like Assassins Creed.
Yet there have been two AC games ported to Wii U with very few issues.
HiredN00bs
Member
Are you suggesting that Eurogamer didn't verify their source or just made the whole thing up? Your first linked article immediately implied that, but on what grounds? That a different person at a different studio had a different experience developing a different game (with entirely different design goals)? Is it so impossible to believe that Nintendo performed inadequately in some regard?
The story is almost certainly true. As I wrote, even Shin'en struggled a bit with the early kits and underestimated the system for a few months, and they worked with Nintendo for years. It was probably a lot worse for developers who aren't as familiar with Nintendo's MO or system launches in general.
I'm not implying or suggesting anything.
Like I said I just saw them posted on Eurogamer and copy/pasted them here. I haven't even read most of those articles in those links, but I have seen the same information reported on other sites and the information is accurate. It's all from people asking developers questions on twitter.
It's a mix of western and eastern and indie and AAA devs. A former Activision Rachet and Clank/Skylanders dev, a current Platinum Games lead, various indies too. They are all saying that it's no harder to develop on Wii U than it is on other systems and that the information in the Eurogamer article is "really, really outdated".
It's not the the EG article is wrong - although it did get some things wrong, fab process and more - but that the whole article was just tales of making a launch game and it's not the same situation now and from what Criterion said who were developing NFS MW U for spring 2013 launch - the tools and support got a lot better fairly shortly after launch.
The AC ports are certainly good, albeit slightly worse than PS3/360 in terms of frame rate, but that doesn't tell us anything about the development process or the support provided by Nintendo.
LordOcidax
Member
Eurogamer need to update the article and add a update info with a new "anonymous dev". Is a shame because is one of my fav sites.
There has to be a reason for the disconnect between indie, smaller western and Japanese developers vs some big western ones. I find it hard to imagine Nintendo is opening the door for the first ground and when the second comes to the door they just slam it in their face at worse or just let it swing close for them to open it up themselves at the least. It's not like studios haven't been through console launches before. They know how bad documentation, etc can be early on. Even with that though Ubisoft managed to put out a damn good version of Assassin's Creed 3. Same with Activision and Black Ops 2. So something doesn't add up on that front to me.
Well if you want an indication of how support is or was shortly after launch there is that Eurogamer Criterion interview that was posted fairly early on in this thread:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-need-for-speed-most-wanted-wii-u-behind-the-scenes
"Nintendo gave us a lot of support - support which helps people who are doing cross-platform development actually get the GPU running to the kind of rate we've got it at now. We benefited by not quite being there for launch - we got a lot of that support that wasn't there at day one... the tools, everything."
For comparison purposes, they are a AAA, western dev and porting a game from other systems. So you can't just dismiss them as being indies or Japanese or making small games.
This is what another Wii U dev had to say:
Christopher F Arnold said:
Here's what former Rachet and Skylanders dev had to say about the EG article:
Mike Stout said:
Renegade Kid said:
Kamiyas' twitter said:
And then going further back there is a wealth of information on how easy the system is to develop on, mostly from more forthcoming indies though.
Interceptor
Banned
So do poeple still believe in eurogamers "anonymous" clickgenerator?
Thomas_Daly
Banned
to me eurogamer is a bad pun factory
every news story has some cheesy pun below the title
like that older uncle that trying to be cool but he's not
TheOnePercent
Member
Why wouldn't we? A lot of of these other devs seem to confirm it, but also say that it has gotten a lot better now.
Also isn't Eurogamer the outlet that when people were trying to determine the hardware in the Wii U tried to to say, as fact, it was weaker then the PS3/360. All simply because the hardware was so customized that they couldn't figure it out and compare it to off the shelf parts in a neat manner. It had to weaker even though that made no sense at all and people wasted no time quoting them. Only for actual games to come out and force them to reluctantly change their tune after they were so sure early on. Clickbait isn't beneath them at all.
Pretty much this. Maybe they should have done a follow-up on the current tools/support, but the story might explain why some studios jumped ship after releasing the launch titles.
Yes, since Nintendo has said their dev tools sucked leading up to launch. And being a Wii U day one owner, I certainly can believe they had no plan for online after waiting hours for to dl a day 1 firmware update.
I believe it was right, albeit a few inconsistencies, I just think it should have been labelled clearly and people have taken it the wrong way.
The writer made no concessions or attempts to balance, that working on launch games usually is difficult with ever changing hardware. And that similar horror stories exist working on other platforms at launch.
And you know even the other stuff was useful to know like they couldn't take advantage of the CPUs extra features or the GPU compute ability. Mainly because of the lack of tools etc but it does suggest that once those are used properly, game performance can get better.
Shinen said that CPU cache mastery is hugely important and that you can lose order of magnitudes of power if you don't get that right. Considering what this EG dev is saying, they obviously didn't know how to use the CPU properly back then - and yeah that's on Nintendo who appear to have been figuring it out themselves at the same time.
Of course, why wouldn't we? The whole story seems like the most probable scenario.
Interceptor
Banned
Because the "dev" got some techstuff wrong and his information is way outdatet. Like if a jounalist gathered all the bad rumors he heard and mixed it with his limited technical knowledge to create some "anonymous" entity that will gather him free klicks. Wait a minute.,...
None of those contradict the article. The article is saying pre-release / around release sucked and that the network infrastructure was backwards.
Additionally, doubt is always good to have when reading articles like this....but you shouldn't only apply it to the article. Kamiya isn't exactly neutral in his relations with Nintendo right now.
emiranda061288
Banned
If you are a serious person you wouldn't violate contracts just to post an article on a gaming site. I know they need to generate clicks but without proper information the article is useless and it appears that is irrelevant now because another developers said the Wii U is not that bad, they didn't try to gather more information from others anonymous sources- Gaming journalism seems to never get better.
I remember them counting shaders off a Chipworks photo and declaring the GPU shit. Meanwhile in the Latte thread, months later people still can't figure out most of what's going on with the GPU, because its so customized.
I think for me what made me lose some faith in Digital Foundry was their Splinter Cell Face off which directly contradicted the Lens of Truths' opinion. I got the game myself and I find it hard to see how DF could recommend versions with massive screen tearing in gameplay and cutscenes, over a perfectly vsynced version with a few barely perceptible frame rate drops - in cutscenes of all places. My only problem was the loading times.
I never said it did, in fact I said the opposite.
And Criterion, Frozenbyte, Activision and the rest? All biased too? The EG article isn't exactly anything new to me as I am exposed to a lot of gaming news on a daily basis. For those who forget there was an article from Ubisoft saying how hard it was working on Zombi U with ever changing devkits.
So why post them if they're completely unrelated to the article. It'd be worth a second article if they hadn't improved since release.
This is where that critical thinking comes into play. A press release / PR interview or asking developers who are currently actively involved with Nintendo (i.e., Kamiya...people blindly accepting that are hilarious) have to be taken with as much as or MORE of a grain of salt than the EG article.
It then doesn't help that most ports to the Wii-U are inferior to the 360 / PS3 which leads to the obvious question of why.
Either way, the Eurogamer article shouldn't be blindly trusted. A lot of you are using crap examples to shoot it down, though.
Did you lose faith in DF after the ME3, Trine 2, or NFS comparisons?
I think the point of those quotes was to show that things have improved since pre release. I was wondering what Nintendo had done to make things better, and according to these developers, things got better.
I see a few disagree with this....but he has a point. You have college kids where space is limited. Ppl on a budget that cant really afford separate blu ray players. And just situations where having a console play back music and movies would be nice.
Consoles playing CD's has been around since the Sega CD days....and yet its still absent from Nintendo consoles? I use my PS3 to help diagnose any 3D play back issues my blu ray player might have. Just because it can play 3D blu ray movies.
My orig Xbox....one of its greatest features was being able to rip a CD and use the music in some games. I miss that and wish more games, consoles could do that. Just seen some guides to have personal music playing on the 360 while playing a game. Not the same thing but its close. And the PS3 its even more limited.
Never bothered thinking about it with my PS2....but when I got the orig Xbox its all I did.
Since the N64 Nintendo has been behind the times as far as extra features in their consoles. N64 and cartridges when disc consoles were the rage. Lil shot size disc in the Game Cube when they finally do go disc. Regular size disc in Wii and still no cd, dvd playback. An even more advanced console in the Wii U and still no cd, dvd playback? Its borderline mind boggling. Some say its to keep cost down. You mean to tell me playing a CD costs so much that in 2014 basic cd player hardware is that expensive? I understand in smartphones things like FM radio gets left out for costs...but this is a huge console.
And funny seeing some of the negativity towards EG, DF. I thought that was a go to site for info about Wii U performance vs the other consoles..... I guess when they post something that doesnt sit well with some folks they all of a sudden lose credibility. Like many have said since this thread started it was stated its old info.
Reading comprehension would tell anybody its old info. All this does is highlight problems the Wii U really shouldnt have had. Especially coming off the Wii. Especially since Nintendo is arguably the granddaddies of game console makers.
The first 2 paragraphs are written in past tense.
Exactly. When the WIi U is seen in a good light , EG, DF is fine...when its not.....uh uh I dont really trust them.. Guy referenced them about the Vita vs the Wii Game Pad for off TV play...Wii U seen in the best light in some cases....I wonder does he still trust EG, DF....
Didnt Mario 3D World get EG best game of 2013.....I guess they still lose credibility tho for this article.
Yup. There are a boat load of theories about Wii U sales, 3rd party games, etc. This just another theory.
gamergirly
Member
Its always 10 pages in until the truth comes to light.....
Sure, and that's great. Honestly, it is.
The problem is people are then making the logic leaps that it also means that the article is false.
It might be, but using those quotes alone to justify that is a horrifyingly inept conclusion.
That's fair to point out. No one can justify Nintendo's incompetence, but at the same time, people thought that Nintendo had done nothing to improve since then, which isn't fair to assume.
It's both ways really. There's still a lot more room for improvement if you ask me.
ab.aeterno
Member
At least have the balls to accuse him of libel instead of just insinuating it.
Actually I have a few issues with all of those 3 comparisons, nothing major but a few. Shame DF didn't actually play far in enough to critique The Goblin Menace expansion because visually it blew away the regular games (Trine 2s) visuals. They also didn't update the article after FB patched the game for better colours and more vividness, fixed the gamma etc.
They also don't follow up on other games post patching, COD Ghosts U was patched for better textures and performance, I'd like to know what, if any difference it made. It also seemed they underplayed the NFS face off considering their original article/interview.
It also bugs me that they compare partially installed or fully installed games on 360 and PS3 to no install U versions. IMO they should download an eshop version too and check load times there too. Not that I know of any load time difference, just out of interest.
This is all off topic though, as I said I don't think the early dev article is bogus.
Ricerocket
Member
Just letting you know that most PS3/360 games force install before you can play games...
Also, Wii U got a performance + gfx patch on CoD Ghost?? Looks worst than BO2 from the next-gen screenshot thread if you ask me.
So your solution is to remove features that are standard simply to make the console be "different"? That's ridiculous.
OG_Original Gamer
Member
I think the dev is being honest about the early development environment. It is information there that we knew about and some we didn't. The problem is, it comes off as just click bait. Primarily because DF either failed to acknowledge that the dev environment has improved as well communication. Nintendo shares some blame, although small, keeping spec detail to a minimum is only a recipe for a article like this one.
I'm not sure anymore if this was a theory or confirmed/leaked long ago, but from what i remember from the Wii, the reasoning was that reading DVD/CD's, was left out for licensing costs (they actually said they'd make it available after purchasing a software upgrade iirc but never went through with it), but first and foremost, to prevent hardware failures. The more the disc has to spin, the sooner the disc drive will crap out.
So... once right, always right? Once wrong always wrong? According to you guys, giving Mario 3DWorld GOTY means they can't be wrong with their analysis of, say Splinter Cell? (Which they are).
OG_Original Gamer
Member
How many BO2 pics are in that thread with comparisons?
I don't believe for a second this patch improved so much WiiU version. Nintendo fans need to open their eyes. Lens of truth now is considered legitims to them. Good Lord, LoT face off are embarassing in everything. WiiU hardware is barely more powerful of ps360, cpu bottlenecks are atroucious. Hope in a new console because wiiu is a total disaster in the specs. Or eejoy to the nintendo exclusives without care to the third parties. With next generations consoles released things will become even worst.
"Believe"....
The changelog: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/12/07/call-of-duty-ghosts-patched-on-wii-u-gamepad-scoreboard-introd/
tassletine
Member
It's not that, its just that the article is bringing up old news, as news. All consoles have their problems before they are released and the EG article fails to put it into context. You always hear about developers having trouble just before release. (GTA, Halo, etc.) It a doom and gloom story that should have been reported then, not now. Reporting this stuff now is seen as bad journalism as all it's doing is trying to generate bad publicity for Nintendo.
tassletine
Member
W101 pisses on DK. And I like those games.
prag16
Banned
That's the main issue I have I guess.
Eurogamer failed to put any of it in the proper perspective. Assuming this was all a direct first person account written by a dev, they should have put in editor's notes at the bottom noting comparisons with difficulty of development prerelease for other consoles, and how things have improved for Wii U from that standpoint since then.
Tossing it out there as-is, they HAD to know would end up being pretty inflammatory and possibly misleading.
You are missing the article in which Miyamoto and Iwata also confirm that it's easier to develop for Wii U than for other platforms.
In other words, PR answers are nice. I love when people simply take them as a fact when reality speaks a different language. Why were 3rd party ports inferior if Wii U was so easy to develop for? The same frequently happens when users on here don't question PR replies - "Retro wanted to make DKCR2", of course, that's why their leads left the studio; "Mark Betteridge left his position as Head of Rare Ltd. to pursue other opportunities at the company", heck no, he was fired. That's why these anonymous reports play such an important role, and, when verified by a reliable source such as Eurogamer, are very revealing.
These are 3rd parties sharing their experiences as well (Well maybe Kamiya is more like 2nd party in this case). Why are some 3rd party statements more valid (the ones that shit on nintendo and don't give a name) than others (those saying the Wii U policies have changed since launch and put their names on the line)? That is why no one is including Miyamoto and Iwata's statements because its obvious they would say its easy to develop for.
Dictator93
Member
You asking that question is just inviting defending crazies to scream "lazy developers."
So its only "PR" when its positive for the WiiU? I hate this reasoning, and I see it flung around Nintendoomed threads all to often.
Regarding 3rd party ports, western developers had 7 years of experience on 360/PS3, and they were still able to get games running relatively smoothly on WiiU right out of the gate.