Support NeoGAF

[DiipuSurotu]

I think the best way to describe it is probably "simple". It's not really super detailed or anything but it's probably what it would've looked like had they had the chance to make the game with 3D assets back then. It's odd to see such criticism toward this though... what exactly did people expect? I kind of want to see examples of what they wanted to be done with this remake.

I've been looking at old SD4: Dawn of Mana screenshots since this remake looking like a PS2 game got brought up a few times (and it's the only 3D game in the series before the remakes). Man the HUD is huge in that game, but it's definitely a different aesthetic they had going; I believe this was when they still had most of their main team together:

.

 

[Claude Augario]

I think the best way to describe it is probably "simple". It's not really super detailed or anything but it's probably what it would've looked like had they had the chance to make the game with 3D assets back then. It's odd to see such criticism toward this though... what exactly did people expect? I kind of want to see examples of what they wanted to be done with this remake.

A modern day Secret of Mana remake on a hardware threshold of even the Vita should at least be Dawn of Mana level. For all that game's flaws it definitely nailed what I expected a 3D Mana game to look like and that was on the PS2 in 2006.

I don't hate the remake's art like a lot of people but the actual environments look sterile, and everything feels budget constrained. Secret of Mana was the point where this franchise did over a million in Japan alone - a lot of people have been waiting for this franchise's return and yet they're phoning it in with the remake of the breakout game.

If they try to do Seiken 3 on this budget it's going to look dire.Secret of Mana looked good if spotty in places, but Seiken Densetsu 3 is one of the pinnacles of SNES pixel art. You can't budget your way into a remake of that game.

 

[TRUE ORDER]

Good news, though I don't like that artstyle that much...

 

[AuthenticM]

I know many won't agree, but I found the original to be incredibly frustrating to play. I hope this has actual working hit detection, a camera that shows where you're going and sensible hitboxes. Feedback in the original just felt completely broken and ruined the game for me.

While it didn't ruin the game for me, I'm with you. There's something off about the hit detection in both Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3. They need to fix that.

 

[djtiesto]

I hope there's a way to toggle between the original's graphics and music, kinda like the Wonderboy 3 remake. The art style on this and Adventures of Mana is just so dull, and when they get to remaking Seiken 3, one of the best looking 2D games ever, they better not try giving it this style. Or else we'd have another case of DQ6 where the original looked a hundred times better than the remake.

 

[2+2=5]

I assume this'll probably run perfectly on something like the GPD Win

I am pretty sure it will run good on it. Maybe even better than on the Vita.

The GPD Win is way more powerful than Vita, not too far from a Vita 2, it's able to play rather decently many ps360 era/level games despite not being optimized for it(unlike their console and handheld counterparts)...

...that said pc games and ports are usually aimed at way more powerful pcs so usually they aren't optimized for the GPD Win, the fact that a game runs on vita doesn't necesserily mean that it will run better on the GPD Win.

 

[zeopower6]

I don't hate the remake's art like a lot of people but the actual environments look sterile, and everything feels budget constrained. Secret of Mana was the point where this franchise did over a million in Japan alone - a lot of people have been waiting for this franchise's return and yet they're phoning it in with the remake of the breakout game.

If they try to do Seiken 3 on this budget it's going to look dire.Secret of Mana looked good if spotty in places, but Seiken Densetsu 3 is one of the pinnacles of SNES pixel art. You can't budget your way into a remake of that game.

I think they did what they could with the plan they had mapped out. The game that came before this had no voice and the soundtrack wasn't redone to the extent it is for this. It sounds like they'll improve upon this base into the next remake however which seems like it's inevitable since this will probably sell well enough (and more than Adventures of Mana) for them to begin work on Seiken 3. And with regard to the way it 'looks' over that other game, I think they tried to preserve that top down view for obvious reasons leaving only so many options available for how models and such should look. To me that other game kind of looked like a bad Dark Cloud.

Like already IMO this looks better than Adventures did, and if they do development on Seiken 3, it'll probably improve upon this.

――もしや『聖剣伝説2』や『聖剣伝説3』などのナンバリングも、すでにリメイクが動いているのでしょうか？

　今回の『聖剣伝説』は、まさにそのベースになるものだと考えています。2Dのゲームを3Dにしつつも、昔のよさをそこなわないように作ってみた、というところですね。

　特に『聖剣伝説3』はバーチャルコンソールなどで配信していないため最近のハードでは遊べないのですが、今回の『聖剣伝説』がご好評でしたら、コレをベースに『聖剣伝説3』のリメイクを作りたいですね。

　もし、もっと豪華に作りなおしてほしいという要望が多ければ、今の時代にマッチしたものとして作り直すことも考えています。『聖剣伝説2』は現状でもスマートフォンとバーチャルコンソールで遊べますが、こちらも要望があれば、今回のようなリメイクを検討しようと思います。

To quote from the interview Oyamada did about two years ago, if a lot of people request for Seiken 3 to be more ''gorgeous" than this, they would work on that. Mostly I think he really wanted to do these remakes to allow Seiken 3 to be available to more people to experience that game but it was hard to promise a remake of those since the games were so big.

It just could have been handled better, they could have invested more into it and gave it a look similar to Legend of Mana for example, which had a very distinct and artistic/painted look to it.

This doesn't look bad, it just looks very generic.

You'd think otherwise from the "this is horrid" comments.

Hopefully. Hopefully a $40 digital-only visual downgrade doesn't sell too poorly and then squeenix consequently decide that the west doesn't like Seiken Densetsu

Well, in Japan at least they'll be selling quite a lot. This is doing crazy well on the Amazon charts. The issue will be is if it's worth releasing in the West if (imo , more like when) they remake 3 if they should even put the effort into bringing it over here. Japan would have no issue getting it along with a CE/physical but basically if you want 3 to be remade AND brought here, it's probably a good idea to pick this up. Signs seem to be pointing at 3 getting remade with this style as the base after all.

 

[Teknoman]

What was the problem with Dawn of Mana anyway? On that note, how was Children of Mana? I really want to enjoy Legend of Mana, but I don't want to play it with a guide either.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To make a food analogy, this SoM remake is, at worst, a bland soup; FF6 remake is a paella with prawns, carrots, eggs, banana peels, gummy bears and an assortment of insect parts.

lol. I disagree with this analogy. To me this SoM remake is cold soggy bread, and the FF6 remake is a hot pizza with pepperoni, mushrooms, black olives, and anchovies. Much as I hate the latter two toppings, I'd still rather eat that pizza over soggy bread.

We've seen like ten seconds of an in development flying sequence/main character sample and 5 screencaps and it's offensively bad? If anything the reaction you have to that little of the game is worse.

Well, yeah? I mean do you think future screens/vids will showcase an entirely different art style, or what?

 

[GhostTrick]

I wonder if they'll include the SNES or Android version with this remake, considering the price.

 

[zeopower6]

It just could have been handled better, they could have invested more into it and gave it a look similar to Legend of Mana for example, which had a very distinct and artistic/painted look to it.

This doesn't look bad, it just looks very generic.

You'd think differently from the reactions, here, lol.

Hopefully. Hopefully a $40 digital-only visual downgrade doesn't sell too poorly and then squeenix consequently decide that the west doesn't like Seiken Densetsu

Japan will at least be okay since it's selling well. I think it may have issues in the West though but not too many since reaction seems to be half "this is shit" and half "I am looking forward to this". Though should they remake 3 (which I think is gonna happen but either next year or the year after) and in this style, whether or not it comes overseas will depend on how this does.

Well, yeah? I mean do you think future screens/vids will showcase an entirely different art style, or what?

The art style is fine. I don't really see the point though in basically harping on it all the time if you're not gonna buy it anyway. And that VI remake was pretty horrid. I think hardly anyone thought that was pleasing to the eye.

 

[Dremorak]

Wtf... looks like a 3ds game lol. Okay.

 

[Josman]

Not a fan of those 3D graphics, would have liked a 2d style much more.

 

[Psxphile]

Wtf... looks like a 3ds game lol. Okay.

What system was it supposed to look like?

 

[Champion]

Hoping SE localise the Secret of Mana collection for the Switch because this remake is a huge NOPE from me.

.

 

[PixyJunket]

What system was it supposed to look like?

Every game should look like a $500,000,000,000 AAAAAA Game and be exclusive for Sony© PlayStation® 4™ Pro℗.

It's the only way the industry can remain healthy.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Every game should look like a $500,000,000,000 AAAAAA Game and be exclusive for Sony© PlayStation® 4™ Pro℗.

It's the only way the industry can remain healthy.

There's somewhere called the middle in case young event heard about it, somewhere the series had already gone but instead hasent really done ehstnyou expect when coming on vita let alone the ps4

 

[Morrigan Stark]

The art style is fine.

I, and others, obviously disagree with that. Are we not allowed to comment on that?

I don't really see the point though in basically harping on it all the time if you're not gonna buy it anyway.

Ah, I guess not.

I probably won't buy it, no, but my SO and I are often starving for local coop games, so who the hell knows, lol.

And that VI remake was pretty horrid. I think hardly anyone thought that was pleasing to the eye.

Never said otherwise.

Every game should look like a $500,000,000,000 AAAAAA Game and be exclusive for Sony© PlayStation® 4™ Pro℗.

It's the only way the industry can remain healthy.

e_e Careful you don't sneeze with all that straw.

 

[zeopower6]

There's somewhere called the middle in case young event heard about it, somewhere the series had already gone but instead hasent really done ehstnyou expect when coming on vita let alone the ps4

I do think that they 100% considered 2D back in 2014/2015 but ultimately this was more remake friendly.

It goes along with what their goals were in recreating this, preserving that same sort of 'look' but with a modern take on it.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

What was the problem with Dawn of Mana anyway? On that note, how was Children of Mana? I really want to enjoy Legend of Mana, but I don't want to play it with a guide either.

Well for starters, it wasn't even an RPG. It was a stage-based beat-them-up.

 

[zeopower6]

Well for starters, it wasn't even an RPG. It was a stage-based beat-them-up.

That explains the iffy reception to it.

 

[Rpgmonkey]

The style itself looks fine to me and doesn't look grossly out of line from the original, but the lighting could be better. I feel like this is something a number of 3D stylized games miss out on for a variety of reasons (mainly hardware/budget/engine limitations I guess), that could improve things considerably.

I assume a SD3 remake like this is going to happen in a few years as well, so hopefully they improve in that area, especially since that game's visuals skewed a little darker.

 

[Easy_D]

Well for starters, it wasn't even an RPG. It was a stage-based beat-them-up.

So was Legend of Mana tbh.

 

[120v]

A modern day Secret of Mana remake on a hardware threshold of even the Vita should at least be Dawn of Mana level. For all that game's flaws it definitely nailed what I expected a 3D Mana game to look like and that was on the PS2 in 2006.
.

it more or less is on that level, the overhead view just doesn't do it any favors. granted they did go with the less impressive SD1 remake engine but it's about on par with any ps2 era game with an upres

 

[zeopower6]

The style itself looks fine to me and doesn't look grossly out of line from the original, but the lighting could be better. I feel like this is something a number of 3D stylized games miss out on for a variety of reasons (mainly hardware/budget/engine limitations I guess), that could improve things considerably.

I assume a SD3 remake like this is going to happen in a few years as well, so hopefully they improve in that area, especially since that game's visuals skewed a little darker.

For this game, it seems to want to retain that "SNES" brightness but because of that it sort of looks a lot like those sorts of youth-oriented top down games that are also in 3D.

I think the plan is probably..

SD3 in this style but 'improved' for the 25th or before 2020 -> new SD entry for PS4/Vita/PC.

 

[theofficefan99]

Every time I look at Dawn of Mana I get sad. That game is still soooooo beautiful to me but I never bought it because of all the questionable design decisions. Like levels resetting every chapter.


As for this game, I wish they tweaked the visuals so it doesn't look like a mobile title, but I'm still supporting this. I want to see a console Mana title.

That explains the iffy reception to it.

"Iffy" is putting it midly. I contemplated buying it for YEARS but I've seen literally maybe 4 or 5 remotely positive opinions of the game. Aside from it just being an action game and only being able to level up to 4, levels reset every stage, the mini map is useless, physics are wonky (and the game relies on physics, since you're supposed to grab objects and knock them into enemies or vice versa for items and upgrades), camera is terrible, and story isn't anything to write home about. But man is it BEAUTIFUL.

 

[Brandon F]

What was the problem with Dawn of Mana anyway? On that note, how was Children of Mana? I really want to enjoy Legend of Mana, but I don't want to play it with a guide either.

So was Legend of Mana tbh.

Yea I never played Dawn myself, but legend is really far removed from the Zelda-esque approach of the early trilogy. Missions are prescripted and linear. The game is closer to a town builder in that your city hub starts empty, but fills out as you do these linear challenges. Farming, crafting, and other nonsense takes up a bulk of the game when you aren't jumping into artifact nodes and doing the straightforward action levels. Music is godly though, but I wasn't a fan of the change.

 

[Astrael]

What was the problem with Dawn of Mana anyway? On that note, how was Children of Mana? I really want to enjoy Legend of Mana, but I don't want to play it with a guide either.

As others have replied, Dawn of Mana's issues were primarily in its growing pains in the transition to 3D and the bizarre decision to reset your character at the start of every chapter so no levels or anything you find carried over. Still, when I saw the first reveal trailer it looked so gorgeous, I grabbed it day one. What a let down

Children of Mana I put the most time in for the "World of Mana" games, it was pretty repetitive once you got the gist of the game but I loved the spritework and kept going just to see more. Unlike Dawn of Mana there was a clear sense of character progress and seeing how your home town changed over the course of the story was neat. The utility of the different weapons in exploration was fun, and you could equip and use two weapon at a time if I recall. It's a good on-the-go game but not something epic feeling, though I personally liked the actual story arc they explored.

As an aside, I wish I could have tolerated Heroes of Mana's RTS gameplay, it seemed to have the most story and was a prequel to Seiken Densetsu 3. But like pretty much all of the World of Mana games it just fell short of its full potential. At least it had a Yoko Shimomura soundtrack.

 

[MrBS]

Watching the trailer immediately gave me flashbacks to the FFIV DS remake that I didn't particularly enjoy despite loving the original. I'd much prefer the switch port to be localised. Welp I hope those who pick this up enjoy it.

 

[Nerrel]

I know many won't agree, but I found the original to be incredibly frustrating to play. I hope this has actual working hit detection, a camera that shows where you're going and sensible hitboxes. Feedback in the original just felt completely broken and ruined the game for me.

Actually I think most fans can agree with that. I love the game, but yeah, sometimes it's a frustrating mess. It'll be interesting to see how far they've gone with the gameplay alterations.

 

[wtd2009]

any word on what's happening with the music? I think getting an HD soundtrack would be almost worth the price alone. this game has some great songs.

 

[Claude Augario]

I think they did what they could with the plan they had mapped out. The game that came before this had no voice and the soundtrack wasn't redone to the extent it is for this. It sounds like they'll improve upon this base into the next remake however which seems like it's inevitable since this will probably sell well enough (and more than Adventures of Mana) for them to begin work on Seiken 3. And with regard to the way it 'looks' over that other game, I think they tried to preserve that top down view for obvious reasons leaving only so many options available for how models and such should look. To me that other game kind of looked like a bad Dark Cloud.

Like already IMO this looks better than Adventures did, and if they do development on Seiken 3, it'll probably improve upon this.

I don't blame the developer for having little to work with. I blame Square Enix for being so tight with their coin purse for anything that's not FF or KH. They're being pretty spotty with the SaGa revivals too.

Dawn is one of the best looking PS2 games.

it more or less is on that level, the overhead view just doesn't do it any favors. granted they did go with the less impressive SD1 remake engine but it's about on par with any ps2 era game with an upres

It's not even close. These screens aren't doing Dawn justice because it had large environments and there was a lot going on in them. The environments in the remake are barebones...they seem like they translated them 1:1 in size and scope and called it a day. The cinematic shots make the flaws that much more apparent.

 

[zeopower6]

I think mostly this is an 'all or nothing' type of deal. Either we got Adventures of Mana in 2D but no remakes of Secret/SD3, or 3D Adventures of Mana with the promise of remakes after thanks to being able to use the assets/base game again with improvements. I prefer the latter since it helps them along in the road to an SD5.

 

[Brandon F]

Yea, I could have sworn I read an interview somewhere when Adventure of Mana released in Japan awhile ago that the plan was to provide the same treatment for the trilogy(Seiken 1-3). I presumed this was just a throwaway comment to help grow launch sales, but it may actually pan out.

 

[zeopower6]

Yea, I could have sworn I read an interview somewhere when Adventure of Mana released in Japan awhile ago that the plan was to provide the same treatment for the trilogy(Seiken 1-3). I presumed this was just a throwaway comment to help grow launch sales, but it may actually pan out.

Yeah, there was the very eye opening interview about 2 years ago about this. Basically every other year, the plan was to put out SD1 -> then SD2 -> SD3 using this as the base.

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/09/1...remakes-if-final-fantasy-adventure-does-well/
This also links to the original Japanese interview too which sheds more light on the SD2/SD3 stuff.

Adventures sold rather well on the Vita with 100,000+ downloads and 0 physical presence so with PS4/PC this will probably do waay more than that.

Timeline will likely be...

2015 Adventures of Mana on Vita/mobile.
2018 Secret of Mana on Vita/PC/PS4... with PS4/PC Adventures beforehand since they were working on that.
2020 (?) Seiken Densetsu 3 on PC/PS4 in time for the 25th anniversary.

 

[ethomaz]

Trophy alone will make me buy this masterpiece day one.

Beat it dozen of times... my brothers and cousin too... over 20 years ago.

My SNES come with Megaman X and I bought Secret of Mana... super profit since day one with my SNES.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

I look forward to SD5

 

[tsundoku]

its just local only

 

[CamHostage]

It sounds like they'll improve upon this base into the next remake however which seems like it's inevitable since this will probably sell well enough (and more than Adventures of Mana) for them to begin work on Seiken 3.

I wouldn't put too much faith in that hope, unfortunately. This is actually the third Mana in this style, we tend to forget the free-to-play Rise of Mana from 2014 (JPN only.)

RISE OF MANA (2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5hzOCQzUJQ

ADVENTURES OF MANA (2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Mu-lqV_BY

SECRET OF MANA (2018)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHjcnOGPhs

There's advancement between them, but maybe not enough to say Square responded to a groundswell of interest? It is what it is despite that they all seemed to do okay and that Adventure's success, coupled with immediate orders on the Mana Collection, should have been more than enough "research" to know how much to spend of Secret of Mana.

Things have for sure gotten better, though. I would have wanted more love and horsepower poured into SoM (it's not my favorite franchise necessarily, but it's one of the games I always wish Square had remade all these years, mostly because the lost CD content and the mangled/cart-strangled localization scream for a "definitive version" of Secret of Mana, and also online multiplayer in SoM seemed like a no-brainer for a nice downloadable game when that business was hot,) but the engine and budget has evolved that this is enough to sell me despite my reservations, and if it plays well then that'll go a long way.

The only other Mana redesign I'm aware of is the Spelunker Z / Seiken Densetsu 2 DLC, and that wouldn't have gone over either...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwODoT4BF4

I don't blame the developer for having little to work with. I blame Square Enix for being so tight with their coin purse for anything that's not FF or KH. They're being pretty spotty with the SaGa revivals too.

Right, neither Revenant SaGa and SaGa: Scarlet Grace are lookers. We can also include Tokyo RPG Factory's works in there if we want to. Not sure why Square is so stingy, I can understand not putting money into SaGa (it's a troubled franchise, better they let inspiration come where it can on that one,) but Mana is a brand that has endured and could be built upon (Square likes to reinvent all the time, but a back-to-basics Mana game would be something it hasn't done in ages; just do some things people flat-out like and then you can do crazy ideas and twist up franchises afterwards) and just in general it'd be better to have other properties hopping. I'm not expecting them to break the bank on every product they produce, but Square Enix is letting a negative reputation build.

 

[Verano]

I hope it stays exclusive to playstation and pc forcing SoM fans to buy a ps4 or use Windows for it. 😌

 

[zeopower6]

I hope it stays exclusive to playstation and pc forcing SoM fans to buy a ps4 or use Windows for it. 😌

I think it will. Probably why the "collection" is what ended up on Switch and this is on PS4/Vita/PC.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

I think it will. Probably why the "collection" is what ended up on Switch and this is on PS4/Vita/PC.

While I am still hoping for the collection to make it to America. I am EXTREMELY happy that this exists and the original is on the SNES classic.

Does this support up to three players?

 

[tsundoku]

is this local only or what

 

[zeopower6]

is this local only or what

According to the Japanese page, multiplayer is "offline multiplay" for PS4/PC and "ad hoc" for Vita.

While I am still hoping for the collection to make it to America. I am EXTREMELY happy that this exists and the original is on the SNES classic.

Does this support up to three players?

Yes, it is 1-3 players.

 

[Psxphile]

I wonder if the inevitable Seiken 3 remake will also be 3-player.
I also wonder what they plan to call it when localized.

 

[zeopower6]

I wonder if the inevitable Seiken 3 remake will also be 3-player.
I also wonder what they plan to call it when localized.

Yeah... there was never an official English title so should it get localized, not sure what it could be.

Adventures -> Secret - > ????.

A lot of people seem to be hot on Secret of Mana 2. Knowing that they don't really consider it a direct sequel, it'll probably have a brand new English title, at least I think that would be preferable over just calling it SoM2.

 

[Nick Van Excel]

What was the problem with Dawn of Mana anyway? On that note, how was Children of Mana? I really want to enjoy Legend of Mana, but I don't want to play it with a guide either.

Legend of Mana is almost impossible to get through without a guide. It would take an ungodly amount of time without guides/maps

 

[Silurus]

Was a little disappointed I would have to get on PS4 and not Switch until I saw the style for the GFX they have gone with.

Will give it a miss and hope for a localisation of the Switch collection.

 

[Falcs]

No way!!!! Are you serious??

Spoiler

Damn.. That is just too cute for me..

 

[PhilipDoesMatter]

Just a warn to play-it-on-easy players. You are probably not passing through the tiger boss.